Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Now that is true ...

I wish I could sing along with it, but I'd just end up looking like John Redwood.

---------- Post added at 17:24 ---------- Previous post was at 17:21 ----------

We are not the French. If their normal, respectful behaviour is *not* singing their anthem, then that's fair enough for them.

It is not ours and, quite regardless of anything the anthem's lyrics might say, and what he believes about them, he should have sung it, just as surely as he took the oath of allegiance upon being re-elected last May.


Heavens to murgatroyd, even Nicola Sturgeon managed to sing it through gritted teeth last week. Corbyn has no excuse.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

We also don't live in a dictatorship where we should all conform to a particular diktat. He may have had his own good reasons not to sing the National Anthem. Let's see if he makes them known ..

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I've never sung the anthem, I'm not anti-monarchist, purely a bad singer. It's a personal choice, standing and respecting it is good enough. He was there at a memorial service paying his respects but still he gets it in the neck. Total non-story, but they'll be a lot of those about Corbyn coming from our partisan and twisted media (plus it's a rubbish anthem anyway).

I'm expecting a story about him eating babies next (it'll be jelly babies, but that will be a minor omitted detail...).

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Corbyn's taxi driver breaks camera, outside his house

paparazzi "Every day we have trouble down here"

link

and a Nazi

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/09/9.jpg

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Out of all the reasons Corbyn is unsuitable to be leader of the opposition this seems rather mild to me. I can't get too worked up about the act of not physically singing. I don't think it indicates disrespect or indifference.

Appointing a Shadow chancellor whose talked of 'honouring the IRA' and being unable to condemn ISIS without making some attempt to bring America into it as well, as if they were morally equivalent, are far more concerning acts.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

That's why I don't sing, you'd be lucky to get a hum out of me. Be interesting to see if the public lap up all these non stories or they see through them for what they are.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Which is why the outcome of his base rudeness is his lowered standing in the eyes of many, and not a summary jail term. Though I suspect Corbyn himself might have tried to pour scorn on common courtesy with similarly overblown language, if given the chance. Indeed, he has already tried (and failed) to deflect attention away from the fact that all the most senior jobs in his shadow cabinet have gone to white, middle-aged men by accusing those who dared question him of 'living in the 18th century'.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Anthems aside, if he carries on like this Corbyn will be lucky to last months let alone years.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

In the celebrity jungle faster than you can say Johnny Rotten.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Best place for him I reckon. ;)

However, if his presence shakes up his party and results in a credible opposition with viable policies I'll thank him for that. Right now what I can see happening is a major split within the Labour party resulting in two factions fixated more on infighting than anything else. Perhaps that's what required however... :shrug:

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

And he (and others) need to understand that that a reasonable percentage of the British population see the 'not singing' as a sign of lack of respect to the memory of those who served (and those who fell) in the Battle of Britain.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Two things on Corbyn. I seriously cannot understand why there such an outcry, because Corbyn didn't sing the anthem. What about ENGLAND players not singing the anthem when they have an England shirt on - l can think of Rooney for example.

Anyone should be proud to support or wear the English shirt. I was in a British Legion Club one day. And two people wouldn't stand for the Anthem.

Too me there is nothing wrong in that.

And Two, I heard a rumour that some bookies are taking bets that Corbyn will be out of office by CHRISTMAS. Due to his antics. And that there are MPs with knifes out already

He certainly has started, hasn't he.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

That's Kamila Shamsies personal opinion :shrug:
As for sportsmen not singing it, they aren't leaders of a major political party. Neither are they potentially/possibly going to be leader of the country who's anthem they refused to sing.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

It's a pathetic lack of respect and those who don't show respect don't deserve it.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Some people have problem with "god save the queen" part, I personally feel when was the competition to become the queen and I missed it? what's special about her? Why can't I be queen? etc etc

But Corbyn has stated Britain likes her and it not a battle that he is going to fight.

Blair was a catholic and he never admitted it until he resigned.

Do you want Corbyn to be a hypocrite? He was respectful silently. He even shook the hand of the Archbishop (or whatever he was) at the entrance. He was fully respectful. Period.

And when you have give an oath in Britain, one can bypass the Queen problem, by choosing an oath that bypasses her (there is a list of legal oaths).

The Queen is irrelevant to some people, which are the minority in Britain. Lovely lady, but ...

