Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Obviously the above are mostly over the top stereotypes of fox hunters, and as you say 70% of Tory voters are against fox hunting and are satisfied with the status quo.
The above are not helped by the type of people generally sympathetic to hunting, Otis Ferry for example, in any bodies book a fine example of a chinless wonder;) who comes across as completely obsessed by hunting with hounds.
As for the current batch of Tory MP's the vast majority want to repeal the ban, and for the first time in decades their is now a minister responsible for "hunting and shooting"...if this isn't a sop to the countryside alliance then I don't know what is.
So with most voters, up to 75%, against repealing the current legislation against fox hunting, irrespective of which party they voted for, many of the above comments having a dig at chinless tories are well justified seeing as Tory MP's are quite content to go against what the majority of their constituents and the country think.
So much for the new tory party...what was it Ken Clarke said the other day? "if we ignore what middle England wants we are finished"

I know you have no great love of fox hunting foreverwar, but now your in that insidious position of defending your party against the indefensible...I remember it well:) Iraq war, foundation hospitals, tuition fees and many more.
I imagined it would be a good few months down the line before you'd have to do it though.:)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I voted conservative and i am totally anti fox hunting. I was an activist in the past when i was younger and if i was fit enough now would certainly do it all again and that includes my time before the beak for walloping a huntsman that attacked me with his crop.:mad:

I even upset the officers in my Regiment for driving a tank right through the middle of there hunt of Salisbury plain when i was training new drivers :LOL:

Fox hunting is NOT about animal control. Fox hunting is all about SPORT and is carried out by a bunch of barbaric animals of all classes.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

froggy, I am not, and would not think of, defending the Conservative Party if it put forward a bill to repeal fox-hunting - I have no issues about disagreeing with policies, both privately and publicly. It's not "my country, right or wrong" - it's "my country right or wrong; when right, to keep it right; when wrong, to put it right."

I was, in fact, pointing out discrepancies in people's statements re "rational" and "non-classist", which, unfortunately, you reinforced with "chinless wonder". ;)

btw, in yesterday's Times

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

No, I wouldn't. I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your nan, and if that happened then I'm sure she would have been well within her rights to sue the hunt organisers.

Well a fox attacked and severely injured one of my pet cats, I have no love for foxes.

This happened to me, and I live in the country




---------- Post added at 09:08 ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 ----------

My point is the law selective, singling out one objectionable pursuit yet freely allowing other objectionable pursuits to continue.

You should either ban them all, or not at all

---------- Post added at 09:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 ----------

Define "middle England"

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

One issue many anti fox hunting people probably have the most problems with is the people on the horses. I know many people who own & ride horses, none of whom hunt with hounds.

Chasing foxes is a more instinctual and natural thing for a hound to do. Same as a bird of prey catching wildlife. Or a greyhound chasing a hare.

It is the voyeuristic pleasure taken by the humans involved which is the main issue IMHO.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Where are the examples of non-classist rational objections against fox-hunting that you said you were posting. You seem to have missed your point. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 12:18 ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 ----------

I shall hold my breath, baited with anticipation.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Ooops. The Flyboy irony/sarcasm flags might have to get another airing.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Well some one's missed his point that's for sure ;)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Okay, pray tell, what was the point of the post? Was it to show that there was less rational objections? If it was, why point it out, seeing as my post already made that assumption. Was it to show me that my remarks were not in context? Unlikely, because they were clearly so. Was it to show that some people do not like Tories or upper class twits? Well, I think we knew that already, didn't we? So, like I said, he seemed to have missed his own point.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

You stated
I then provided examples (my apologies for not stating that I was being ironic, but most others seemed to understand) of anti-hunt posters whose comments could not be classified as being of "those who rationally opject to its existence".

