Re: Funding of the BBC
 

The BBC will continue to drag it's heels as long as possible to preserve the licence fee but sooner or later it will disappear. The reason it will disappear is because as the older generation dies off the younger generation will not tolerate it. They will pay for streaming services and maybe Sky or Virgin but will like many of us are now question why the BBC should be privileged and get funded compulsory. I believe eventually the BBC will find themselves by adverts and part subscription. Just my opinion and I don't think it will happen anytime soon.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Most of the 'younger generation' I know watch everything on a 4.7" screen while walking around.

They're not interested in BBC, ITV etc, it's all netflix & youtube, so best of luck chasing a license fee for using a mobile phone ;)

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

I agree, sam. It's just a matter of time before there is a public outcry over this. The only surprising thing is that there are still people who believe the licence fee is here to stay.

I mean, why??!

Oh, yes, I remember, because nothing will ever change. Yeah, right!

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Yeah as I said it will go eventually and as you said their will be a public outcry. I could even see people refusing to pay like with the Poll tax and forcing the Beebs hand.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Love when you quote a position that no one has put forward - if only there was a name for that type of fallacy?

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Exactly. The advent of new technology has made the TVL difficult to enforce. To legally watch TV on a mobile device, you need to:

- Have a valid TVL at your home address.

- Be in an establishment that has a valid TVL eg a friends house or a pub.

- Watching it with someone who has a valid TVL.

I imagine that most won't be breaking the law, but if they aren't, as it stands, they will never be caught.

Each morning TVL inspectors receive a list of unlicensed addresses to visit and can only visit these addresses. They can't visit a house that they notice is now occupied or a new build that has been occupied (though they can pass these details on to their manager).

They most certainly can't approach an individual in the street who is watching live TV or the iPlayer to check if they are covered by a TVL.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

They visited me once a few years ago, had a look and even though I gave them permission to check my PC declined and admitted I don't need one (I don't watch live UK TV).

Since then I have recieved numerous begging letters from Bristol, always answered (online) "You are welcome to come and inspect anytime".

I'm still waiting, even if they do they will come to the same conclusion.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

I think you may have missed rather a lot of posts, Hugh. Either that, or your memory is on the blink!:D

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

People have said they like the BBC, and don’t mind paying the licence - that is not the same as saying people have said "nothing will ever change"...

Nice try, though...

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Maybe, just maybe this? ;)
https://youtu.be/hfil34ayaEU

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

can you name them?

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

There's a few named here ;):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lzS8yW8INA

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Until someone devises a way of funding the BBC that's not through advertising or subscription, I can't see things changing under the current government and BBC Director General.
The middle way seems to be as per now - contain costs and maximise content sales which should lead to sub-inflation rises in the licence fee. Then make a bit of noise about other solutions whilst not rocking the boat too much for BBC 2/4, Radio 3/4-loving Conservative voters. (Deliberate cliches)

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Face it, Hugh. While we all acknowledge that some people want to continue paying the licence, a growing number are protesting about it, and that includes on this forum.

The responses you get from some contributors indicates that they do indeed think nothing will change, whether it's the TV licence, Amazon landing more Premiership rights, broadcast TV channels closing down and moving to IPTV, you name it.

Mind you, some are just trolling or on a wind-up, that much is acknowledged.

---------- Post added at 11:01 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

But if all the other channels eventually move to IPTV, what would be the point of dear old Auntie broadcasting alone on terrestrial? Once everyone knows where the bulk of the channels are, that's where they will migrate.

It's nothing to do with 'Conservative voters'. There are many people from all walks of life, including the poor, who do not want their money used for a service they don't want, and it's pure selfishness that motivates people who do watch and listen to the BBC that they should insist that everyone pays just so the cost to them is subsidised in this way.

---------- Post added at 11:05 ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 ----------

It won't be too long before this becomes a hot election issue. That'll make the BBC sit up and take notice.

I'm disappointed with Davie for attempting to rule out the abandoning of the licence fee, although you can't blame him when it is so lucrative for the organisation he is in charge of. We need to charge up those electric prods!