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I thought only nasty evil Torys ate babies? :shrug:

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Corbyn is an atheist republican. God Save the Queen is a no-win for him from the point of view of the media.

When I attend church services I don't join in the prayers, nor do I bow my head. I lower my eyes, stand still and keep schtum. Am I being disrespectful? Would it not be far more disrespectful for me to stand there murmuring words I dislike in worship of a deity I don't believe in?

Easy target, but perspective is good. I'd love not to have the anthem centred around the Queen and God, but rather the nation and country, alongside changing the tune to one that isn't shared with the Imperial German anthem and doesn't sound more like dirge than a rousing expression of national pride, but it is what it is.

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

As I said, a no win. Had he sung it he'd have been called a hypocrite.

To be fair, though, the man could cure cancer, bring world peace, prosperity and a utopian life to all and certain people would still take a pop.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

As a private citizen with no aspirations to lead this country and represent its people around the world, you are free of many of the expectations that hang round the necks of all our senior public servants.

Corbyn is a republican who nevertheless swore an oath of allegiance to the Queen at the beginning of every Parliament he has ever been elected to. Regardless of his constitutional preferences, he judged that using the form of words that allowed him to take his seat in parliament was the better course of action.

The very act of singing the national anthem is a "thing" in itself, rich in symbolism, quite regardless of the actual words. Plenty of people belt out Flower of Scotland at public occasions north of the border, knowing that the song is an explicit call for independence, and yet having voted No last September.

I would invite all those who don't see a problem with this to consider, in the (highly unlikely) event that Corbyn ever gets to be Prime Minister, how is it going to look to the rest of the world when he is filmed *not* singing along with his national anthem at some major public occasion, when all those around him are doing so?

Of course, the reason why this will never happen is that, like all hard-left nut jobs, he holds his principles so high above reproach that he doesn't know how to compromise. That makes him look irritable and uncouth - not a good look for a PM. So the voters won't give him the job.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I refuse to sing it.

Not because I don't feel privileged to have been born in the UK, but because:

1) I'm an atheist and it's called God Save the Queen.
2) The most commonly sung version says nothing about our country but instead beseeches God to look after our monarch. If that does say something about our country how depressing.
3) It's crap.

Give me an anthem that celebrates the country rather than our state religion and head of state alone and I can definitely get on board.

---------- Post added at 10:03 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

Regarding the first paragraph indeed. Isn't it wonderful? :)

The second paragraph is quite unfortunate. The only way in which a republican can properly represent their constituents is to compromise on that belief by swearing an oath of allegiance to the monarch. Another no-win situation.

All in all our country isn't the greatest place for an atheist republican to form a part of the legislature. I don't envy anyone with those views that dilemma.

EDIT: That time when you realise you are far more republican than you gave yourself credit for previously. Yikes.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

If I ever harboured any thoughts of running for office, I remind myself of a decade of opining on this website and the feeling quickly goes away. ;)

It is unfortunate, but it is an unavoidable consequence of our organic, uncodified constitution. Nevertheless, that constitution has contributed to a level of long-lived political stability that is rare in the world, at any point in history, and on the whole I think we are better off with messy compromises and gradual changes (such as, for example, the right to affirm rather than swear, first guaranteed in the Quaker Act).

I had a republican wobble for about six months some time around 2002. The feeling went away by itself. :D

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

:clap:

Land of Hope and Glory does it for me.

Wiki

I'm sure Jezzer will be singing his head off to the "Red Flag" though.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Well PMQs was a damp squib. I can't see Corbyn's tactic of asking questions without following them up or challenging the answers given lasting too long. Maybe he chose that approach to deprive the PM of the opportunity to comment on some of the considerable problems and dissent he faces within his own party. :shrug:

As quaint as it may seem for a day or two, I can't see what value those who sent in the questions he chose to raise will feel they got from Cameron being allowed to give his Government's view without any challenge. Quite the reverse, in fact. If I felt so concerned about govt. policy that I'd been moved to write to the leader of the opposition I'd expect him/her to challenge that policy robustly, not give the other side what amounted to a free party political broadcast on the subject without a word about how Labour would do things differently.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Yes I was wondering if it was normal to keep using constituency testimonials. On the other hand it is something of a nice idea.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

He's even disassociating himself from the questions he asks at PMQs!

