Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If the Euro is in such a state and on the verge of collapse, why would any country want to be a part of it? heh

It's hardly a shining beacon of how to unite countries into a single union, if anything, it's a prime example of what NOT to do.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Exactly.:tu:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Strange, then, how according to the IMF, we have the third highest GDP in Europe, and the sixth highest in the world.

Perhaps, like an ant, we can carry many times our own weight, and unlike the lion, we don't lie about sleeping all day....;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yet the amount we're expected to contribute towards the EU doesn't reflect that..

The EU is fine for ease of trade but we do give up a lot to have that with as well as contributions our identity will suffer.

Personally I can see both France and Germany eventually veto'ing decisions in the future that will effect their own future especially if we withdraw more and more (even without leaving the EU)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well that's almost nothing for you eh? :)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

What are we producing?

manufacturing.

That GDP is going in one direction only.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Fine ... Wake me up when they annexe Austria. If history repeats itself we'll still have time to get those aircraft carriers finished before it all really kicks off. At least then we'd have a use for both of them.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well it's going to be fun watching the Eurovision song contest next year, UK NIL points galour. :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

This is fine, it's nearly as much of a joke as this farce.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Just a thought we (the UK) are being accused of not collaborating but then the French have always collaborated with the Germans (don't mention the war!) :doh:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The French didn't collaborate until the German invasion when they didn't really have much of a choice, although the Vichy government doesn't have a lot to be proud of.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If the collective intelligence/control of 27 countries can't avoid problems like debt/corruption and other nastyness, then I can't see a reason why the EU should exist in the first place.

Perhaps, we as a species simply aren't intelligent, mature, or evolved enough to try unifying people in such a manner.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

.. and the difference now is ?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The difference now is that France are willingly working with Germany and are key allies, that this isn't a occupation, and that this isn't Nazi Germany. :rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

But beside those piffling little differences.....;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Please note I referred to collaboration not occupation - Germany has the economic might, France doesn't (which is not dis-similar to Germany having the military might and France not) so it is not unreasonable to assume that France has in all likelihood allied itself to (or collaborated with) Germany in order to pursue the European project of unity (which is what Napoleon and Hitler strived for but in a different way) - however they both failed as will this attempt to bully the citizens of smaller European nations into submission but like all wars it will take some time and there will be casulties - as always history will be the judge (not me, not you) :Peace:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Germany is actually trying to help the other countries in Europe, it would do quite well on its' own, indeed it would probably be an even larger economic powerhouse if it wasn't being strangled by commitments to the EC. If I was a German I'd frankly be very annoyed about my goverment helping to prop up incompetent governments in Italy, Greece, Spain, Ireland and Portugal. To compare Merkel with Hitler is about as realistic as comparing Churchill to Cameron or a bulldog to a poodle if you will.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Clearly we're not dealing with Nazis or anything like them but there must be some doubt about how the Germans will react and the Franco-German 'alliance' develop if they don't get what they want (and what they may sincerely believe is right for Europe) for whatever reason. They're convinced it's their way or no way after all and the French could well be in for some tougher times as their spending and debt levels come under greater scrutiny.... :erm:

The extent to which there is or isn't a German 'occupation' or control depend on which and how many strings they wind up pulling doesn't it. After what's gone on in S. Europe, I can't see those who're paying the bill not to want to call all the important shots. If this does ultimately boil down to a cosy Franco-German deal, then I can see there being an awful lot of unhappy people in Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc. when it becomes apparent to them that some in Europe are a lot more equal than others.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Analogy : through bad financial decisions, you're completely broke, lost your job and about to lose your house, a kind relative offers to pay your mortgage and in return they manage your budget to allow you to get back on your feet again. Would you really turn that down and instead become homeless?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

There's a great deal of difference between a kind relative, a financial backer who wants to make a quick buck or a political opportunist seeking wider control of your national affairs forever isn't there. In time we'll see which the Germans turn out to be and how they react if/when those economies who've been 'bailed out' recover and decide they want control over their own affairs again.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

France collaborated because they were defeated militarily and Germany took over half their country. Germany is not invading France nor has it got France over a barrel, they need France to help influence member states. This seems to be a mutually beneficial relationship for them.