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

I've never mentioned that the BBC would be the last man standing on DTT so not sure why that element has been introduced. There's enough threads on the forum about that topic as it is!
The mention of Conservative voters should be obvious - they elected the current government so it won't seek to upset them unnecessarily. And you can be poor and still vote Conservative. It's not pure selfishness that insists upon this universal funding model, the new DG has explained why this is the case.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Where is your evidence that Labour voters want the licence fee retained? I was certainly not aware that they were all BBC fans - in fact, my observations are that they tend to steer away from the BBC in favour of the commercial channels.

I have mentioned DTT because, as you know, it is my staunch view that the commercial stations will ultimately abandon that means of broadcasting. It is entirely relevant to my argument.

Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 

It’d also rely on people abandoning their well established TV packages with Sky and Virgin. Rumours of the demise of the licence fee is vastly overrated.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

I've not mentioned Labour voters.
Your staunch view on linear broadcasting was that its days are numbered. There was never a PS about the BBC in there.
In terms of DTT, DTH and even DTC, I can envisage these means of delivering linear channels being superceded in the future.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 

They're already trying to get it changed so tvl will be needed for the likes of Netflix etc.

Another mentioned option is tvl becomes part of the council tax.

Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 

Police and fire authorities are precepting authorities that instruct local councils to collect money for them. Your local council adds this to your council tax bill - in England and Wales you should be able to see it itemised on your bill. It’s done slightly different in Scotland, but here the water and sewage is still in public ownership so you do still see that itemised on the council tax bill.

It would be difficult politically to put a BBC precept on every council tax bill across the UK, however wholesale reform, creating a broadcasting authority with broad responsibility for public tv, radio and communications infrastructure and allowing that to set precepts might work. Public service broadcasters might then bid for funding from this authority for money to fulfil their PSB obligations, with the lion’s share going to the BBC but cash also finding its way to ITV to ensure the continuation of programming that has social value but is increasingly difficult to justify financially.

The only realistic chance we have of switching our comms infrastructure entirely onto IP and related technologies as an alternative to satellite and terrestrial masts is if there’s some kind of public intervention because we are way short of the necessary bandwidth at present, not to mention the raw electrical power needed to run it.

Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 

Absolutely mate but the boffins think otherwise https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/new-h...place-22592503

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Chris's and Legendkiller's posts both point to inclusion in the Council tax. I think this is more likely than a move to a subscription service and is a cost-effective means of collection which also allows those on benefits an easy qay to a free TV licence.

Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 

Not really ... Tony Hall agrees a universal precept is a means of doing it, nothing I’ve said above contradicts that. I’m thinking more along the lines of which authority should collect and distribute money collected in that way. I think it would be politically awkward for the BBC to do so directly.

Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 

I agree.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

No you mentioned Conservative voters, implying that Labour voters actually had a different view of the BBC. You are trying to make this political when actually a growing number of people from different political points of view are questioning why, in this day and age, a licence fee is still appropriate.

---------- Post added at 08:51 ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 ----------

This still does not solve the problem. The money goes primarily to the BBC, which is losing audience share. A tax still means people are paying for a medium they don't use and a big, bureaucratic and wasteful operation is hampering commercial operators.

Anyway, what prospect is there that a Conservative government will simply perpetuate this problem rather than solve it? They've been considering a subscription model for years and it's only the state of technology that's prevented it from happening so far.

It will be down to the government to decide in the end, not Mr Davie, who seems to be turning native already.

---------- Post added at 08:55 ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 ----------

That's just a fudge. Taxation should not be used to fund TV channels, radio stations and media websites. Taxation should be reserved for essential spending, such as education and social care. The government needs to stop using the taxpayer as a cash cow and let us spend more of our money how we want.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Wrong in multiple ways. The reason I mentioned Conservative Party is that they are the ones in power and unlikely to act against the interests of those who voted for them.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Would you mind posting that in the Brexit Transition thread, where you seem to think the opposite? :D

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

You cannot lump all people over a certain age together like that as if they all have the same view! Ask Rupert Murdoch!! His view would be the same as it's always been even if he benefited from a free liicence by living in this country!