Could you point out where those who support hunting (of which I am not one) issued cries of classist behaviour? Have they called non-supporters "oiks" or "commoners"? Or is it that they stated their belief that the New Labour Government had spent an inordinate amount of Parliamentary time to focus on hunting using "class war" rhetoric?

btw, may I point out that using the phrase "crazed perverted bloodlust" in your post might not be classified as "rational". ;)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Someone in this thread asked if any of the anti hunt people have been to a hunt, Unfortunately yes i have. I have watched members of the Cheshire hunt bay and scream at the kill. I have seen them spread the blood of the kill on youngsters faces as an initiation ceremony. The sport has no other purpose than to give a bunch of screaming baying idiots pleasure at seeing an poor animal that has had to run for miles for it life ripped to shreds by a pack of dogs. Mean while the barbarians who are watching are having a grand old time and applauding how humane they think they have been. :2up:

Personally i would love to see the dogs turn on the huntsman but that would not be fair game would it. :mad:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

There have been a few street fights like that in Belfast over the years!!

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Indeed :)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

why don't we have hunt the terrorist instead ??? leave the dam fox's alone

---------- Post added at 17:43 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------

and please anybody who says a fox is a pest and verim needs to be shot , who decided they were this way anyway oh i know the morons who had nothing better to do at the weekend than play lord and master of the countryside , muppets thats all they are

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

You probably started most of 'em!!;)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The SAS were good at that :)

---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

You know me to well ;)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

i rather think it's the people who are incapable of building a fox proof chicken coup ,that seems to be the main factor in bringing it back ,

"the vermin keep getting my chickens"

we are supposed to be the superior species on this planet so building a fox proof chicken coup shouldn't be beyond the wit of man

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

But that would spoil fox hunting the SPORT

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

:LOL:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I don't see anything wrong with fox hunting, and the killing there of.

I regularly use demestos to kill microscopic organisms by the billion.

I regularly kill flies, spiders, woodlice etc with the base of my shoe.

I caught and killed 2no. moles this year that had been making a mess of my lawn.

I have caught fish and killed them, sometimes eaten them sometimes not.

I regularly kill mice via traps and poison.

I have eaten the meat of a whole range of animals.

Is it just because because people see the fox as a lovely little fluffy bag of fun, who also used to be Robin Hood that they get so wound up about it?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

However I am sure a local cricket club would far rather have to spend time collecting fox droppings than have the hunt ride over the pitch in pursuit. :Yikes:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Has this ever actually happened (besides one instance of an EarthFirst report, which I can find no other validation of)?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I find it laughable that in thread people keep throwing in these specific incidents, I don't know if they are true are not.

But if this is the case then the Cricket Club would have grounds to claim from the hunt organisers.

Just because, in the past, an errant hunt mistakenly trampled a cricket pitch is not ground to ban the activity.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

your from yorkshire so its not your fault

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Let me ask. When you killed these moles, mice, fish, various insects and other organisms, did you go after them with a full compliment of horses and dogs? Did you have those dogs running amok killing whatever small animal they actually find including family pets (which does happen)?

The reason I ask is simple. As I have pointed out, I personally have no problem with the foxes being killed (they *are* vermin). What I take issue with is the fact that hunts try and make a spectacle of the death. That, to me, seems sick and quite possibly an indicator of being a serial killer.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

That's quite funny coming from someone who has just likened a fox hunt to using Domestos to kill microscopic organisms.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I live in Yorkshire, I'm not from there.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Quite possibly the most outrageous statement yet, serial killers derive pleasure from killing animals themselves at a young age in some cases, only 2 of the huntsman even see the kill and non should be participating in it.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I don't see what the method of death has to do with it.

With the moles I used a Mole trap, which no doubt meant that the mole had quite a painful and agonising death.

Fox's run amok and kill family pets. The common family pet cat is a favourite quarry of a fox.


No it's a sport, that may or may not result in the death of a fox.

Like it or not it's a tradition of this country, much like bull fighting is to Spain

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ----------

Incorrect,

You failed to get the point of the post.

The point was that people, and I'm sure many people on this thread that object to fox hunting, kill, or by way of their lifestyle, promote the killing of many various lifeforms everyday of every week.

Just because the fox looks similar to cute dog, they get all emotional about killing one.

It's much the same way people get all emotional about Whales, Dolphins, Polar Bears and Pandas, whilst 100's of other not so cuddly species go extinct every year.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Wrong. Many people on here have stated that they don't object to the killing per se. It is the manner in which the killing takes place that they object to. To claim that people object because they are furry animals is simply misrepresenting what people have said. To then compare it with the killing of organisms that don't even have a nervous system thereby suggesting that 'a kill is a kill', so if you can do one then you should be able to do the other regardless of the manner is just silly.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I started the point with microscopic organisms at the extreme end, and then went up the scale to insects, mice, moles, fish, farm stock etc.