Germany need the Euro to survive. This is why they are so involved. Their population isn't too keen on bailing out member states who could not manage their budgets and the German government would likely rather not bother if it were not for their own self-interest in keeping the Euro alive.

Either way we cannot keep using Nazi Germany as a window to the motivations of the German people. It's utterly insane. Are some in this country really unable to envision Europe in a context other than WW2?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

"Some people" in this country.....

I lived in Berlin for three years (as a member of the Armed Forces), and having met a lot of Germans then and since, they hate their country's past deeds more than we do, imho.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Quite right, Corrected. Sorry. :dunce:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

How about those who always claim the the EU has, and will prevent war? That is frequently given as a reason to stay in the EU.

Germany has lumbered itself with employment and other laws that potentially make it uncompetitive. The best way it has to cope with that is to burden as many other countries as possible with those same regulations. How many times does a law start off in Germany, only to go on and be an EU directive which everybody has to stick to. How many times have they been stuck with a directive that they don't want, that started elsewhere(eg Britain)?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It's nice to think that Germany is supporting all the small, poor countries out of the kindness of their hearts, donating all their hard earned euros to bail out the Greeks, Spanisn, etc; totally committed to the european ideal ..... so why then are they printing Deutschmarks again ? :dozey:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Do you know the source of this chart. It was my understanding that EU15 term referred to EU members up to Sweden who joined in 1995. If that is the case, then the EU15 back in the 1970s and 1980s would have included states such as East Germany and Austria which suffered Communist problems. Spain in the 1970s had Franco problems too. I don't think either of the regimes were conducive to economic growth.

But, I could be proven wrong

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I didn't say they were doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. In fact if you read my post, it's the one you quoted, I quite clearly speculate into their motivation:

They are acting out of self-interest. This is what countries do when they engage in foreign diplomacy and Germany has a stronger hand than a lot of the EU countries, but that isn't sinister. All countries have their own interests at heart and attempt to do a deal.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The EU15 comprised the following 15 countries: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom.

Given they were under communist rule for part of this period you'd have expected economic growth to improve as they were liberalised, surely?

This is the point, despite being rid of communism and the ever closer political unions the EU-15 continue to fail to keep pace with the rest of the world.

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:16 ----------

Germany are in the Euro because it keeps their exports cheap. If they ever decide that the costs and benefits don't work for them they'll be gone.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Which is why the likes of the Germans and French criticising the UK for doing just that is hard to swallow. We're all playing the same game and looking after number one is what matters most to us all. It seems they expected us to help protect their interests and are rather indignant that we chose not to. They'd have done exactly the same in our shoes.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

So it all comes back to what their self-interests really are .... and so we come full circle

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well, I believe that was one of the arguments in favour of setting it up. I think the World has changed to such an extent that any war between big European states is very unlikely. It's just hard to see any circumstance where a war could break out. Maybe, maybe, between smaller states.

Although I am in favour of seeing how much we can share our defence burdens and costs across the EU. Especially with the bigger countries. It's a difficult proposition but we've made some tentative steps when we agreed to share aircraft carriers with the French. This could help reduce costs across the board.

I do think we should look at ways to work very closely with Europe, some things will be easier to do than others of course.

Nonsense. The better thing to do would be to revoke those laws. If it's uncompetitive it's of little use to them if they inflict those laws onto the EU member states because that does nothing to countries in America and Asia. Not to mention that German is actually quite a productive country anyway.

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

No we don't. There is a massive different between acting out of self-interest using diplomacy and doing so in war.