The Labour Party took the view that the voters in their heartlands only had eyes for them, and look how wrong they were! Live and learn, Andrew, and do something about your democratic instincts, please.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

I'll open a hypocrisy thread if it helps :)

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Not at all - it’s arguably just a more honest way of reflecting what is already the case. The licence fee is supposed to be universal, insofar as everyone who has a TV has a licence. The licence fee funds the BBC because the BBC provides the marker for quality public service broadcasting, serving both mass and niche audiences, across TV, radio and web. Parliament has repeatedly determined that this is a public good, worthy of funding by public means, by regular renewal of the BBC’s charter.

Regardless of how the money is spent, or by whom, the licence fee simply is not a simple subscription to the BBC. It never has been. To hold that it is, simply hinders understanding of why the BBC is not ever going to disappear behind a subscription paywall. In return for being funded this way the BBC is obliged to fulfil charter obligations that ensure a broad public service and also prevent the other commercial operators from pursuing a race to the bottom, chasing only mass audiences and serving them content made as cheaply as possible. (If you think this is fanciful, try visiting the USA and watching what’s actually on their free-to-air tv services on a weekday evening. It’s appalling.).

A thing does not have to be equally virtuous as a hospital in order to be worthy of public funding. We fund libraries out of council tax; national museums are funded by central government tax funds. This is the category the BBC has been put in by parliament’s repeated renewal of the BBC charter. Changes in technology may now mean the licence fee mechanism is no longer fit for purpose but it does not follow that the concept of publicly funded, public service broadcasting is no longer fit for purpose. A different means of collecting public funds may be required, and a precept on council tax is a way of doing it.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Fair cop, I almost added except Brexit obviously. :D

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

A great post.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

So instead the idea is that the taxpayer subsidies the BBC even more? Councils don't receive no money at all from those on benefits, they receive it from central government instead.
Council tax levels vary across the country, how would that be factored in?
You can be hauled up before magistrates for non-payment of council tax, so what happens when this is included?
Councils are the ones chasing the debts.

It would seem the Germans have a TV licence system. It is NOT included in their property tax.
Link.
Link
So apart from the discounts, what is meant to be that great about the German system? :confused:

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

The BBC is getting better on the bias front but still takes a consumer understanding of business affairs too often.
In terms of wokeness, I think you'd need to substantiate your claim of grating with the population at large rather than a quick poll down the local Waitrose.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Maybe it's me, but where is Chris advocating the German system?

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Precepting through council tax raises the intriguing possibility of free tv as a benefit for those on low incomes. That could be a good thing.

I’d also encourage you to look at your annual council tax bill and try to get a handle on how precepting works. You should see there an amount requested from your fire and police authorities. If your local district council is not a unitary authority (I.e. you also have a county council) then you will see a precept from the county as well. If the BBC were to become a precepting authority, then your contribution to them would simply become another line on your council tax bill. Note that the amount your fire and police authorities ask for is not connected to the council’s own funding requirements in any way. There is therefore no need for a broadcasting precept to vary from council area to council area. Council tax bills vary from place to place largely because of decisions taken by the council.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Never said he did.:confused:
The notion has been raised of adding to the council tax, and "The Mirror" article mentions the German Property Tax as an example of how it could work.
Link

I did some research to see how it is supposed to work in Germany, only to find that isn't the system they use. There is no connection between the German household tax and their equivalent of the TV licence. In Germany, you have to register where you live. That forms the basis for receiving the bill. It is more obligatory than the UK TV Licence. In Germany there is no link between the amount of household tax paid and the amount charged for the "TV Licence". In Germany you are still chased for non-payment.


The only real difference appears to be establishing liability to pay. In the UK, its gone from owning broadcast receiving equipment, and become more complicated by online services. People complain enough about being asked to pay when they "don't watch the BBC". In that sense. the German system is worse, as far as the complainers are concerned.



All in all, not much of a "sea-change" with the German system.

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------

Why does the Austrian version vary depending on where you live? If it's linked to property values, then it would automatically vary according to where you live.

Would still mean the council were responsible for collecting the TV licence debt.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Dude ... this is where you come unstuck, just pasting endless links to other sites and expecting other people to make inferences and draw conclusions for you. What the merry heck has Austria got to do with anything? And why is it my job to answer that for you?

We're a sovereign state and we can set up our tax affairs any way we like. If we want to create a Public Broadcasting Authority to precept district councils to collect the same amount of money from every household in the UK, then we can. Equally, if we think it's better for it to reflect ability to pay, we can tap in to the council tax banding mechanism. It's for us to decide.

