Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'm sure we could free up space by just imprisoning the ones that fiddle/d their expenses. :erm:

Are there any UK prisons with a moat that needs a good cleaning?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

l am sure even old papa would agreed to that.;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

We had this discussion before, about what the people who invented democracy thought and did about lying politicians, there doesn't have to be wholesale jailings there has to be the threat of it to show we're sick of them and their antics and to remind them that they work for us not the other way round, throwing in a other and and it might also put a stop to the shysters like peter mandelson being sacked for dishonesty being brought back in a new role after a few months, I've never understood it, a minister proves to be highly inappropriate in one department can in a matter of months be considered competent enough to run another different one, the fact that in the main their figureheads telling others to implement policy makes it even worse :rant:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But tokenistic gestures make for bad laws. The issue is so vague that the law will be either so restrictive as to be meaningless or open enough to invite all sorts of challenges.

The punishment for lying politicians should come from the public but it doesn't really happen. We are too partisan so that we're more lenient to our own side whilst too harsh on political opponents, the press is the same way. If May had made the statement Corbyn did about Tuition fees then The Sun would be no where near as outraged, pointing out it wasn't in the manifesto, likewise if May had said she had never met the IRA despite photographic evidence to the contrary then social media would be spitting with venom over the lie. Most of us do this, just human nature.

Then you have cynics who lazily assume they're all the same which means genuine, hard-working, MPs get chucked in with the shysters. Simultaneously giving bad MPs cover and good MPs undeserved grief.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It wouldn't be tokenism, it would be the real deal, it just wouldn't be wheeled out for every minor fib, just the whoppers. These things don't have to be hard, if the law is badly written we'll just rewrite it until we get it right.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Could do but would this include the 'sorta' lies?

For example:

Is not, technically, a lie. The 'lets' is enough to get them off the hook strictly speaking.

Also Corbyn saying:

Is not technically a lie either.

In both cases they were happy to let the perception that this is what would happen float around to help them in the referendum but in both cases they were never strictly promises. Politicians rarely outright lie, they usually word their 'promises' in such a way to have a get out clause.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

or like if the people vote to leave the EU iwill invoke article 50

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But he did in a way, he withdrew from parliament, almost as good as.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

there's a big difference between i will do it and running away and letting someone else do it

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'm glad he ran away!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Whilst I get your point, the lie was that we send £350m to the EU each week when we don't; the true figure according to the ONS is less than £200m.
http://www.cityam.com/241925/calcula...-the-eu-budget

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

And we get lot of it back through farm subsidies and regeneration in areas like the NE and SW of England. (Ironically pro-Brexit areas, they'll soon find out where the money came from. The post-Brexit Britain will be even more SE focused, and more divided between rich and poor ...)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

:zzz: Absolute rubbish as always.

We still put far more in than we get out. Infact, we are only one of 10 Countries out of the entire 28 who do, the 18 we piggy back and they get more out than they put in. Unsustainable BS, is what it is.

---------- Post added at 23:14 ---------- Previous post was at 23:12 ----------

I cannot believe you are still peddling this BS. Change the record FFS. :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

We wouldn't have technicalities, we'd have certainty and anyone that thought they could hide behind get out clauses would soon find that they can't when they're immediately asked for clarification, interviews, adverts and tv shows couldn't continue or be broadcast until they're pinned down and before you know it straight answers and telling the truth are second nature to them, just like it is for the rest of us.

Oh and for the record I think both corbyn and the bus are liars, there was no ambiguity when they were making these bold statements or when they were allowing people to misinterpret them on purpose

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

yes let's hang the bus won't that be fun

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

More homophobic hate in the Labour party:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7869566.html

Where do they find these people?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

how refreshing to hear religion at it's best :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

To balance things up a bit.....

More hate from the Conservative Party (choose a link - it's like a lucky dip of hatred ;)):

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/29/conser...-dogs-6745018/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-public-event
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7735891.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7798656.html

I could go on but then I'd just look obsessed.