You know this, as you were supposed to have read the post. So don't just cherry pick the bits that you want to back up your point.

I suppose that being trussed up by your hind legs and then getting your brain fried by an electrical pulse is an acceptable manner to be killed then?

Or just cutting the animals throat whilst the life drains out of it, is also ok.

Being killed instantly by a pack of dogs isn't though?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

One dog, apparently...

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

As with all things, perspective is key. There are issues of necessity, availability of alternatives, and degree of unnecessary suffering involved which together determine what is and is not acceptable. It seems to me that few people doubt the necessity of culling foxes. What they object to is the degree of unnecessary suffering given the available alternatives.

And yes, there is a degree of double standards, regarding the fluffieness of animals. Probably one of the most inhumane way in which we kill animals is what we do to industrially caught fish. We take them out of their element and just leave them to die. Not many people get worked up about that, because they don't see it, and fish aren't very fluffy. We tend to get worked up about mammals. I'm not sure whether that is very relevant to this thread though.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

As I stated, it's the method I object to, not the killing. If they just wanted the fox dead, they wouldn't bother with the whole hunt. Just a single man with a shotgun.
Not denying that. I have said that foxes are vermin, and I am quite aware of what they do.
Slavery, imperialism and Racism are also traditions in this country. Doesn't mean they are right.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Talk about tugging at the extremes in order to make a point, I thought I was bad.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Please can someone explain why all the people on horseback are required to chase the fox, when the hounds are the ones leading the way and cornering the fox? Then one of the hounds does the killing, not the horses or the people riding them?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Because that's how they do it.

Explain why a man with a cap dodges a bull and kills it slowly by inserting sharp items into its spine??????

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Oddly enough so do hunts.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Why? When I find such actions just as inexplicable.

However, in all the many and sometimes contradictory points in favour of fox hunting I have never heard a rational explanation for all the people on horseback.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Really!!!!!!!.............


My response was to such a statement, please keep up.

---------- Post added at 12:42 ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 ----------

Because there isn't one.

They're out for a day out on their horse. They're out for a ride. They all chase the fox because it gives them something to chase after. That's all.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Yes, I'm well aware of that. The video footage was for those, unlike yourself, who may not be aware of such mishaps.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Poor kids, didn't like this line either

As the law stands, hunts are not held liable for the actions of their hounds.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

But there's nothing stopping them doing that now, is there? It's just that the fox needs to be replaced.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Still not sure what the point is.

An unfortunate incident, where an innocent pet was killed by people undertaking a pastime.

I suppose if someone was out for a leisurely drive in their car or on their motorbike and ran over a cat we'd all be reeling back in shock and horror, and calling for driving for enjoyment to be banned.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I believe that Fox hunting, being a Londoner is down to the individual, in the countryside, and l cannot see why it was banned in the first place, If l was farm owner and saw foxes killing my stock, it wouldn't need dog to kill it, l would shoot it myself.

I have worked in the lovelly countryside and seen what foxes do to cattle and other animals, and it is heartbreaking, l was in Ledbury, Glos once and came across protestor's against fox hunting, and they were a pain in the backside, but it should not be up to outsiders of the country side to decide what should happen, it is down to the people that live in this surroundings, and we should keep our noses out of it.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

True, Just that I don't have any objection to them chasing the fox, as they have done for hundreds of years.

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 ----------

What's that Arthur? Democracy and common sense?

You're in the wrong country mate

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Exactly! All the outrage about the fox hunting ban boils down to this. They have managed with clay pigeons, just need to find a similar version for horse riders who like a chase.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The point is, as you go on to point out, that this was in your estimation..

I don't think so, unless of course the persons in question went out with a collection of their friends all similarly dressed with the express intention of running over a cat in the guise of it being a sport of some sort.

That might raise a few hackles.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

They don't go out with the intention of killing a cat, it's fox hunting not cat hunting.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Where as of course your fox is quite happy to kill a cat...

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I think that was Mr. A's point in response to your question if people would call for recreational driving to be banned in response to the accidental killing of a cat through recreational driving.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Unless there is a coordinated national sport of running over cats using cars or motorcycles that I'm not aware of then I'm afraid that's a not very good try at flawed analogy avoidance there Pierre.

You introduced the idiotic notion of people perhaps calling for a ban on leisure driving in the event that someone ran over a cat whilst out on a leisurely drive. Assuming that the "leisurely drive" is the prime motivation for them being out on / in a motorcyle or car then one might reasonably assume that they did not intentionally go out to run over a cat.

As for fox hunting (the clue is in the name) as you kindly pointed out above it is the intention to chase and kill a fox - there is a very clear difference between the two situations. Trying to justify "hunting" by drawing analogies involving accidents is really clutching at straws.

On the matter of straws...with a straw poll of even just the posters partaking in this thread / debate I'm pretty sure one will find that the public will afford the accidental death of an animal as a result of leisure driving a greater degree of sympathy / understanding than a planned organised quasi ritualized hunting and killing of same - especially by those they view (rightly or wrongly) as "toffs" or whatever.

EDIT...

Danielf - got there before me!!

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I think it's a good analogy.

Show me where there is a "coordinated national sport of hunting cats using dogs".

I go out on my motorcycle with upto 10 others all wearing the same kind of clothing. If we run over a cat should we be lambasted for it??

The hunt is not after cats, they're after foxs, if a cat is killed it is an accident

Why??? both are accidental. The hunt doesn't want to kill a cat, it doesn't go out with the express intention of killing a cat.

You pushed the whole cat angle anyway.

Well that's sort of my point

---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

It is,

I've had a fox "intentionally" attack my cat strangely they never seem to do it by accident.

I've never had my cat attacked by a hunt.

---------- Post added at 13:47 ---------- Previous post was at 13:45 ----------

Well it wasn't was it, becuase his response implied that hunts were intentionally going out to kill a cat.

Anyway I think the cat angle is skewing the debate somewhat

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Does anyone know if there is a "Well now, that obviously went right over your head" emoticon / smilie available anywhere?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The biggest difference between a vehicle killing a pet and the hunt killing a pet is in location. Vehicles (except for irresponsible green laners) are on the public highway or a designated track. The hunt goes willy nilly wherever the fox may take them. The former is a controlled situation the latter comparatively uncontrolled.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

You asked:

and Mr. A. replied:

Simple Q&A really...

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Christ it's not difficult is it?

Try to get your brain around it.

I did indeed ask
In which I was making the point that if a group of people went out and "accidentally" killed a cat whilst pursuing a leisure activity would we want to ban the activity they were pursuing.

Understand that bit? Good.

Mr A then replied

Ok now focus on this bit:


Thereby implying that a hunts express intention was one of killing a cat.

This will be a really long debate if we have to waste several posts whilst their meaning are explained.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I used to go fox hunting in my days as a single man. Didn't catch many foxes, but did end up with a moose or two :)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The irony of this is, if you live near a hunt location, and legally own a shotgun, (Clay pigeon shooting use) and was to shoot any hunt dogs who were in your garden ripping to pieces your pet. You would get done for animal cruelty.

Go figure

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Is it cruel to kill an animal humanely now as well? Jeeez the RSPCA have been doing that for years now and for reasons a lot less valid than having your pet ripped to pieces.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Sadly, it would appear that it is. You have, as others have pointed out, entirely missed / misinterpreted what I have said.

For the avoidance of doubt let me explain.

At no stage whatsoever did I mention or suggest or bring to the debate the issue of fox hunts killing cats, accidental or otherwise.

What I was referring to was the baseless, and frankly rather idiotic, anology which you introduced of third parties (leisure drivers) accidentally killing cats whilst out driving ( driving, not hunting) and your question as to whether people would call for the ban of leisure driving.

The difference being that the leisure drivers might accidentally kill a cat ie, they do not go out with the express intention of killing cats whereas hunts do go out with the express intention of killing foxes. Note the two different intentions , contexts and animals involved.

Indeed, please do.

Pierre, with all due respect, you did not mention "accidentally" you posted "I suppose if someone was out for a leisurely drive in their car or on their motorbike and ran over a cat we'd all be reeling back in shock and horror, and calling for driving for enjoyment to be banned".

It was me who made the distinction between the accidental nature of the analogy you presented and the intentional nature of the premise of a hunt (in killing foxes, not cats I hasten to add).

Here's hoping.

No, I'm sorry but you are wrong. That is exactly not what I was implying.

My statement "I don't think so, unless of course the persons in question went out with a collection of their friends all similarly dressed with the express intention of running over a cat in the guise of it being a sport of some sort" was in direct reply to your analogy "I suppose if someone was out for a leisurely drive in their car or on their motorbike and ran over a cat we'd all be reeling back in shock and horror, and calling for driving for enjoyment to be banned.

Nowhere in your analogy about people being out for a leisurely drive in their car or on their motorbike do you make reference to a hunt and, similarily, nowhere in my reply do I make reference to a hunt having the express intention of killing a cat.

What I made reference to, in the context of leisure drivers, is the lack of legitimacy of your analogy. I assumed that you - and indeed everyone else, based on the common knowledge that hunts don't tend to use motorcycles or cars as a primary means of transport during the course of the chase, would have understood that my reference to cats was not made in relation to hunts per se.

Leisure drivers who accidentally run over cats (or any other animal) do not generally do so in a coordinated fashion

Quite, hence I hope that my, and others, attempts to explain to you what was actually being said is not in vain.

Let's move along now.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Would be an intresting test case, I wouldn't be so sure that you would end up being prosecuted for it.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Well it's a pit of a poser for the animal lovers who so want to prevent cruelty to the poor old foxes..by shooting a defenceless animal that is only doing it's masters bidding...seems a tad hypocritical to me.However when I think of Hunt saboteurs of the past who attacked the horses used in the hunt one wonders what their motives really were..but if you are doing it because you hate 'toffs' remember this.The majority of people who are involved in foxhunting aren't toffs.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

On the contrary

You posted a link to a family pet being attacked by hunt dogs

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35025576-post342.html

I said that it was:

I then offered the analogy of other people undertaking a pastime and accidentally killing a pet

The issue being discussed at this point was about pets being accidentally killed by hunts.

you then countered that statement with

We were talking about pets not foxs at this point, and you what you posted is clear.

And immediately before that on the same post. I wrote:

Do youn think by that I was implying it was deliberately????

Eh, it is clear the whole thrust of my point was that the killing of a family pet by a hunt was an accident. Therefore, the unfortunate event of an accident is not reason enough to be calling for the hunts to be banned.

That is all.

Well that's how it read.

Well if you can't join the dots in your head that the point I was making that going on a hunt or going for a leisurely drive are two recreational pastimes.

And if during one recreational pastime using horses a family pet is killed invokes one reaction

and if during another recreational pastime using cars or bike a family pet is killed invokes another kind of reaction.

Gladly

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Pierre, at no stage did I mention, suggest or bring to the debate the issue of fox hunts killing cats, accidental or otherwise. You introduced the cat analogy.

The animal referenced in the link I provided is what is known as a "dog".

Allow me to elaborate in order to assist you with your particular quandary; cat and dog.

They are two very different species.

Evidently you are still having issues with the interpretation of statements made in basic english and relating same to the time / order / context in which those statements are made.

This seems to be an issue peculiar only to you in this thread. You are entirely, and I suspect intentionally, continuing to miss the point in an attempt to save face.

You said....

"I suppose if someone was out for a leisurely drive in their car or on their motorbike and ran over a cat we'd all be reeling back in shock and horror, and calling for driving for enjoyment to be banned".

And I replied...

"I don't think so, unless of course the persons in question went out with a collection of their friends all similarly dressed with the express intention of running over a cat in the guise of it being a sport of some sort".

Others have also pointed out the fact that you have misinterpreted the gist of my posts - move along.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The foxes are fighting back!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQfS6...layer_embedded

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Did you spread the blood of your kills on the younger members of the group and bay and scream like a maniac as you watched the death of said animal. Did you trespass on other peoples land whilst in the pursuit of you sport, Did you also kill other innocent animals in pursuit of your sport, Did you attempt to hit innocent bystanders that got in the way of your horse whilst carrying out your sport. You see i have seen all of this happen by the local hunt here, That's the way the hunt acts when it Carry's out its SPORT

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

This is done during deer hunting as well which involves a humane shooting rather than chasing down animals with dogs.

Are you against that as well?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

No because that is quick and humane. They are not ripped apart by a pack of dogs having run miles to try and escape while so called human beings watch and cheer

why do you think ripping an animal apart with a pack of dogs whilst people get entertainment from it is good. ???

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

So blooding when the death is quick (mostly) is OK but when the death is via dog its not OK :confused:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Blooding is not my problem here to be honest. My point is killing an animal with a pack of dogs that has chased the poor animal for miles and then have so called human beings bay and scream with the entertainment there derive from it.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Does have images of spectators at a Lions versus the Christians in ancient Rome.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Trust me i have seen them. It is truly a barbaric sight. The smiles and laughter sickens me to the core.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I find it rather sad, this is thought about so early since the election.

A couple of nights ago I seen 2 foxes out in the street, a rare and nice sight, they played with each other and then walked around for a bit.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I never attacked a horse or coursed injury to a horse. I never purposely attacked a huntsman however they did attack me and i have defended myself against them, they have tried to run me over with there horses, Tried to run me over with there 4 x 4's.

I know that its not just toff's that attend these sporting events and it is plain to see for those have have attended these sporting events. Maggy have YOU attended one of these sporting events because if you had you would be sickened to the core by the barbarism of it all.

For those here who are defending fox hunting and have never seen the barbarism of the sport may i suggest you go and see instead of assuming about what happens from the news. That way you can make a better judgement because if more people were to see this sport for what it is they would not support it.

My motive is to stop a fox from being chased until it is exhausted and then while a bunch of so called humans watch and cheer have it ripped to bits by a pack of dogs. I will never attack the horses that are used for the sport Is that clear enough for you ????

http://hsa.enviroweb.org/index.php/n...vicious-attack

http://www.crueltyexposed.co.uk/inde...ting&Itemid=50

http://www.crueltyexposed.co.uk/inde...lery&Itemid=62

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I wonder if the huntsmen would derive the same sick pleasure if they were the hunted and the dogs were allowed to rip them to pieces when caught.

If you have to get your jollies from watching such a spectacle as watching a fox being ripped to shreds then the has to be something wrong with your mental makeup, and nothing can excuse that.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Indeed :clap:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

If people pinned down their objections to hunting properly it is clear the law as worded missed the point entirely. What is abhorrent to most is the people on the horses. Dogs, ferrets and birds of prey doing what they would do naturally is not the real problem.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The huntsman can at times be extremely violent

http://hsa.enviroweb.org/index.php/n...t-october-2009

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I would say for the same reason as why thousands pay to watch it happen, for the same reasons why several people on horseback chase an exhausted fox to near death, just to watch it ripped apart.

---------- Post added at 23:23 ---------- Previous post was at 23:15 ----------

What utter tosh. They do it for the blood lust and nothing more. If this was the case why did they need to a fox; why not drag hunting? They do it, because at the end of it, a terrified exhausted animal is mauled to death and they will be there to watch it.

---------- Post added at 23:26 ---------- Previous post was at 23:23 ----------

Why was it heartbreaking? Surely not at the thought of an animal dying.

---------- Post added at 23:27 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------

There has been an alternative for years, it's called drag hunting.

---------- Post added at 23:33 ---------- Previous post was at 23:27 ----------

Of the many hunts I have attended with other hunt saboteurs, I have never witnessed any anti-hunt demonstrator harm a horse.

---------- Post added at 23:58 ---------- Previous post was at 23:33 ----------

Yes, it's all done very humanely. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPFJq1spYbs

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

And across the past 30+ years I have seen reports in the newspapers and on TV reports that horses have been attacked and distressed..Tho' of course papers can lie..


Are you saying you are a hunt saboteur?You have definitely gone even lower in my estimation than before.:erm:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I have been in the past so you better add me to that as well :rolleyes:. I stand by what i have done and would do it again given half the chance. If you think hunting is good then you have dropped in my estimation.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I never said it was and I suggest you pull your neck in...

What I dislike is the attitude that culling all wildlife is wrong and the violence acquainted with the hunt saboteurs.It's completely unnecessary.

