Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Tell me you don't seriously think the nutters will do that in the face of increased satire.....please?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

No.

But if it wasn't that, they'd try and kill us for any other number of reasons because ........newsflash.......they don't like us, our religions, our culture and our general way of life.

So if we desist from publishing material that offends them, they'll take offence to us drinking and no doubt fire bomb pubs next. Do we ban drinking then? Do we make all women wear burkas because a bit of flesh offends them?

No doubt Marty the appeaser would approve of that.

We should not alter our behaviour one iota.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Have there been any instances of that?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Close. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Closest to that I can come up with quickly is:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...a-Islamic.html

And:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...n-Muslims.html

With various examples of threats and some low-grade violence.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

No firebombs (as per the example) or deaths suggests maybe they don't consider it as much of a jihad-worthy crime against Islam.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

near where I live there have cases of Muslims harassing girls due to their lack of clothing. Not forgetting the whole organised sex rings.

But fire bombing pubs no, I was speculating.

---------- Post added at 17:49 ---------- Previous post was at 17:47 ----------


Not yet.

Of course, ISIS and some African factions will just kill you for being non-Muslim. actually ISIS will just kill you regardless.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Pretty amused that, despite being part of the problem apparently, my position on this is largely supported by the former Archbishop of Canterbury, who advocates actively encouraging media to publish controversial material regardless of potential for causing offence to some Muslims.

That must make Lord Carey part of it too, so at least I'm in good and wide-ranging company :)

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

OK. So bringing it back to the original point are you going to be surprised if further attacks and killings on media outlets occur if the organisations increase their satire against Islam?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I already answered that.

I wouldn't be surprised that there are any future attacks. It would seem that attacks are planned and foiled all the time.

Some get through.

What they're pinning their reasons for the attacks on doesn't really matter.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

So if I'm understanding this right, you're in favour of our response being something that is likely to goad them in to more killing and attacks?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

No, I'm in favour of us being able to print, say and do anything we want within the law.

Regardless of how a certain section of society may perceive it.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

No.

it's a bit like little Johnny keeps getting his sister into trouble.
"Mummy... Louise is annoying me again!"

Only instead of mummy shouting "Will you stop annoying him or I'll ring your bloody neck!"
she now says "Oh shut up will you. you were playing with each other 2 seconds ago. either play together or I'll ring both your bloody necks!"

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

i dont like mummy

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I don't think these nutters are really offended by cartoons, I think they're offended by the west and values they don't happen to agree with in general. They do however need a rallying cry - something which will resonate with Muslims in general and something the can use to 'justify' their actions with. If we stop publishing cartoons of their prophet they're not going to give up the fight and resume normal life happily with the rest of us, they'll simply focus on the next thing on the list that they decided grievously 'offends' them and justifies mass murder. That's how different they are from most of us.

As I've said many times before, anyone who doesn't believe in their ideals is a target and being a different type of Muslim is no protection as that poor French police officer found out. Kow-towing to their demands isn't going to solve the problem, it'll simply result in ever more extreme demands, ever more pressure to change our values and way of life in order that they may not be so 'offended' - give an inch they'll take a mile...

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I'm not that keen on mine. either.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

So regardless of the possibility it'll likely lead to more killing of innocent people?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Yet

---------- Post added at 19:06 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

Do you honestly believe that they are not going to kill any more innocent people if we never publish those cartoons again, because if you do then you are mistaken. They loth us with ever inch of the souls and no matter what we do they will continue to kill us in the name of there god and for any reason they think they can use. That's the way they see there religion any excuse to kill the unbelievers

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

If you're allowed to praise something, then automatically you should be allowed to criticise it.

Strange that Muslims are only too ready to criticise and offend, but complain when the same is done about their behaviour. It gets suppressed by being called Islamophobia. Eg When non-Muslims complain about the imposition of halal produce does anything happen about it? Does anyone take any real notice?