He's certainly a strange character. He would soon turn from this 'gentle' person into a monster if he ever he got to the office of Prime Minister. I wonder how quickly he could transform these islands into another North Korea?

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Ben from Dover makes the point that Corbyn's preoccupation with questions might be accounted for by his lack of any credible answers to those questions. :D

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I think your hypothesis may not be an optimal interpretation of available information, and your worst-case scenario may not be founded in actuality. ;)

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Not sure N. Korea is realistic but I could see Corbyn recreating Tower Hamlets on a national level if he got the chance.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

We're not talking about you. You are free to do what you want in that situation. Corbyn on the other hand is the leader of the opposition, has sworn an oath to the Queen and might become prime minister. Hell, even Sturgeon sang the anthem.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Reviewing the BBC reporting of PMQ's today, one thing did spring out at me which I think may damage Mr Corbyn.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-34263142

@13:32 [quote]
Compare that to David Cameron's reply to the question from Mr Dodds Mr Corbyn's not going to have many friends if he keeps giving equivalence to the IRA killings to actions of the Army, imho.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Corbyn did with ISIS and America too. The constant attempt to draw moral equivalence between the 'us'/the west and terrorists.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I saw PMQs today and thought it was interesting. I liked how he put real issues like housing and mental health as top billing, rather than go with whatever the headline of the day was. Cameron had the opportunity to hit Corbyn with the national anthem thing, but chose not too. A wise decision, I think.

I expected the Tory MPs to cheer when he first spoke, but they didn't and found out later they were told not to, a good move in hindsight. They looked worried by the end of PMQs with good reason, I believe.

I was a little bit too young to remember Michael Foot, except that he was a quiet gentleman, but the country rejected his policies outright and I think this will be the same with Corbyn, but we'll see.

I don't see myself ever voting Labour, let alone for a hard left player like Corbyn. But, if he is a serious politician and is committed to sorting things that need sorting out, I will listen to what he has to say.

We've all had enough of the carbon copy, media friendly, word perfect and totally shallow people that most of our politicians are these days. Perhaps Corbyn may shake things up, but when he is so dogmatic in his "principles" that he would rather divorce his wife than agree with her about sending their son to a top grammar school, then this kind of person simply terrifies me.

Principles are great, except when it overrides basic common sense.

I await to see his stance on the nuclear weapons. If he is committed to getting rid of them in the face of an ever aggressive Mr Putin, then I will stop listening to him at that point.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I think the issue is that you do need professional politicians. People claim they want normal people who speak their mind but people also claim they're sick of celebrity gossip. The reality is that spin is still important and if Corbyn had a proper PR team they wouldn't have allowed him to cancel interviews just after he was elected, they would have controlled the cabinet announcements to feature the women first, they would have told him to just sing the bloody national anthem.

His entire operation has been amateur so far. He has gifted the press easy stories to run with when there was no need, an even greater mistake when you consider the task he faces. There was no need to have that footage of him blanking the Sky camera or the video of him not signing - these achieved nothing and they're obvious to even an observer as a massive error of judgement.

Blair and Cameron are slick. They know how to play the game, they know how to avoid a headline and block a question. Farage is excellent at appealing to his audience and knows just where to draw the line when it comes to providing a quote.

Corbyn actually is that straight talking guy and it's terrible. It's the equivalent of when people on TV think they won't need make-up. You will because the camera will make you look terrible.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

.... I don't disagree. The press have enjoyed every Corby moment so far, all of which could have easily been avoided.

Cameron and Blair are masters of their art, actors on a stage and considering the amount of times Blair was elected, it's clearly what people wanted.

Corbyn is real. Whether the electorate want real is another question entirely.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

The baby story is coming up, but for today we have this!

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Everybody is real. Not everybody is a leader. Reading out other people's questions at PMQs may be a real attempt to do things differently, but it doesn't make him a leader. The Prime Minister of the UK isn't supposed to be an avatar for the British people, he is supposed to be a representative with personal control and responsibility for events.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I can't see him lasting very long.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Sleeze. Who'd have thought it. :D

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

He's way too equivocal on a number of issues for my taste.

---------- Post added at 09:37 ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 ----------

Saw that yesterday. A really hideous visualisation. Made me sorely regret doing the Dryathlon. :sick:

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

http://newsthump.com/2015/09/16/god-...nt-ask-nicely/

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

He's the gift that keeps on giving.....