Cheers

Dave

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Prejudice and bigotry sadly is still pretty prevalent in this country even in 2017 and political parties no matter what colour they are no different sadly grim..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Why do you have to be so extreme, I don't want to kill anyone, just punish the liars like the guy who stuck the sign on the bus, the bus is going to be punished enough soon anyway when it trundles round carrying a battery almost as big as itself in the name of progress

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Couldn't agree more, shame yours is view not very well reflected on CF.

Cheers

Dave

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

but it was a suggestion not a statement of fact

as for the battery i hear the rear of the bendy bus will be a 30 ton battery with a range of almost 2 miles

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

How about you give me 350 quid a week, I'll spend it on decorating my house, moving my home office every other month to another house you help me pay for, for no reason. I'll give some money to other people that don't pay me anything.

Then I'll give you back, say, £119 ** and I'll tell you how you can spend it.

That sound good to you?


** 34% which is approx. what the EU spends on the UK annually.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That's bs, it only became a suggestion once it became time to deliver upon it, up until then they were happy to say it was fact, same as corbyn and his tuition fee scam

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Wasting your time. Obsessive's don't do balance .. but I would like to thank you for trying.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Britain is a net contributor, Mr K. That means that we put in more than we get back - it's nothing to do with help under the fisheries policy. :D

Although we get some money back, we don't get to say how it's used. That's how farmers get to receive a subsidy for doing nothing.

What a pig's ear the EU make of everything at our expense. 🐷

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Especially local councilors, they are a law unto themselves whatever party they represent!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yup, Labour's infested with these people and a good many are much higher up the food chain. Just consider the sort of things the Shadow Chancellor has said over the years for example. It's appalling but there are plenty of rose tinted apologists who turn a blind eye to it.

Can anyone find a single example of a Tory sponsored/supported march or demonstration that resulted in violence and intimidation on our streets?




---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

and here's yet another interview in which a Labour shadow minister doesn't know his numbers.

https://order-order.com/2017/08/02/s...ash-interview/

Labour and numbers just don't add up...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think its its called freedom.
People are allowed views that other people dont like.
We havent quite yet got the days when we are told what we must think, though some would love if we did.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I don't think he is ordering people how to think. People are (within some limits) allowed to express views which others can call bigoted.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Indeed everybody is entitled to their views but they must remember that others have opposite views as some seem to conveniently forget that sometimes.:)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The pro hunting rent-a-mob have form (half a dozen of them even managed to get in to the Parliament). Now remind me, which party was talking about/supporting the reintroduction of hunting with dogs in the run up to the election a few weeks ago?

Cheers

Dave

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No party talked about reintroduction or supporting it. That wasn't what was said. Theresa May suggested MPs get a free vote in parliament to repeal the ban. Many in her party did not support such a move, hence no party supported it.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Thankfully it has been knocked into the long grass permanently one hopes.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Just checked and this is what the Conservative Manifesto said: We will grant a free vote, on a government bill in government time, to give parliament the opportunity to decide the future of the Hunting Act.

Now I know you'll try and wriggle out of it, but a government bill on government time sounds pretty like something supported by the party AND if they are happy for it to remain banned then why not let the present ban stand??

Mrs May kept saying all the way the election campaign that we needed to vote for her and only her (a big mistake in the end) and she tried her best to dominate every aspect of party policy - look at the 'battle' bus - she even signed it!! So as she is a supporter of fox hunting I think the pledge in the manifesto came straight from the top and she had/has some strange idea that such a barbaric step backwards would win her the respect of the country. It would be funny if it wasn't so disturbing.

Cheers

Dave

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

LOL, the government can create these bills but does not mean it will get full party support, never heard of rebellions? This would have gone to a free vote, so no party whips involved.

That said. It's been in the news for some time. The pledge has been dropped.

And for the record, I do not need to 'wriggle' out if anything. I stand by all my posts on here. So, I reaffirm that it was not supported by any party and it would have lost had it come to a vote.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Suppose that's one way of looking at foolish things in a manifesto, especially when they don't fit the argument your trying to make.


Cheers


Dave

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Is that the bus that blew over in the wind, the one that had strong and stable written on it.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good ;).