---------- Post added at 22:28 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

Yup.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The end result could still be the same for the weaker countries - lack of freedom, inability to govern according to the will of the people and being dictated to by another country (or countries)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think those amongst us who believed that we in the EU could all rely on eachother have been shown up for what they are - naive. As worthy a notion as it is, it never works like that in the real world outside Brussels and I predict it won't be too long before the cracks start to appear in Sarkozy's alliance of convenience with Merkel. That's when the muck will hit the fan.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

They can no longer rely on currency level changes to even things out within the Eurozone/EU. It's handicapping their competitors more than they would otherwise be. They wouldn't be trying to damage their own industry, whilst improving that of other EU countries.:rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think you miss understand, I was really after the source of the data so that I could remove the latter members from the figures and look at only the states that have been members since 1973 - it would be the only fair way to look at the effects of the EU on GDP. Anyone can draw a chart to show what they like but I'm more keen in looking at the data. It is bit sad I know but I like to draw my own conclusions

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes, that is just the same - invasion by armed forces and living under martial law, or being asked to balance your country's fiscal expenditure because someone else has to support bailing you out.....:erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Found the data source now cheers

http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/Macroeconomics/

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

A prison is a prison whether you have armed guards or just a locked door.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It seems to me that everything hangs on Germany's fiscal security..but are they able to carry the whole of a federated Europe along with the combined debt of Greece,Italy,Spain,Portugal,Ireland because I can't see many of the other poorer allies in Europe having the wherewithal to help out.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

And, so far as I can see, if the ratings agencies and financial markets determine that Germany can't do that then they'll be increasingly subject to higher interest payments on their debts and have even less ability to tackle the crisis elsewhere.

We mustn't forget that the Germans have done very well out of a weaker Euro so may be feeling a tad more generous right now than they might be if/when things at home become harder and their people start to feel the cuts others are experiencing. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they know full well that this is their only credible course of action and have their fingers and toes crossed hoping that it works.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:confused:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Frankly I cannot be bummed to worry about it..It's all coming down to if my husband's health holds out until he is either made redundant or reaches retirement age whichever arrives first.:erm:
I'm sure Europe will survive one way or another.She always has, through centuries of war,famine,disease and trade. ;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

How can the Lib Dems stay in government after what David Cameron and their Anti-Europe Allies have done!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Because in government they still have some say rather than being the political irrelevance they normally are?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Errrmmmm, yep, that could be it!

Surely nobody expects politicians to be turkeys voting for Christmas. ;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

This looks like ours politicians kissing babies?

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2011/12/67.jpg

So it could be:D:D:D:D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Funnily enough we would've had a referendum is if he'd signed it. I'm yet to be convinced of Dave's new found backbone, my default position with regard to politicians and Europe is that they're all bought and paid for with the prospect of joining the EU gravy train as a mp or commissioner.

Also the consequences of us not being able to do a deal or get just one country to support our position have yet to be established, I fear we could end up being alone in the tent with everyone else outside pishing in.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Oh dear l feel sick.:sick::sick:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I take it Turkey is off the worst time of the year for me then:confused:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

you mean we may have join the rest of the world ;).It may be that us saying no may give other countries the courage to do the same and start putting some limits on the EU's power

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The rest of the World that's already locked into trade blocks and agreements you mean, I wouldn't over estimate the World's desire to have us join in with them, the recent Central America sumit where the USA and Canada were not involved alone should tell you that.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Perhaps we should join the North American Free Trade Association then ?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Cameron had no choice but to take the action he took because of Merkel's insistence that a Tobin tax be applied to transactions passing through the City of London.

It could not have been outside of her knowledge that Sweden tried a unilateral imposition of a Tobin tax back in the 1980's and it was a total disaster which saw their domestic transactional business vanish abroad and with a reduced tax take through Capital Gains tax and almost none from the Tobin tax they had to stem the loss of tax by abandoning Tobin Tax.

It has been tried once on a unilateral basis and was a disaster. It would be again unless globally enforced and as we are unique within Europe as having a global exchange through which flows about a trillion a day in Forex trading, we were uniquely expected to kill our goose which lays the golden eggs.

I have a 100% belief that it would have destroyed the City of London as a major hub for financial transactions and with it would have gone a substantial number of the 1.3 million jobs in the finance area of the City and the 11% of the entire tax take to our exchequer,.

The Tobin tax is designed to curb and destroy speculative trading and can only be implemented if universal or it is a certainty that the business from which we reap so much will go elsewhere.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/workin...7_en.htm#chap3

Cameron was made an offer he had to refuse and IMO it was a political manoeuvre to sideline the UK. If all the others including Germany added their collective bourses and exchanges together they are totally insignificant compared to London in the global world of trading so what others were not concerned about hardly affected them at all and in many cases not at all.

That ploy was to get us out and for no other purpose and now that mission is accomplished I would not be surprised if the Tobin tax as to be applied to Europe isn't a long time, maybe never in coming. Eurex trading futures on German indices has been a long term rival to Liffe (trading futures on UK indices) but even though the are minuscule compared the to Forex flow through London I cannot somehow see Germany killing off Eurex.

Amid the double dealing and back stabbing approach within European politics there is an element that I read about frequently over the past few months. European leaders appear to wish to ignore the fact that Europe is inherently a flawed concept and wish to apply the blame for their dilemma on the contagion of debt problems of which we via our banks and exchanges were a major player. They appear set on wreaking vengeance on the free market approach which in showing those fault lines within Europe is analogous to shooting the messenger but ignoring the message.

Nothing has been achieved towards the immediate resolution of Europe's problems beyond the desired political agenda which will please the core countries and we have been ostracised as was obviously desired.

Contrary to what the inner core of Europe think there is only one player in this farce who matters and judgement will be made and appropriate action taken. In the world of global finance we are as major a hub and in some areas more so than the USA. The direction is set on the other side of the Atlantic and from there will come the eventual judgement on Europe. In politics not a lot happens by accident and we may well one day be more than grateful that Cameron took one for team UK when the French poodle snubbed him.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

What he said.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

All the info i can find ,various blogs ,newspaper articles ect seem to suggest that our trade outside the EU is around 50% of our total trade .I did find this on the hmrc site

UK’s Non EU exports have increased by £1.3 billion (11.6
per cent) compared to September 2011, to £12.7 billion.
Compared to October 2010, exports have increased by
£2.1 billion (19.9 per cent).

•

•

•

3.8 per cent.

and this for EU trade

The value of UK trade increased in September 2011 after a fall in the previous month of August. The value of trade is also greater when compared to September 2010.
• UK’s EU exports have increased by £1.6 billion (13.4 per cent) compared to August 2011, to £13.6 billion. Compared to September 2010, exports have increased by £1.7 billion (14.8 per cent).
• UK’s EU imports have increased by £2.7 billion (17.1 per cent) compared to August 2011, to £18.4 billion. Compared to September 2010 imports have increased by £2.3 billion (14.6 per cent).
• The UK remains a net importer (imports are greater than exports). The size of difference between imports and exports has increased compared to August 2011 by 28.9 per cent and has increased from September 2010 by 14.2 per cent. This is the largest monthly difference during the period January 2008 to date although the July 2011 difference was close - £4.5 billion compared to the current value of £4.8 billion.

I realise that these figures are just a monthly snapshot but can't seem to find a year on graph for the 2 figures to compare

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

About 40%, figures are distorted somewhat by exports which stop in Europe on their way east.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

thanks for the above guys ,those two graphs would suggest that trade outside the EU is just as profitable for the UK as trade within it .I suppose the question would be how much trade would we lose from EU countries should we leave and could we make up the difference with new trade deals

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16122895

Thought osbourne and cameron is being bit premature with these claims.

We simply dont know if it was in britains interest to be in or out. Only time will tell if we badly double dip and europe stabilise then we the biggest mugs living.

We recover they go under we laugh at europe but do we our exports/imports will suffer. Jobs will go so surely saving jobs should been cameron interests not protecting the savages who got us in the mess the banking sector.

Sadly here lies kicker we forced to protect because its only salvation left thats due to years backward politics from tories, blair new labour who stupidly made the country a service industry reliant.

Not enough manufacturing in the country to keep us going if the financial sector decided to up sticks. So like some only way was to protect it maybe we learned the hard way.

To be I would be shocked if they stay they will go anyway to hong kong, malaysia, shanghai, japan anywhere other europe.

They will try find there havens.