Your point about who has to collect the debt is neither here nor there, seeing as the council is already collecting fire and police authority debt (in England and Wales) and water/sewage company debt (in Scotland). The council would still have to go through the same process even without any precepts because the vast bulk of the debt arises from the single largest figure on the bill, which is their own council tax.

Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 

Ah yeah i see what you mean now, totally agree with you.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

The complaints commonly fielded include, "not watching the BBC" and being chased for non-payment. How does the BBC's DG claim about the German household tax fit in with that?
People currently dodge and are chased over council tax.
Link

Not seeing anywhere in Europe where the council are responsible for administering and collecting the "TV Licence". Simply not their responsibility.
Just pointing that adding to Council Tax doesn't solve the main complaints about the current system, and is far from being a viable solution.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Again ... you're asking me to explain and defend other people's practices and opinions. Respectfully I point out that's your task, not mine.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

So you didn't say this in post #324?
And this in #327?
post #335.
Pointing out that it doesn't address the main complaints about the current system, and that no other European country(including Germany) use councils to collect it, is perfectly valid.

At least, when the question arose about the German household tax, I asked the question and did the research for, "how does it work", only to find it has no connection at all. It is the German system of registering your address that has any connection. In the UK, people often don't register a change of address to any authorities. Eg Somebody can be chased for council tax at their old address, because they haven't told the council they've moved out, and the new occupant hasn't told them they've moved in.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Again ... what’s your point? All I’m seeing is you apparently suggesting we can only pick a carbon copy of something done in some other country already. But you’re so fond of massive lists of links and quotes it’s phenomenally hard to understand what you’re driving at.

It is possible for us -as we are a sovereign state with power to legislate over our tax system - to put a precept on council tax that collects the same amount of money from every household in the U.K. it just is. Nothing done in any other country affects that in any way.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Chris's proposal makes sense to me and I'm not fussed by what our central European friends do.
The only obvious downside is that opposition parties could put charts and slogans in their election materials to state "under X party council tax has risen by X% during their term"

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

It will never be sorted out, because, for some people*, unless the BBC totally agrees with and supports what their viewpoint is (and by corollary doesn’t show anything that disagrees with their viewpoint), it will be seen as "biased".

*this applies to all parts of the political spectrum

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Over 90% of the funding goes to the BBC. We can debate how the remaining 10% is raised.

Once again, I don't think anyone on here has suggested that the BBC is abolished. But we want to choose whether or not as individuals we pay for it.

I certainly would, and so would most others. But why should those who don't want it pay? That is the question.

I don't buy the 'quality assurance' angle, particularly when you look at all the junk you can find on there as well as the better stuff. If that's what people want, they will be prepared to pay for it.

I'm afraid I don't believe in the Nanny State. Maybe we should have a referendum on it!

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

I'm sorry but I don't agree. What's the point of scrapping the TV license only to slap the cost onto another tax we all have to pay? That is just creative accounting and also shifts a tax burden onto those who genuinely do not have to pay for a TV license at present.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Sell it.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Yes, and it doesn't address the argument that some people don't use these entertainment services. It is fundamentally unfair, and the Corporation also has an in-built advantage against its commercial rivals with the shedloads of money it gets from the licence fee.

I really don't see the logic of applying a national tax through the council tax, which by its very nature, is for local needs.

---------- Post added at 15:19 ---------- Previous post was at 15:15 ----------

You are twisting it. The bias can be seen on programmes like 'Question Time', where those with opinions towards the right and towards Brexit are sneered at and cut off, whereas those to the left are allowed to drone on without interruption.

If you think that's balanced.....!

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

If it's balanced in remains favour he'll be happy;)

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

We are all Leavers now, but that doesn’t mean the Government shouldn’t be held to account for pushing through the WA Bill this year, only allowing 3 days debate on it, saying it was "an oven ready deal", and then complain later it wasn’t what they wanted.

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Surely, the expectation, as included in the political declaration, was that there would be a no-tariff trade deal. The government is getting the impression the EU may take the surprising decision to renege on that. So the government is simply adjusting to accommodate that. Just dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

Anyway, having got that sorted out, what's this got to do with the BBC?

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

Re: Funding of the BBC
 

:tu: