Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's worth delving into the issues cited in their lettter - it's increased costs and red tape that are making them less productive and viable.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sending a container load of goods by sea, may only involve internal transport. Businesses in the UK have been used to taking the goods by lorry across the EU without issue, this is what the simple view of changes is ignoring. When paperwork is needed not only for goods, but the vehicle and driver and VAT and duty, it ends up with massive amounts of bureaucracy.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You can't vaccine-wash away the issues faced by hard-working British business men and women, Seph. Talk of Remain arguments is poppycock, we left the EU and you need to move on and bat for British business. Making a success of Brexit doesn't mean pretending these issues don't exist.

Countries do most of their trade with those closest to them - as British business has repeatedly pointed out.

This is due to the gravity of trade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravit...de#:~:text=The gravity model of international trade in international,evidence that trade tends to fall with distance."

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

One problem is with food products is that they are ready now, you often can't just wait to sort things out. The lead times are also less easy to vary than "dead stuff".

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55904189

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And there is this

UK border chaos as trucks get waivers - trade rules SCRAPPED in angry scenes
TENSIONS over the Northern Ireland protocol have escalated into "troubling" threats to trade staff, forcing post-Brexit food checks at Larne and Belfast ports to be suspended over safety concerns.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...in-poots-daera

The graffiti objected to the perceived "Irish Sea border" imposed as a result of terms of the Brexit trade deal with the EU.

Ulster loyalists, who oppose any divergence between Northern Ireland the rest of the UK, are believed to be behind the messages.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm not sure what forum opinion has got to do with anything. Should we ignore news stories that don't fit a positive agenda or try and make things work better for the good of the country?

How short-term is short term? It's now over a month since we started operating according to the terms of the trade agreement and things don't look fantastic. That's even with EU imports not being checked, that only happens in July.

Seafood company Samways explains that the issues are more fundamental than just teething troubles. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-55847259

And short-term seems to be permanent if you're a shellfisherman. EU shellfish import ban permanent, UK fishing industry told

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Highlighting issues is not saying it’s a disaster -you’re putting forward a straw man argument that no one has stated.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:tu:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

These straw men get everywhere on here !

Back in the real world firms are seeing increased costs. E.g. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-55894650
The fall out is coming which is going to cost jobs.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They do seem to get about more than the Elf on the Shelf after the parents have had a few dry sherries. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I believe its the default reply when someone cant come up with anything better. :sleep:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Someone on another forum from NI, has highlighted that something as simple as getting a bike delivered from the mainland is proving to be a nightmare. Whilst on the other side, getting potatoes sent to the mainland from NI is also a problem, not helped by requiring fixed transport days (for paperwork), at a time of year when weather can affect this. Old system allowed for flexibility round the weather.

Is this also a straw man?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I am not saying that there aren't any problems, in fact from your post I am sure there are, but ...I have just recieved my regular bulky order from a large supplier located in Belfast, NI. Ordered yesterday morning with a 48hr delivery service via Royal Mail which shows that not all trade to and from NI is effected.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I really do sympathise with groups being badly affected by this. As I've said before if you have "live" product you can't just keep on shelf for a while to sort it all out.

We could help by sorting out tax on smaller purchases back to the EU status i.e. pay tax at point of purchase at rate and to country of purchase. It's not like we were collecting the tax anyway unless we looked at the rebate in that way.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No one has stated all trade is affected. Quite what is affected, is coming to light day by day.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Which is why I posted!!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wonder how the Royal Mail would manage potatoes?

Just a shame it is so complicated to send stuff to NI.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yup. it would be a tad difficult. :D My hope is that with some areas such as the Royal Mail still operating as normal others will get sorted out quickly.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This could help wth the cross border issues, giving people and businesses time to adapt.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-idUSKBN2A312V

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's a bit behind the times as there is more happening.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/...194705-brexit/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Useful to know - thanks for the update. :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Meeting just finished. No conclusions on the requested teo-year extension yet.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So a virulently Anti-EU correspondent in a virulently Anti-EU newspaper says something Anti-EU?