This quote from a BBC interview on the 16th September referred to in the Grauniad Downing Street statement 14th September He's obviously not checked his post or email....:D

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Perhaps he has as many letters to open as he has emails and has not got to it yet.:D

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I know he's been a backbencher for 30 odd years but he doesn't seem to have learned much about the way things are done and what's expected of a party leader, even if it's purely out of common courtesy and respect. I think he's probably better suited to presenting late night radio phone-ins.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

The love child of Jeremy and Diane

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/09/12.png

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Bet she sends him to private school too... ;)

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Well after all these years, the odious Jim McDonnell suddenly decides he's sincerely sorry for remarks he made about the IRA and Margaret Thatcher.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34285308

I don't suppose he'd be too ready to accept a similarly offered apology given by an evil Tory MP in the same circumstances but there we are.

Anyway I'm sure his sudden change of opinion really does come from the bottom of his heart and has nothing whatsoever to do with his recent change of employment...

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Sounds like he deserves a medal :)

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

:D

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Interesting article: link

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

The 20 month sentence means he is ineligible to be an MP. Not unreasonable to expect the same eligibility rule to be applied to Ministers.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Instead of attacking JC, you should be applauding him:

Iraq vote: the 43 rebel MPs

Who voted against the Iraq War? A certain Mr Corbyn ...

Who voted for the war? A certain Mr Blair and who supported it? A certain Mr Cameron .. who both were observed to sing the National Anthem :)

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Never let us also forget the House voted on the evidence* supplied by the in situ government, later found to be 'sexed up*'....

Corbin didn't vote against the Iraq war because of lack of evidence, he voted that way because he was/is anti-American and pro-anyone who the Americans are against....

*made up stuff up supporting the Bush/Blair revenge on Saddam

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

That's the crux for me, actions speaking louder than foe patriotism or sound bites

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Corbyn is opposed to foreign military intervention as a matter of principle. If he had some great insight into events and voted based on them, then fair dos - but he didn't. He voted against it because he always does. That's a fine exercise of principle for a single-minded activist but it won't wash if he wants to be PM.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I'd rather a person of principle than one without.It's a shame that being a politician these days means you can't be principled:(.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Indeed.:tu:

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Does the Leader of the Opposition have access to the MI5 files supporting proposed foreign conflicts?

I have this mental image of Tony receiving the "Saddam" file from MI5, getting out his big red pen and changing various entries. He then gives it to Leader of the Opposition saying " Look! He is a really bad man, honest! Just sign .. here .. here .. and .. here" :)

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

If Saddam was such a "nice man", why were there UN sanctions and a no-fly zone? Did the super-gun, scud missiles fired upon Israel, chemical weapons programmes with their use on the Marsh Arabs all not exist?:rolleyes:

For such a "cute and fluffy" kind of guy he sure killed a lot of people and was intent on killing even more. Bit like the IRA, ISIS, Al-Qaeda etc, all "supported" by Corbyn.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Meanwhile, back in reality....

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/j...ossier-inquiry

They didn't use a big red pen, they just rewrote it - but I'm sure you knew that aleady....

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Me too. However, the leader of a major party having 'principles' is one thing, having credible policies in support of those 'principles' is quite another in Corbyn's case. It'd also be nice if said 'principles' extended to minor details like acceptable/respectful behaviour in public and shadow cabinet appointments.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Him being principled isn't the problem. It's his principles that I have a problem with.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Jeremy over Donald any day of the week. He makes George Snr & Jnr look like puppy dogs and that should scare the whole world. So it's better the devil you've got than the devil the Americans could give us.

Cheers

Grim

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

what about jeb?? there's scope for another Iraq invasion the bush family might not be finished ;)

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Not too worried about Jeb, as I think he's in possession of the family's brain cell. Donald scares me - he's capable of starting a war that'll only ever end in a scoredraw.

Cheers

Grim

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

The principled are more likely to trip themselves up.The other sort just lie through their teeth until they can no longer be economical with the truth.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Really, I thought the other day in the leader debates he said he was sure there were situations where British forces could be deployed overseas but he just couldn't envisage them there and then. Sounded like a perfectly reasonable answer to me but predictably he was slaughtered for not wanting to be a war monger

---------- Post added at 19:38 ---------- Previous post was at 19:36 ----------

Its been done to death, he wasn't a threat to his own people or his neighbours, he wasn't stockpiling wmds, he wasn't involved with Islamic terrorists etc etc the rationales used for war were all false end of, if we wanted saddam out we should've done it when he was a menace.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Jeremy Corbyn reveals first official policy: To renationalise the railways

Jeremy Corbyn unveils his first official policy since becoming leader of the Labour Party, with plans for a “People’s Railway” under which his government would fast-track a renationalisation of England’s rail network.