There have been examples in THIS country when GROUPS of Muslims have set out to kill a random non-Muslim. What is their reasoning?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

They're going to kill us because their religion says to.
They're going to kill us because we've made them look stupid on TV.
They're going to kill us because millions of people are making a stand against them
They're going to kill us because they're nutters.

They're going to kill us regardless.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

So it's acceptable for us to do things that will deliberately provoke them?

Agreed 100%

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

The muslim world is a rainbow of different shades and types who really do hate each other. If the non-muslim world could stay out of their way, they would make a fairly good job of attempting genocide amongst themselves.

But it would appear that the non-muslim world is fair game under their "convert or be killed" policy. And also by the insane babblings of some of their religious leaders.

And when terror is exported to the non-muslim world, and attempts are made to stop them training for terrorism in muslim lands, both by the countries' leaders and "The West", it is seen as an attack against Islam.

That ramps up bad sentiment even more.

On both sides.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

:clap:

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Their aims

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Who had the people in the bakery offended, what doodles had they scribbled

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

probably un-Islamic bread making

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

It was a French magazine, not a bakery :erm:

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Well it was a Kosher bakery so you might have a point

---------- Post added at 19:41 ---------- Previous post was at 19:40 ----------

Pay attention, if you did you'd notice them killing people regardless of what media outlet they subscribe to

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Remember way back when, Russ, you mentioned me ascribing rationality to irrational actions? You're doing the same thing attributing cause and effect here I feel. For sure what Charlie Hebdo were doing painted them as a target but I worry that the bigger picture is that there are a whole series of targets and they were merely top of the list.

If it's not offending the prophet it's the actions of our armed forces. If it's not that it's daring to behave according to the laws of our lands in areas they claim to be Islamic. If it's not that....

There's always some excuse for these guys to behave as they do. The basic tenets of their religion are terrifying, which isn't surprising given where they came from.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I am paying attention, the attacks took place at a press outlet not a bakery, it's been all over the news in the past few days...

The fact is people seem to be in favour of responding to the killings in a way that has been proven to provoke a reaction. It seems like people are willing to pay the price of more killings as long as it means we show the nutters they can't stop our 'freedom of speech'.

Which, in anyone's language is ludicrous.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Police surround kosher Paris supermarket
9 January 2015 Last updated at 15:07 GMT
A gunman has seized hostages at a kosher supermarket in Paris, while police in northern France have cornered the two Charlie Hebdo massacre suspects.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30739510

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

As an addendum to that a couple of Wikipedia entries that may give my viewpoint on the whole freedom of speech argument more clarity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relativism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocentrism

I go to Saudi Arabia, smuggle in beer and bacon, and start munching and drinking in public I get what's coming to me, because I'm not ethnocentric and don't expect my actions to be judged in terms of my own culture. Loathsome as I find Saudi Arabia's culture if I go to their back yard I'd have to play by their rules. Same bag here, whatever people who think they're liberal may say.

On that note it's astonishing how many people I've read over the past days who consider themselves liberal because they are largely left-wing in their economic viewpoints, think gay marriage is fine, are all for mass immigration, etc, but when it comes to freedom of speech think that the 'right' to be offended should trump it. They really don't grasp that they are being every bit as fascistic as those they would profess to despise.

---------- Post added at 19:58 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

I prefer courageous.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I don't mean to sound patronising but you've truly shocked me with that.

---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:04 ----------

OK let's all go around provoking the terrorist element in Islam and not bat an eyelid when they retaliate by killing innocents :shrug:

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Dear oh dear do you not realise they'll be killing anyway, how on earth you equate killing innocents or even the guilty for that matter with any form of provocation is beyond me, the terrorists are the problem not the cartoonists and no blame or guilt should be apportioned for said terrorists behaviour to them

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Do YOU not realise that although they kill anyway certain responses will paint even more targets on our backs??