<shocked face>... ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The UK has done incredibly well in procurement/distribution of the vaccines.However, that success doesn't eclipse the significant issues that we're currently seeing, and potentially may worsen as things such as warehouse stocks fall after their current stockpiles dwindle.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The EU proposed to use Article 16 in a way not permitted by the treaty. The hardship to be alleviated by that mechanism must already be very evident, and a notice period must be observed. The EU attempted to invoke it on the basis of theoretical attempts to avoid an export ban that had not occurred and had not caused any hardship. They also seemed to think it could be brought into force instantly.

We, on the other hand, if we do choose to go down that route, must do so fully observing the letter and the spirit of the rules.

BTW who is Guymin?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Government I guess

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some good news that Andrew may not post.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/new...-home-19759455

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

European chocolate is typically made using only cocoa butter for fat content. British everyday chocolate (dairy milk, galaxy and sweet bars derived from them) use a mix of cocoa butter and other vegetable fats with the pure cocoa butter recipes reserved for premium products.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Boris Johnson said he'd never agree to an Irish Sea border only to agree to one but to deny its existence. He now acknowledges there is one but says there mustn't be one. :confused:

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/po...checks-3123306

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's daft for anyone to escalate things in Northern Ireland as some in the EU found out very quickly. The DUP is waking up to the Irish sea border being a reality and I suspect time is the only cure here.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Much of the detail of the NI Protocol was left to be decided by the Joint Committee. Any complications will be because the EU is being difficult, as usual.

IIRC The supermarkets said there would be no problems shipping their stock from GB to NI.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The supermarkets had tons of problems but this will be overcome by sourcing from Ireland and other EU countries instead of Great Britain.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55575988
https://www.newfoodmagazine.com/news...and-shortages/

Some foods can no longer be exported from NI to GB.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55818519

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They had offered to extend the implementation period for another two years to prevent problems like this arising but Boris said there was no need and everything was ready. Is Boris wrong or right? :confused:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This is where it gets stupid. The eels can't be exported to Billingsgate because of an export ban to countries outside the EU.

Then

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And how would that have alleviated anything?:rolleyes:

It would've involved the WHOLE of the WA being extended. The 2 year offer was made in April of last year. As I have to keep pointing out, the failure of the Joint Committee(ie the EU) is the biggest problem. They were the ones responsible for the detail of how things were going to be implemented.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yep, a particularly scathing David Allen Green blog on this subject was published yesterday - Four examples of Prime Ministerial power – how Boris Johnson in fact ‘did everything he could’ for there to be a trade barrier down the Irish Sea

As always, you have to ask if the deal is so bad, is the Government;

• Incompetent
• Negligent
• Malicious

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Per Seph's post - it would allow time for the appropriate software to be written and tested.

Stating something erroneous multiple times does not make it correct. ;)

---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 ----------

A great blogger.

I think the issue is that the government was fixated on a deadline of 31st December 2020 to end the transition period as it would feel like failure to have another extension.
So, it's more a case of sign now, we'll sort the mess out afterwards but the electorate and history books will show we started the new trade deal on 1st January 2021.
A long way of saying a) Incompetent but probably competent in keeping the electorate on board ie survival which is most government's aim.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ah yes, Mr "Will the supermarkets buy the shellfish the EU will not take and work with our fishing industry to sell it to U.K. buyers?"...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well, this guy obviously didn't get the memo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55939857

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I have a friend in Ireland that says it's impacting Ireland, with plenty of supermarkets with empty shelves and most of the goods to Ireland come through the UK.