Very big testing times who right who wrong I pray to god cameron knows what he doing and pray to god he got the financial sector locked down.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Some people seem to be suggesting that exports to Europe would stop altogether.:rolleyes: Let's just suppose it did, the proposed financial transaction tax alone would cost more than the value of exports to the EU.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Some would not cease trade just because of it. Uk trade still big business to many firms not sure it big impact. However there could be breaks business get which might cause problems. Forging other avenues could be hard to materialise. I heared china suffering due to eurozone that will be big issue.

The alternative is become self sustained but to do that government would need to under cut foreign imports. Tax foreign imports to the hilt making it less desirable but that also hurts the ports/airports job market. Less of evils if we can turn uk into self sufficient.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

We don't have the raw materials to be self-sufficient....

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

i'm not ,i firmly believe that trade would continue ,we may even find it easier to attract foriegn investment without the shackles of EU regulation

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:12 ----------

That is true the only reason we where "self sufficient" in centuries gone is because we took possesion of countries with resources we wanted ,now we have to trade .....or do we ;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well all I know is that my very talented niece who has a very lucrative executive position in her company has moved lock stock and barrel with her company from Brussels to Manhattan..Now I wonder why they did that? :erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

i grow my own Garlic ;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

indeed this why I tell my parents uk as sole self sufficient entity is impossible. You make a clasic point where do raw materials come from to make items.

Only solution if we buy in raw materials but make UK goods it would ofset it abit. Problem would those countries boycott UK if we snubbing foreign goods or taxing too much that they become undesirable.

If its possible we become closet country those we cant deal with get import break.

We could get jobs moving problem I have is many businesses foreign owned that knowhow could be avaporated.

However just shows how dificult it would be. Supose hybrid of both could work.

---------- Post added at 21:34 ---------- Previous post was at 21:28 ----------


Thats lie papa smurf you get all the smurfs to do it for you;)

bet lazy, clumsy, greedy Smurfs right pain in the garden;)

Gargamel thiefs what you grow

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Without the power to control immigration our population is set to continue rising rapidly creating even more pressure on our infrastructure and the resources we do have.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

indeed there is ways to solve it not going to be liked some have ugly nasties.

finances from all countries pooled and distributed on head count by one central banking over observer.

That way way not matter who in the country but its impractable under current factions.

Equally if all econamies was the same pay was universal throughout it lesson issues over financial problems. What distributed then circulated maybe limits on wealth ownership not unrealistic stupid.

All above very unrealistic you wont see one country support the model.

More of realism even then remote would mean more debt which would in some cases sound suicidal but would create spending programme. With money men holding fire on there itchy triggers give governments breathing space. That is the bond holders grow some big ones finally admit they are part of the problem. I think unrealistic for them pressure govenments when those governments need to avert world crash rebalance wealth abit. Its basically chicken and egg scenerio. Austerity only effecting the wrong crowd but the real culprits putting pressure on to deeper cut. However the governments only tried to avert the high unemployment right or wrong the money people stopped investing.

The net result world slowed down goods not being bought to the lengths the world demands. We could argue people lived beyond there means by credit but credit boom was stop this from happening. Effectively we in downward spiral which will not stop until we see action outside governments.

Governments in a position beyond there control just cant do anything as the city trying squeeze life out them. My fear what happens if we cant turn it around.

Future very bleak either governments will conceed power for wiping dept or we heading for the bloodiest world war 3.

It would be great if all world debt was wiped out or at least big proportion we start again learn from the mistakes. It will never happen those who stand to lose fortune would kick holly hell up.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I'm a few G+Ts down the road but does the above make any sense to anyone?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No...

We need a Babel Fish.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

are you suggesting no action should be taken on the cause of the current problems simply because it will damage the city of london? with or without europe I strongly support any action that curbs what the bankers are doing.

---------- Post added at 10:55 ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 ----------

so clegg finally grown some balls and got some morals back.