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Very Articulate, aren't you, on your own misgivings... ;)

Cheers,

Mick.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

A free vote can be useful. If the majority succeed in keeping the ban, it shuts the animal killers up for a few more years.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

i see you don't understand foxes
1 they eat babies
2 they rob pensioners
3 they are armed to the teeth and roam the countryside bumping off horses
4 they plan world domination and the extinction of the human race
5 if there not eliminated they will take over the world
6 and most importantly posh oiks love killing anything that moves and will come up with numerous reasons to get blood on their hands .

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Got to keep the population down somehow!
:disturbd:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Is that the best you can do?? :rofl:

Yeah that really compares with Labour loony lefties marching in the streets, smashing up vehicles, defacing memorials trying to set fire to buildings and being praised by McDonnell for 'kicking the **** out of Millbank'. Nice people I'm sure... :rolleyes:

For decades we've suffered Labour/union supported and other loony lefty protests on our streets which have turned extremely nasty. They seem to feel calling the Tories 'the nasty party' gives them free reign to behave like thugs. Labour has a great deal more previous for being truly nasty than the Tories.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes the 80's in most of Northern England was one long fairytale with the Tories. :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

And a good chunk of the 90's wasn't much better.

Cheers

Dave

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

what was so bad ?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Unemployment?

Cheers

Dave

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Resorting to insults :nono:

You said:

when the original 2017 Conservative Party Manifesto said:

So it seems a party *did* talk about reintroduction after all ..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Theresa May is all for it even though she's supposedly never done it herself. Hence she wanted a vote on reintroduction. She wouldn't waste parliamentary time if she thought it would just reaffirm an existing law.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

:o::o::o:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

and your eloquent point is .....

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I see you are showing your, undue concern with triviality again. :rolleyes:

I resorted to no such thing, so wag your finger all you want. :dozey:

Nope, never happened.

You are not telling me the entire Tory party discussed and decided on a vote to repeal of the hunting act, that's not how policies and decisions are decided upon, in a party Manifesto.

And no party can re-introduce something when it has to go to a repeal vote first AND crucially, need full party backing, which it did not have and so it was abandoned.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

To be fair, including it in a manifesto is "talking" about reintroduction as that's quite a loose phrase. Perhaps we can all harmoniously agree on this point and also agree that the government did not "promise" to reintroduce hunting?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Agreed: the Tories talked about reintroduction in their party manifesto but of course it would be conditional on the free parliamentary vote.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Mick, are you able to agree with this statement?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's been said that Jeremy Corbyn is gearing up for the next election but how will young people vote now given that he told the media that he had a fully costed manifesto but did not realise how much it would cost to honour his pledge about cutting tuition fees.

Corbyn targetted the young because of their lack of voting experience and it seems to have paid off. Older voters appreciate that politicians cannot be trusted.

Having said that if the government had been better at offsetting the disadvantages created by high immigration in areas like Boston and Blackpool the referendum outcome might have been different provided of course that voters ensured they went out to vote.

When people cannot afford a house or get their children into the school of their choice or cannot sign on with a doctor or dental practice, it is likely thay will become resentful.

Some years ago George Clarke from Channel 4 told Grant Shapps about the million empty homes in the country. You would think that action to repair them and bring them back into use would have been forthcoming with local builders being given the job but instead the Conservative party stuck to their plan of using big building companies who wanted to build on Green Belt land to keep down costs.

This plus the failure to provide adequate school places, doctors, dentists and now teachers etc merely encouraged people to vote for leaving the EU and put us in the mess we are in now as the cabinet squabble over the best plan to leave.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I see Corbyn's learned a few lessons in spin from his arch-enemey Blair. This time it's a visit to a supposedly normal GP's surgery with plenty of anti-government pro-Labour talk...

https://order-order.com/2017/08/10/c...r-spin-doctor/

Oddly, there's no mention of the political affiliations of the guy who runs the practice. Can't think why... :confused:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well, maybe if the strikers hadn't brought the country to its knees and had the unions not tried to bring down the government, things might have looked a lot different.

The words actions and consequences spring to mind.

It was certainly a shame that ordinary, decent people were caught up in all that, it must have been horrendous.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I doubt leafy Wokingham suffered in the same way in the 80's as the industrial North.