Maybe R.o.I should have worked a bit harder with the UK to impress upon the EU to avoid these Irish Sea issues.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

2016. Let's leave the EU to get rid of Brussels bureaucracy tying up business.

2021. 71 pages of paperwork for a single lorry of fish
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55887043


---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:28 ----------

If the UK had accepted an extension to the withdrawal agreement but insisted a deal was signed this year then this issue could have been reduced significantly.. Unfortunately, the UK government decided against this and RofI can't compel an extension.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'll raise a glass to that:beer:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The EU shows it true colours by enforcing its rules for third country imports into the single market? People didn't want regulatory alignment with EU rules so this is what we get.

It's the price of that sweet, sweet sovereignty

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is Vaccinegate destined to supercede WWII in Brexit discussions? :D

There's no plans to get an extension to the rules of fish to mainland Europe. That's done and dusted. A work-around might be to land the fish in continental ports but this is no good unless you're near to the Continent.

It's the island of Ireland trade situation that Michael Gove is now hoping for an extension on.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If the EU were treating us differently from other third countries, then I think we would have reason to complain but if not, what's the issue? If the EU showing their 'true colours' in applying their rules, that certainly not be a surprise, the EU is a rules based organisation Not everyone seems to think that, they think we are being punished by the EU.

I think there has been a degree of not recognising what the SM and CU gave us and that has only become clear now we are not part of it. It's the non-tariff barriers that are causing the pain. I'm not sure what the answer is - do we concentrate on customers with lower non-tariff barriers/standards going forward?

The whole article 16 thing was a mess, I agree. Trade heads got involved without consulting on the political ramifications. Happily it was nipped in the bud before it was enacted. I have read a good explainer as to why it happened by Tony Connelly, an Irish journalist and it was due to the fudge that is the Irish agreement and I kind of get it but the response, in Tony Connellys word himself 'was a horrendously disproportionate solution, sledgehammer meet nut etc, and we've seen the fall out'

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The whole point of any deal is to avoid everything that is required by everybody else that is not part of any deal. Either we have some sort of a deal with the EU, or we're to be treated as anybody else. Which is it?

Any difficulties and complications are at the behest of the EU, especially Ireland strangely enough.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Agreed. At the moment we're seeing people struggling to rationalise the logical consequences of what leaving the EU actually means. Some may have read in their newspapers that EU membership generates lots of red tape. So as EU countries are now treating us correctly as a third country, how can they rationalise such behaviour. Perhaps as the EU perhaps being difficult or perhaps even punishing us?

People have grown used to the lack of bureacuracy that being in the single market and customs union provided. They don't realise it was one of the benefits of EU membership and not something a country automatically enjoys.

I think technology has its part to play but the extra costs and delays generated are damaging. There's also the competitiveness factor. If you're based in France, you can grow outside your home country quite easily just by expanding your existing infrastructure. If in the UK, once you want to export to Europe, things go up a notch and you might be looking for EU warehousing. The long-term consequence could see smaller UK companies being picked off by European ones as the UK companies have decided against that bigger leap.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Always looking for the positives eh, Andrew.;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Reality doesn’t care about anyone’s politics...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Always. Which is why I was the first to post the positive news story about Nissan.
But sometimes negative. Like when I posted the damning - against the EU - La Republica interview with the head of AstraZenecca.
But we need to acknowledge that for a lot of smaller businesses trying to trade with the EU at the moment can be tough. That's due to our third country status. No amount of back-slapping over vaccine procurement changes this.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well said...:clap::clap:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What is the EUs behaviour on Article 16? At worst, they seem to have threatened to trigger it but didn't. How is this any different to what Boris has previously done and continues to do?

I think there is some confusion in the general media over what actually happened. Even if you don't subscribe to the explanation that it was a draft paper that was never enacted, triggering Article 16 requires them to notify the joint committee immediately and a week long period of consultation to be initiated.