I wonder how many on this forum export any product or sell services to europe, I get the impression very little do as there is a clear anti eu vibe on here. The fact some are even suggesting the uk could just carry on without eu trade highliughts that.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

That'd be nice but our fisherman are prevented from catching those by European fisheries policy. :D

---------- Post added at 11:08 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

I'm sorry but anyone who thinks destroying the financial sector won't cost lots of related jobs all over the UK is either deluded or being disingenuous. It's all very convenient portraying it as a matter of making the fat cats in London suffer but hundreds of thousands of ordinary people around the country depend (directly and indirectly) on the jobs and taxes which emanate from the City. Tell those people to vote for a Tobin Tax.

I say again - would the French have accepted reform of the CAP as the price they'd have to pay for being part of the new Eurozone regime? Somehow I think not. Expecting the UK to be different is ludicrous.

As for Clegg's supposed 'balls' well I see them shrinking rapidly in due course as the reality of his political position sinks home. Quelle surprise...... :rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

There seems to be a growing movement to have a referendum on Europe ,anyone think we will get one ?.I think that while Cameron is riding high with the British public for using the veto he may as well consolidate his popularity by giving us one

http://news.sky.com/home/politics/article/16127900

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No I am not suggesting that no action be taken, what I am suggesting is that a transactional tax applied to London for what is nearly 37% of all Globex trading in the world will see that $1.3trillion throughput per day go elsewhere and destroy the City of London and put in jeopardy 1.3million jobs and 11% of the treasury total tax take.

It is a certainty that the application of a Tobin tax would turn the City of London into a comparative ghost town and the European inner core would never see the 50billion Euros they theoretically thought it would raise for their benefit. It was a spoiling tactic with no winners and us as the biggest losers.

There is a public anger against the banks and rightly so but it has nothing to do with the operation of the major clearing of Globex trading in the City of London. That operation facilitates global trade and as a facilitating middle man makes a fortune for the UK.

The problems within the banking sector stem directly from the repeals of the Glass Steagall act which was brought in to separate retail and speculative banking arms of banks. In 1999 that was repealed and progressively banks valued themselves including retail holdings of private and business clients and traded massively in derivatives which risked not only their own worth but that of its client base deposits. Something that had kept the banking system safe from the 1930's was thrown away on I believe Clinton's watch and we followed suit. Greed overcame prudence and here we are again with the problems the act was designed to protect against.

The answer is the re-imposition of the measures that served the banking industry for so long which involves a reversion back to the total separation of retail and speculative banking.

For the public it is overly easy once a prejudice has been set for a reaction against anything and everything to do with a sector which invariably means that the good and bad get lumped into a convenient parcel. The public generally are led by one liners and few bother to unravel the details to understand what went wrong and how.

Clegg will never redeem a moral stance as he cannot even keep a signed pledge. He is just complaining because he was left out of the loop and is responding egotistically.

Looks like you may be concerned personally. Vested interests do not make for sound judgements whether it be millions or pennies. We, as a country, have been manipulated into a no win position and the way forward must be for the good of the country which means all of us.

There is a raft of bond sales due in Europe starting tomorrow. Germany's last bond sales in November was a failure and if the summit was deemed to be a failure to address the underlying problems, which it patently was, then the prospect of further escalating problems is fairly high.

Merkel will not\cannot commit Germany's financial might behind the problem and is seeking every solution bar the unpalatable ones to Germany. Therein lies the Achilles heel. Should the markets decide not to buy bonds from European countries, Germany may be isolated in the midst of desperate countries and be forced to act or Europe is lost.

These political\financial strategies are played out over decades and it may prove, in time, that we have lost a battle but avoided being the metaphoric losers of a war.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

We may get one if/when what's going on in the Europe now is agreed and an attempt made to impose/apply a Tobin Tax (and other undesireable measures) on the UK in spite of the veto we exercised.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Bring it on i say.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Surely resisting any "imposition" wouldn't be that hard as we are net contributors to the circus.

They need our money more than we need them.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Our net contirbution pales into insignificance when compared to the debt problems so many EU countries face. To survive the EU needs to tackle its spending and continue borrowing at affordable interest rates. In that context our direct contribution to the club is irrelevant and if we don't soon cut our spending we'll be in the same boat as Italy.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It doesn't work like that, by being in a bloc when a country like the US goes all protectionist and hikes up tarriffs to favour it's own people the EU would do likewise on a US export, it doesn't really have the same impact our little island doing it by itself.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It will cost jobs in the short term no doubt, however I think the financial sector has clearly damaged other sectors. It is a trojan that needs to be dealt with. The statement "not in britians interests" I didnt like, as the whole idea was it to be europe's itnerests as a whole not just our own country. Seems a selfish attitude.