The plans would lead to a third of franchises being brought under public ownership by 2025 if he became prime minister at the next election. Mr Corbyn will announce that each route would be renationalised when its franchise expired. Some five out of 16 franchises are due to expire between 2020 and 2025, including East Coast, Southern and TransPennine Express.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10509504.html

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Whilst I mostly agree with you, I think the Kuwaitis, Iraq Marsh Arabs, and the Kurds may disagree with you on the point I highlighted.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Along with the UN, which agreed to sanctions and a no-fly zone. How long should sanctions have gone on for?

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Wonder if he has thought how much it will cost to do that. I assume the likes of Virgin trains won't simply write off the 1.5 billion investment they have made in 70 new trains for the west coast line, over the last few years?

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

just wait till he gets his teeth into power /gas and water

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Yes, zero. Nationalization will take place "...when its franchise expires" Btw, many rail companies, including Virgin have leased their trains from the State, SWT lease 100% of their trains

link

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

The three big train leasing companies are Porterbrook , Angel Trains and The Eversholt Rail Group and none of them are owned by the state and there are several small train leasing companies as well..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_t...asing_services

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Thats strange on their media relations page they state the following?

"Since 1997, Virgin Trains has introduced over 70 new trains at a cost of £1.5 billion. The service carries more than 34.5 million passengers a year and Virgin Trains employs approximately 3,290 staff."

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

You did read this part of the post you quoted, right?

I imagine the current operating companies would be entitled to no compensation at all.

Renationalising the railways is a policy that carries support across the political spectrum. It's not a controversial policy in any way. A pretty safe one for Corbyn to advertise, actually.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Yes I did read that part hence my question how much will it cost to renationalise. You assume they will no compensation but that's not the question.Virgin Trains/Stagecoach paid 4.8 billion for the franchise, spent 1.7 billion on trains and x millions on station upgrades. Do you assume they will just hand that across to the government or will the government have to pay for the infrastructure they inherit?

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

At the time we went to war he wasn't a threat to his people or his neighbours, not that it was one of the rationales used for war, it just became convenient once the lies and myths about wmds were exposed, if we gave a toss about the people there we'd have toppled him when he was at he's worst not when the country was stable

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rati...r_the_Iraq_War

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I believe the plan is to take over the franchises when the terms expire.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

How long should the civil war go on for? The sanctions would have remained in place as long as saddam was in place no matter how compliant he was with our demands. Another cynical ploy to get the Iraqis to do our dirty work for us after leaving them in the lurch after gulf war 1, I tell you if there is ever an accounting for what you've done America amongst others won't like the price they have to pay

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

the problem would be once they take the first franchise back the others will stop investment and simply run them down .

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I reckon that would do as much for rail users as what Miliband did for the utilities customers by announcing he'd be imposing price controls if elected.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

It always amazes me how gullible people think that nationalisation will miraculously make a service cheap and better.

At best the price will fall by the profit margin of the private company, typically 5% or so. Any further reduction would have to be subsidised by the taxpayer. i.e YOU.

Unifying a service in the state sector would simply make it vulnerable to strike action by unions. Do we really want to go back to the bad old 70's?

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

link
I detest Corbyn & don't want railways renationalized but I hate the EU and all their rules that they impose on us so I'm really conflicted over this.......:D

---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 17:05 ----------

Spare us from this moronic, deluded dinosaur:
link
:banghead::rolleyes:

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Which they pretty much do anyway. Besides the largest part of investment in the Rail network still comes from the Government.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Links please.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I don't have a breakdown of it but I find it hard to believe that this isn't the case when HS2, Crossrail and National Rail are all government funded (although National Rail obviously gets money from the franchises). I mean where do the train companies have signifiant investment in the network? It seems only in rolling stock.