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Even more than is already there, let them do their worst, chances are they'll do it anyway, I'm not going to live in fear of them or change anything thing I do to accommodate them and if people think pandering or appeasing them will stop them or even put of the inevitable for long then they're as deluded as the nuts getting killed for virgins.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

:clap:

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

So if we stop the cartoons and they kill more innocents because there religion is offended by the next reason they can find. Should we then stop that as well. I am offended by them killing innocents i bet they don't stop killing in the name of there god however.

The time as come to stop giving in to them because something offends them from a story book that was written years ago. They live to a book that related to a time where life was cheap and they still think it's ok to kill in the name of that book and there god. Then you wonder why i have no truck with religion.

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:29 ----------

:clap:

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

You don't believe in those freedoms?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Is anyone suggesting we 'pander' to them?

Do you think the people at the magazine would still be dead if they hadn't run those cartoons?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Are you so afraid?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I believe in using freedoms wisely. Everyone goes on about the "right to freedom of speech". Not many people respect the responsibility of free speech.

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------

No.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Maybe not but its inevitable that those two would have killed someone in the end. Did the copper die because he published the cartoons btw. What was the reason for the shop killing did they publish the cartoons or were they just unbelievers who should be killed.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Well considering they the fundamentalists are offended by everything we do from women wearing revealing clothing,to dancing and playing/listening to music,drawing/painting the human/animal form as well as not being Muslim it's pretty hard to see how less offensive we can get.

Seems to me that satire and ridicule is a very good weapon against such thinking.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Pretty sure they will find more than in your post to offend them if needed ;)

They get so easily offended by anything they remind me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chOtJdiBZR4

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

You are by suggesting we should run our lives around them and their potential reaction.

The people in the bakery didn't run any cartoons and considering Charlie Hebdo has been targeted before I suspect they had a pretty good idea it would happen again, the editor Stephane Charbonnier even said as much after the first attack three years ago and said the thought of it wouldn't stop his work.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

No, I'm not.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

What is irresponsible about tweaking the nose of terrorists through satirical cartoons.

Been done throughout history.

From Napolean to Hitler to the IRA. Why should Islamic terrorists be treated any different?

Well you certainly come across as being worried about it.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Something that's just been suggested to me:

Those who feel so strongly about free speech and that the media should en masse publish these cartoons - why not put your money where your mouth is?

Why not publish them online yourselves with your names and addresses? That'll show them, right?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Perhaps if you did say things like this

people might not think you are

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Looks like you are from where I'm sitting.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

If I was referring to myself I'd have made that clear.

So how about it, post the cartoons online with your name and address?

---------- Post added at 21:53 ---------- Previous post was at 21:52 ----------

As above, you too?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Yeah, yeah. Typically stupid suggestion when you can see your credibility slipping away.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

In fairness it was suggested to me by someone else on the forum. Don't you think I have a point? If you're in favour of showing the nutters they can't stifle our free speech I'd have thought you wouldn't have a problem with it.

Or is that 'different'?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

For those in this thread that think we are the ones that should give into them.

Why did they kill this person
Did he offend them and should we now not let police on the streets for fear of offending them

So now we must not shop for fear of offending them

No jogging i am afraid it might offend them


Quotes from here

http://news.sky.com/story/1396559/pa...-well-deserved

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Nobody is saying we should give in to them.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Post them where, on a site that'll get no visitors, hardly comparable to national press printing them, besides given my online footprint is tiny I'd rather put copies of them up in my window, it'll garner more views, what's the point your clumsily tip toeing round as usual anyway, you think people are just mouthing of about how strongly they feel about this and will sulk away to a corner to hide with the panderers when put on the spot?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

But if they are trying to kill someone just out jogging what are we supposed to do. Those religious nut jobs just wanted to kill and the cartoons were there excuse. If we don't publish any more cartoons i can more or less guarantee they will find something else to kill for.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

So why have you not put them in your window? Maybe set up a Facebook page and forward it to everyone you know? It'll soon get around plus you'll be doing your bit, if everyone did the same it'll soon get noticed. Surely you're not suggesting 'free speech' only applies to the media?