One thing I will concede on is its clear the population here is anti europe tho, not perhaps as one sided as on this forum but a defenite majority. So ultimately if the people dont want it then on that basis cameron did the right thing, but he didnt say it for that reason he said it for the city of london.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If only there was a worldwide "General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade", now covered by the World Trade Organization (WTO).:rolleyes:

Let's suppose it did happen. It's unlikely that the UK on it's own would have a big enough negative impact in the first place for anybody to feel the need to take that sort of action. It would be more likely that the EU would pose a problem to the US, simply because of their pig-headedness and hatred of the US. In that instance the UK wouldn't be on the receiving end of any US actions. So will people stop talking total and utter nonsense about possible outcomes that are never going to happen.:mad:

We never had(nor will have) any input to any proposals, so not submitting to Berlin's demands won't have a negative impact on any potential influence. Simply agreeing to what Berlin says, is not having influence.:rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes it had but decimating it now doesn't undo all that's been done does it?

We should be working to keep the City and banks (much of which we now own via RBS and Lloyds/HBOS) at the top of the pile whilst making sure that the sort of dubious practice the govt. of the time and FSA so miserably failed to identify/deal with can never happen again. Perhaps regulation by the B of E will be more effective. Anyway, I'd far rather see the City's massive taxes used to help rebuild the industries it damaged here than see it and the money it generates benefit other countries.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Thats just it we have no control soon things get warm in europe they will move there head offices to asia markets anyway. Infact go far saying UK needs to prepare for the worst case scenerio that the financial sector will walk out london. those banks we own is'nt garanteed either especially when the governent believe selling it off. Once gone they lose that security of keeping them here.

Yes there was the danger but that danger not gone away because cameron went to bed with them courted them. Motto is never trust banker cameron should heed that warning very close to his chest.

There lies the issue we simply too scared to take them on. I think its toss up who right like said by god if cameron loses what he protecting then the help from EU.

Personally way I see the lesser of two evils was possible accepting the agreement but thats personal opinion.

Fear this one will bite cameron up the backside.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I find it difficult to believe you think that, as, by your previous posts, you have been an avid supporter of Cameron and the Coalition....;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well at first I was actually half supporting the move I was in two minds but more think about it 26 v 1 looks very dangerous odds.

Look at another way if we are right we still lose if we are wrong we still lose but lose very badly.

Thats what basing me feelings on we may as well conformed. Was the gamble worth it I not sure it was.

The other is it not best interest to help eurozone out

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It would undo it over time.

There is no way to deal with it without them crying over it and leaving or at least threatening to leave which ultimately would make the government back down. The government needs to stop been afraid of the banks, call their bluff.

Its evident how powerful they were back at the time they won the overdraft charges case, the system was simply too scared to make them hand billions back to consumers.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

They don't like it up 'em!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Even though I went to a great deal of trouble to type out the differences between the manner in which the banks caused the problems and the effects of what is proposed via a Tobin tax would have, I appear to have wasted my time.:(

The would be no threatening to leave involved at all. Tomorrow the banks start quoting pairs prices for currencies on the global Forex markets. If London carried a Tobin tax nobody would deal with them and pay the tax but instead would use American banks as market makers.

From the global leader, London would be finished from the opening bell of the first day of the unilateral introduction of such a tax. The 1.35 Trillion of capital flow through London markets would be instantly stopped and with Britain closed for that type of business the international banks wouldn't threaten to leave, they would just leave and relocate that business, most probably to America.

We are nothing but a tiny little island in a world of globalisation. Within that area of finance we punch well above our weight and are the global leader.