All the emotive crap that comes out over fox hunting hides the facts that foxes can outbreed and outgrow their food supply in an area.When that happens then foxes will become unhealthy as a group and control is needed.They are NOT a fluffy cuddly animal.They are a predator at the top of their particular food chain.I also am absolutely positive that a good half of the anti hunt group are just wanting to spoil some toffs weekend fun rather than being on the foxes side..:rolleyes:

I personally think fox hunting is NOT the best way but so far no one on either side of the divide has actually come up with a workable idea to control fox numbers.

Perhaps it's time for both sides to stop placard waving and actually think logically and scientifically about the situation? or is it just easier to fall back into the same old patterns?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I have been in the past, but I no longer have the time to spend on the front lines. I am a little aggrieved that you feel the way you do and do not consider your assessment of me to be every fair. At least I was prepared to stand up and be counted on behalf of something that cannot do so for themselves. Why do you view me in such a light, because I was opposing the abject cruelty of an animal who was never in a position to be able to do it for themselves?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

So what are YOUR suggestions for controlling fox numbers?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Not that my answer should make a lot of difference, but it is accepted by many that the fox population is by and large self-controlling. In fact, there are many areas of the country where hunts were having to nurture the fox population, because there were not enough of them to hunt. One particular hunt, a few years ago, over did their cub-hunting to a point where they had actually run out of foxes for three years and had to import them from another part of the country.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

simple answer NO

Anyone that has actually attended a hunt instead of reading about it on the web or in a book will know that its not all toffs as you put it that attend and take part.

Its been tried but the hunts will not under any circumstance consider any proposal that does not include there right :rolleyes: to watching a animal get ripped to shreds for sport. Drag hunting they say is not sport. They will not consider any alternative that does not included some form of blood letting.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

How many with anti-hunt views have actually attended hunts though Sirius?
Very few I would imagine, and you have to agree with Margret that many of them just view it as something toffs do and are really only interested in spoiling the fun of said percieved toffs?
We've seen that by many of the posts in this very thread.
You can split the anti-hunt people into those who don't care who they stop hunting as long as they're stopped, and those who only want to stop hunting because they percieve it as tory toffs enjoying it.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

What evidence have you to support your theory that their ONLY motivation is class led?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Why don't you re-read my post, try and find the point which you nearly always miss, and see if you still need to ask that question flyboy?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

This was the part of your post I was referring to:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

What is the difference between people watching one animal ripping another to shreds such as Dog/Cock fighting (banned for some long while now) and sitting on top of a horse to do much the same. Why does being on a horse make the spectacle any less barbaric or any more sportsmanlike. Surely we humans can move on from such bloodthirsty spectacles.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Sorry Angua, I'm not sure how that relates to my post?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Was trying to show I am neither anti Toffs or necessarily anti hunting :)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

:clap:

I don't care who or what side of the divide the huntsman are on. I want hunting banned.

I have been to a good few hunts in my younger days and i did not care if those that were doing it had a spoon in the mouth or not. I cannot stomach the fact that these so called humans take pleasure in seeing an animal hunted down by a pack of dogs and then ripped apart for there pleasure and gratification. i dont think i can make it any clearer than that. Simples

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Got any links and how do urban foxes fit into those stats?Because frankly they overbreed round here.The locals adults are suffering heavily from mange as well.

---------- Post added at 14:21 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------

So do you have any solutions to controlling numbers?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Shooting for one. But then that takes a bit of knowledge and expertise something the hunters on horses leave to the dogs to do, They are more interested in the sport and the pleasure of seeing an animal ripped asunder for the gratification than animal control.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Well shooting could turn into a sport as well and if it's left to inexpert hands surely just as much suffering can occur.

I'm personally looking for a rather more scientific answer myself..one that is truly painless.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

From the Burns report:

There was also a report compiled about six or seven years ago that showed that foxes are biologically predetermined to not breed when the density of population cannot be supported by the food supply. I don't have a link for it now, but I will try and find one soon.

There is a theory the urban fox population increased over the last twenty to thirty years to escape the hunts in the countryside. My theory includes this, but adds that the nature of our lifestyles produce more food waste and therefore a extra temptation and a continuing food supply. I currently cannot find anything to suggest that the urban fox population has increased significantly over recent years.