I'm just suggesting they practise what they preach (pun unintended) if they feel so strongly about this.

I mean I'm obviously not calling people cowardly but you'd have thought there'd be no issues with doing something like that right?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Because firstly I've never called for the media or anyone else for that matter to re print them and secondly I don't have a facebook account or don't these things matter, that said I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of supporting such a proposal or showing my support for the Parisians.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

It's the classic move when having a debate such as this.

Those that argue for in-action can prove their case for doing nothing, by doing nothing. Even though the potential outcome of doing nothing is very dangerous.

They can then goad those that call for action, to undertake action - even though all we are doing is debating the issue - and if no action is taken they claim victory.

Not putting their money where there mouth is...................

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

That'd be a pretty low thing to do, cheap point scoring over an issue such as this when the bodies are hardly even cold

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

No. I've called you out on your words and now you're back-pedalling.

And that's just it, I've not suggested we "do nothing". In fact I've not suggested anything other than people think of the consequences of their actions.

There has been little or no 'debate' about this - the vast majority have suggested the media gets in the terrorists' faces and up the ante. If someone supports that sort of action (as is their right) then at the very least they ought to do their bit, rather be an armchair expert safely in their own homes.

This reminds me of that bit in Life of Brian where John Cleese's character issues the orders but won't take part in the kidnapping because he has a "bad back"....

---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

Cheap point scoring? I'm asking you to back up your words with actions, that's all and the fact you seem to take issue with it speaks volumes.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Is it ok if I do it on here?

how do I know you won't come and kill me?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

You don't show up high enough on my personal radar for me to care. Seriously, I won't.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

It's a rather odd way of me taking issue don't you think, by offering to show my support and now I'm asking you to show me where I asked for the media to reprint them

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

So I can post a funny picture of Mo/Muhammed with a few words. and my address?

and you promise I'm not high enough on your kill radar. and you won't be inciting racial hatred?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

You don't use Facebook, fine - why not set up a page just for the purposes of reprinting them (and I'm suggesting 'you' as opposed to the media unless you believe the media are the only people free speech applies to?) with your name and address?

Why not set up a Twitter page and ask a few celebs to re-tweet it? Loads of them like to help their followers in that way.

Google offer a free blog to anyone with a Google account, you could set it up that way. Wordpress offer similar software, little or no tech skill is needed.

If you feel as strongly about free speech and not allowing the nutters to gag us as you appear then I'm sure you'll be only too happy to do all that.

Unless of course you feel standing up to terrorism is the job of "someone else".

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

You haven't " called me out"'. Called me out on what?

You don't have the authority to call anyone out on anything. You're nothing but a keyboard jockey same as everyone else on here.

You called the printing of lawful satrical cartoons that may antagonise radical islam as " ludicrous" . So I'm interpreting from that, that you would not print such cartoons

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I've got as much authority to point out the cowardice in someone as anyone else.


No. You're backtracking on my calling you out, to the point of now putting words in my mouth. Just accept defeat like a man.

What I called 'ludicrous' was people being happy to more innocent people to die as long as it satisfies their urge to get one over the terrorists.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I think we should all accept defeat on this.
Russ has found a get out clause.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

They were scared of posting the suggestion here themselves?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

ha, spoken like a true "man" hiding behind a keyboard.

Defeat? Defeat of what? Who am I supposed to be fighting? You? You need to look yourself in the mirror and slap your face. You think I give a toss about you, I think you need to sit down in a dark room and re-evaluate your life.

If you say so.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

You really think setting up a few social media accounts with no views, no followers and no friends is an appropriate way of standing up to terrorism or free speech, if so I think Pierre might have got it about right in his last post after all.

That not with standing I think you might be onto something regarding showing a bit of solidarity for what's happened.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I'm calling it a night on this one.

Some people should remember not to drink on a school night.

Goodnight.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

No idea, I didn't ask.

I'm not the one advocating a certain course of action "as long as it's someone else doing it and not me".