Agree with the last sentence, except for the inference that e.g. miners weren't generally ordinary decent people.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yep my Dads relatives worked in the pit and they were fine ordinary decent upstanding people who my Dad looked up too as they taught him the basics of life but alas stereotyping and demonising certain groups on here has become too much of a common occurrence for my liking especially when its based on ignorance , prejudice and political biasedness.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Unfortunately the history books will show that there were ordinary decent miners who wanted to work but were abused/attacked/murdered by other miners. :(

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The history books leave out the state sponsored assaults the police inflicted, ordered by the Iron Lady. The Hillsborough families are seeing justice, the miners need justice too. Unfortunately one of the chief suspects is no longer with us.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes South Yorkshire police certainly tore up the rule book in the 80's.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I had relatives involved in the mining industry in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire and well remember them talking about the miner's strike and how they and most of their colleagues didn't support it and it wasn't the police doing most of the intimidating back then. Also miner's like every group had their share of bad but overall they were decent, honest hardworking people doing their best and should not all be judged by the small group of N.U.M sponsored thugs most of whom hadn't been down a pit in their lives.

As for whose worse between Thatcher and Scargill it's no contest Scargill takes it by a country mile a small man who got power and blew an entire industry into the dirt trying to use that power to blackmail an entire country.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think you are stretching reality a bit thin by inferring that.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I wasn't living in Womingham at the time, but wherever you lived, the lights were going out at regular intervals and there was a general concern that the country was being taken over by Communists. Ordinary miners suffered the worst, of course, as did those towns and villages that relied on the industry for their economy.

Incidentally, I did not say that ordinary mineworkers were not decent people. It was the union leaders like Arthur Scargill who were actively trying to bring down the government who were responsible for all the chaos at the time. They also pretty well destroyed the mining industry in the process.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Correct and they certainly hastened its demise. It was politically motivated.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Perhaps another reverberation from the election. Kezia Dugdale quits as Scottish Labour leader.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-41082916

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think she's had a moment of clarity, encapsulated in this comment in her resignation letter:

Quote:

Earlier this year I lost a dear friend who taught me a lot about how to live. His terminal illness forced him to identify what he really wanted from life, how to make the most of it and how to make a difference. He taught me how precious and short life was and never to waste a moment.

So many of us never have this realisation until it is too late...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Many events can change ones thinking and priorities in our lives as none of us are invincible that is for sure and l commend her for making obviously what was a difficult decision for her.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Seconded. Wise words from you and Kezia.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think the most shocking news is May is running as Tory leader in 2022 Election. So one can presume she ain't going nowhere.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Guido has given some good reasons why he thinks she won't:

https://order-order.com/2017/08/31/m...ing-on-and-on/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Not often l agree with Guido but he is spot on with most of what he has said.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Shame that our political leaders are chosen on how they appear and not on how competent they are (with some exceptions). Those that play to the masses and know how to tweak the right buttons often do better than those who look less good, hopeless at social media but can keep calm in a crisis and steer an often unwilling vessel through treacherous waters.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Another Conservative manifesto pledge ditched.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rom-650-to-600

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well, there's no point in pursuing the introduction of legislation that will clearly not be passed by the Commons because the numbers don't stack up. That would just be a waste of time.

The pledge will be implemented when the Government returns with the size of majority it needs.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

What you mean not enough Turkeys would vote for Christmas. ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That could be quite a while away given the Conservative party's deep discontent with their current leader.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...weak-hopeless/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That's more than balanced by many Labour MP's deep discontent with Corbyn. ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Both very poor leaders in my book as we are not exactly enamoured with even half capable leaders currently sadly as Theresa May was IMO fatally damaged at the last general election which should have never been held as her election campaign to cut a long story short was dreadful to say the least and Mr Corbyn well he has never been a leader IMO.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's truly refreshing to hear Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary being so unequivocal about the prospect of illegal strikes being supported by Len McKluskey.

https://order-order.com/2017/09/12/b...legal-strikes/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41237242