We are not in a week long period of consultation and as far as I know, the joint committee were never informed so it was never triggered.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Discussion of what technically did or did not happen is at best red herring, and at worse a rather craven exercise in apologetics. If you want to understand the EU’s intent, and its likely consequences, simply look first at the reaction of the Irish government, whose interests the EU is supposed to have at heart, then add to it the reactions of the British government and every political party in Northern Ireland, unionist and republican alike.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The regulation was actually issued. How could it be a draft paper when it was due to start to be enforced the next day? Because it didn't start until the 30th, they had the chance to stop it from being enforced. Still leaves the matter of having to inform the Joint Committee, and the one month's notice required.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is it though? I recognise and understand the reaction to the suggestion that they pull the kind of stunt they were obviously intending to, at some level. The reaction of all other parties to the agreement makes it obvious it would have been a bad move on their part. I'm simply question what the actually did.

I'm not sure it was. Having read the actual text of the Article and supporting Annex 7 which details the actual procedure to be followed (it's disturbingly short), there is no take-backsies clause and it states that the initiating party will "without delay notify the <other party>" and "immediately notify enter into consultations". None of this is happening. I've no idea where your quoted text is from. Link?

[QUOTE=Sephiroth;36069658]I've no idea why you let yourself come across as a sort
of EU defender.

What the EU tried to do is well reported, e.g.: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...diplomatic-row

They didn't indicate that they would initiate the joint committee process and gave the clear impression that they weren't going to but intended acting unlawfully in terms of the Trade Deal./rish Protocol.

We all know this and you're the only member of the forum so far to appear to defend the EU's high handed action that they were forced to withdraw.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm questioning. Depending on your choice of news source, they either triggered it and rowed back (not provided for in the annex) or threatened it, whether deliberately or accidentally through a lesser bod not realising the implications. They can't not initiate the joint committee process because, at least from my reading, that is the mechanism for triggering Article 16. IANAL though and happy to be corrected. I'm not defending their actions or intent, just trying to determine what they actually did and from my reading of the actual Article 16 and Annex 7, I don't think they did.

For reference, the Protocol can be read in full here.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

[QUOTE=Paddy1;36069677]Is it though? I recognise and understand the reaction to the suggestion that they pull the kind of stunt they were obviously intending to, at some level. The reaction of all other parties to the agreement makes it obvious it would have been a bad move on their part. I'm simply question what the actually did.



I'm not sure it was. Having read the actual text of the Article and supporting Annex 7 which details the actual procedure to be followed (it's disturbingly short), there is no take-backsies clause and it states that the initiating party will "without delay notify the <other party>" and "immediately notify enter into consultations". None of this is happening. I've no idea where your quoted text is from. Link?

Where else did you think I "cut and pasted" it from in my post #251?
I also highlighted "If the application of this Protocol leads to ...", meaning any effect has to already be happening and will continue to happen. It's not meant to be for unlikely hypotheticals. It's not a case of "might lead to...".

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Did notification take place? Is there a consultation?


Considering is a very ambiguous word here. Either side will have positions that they might take. I don't think that means they have to inform the other party until that position becomes policy. Boris is considering exactly the same thing. Has he notified the EU?


Yes, they put their position up on their web site, as they do with lots of documentation that has been drafted. They don't just post policy. There's no doubt it was a consideration to trigger Article 16 but no action has taken place to initiate it.






There is no process in progress that can currently lead to anything as there is no consultation taking place.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The impact of the protocol itself is required to have had an actual impact, not article 16 in isolation. Article 16 does not say "If the application of this Article leads to", it says "Protocol". The protocol is meant to enable free flow of goods between NI and Ireland, so Article 16 could be read in this instance as "If the free flow of goods between NI and Ireland leads to the movement of EU-owned vaccines moving to NI". Again, the "leads to" states that it must already be happening, it does not say "might lead to". Article 16 cannot be invoked purely on the basis of a hypothetical example, and an unlikely one at that.
The much more likely hypothetical example, would've been that UK vaccines would've been taken from NI to Ireland.
The regulation is headed "Brussels, 29.1.2021 , SEC(2021) 71 final".
The regulation wasn't just about invoking article 16, but the whole control of vaccines to other countries, and not just the UK.
Action was taken to start it. How else were the EU countries that were going to have to implement it, starting within a matter of hours. They were going to have to implement it on the 30th, and the regulation was issued on the 29th.
The invoking of Article 16 was never publicly raised beforehand, only the possibility of tracking and control of vaccine shipments.