:zzz:

You don't think it's worth the effort to back up your words with actions, that's fair enough. At least you had the testicular fortitude to say so unlike some.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Given the deaths that have resulted i wonder if he would still feel the same had he lived ,more to the point i wonder if the families of all those dead people feel as he did or are they acceptable losses in the fight to maintain someones right to print whatever the hell they like regardless of consequencies.

I reckon most if not all don't actually give a toss about the press' percieved right to print whatever they want ,they just want their loved ones back

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

You are really reaching there m8. :D

---------- Post added at 22:46 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

You are right. Lets roll over and go along with everything these deluded idiots want us to do. Appeasement is the answer :(
The thing with a**holes like this is that if you give them an inch they will take a mile......and that is their plan.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

That's always been their strategy.

just taking offence on something small. expands into bigger things.
those small things that expand. are the strategies of world domination.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

As an aside, after watching the debating going on here, one thing that is encouraging to me at least is the fact, that compared to say 5 or 6 years ago, more people are now much more vigorously defending the Western way of life/values.
This is a good thing, and shows perhaps as time goes by and the Muslims get more 'demanding' that decent society rises up to meet that. I suppose it helps that we're not all now immediately called bigots or racists, or far right nutjobs and immediately stifled as we were if we ever dared to murmur anything under the last administrations regime.

Just an observation, I also think that as more ordinary (non Muslim) people get peed off with the situation, more will question the validity of acceding everything to a people that take offence at anything.

Maybe then, things will start to change, people generally only put up with so much ******** for so long.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

We can only go on his word that he felt what they were doing was worth the risk even after the previous attack and I don't think anyone rational would say their deaths were acceptable, no more than anyone would say that the attacks were a justified response to the original printing.

"I always knew he was going to die like Theo Van Gogh. I begged him to leave France but he wouldn’t." She has also said that Charb never had children because he knew he was going to die, that he defended secularism and the spirit of Voltaire. “I admired him before I fell in love with him and I loved him because of the way he was, because he was brave. He thought that life was a small thing when he was defending his ideals,” she said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannet...#Personal_life

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

It's a good and true point.
we have put up with such a lot from them over the years. and we have tolerated it more due to their colour/race/religion/whatever.

but they have got more 'demanding' until enough is enough.

the truth is. that if they were not of a different colour/race/religion then they would have been told a long time ago where to stick it.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I didn't say that, I just rejected your some what silly idea with to go with something better

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

is it insanity ?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Delusions of self grandeur.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Strong tablets.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Ermmm... is it safe to pop back in here yet or would that offend anyone?... :D

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

its always safe and who could possibly be offended by your presence

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

I am offended because you might be offended, I am sure one of the apologists will be along soon to apologise on my behalf for offending you. :)

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Ok I'll come back but only if I you promise not to behead me if we wind up disagreeing about something... ;)

:D

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Don't worry you will soon know if i start shouting ally snackbar or what ever it is they shout:)

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Nobodies rolling over or appeasing ,both Russ and me have made our views clear and not once have we suggested rolling over or appeasing anyone,it would be appreciated if you show me where it has been suggested that we should roll over or appease.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

New Charlie Hebdo To Show Mohammed Cartoons
The magazine's lawyer says staff will "cede nothing" to extremists, with this week's "survivors' issue" to depict the Prophet.


http://news.sky.com/story/1406541/ne...ammed-cartoons

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

And will the UK media show it?

we need Dave to appear on TV and publicly making his views on this subject.
he can use "The Great British Public" in the statement about us not backing down to nutty terrorists.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/01/1.jpg?

Is that it?
That / He depicts the prophet?
he could be anyone. the bloke who works in the corner shop. the bloke who sells on Ebay?

I don't get it?

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Yeah, that's the one.

Re: Mass shooting in Paris
 

Eventhis weeks Simpsons gets in on it. The final scene is a hand drawn looking Maggie holding a banner saying 'Je Suis Charlie.'