Failure to understand what we are privileged to be the central hub for and confuse the issue with high street banks charges is hard to describe in words without being insulting. Perhaps if you took time out to think about the different aspects of banking and separated the good from the bad you may understand why Cameron had no choice.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Once again you are letting your understandable dislike for Fred the Shred and his ilk cloud the issue and conflating fat cats, the City of London, the financial sector as a whole and the high street banks. At the same time you avoid the issue of what happens about all those thousands of distinctly non fat cat jobs nationally which depend (directly and indirectly) on the financial sector as a whole. Do you want those jobs lost and the billions the tax payer has put at risk in RBS, HBOS back or not? You can't have it both ways.



---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:20 ----------

:clap:
Very well explained but I doubt it will make any difference sadly.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The problem you posted was they up and left sweden right?

I wouldnt care less if they left the UK. Germany seems to manage ok without financial institutes,

---------- Post added at 07:46 ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 ----------

It may sound odd to you but no I dont want people remployed in the financial sector, its a trojan horse. Instead I want this country back to manufacturing and IT. That sector the way it makes its money is just overkill capitalism which everyone else bears the cost for as unequal wealth spread. The terms I would let them stay has already been stated as unacceptable to those bankers, its already been made clear to me in this thread that the bankers would up and leave if they were made to share their wealth more, thats the morals of those institutes.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

What sounds odd to me is that you would sacrifice tens of thousands of existing jobs and billions of tax revenues when you don't have a clue if/how, in the real world, those jobs and revenues could be replaced at a time when large portions of the western world are stuggling to manufacture and sell their goods and we're already looking at more of the same. :confused:

In your haste to blame the 'bankers' for everything and tendency to conflate issues, once again you also ignore the public's considerable investment in those banks - do you want that back or are you happy to chuck our money away with a whole lot of other people's jobs?

You can argue all day about some sort of socialist Utopia but we are where we are and you have no answers to the above questions just a desire, seemingly, to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

That's because Germany still has a manufacturing Industry

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

They will do their business somewhere, so it might as well be here. Even if they stayed here, the proposals would take BILLIONS out of the economy, just so that the UK can be forced to help prop up the Euro, despite not being a part of it in any way. We already contribute via the IMF, and separately helped out Ireland.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The sooner it happens, the better!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I am very confident the financial sector has lost far more then tens of thousands of jobs elsewhere.

The publics investment isnt really an investment, its a handout. It looks clear there is no chance of that money been recouped especially with the sale of NR at a loss.

We need a system reset, which involves pain. Not some sort of pretend fix which involves attacking the sick.

The size of the financial sector compared to the damage its caused is small.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I must say that your 'argument' seems more based on blind, irrational and misplaced revenge for what's happened than about the best way forward at this time. You're now saying that because jobs have been lost (due to a combination of a spendthrift government, an ineffective regulator and a relatively small number of very greedy people at the very top of part of the financial sector) it's quite OK to sacrifice yet more jobs and money. All this despite the fact that UK PLC needs both greatly right now given the massive amount of debt and spending we're wrestling with. You totally ignore the fact that the damage you speak of has been done but then seek to rub salt in the wound it's created in revenge.

You say we need a 'system reset' as if you're talking about your phone NOT one of the world's largest economies and seem to think this can be done at the flick of a switch and in complete isolation from the rest of the world and the global financial system. You talk about lost billions and jobs as if they don't matter - as if they're all going to be the fat cats you loathe when in fact the vast majority of those jobs will be ordinary hardworking decent people who're struggling to get by. We give away our financial sector and what it generates and just create viable, long term manufacturing jobs out of nowhere seems to be your sole argument.

Finally, you glibly say the Germans 'seem to manage OK without financial institutions'. Are you for real? Go and tell that to the financial institutions based in Frankfurt - yes Frankfurt - continental Europe's largest financial centre which the Germans are highly protective of and would love to expand. You really need to check your facts you know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt

Anyway it's pointless debating an issue with someone who refuses to let facts get in the way of his argument so I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes because my view is future growth will be permanently damaged unless one of 2 things happen.

1 - regulation introduced to restrict profits in the financial sector.
2 - Financial sector disbanded.

How much of the country outside of the financial sector is been damaged by the focus put on it.

Agree to disagree.