Nobody at all was talking about invoking article 16 in connection with vaccines. That was quickly shut down after people found out about it after the regulation was actually issued. Nobody was able to shut it down before the 29th.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As I replied to @Sephiroth, I'm not defending the actions or intentions of the EU regarding the movement of vaccines. I find the idea of cutting off the supply of medical supplies to anyone obnoxious.

I was simply trying to determine whether or not Article 16 had been triggered and it seems you're saying it wasn't.

The reason I was trying to nail this down is that a lot of the media state, or at least give the impression, that they did trigger it and for instance, therefore it's now perfectly acceptable for Boris to trigger it. It's the whole basis of the DUPs Trigger Article 16 petition that's doing the rounds.

The misinformation around, particularly on our local media and social media is astounding at the minute.

Edit to add, I did misread your quote which stated "protocol leads to" so thank you for the correction.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The invoking of article 16 was part and parcel of the same regulation to track and control movement of vaccines.
Guardian
BBC
RTE
Irish Post
Irish Times
The Journal(Ireland)
4 "triggers" and 2 "invokes" from 6 different non-anti-EU sources. They seem to be in agreement that it was in force and due to be implemented the next day, ie just hours away.

Any invoking of article 16 by the UK, wouldn't be based upon being anti-EU, but of helping NI and indeed Ireland itself.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There is a huge loophole at the moment when it comes to exporting pharmaceuticals and that is the NI situation. As it stands, from the 1st January, you can't export certain drugs to the EEA. The list of drugs is based on exceptional need in the UK and can be seen here. Interestingly, COVID vaccines aren't on the list..

BUT

Northern Ireland is part of the EU Single Market for all intents and purposes so, in theory, you could send UK restricted medicines to Northern Ireland and then freely ship them to the EU

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's what I am not clear on. Before 1st January, exports outside of the single market were restricted for listed drugs. Now they are restricted from export from the UK. However, is there a restriction from Northern Ireland to the Republic?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There can't be a restriction from NI to the Republic as there's no physical border and therefore checks to ensure such restrictions are being applied.

---------- Post added at 12:42 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

This does not make pleasant reading. I hope Michael Gove steps up to the challenge.
https://news.sky.com/story/exports-t...rexit-12211169

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You'd expect imports from the EU to be down to but I bet they're not or it's negligible at best

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

EU exports to the UK are not being checked until July.

There is also now a requirement for British exporters to have a named EU-based importer on their goods. This only comes into effect the other way round on 1st January 2022 for EU countries exporting to the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So they're not down then...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

UK exports to the EU are down 68%.

What may not be down are the imports from the EU to the UK..

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Port of Dover would disagree.

http://www.doverport.co.uk/about/new...the-por/13575/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well, according to the report, the lorries from the EU normally return with British goods on their return trips. However, 65-75% of the lorries are returning with nothing! So ports will see the same numbers of lorries but fewer will be carrying goods in both directions.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Unless you’re extrapolating the traffic from
Dover to be representative all ports (which is what the article refers to) then I fail to see the relevance ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Dover is the main conduit for EU exports/imports.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A bit more than temporary disruption. This is not the levelling up the north of England was promised. The owner tells it straight. "“All we have had is bullshit from the government, promises that haven’t been kept."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-forced-close

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Like many people i like lobster and i love cheap lobster. have these people thought of the Uk market ie sell it cheep at home create a market for it..


These folk have right idea https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...ames-x80q6kxcg

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sell it cheap and you make a loss. And the UK market is smaller than the EU. They will have thought about these things over many sleepless nights. It's a big deal for a local family business to make its staff redundant.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You can't ask for max price when there is no market for your fish, you need to find new markets and price accordingly.
Plus we are in lockdown so restaurants are shut.