Just last year the Government announced £38 billion in more investment aside from the aforementioned projects: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/p...lways-unveiled

Every large scale investment comes from the Government.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

There's a shedload of difference between a major infrastrucure investment such as HS2 and the day to day investment in the rail services that people actually use.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Would that be a railway shed though? :)

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Just spotted this on a website that lists upcoming TV progs on UK TV.:D

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

You better invite all your friends around then.;)

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Clarkson would probably do a better job than Corbyn. :D

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

It's pretty controversial if you're old enough to remember what British Rail was like! Strewth, would you really want to go back to filthy trains, underinvestment and inefficiency, not to mention the catering!

In any case, nationalisation of the railways would be against EU rules, so I'd love to know how Mr Corbyn thinks he could pull that off!

Fortunately, we won't need to worry about that as the electorate will never allow this man to have any position of power in this country.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Why does it have to go back to that or anything else, we had a public railway on the east coast which made money for us and had high levels of customer satisfaction.

This article, if factual is hard to ignore in spite of its bias

http://actionforrail.org/government-...fore-election/

as is this one about how we botched the origional sell of

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...says-Tory.html

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

do you remember when it was affordable to use the train ?

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

Even Conservative supporters are in favour of renationalising the railways so if it was renationalised then it would get pretty widespread support across the country.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I remember when trains were disgusting, perpetually late, frequently cancelled, subject to regular strike action and the network badly run down. All that was achieved during BR's time due to lack of govt. investment and the required will to build a decent network. Would it be any different under Labour? The party which, despite all their promises and huge borrowing, failed to build council houses and dithered for an eternity about the future of our power generating capacity to the extent that we're still at risk from blackouts in the not too distant future. Trust them with running the railways? No thanks.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

A lot of countries around Europe have nationalised rail companies and pretty good railways. I don't think nationalisation is the answer to everything, not even most things, but privatisation isn't always the answer either.

In the UK we do have a tendency to religiously assume that going private is always better no matter what. Even if it means coming up with really convoluted schemes to try and implement it in industries which are not a natural fit for it. The rail network in Britain is a mess. We have the network itself owned by the state after the privatised firm collapsed, we have had a number of cases where the state has had to take over failing franchises, we had that scenario with the West Coast Mainline being won with an absurdly optimistic bid from First Group which was only overturned on the eve of a court case brought by Virgin Trains.

Competition should be the main driver of effectively, investment and better services but the tender process means that doesn't really happen. People can't elect to use a rival service so it's only the Government who judges the competition and they tend to pick the biggest bidder irrespective of the qualities of the bid. So now the franchise has a set amount of time to turn a profit on the line whilst providing the service and returning money to shareholders before they have to hand it back! This is hardly a good approach for long-term investment by the operators is it?

It seems to me that it has become a mantra that privatisation is good and nationalism is bad that allows this to continue. I wonder if other countries are as obsessed with this fight between the two or if they have gotten over it and just decide what to do on a case-by-case basis.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

The hand-back of East Coast and the debacle over the West Coast franchise both had the same root cause: civil servants in the DoT who were utterly hopeless. In the case of East Coast they drafted a franchise agreement that put all the risk on the State - it simply begged over-optimistic franchise bids because the winning operator had the option to hand back the franchise and walk away if they later found they couldn't make it work. On the West Coast the civil service was simply inept and created a tick-box bid assessment process that wasn't able to weed out obvious accounting tricks that appeared to show First could generate a bigger return to the State than Virgin (despite Virgin Trains' 20-odd years' experience of actually running the line), except of course that the big returns were all way back at the very end of the franchise period, giving First the chance to make like National Express and simply hand it back, without the promised returns ever materialising.

DOR ran East Coast competently but registered consistently lower passenger satisfaction than Virgin West Coast and returned half as much money to the exchequer per passenger mile as South Western. It has been impossible up to now to say empirically how good the State really was at running the East Coast because there was no comparable private operator on the same route at the same time. However I confidently predict that Virgin will improve on DOR's performance over the lifetime of its new franchise on the East Coast.

Re: [Update] Jeremy Corbyn wins Labour Leadership
 

I don't disagree with any of that but I think it highlights the weaknesses of the franchise system. It gets decided in a backroom somewhere with the forces of competition never coming into play - surely a key part of why privatisation has worked elsewhere - and no one really knows where to place the blame for poor service due to the myriad of sectors involved in the entire thing. It feels liked a messy way to try and privatise a service which isn't a natural fit for it.

There must be a better system than this. Even if it doesn't involve nationalisation I think we have to revisit it.