Odd how these people find the simplest questions the hardest to answer isn't it. This must be more of Corbyn's 'new' politics...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Government wins another vote tonight. An Amendment has been voted against which would have denied the government a guaranteed majority on standing committees.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Killer George....:Yikes::eeek:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...st-theresa-may

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I can only assume the damage she did to his ego by daring to sack him has led to some form of psychological fixation. He's entitled to criticise as much and as vehemently as he likes but he's behaving like John McDonnell. It's not very edifying but at least he's no longer a serving member of Parliament unlike McDonnell.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Looks like the DUP are going to vote with Labour over NHS pay and tuition fees. That's £1bn of bribe money (i.e. our money) well spent by Theresa...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...y_to_clipboard

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Actually the vote was not part of a Confidence and Supply arrangement. But the motion has passed anyway without any opposition.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 17:49 ----------

I think George should write a book, "What happened", oops someone's already beat him to that title... :p:

Brexit completely scuppered his plans to become PM. Brexit was not meant to happen. We all know Cameron was to serve his last term in 2015, was we looking at another Blair/Brown scenario, Cameron resigns 2018/19 and Osborne steps up to PM. But because George was on the wrong side of Brexit and May played a back seat Remainer role, while George was telling us in no uncertain terms, Brexit would be a disaster and we would need to have an emergency budget.

When May finally became PM, George was left out in cold in the reshuffle, seems the knives were really out.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

One lesson is never to get on the wrong side of Osborne. He is a fairly interesting character. He didn't even want the referendum, advised Cameron against it, but threw his entire career behind it. From what we know his real problem with May is not so much being fired but the way she did it. The guy holds a grudge.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I can understand why some folk hold grudges. But for a former chancellor of the exchequer to want the PM chopped up in to pieces, in to bags in a freezer that's going beyond normal, even if it was meant to be a joke, it is still sick. :erm:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well if it's a choice between May or Osbourne it's May allday everyday.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well in our household there is only one choice and that is the OH.;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

To be honest I've always thought him rather creepy. Now he's added vindictive to the list of adjectives.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Oh I don't know, Gideon has gone up in my estimation, even if it's because he's a very good backstabber. Even he saw the disaster Brexit would be. All Dave's fault, who has gone very quiet.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/jerem...orrespondents/

Indeed. The disaster that is Richard Burgon seems to have made clear that the plan for dealing with the press is copying the Trump model. I find it no more acceptable whatever place in the political spectrum the people doing it occupy. It's one thing to evade answering questions, another to show utter disdain for those asking the questions.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yup. Politicians and their supporters don't want to be scrutinised and so turn it onto the media. Any negative stories about them are part of a conspiracy against them, any reporting that deviates from their narrative are lies.

At best they want there to be no actual concept of something being true and instead everything being a point of view, a best they want to be the only source of what is true.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well woopity-do the media are complaining about being abused. Such a shame.

They could stop it in a heartbeat if they spoke as one.

The media has the power that no political party has, it is the media that influences public opinion and is the outlet for any political party.

If the media as a whole turned around to the national executive and told them they will not tolerate abuse of reporters and henceforth will not report on any rally, speaches or publish any press releases how long do you think it would take for the Party to resolve the problem?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The media isn't one monolithic bloc. They are however one of the best protections against corruption and abuses by government and those in power would very much like it if they were less powerful. If any reporting that undermined the likes of Burgon were meet with fierce resistance by the voters rather than the politicians.

An elected politician is asked if he supports illegal strikes and it's the BBC who are in the wrong for asking? It's madness.

As I said they're not one monolithic bloc so papers sympathetic to them would still report their actions. Plus as the opposition it is their job to cover them.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

If we are talking about MSM. Sorry but there can be an obvious bias and they will only publish what fits their narrative. The guardian, venomously Anti-Brexit. TheMirror Anti-Tory.

Sure the press are needed to call in to question and call people out but to hell with impartiality.

You only have to look at the US. CNN, Washington Post, New York Times, totally Anti-Trump and all three of them have been involved in writing false and fake stories about him, so it's why he calls them out for FAKE News on those negative articles, which do actually have a degree of truth to them.

It's now why I like to gauge multiple sources of news before believing just one. Else I just sit on the fence.