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-   -   The existence of God (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33647435)

Maggy 03-04-2009 10:24
Re: The existence of God
 
about half an hour ago I was just thinking of suggesting we got on topic and here we are back on topic.

Well done...;)

Hugh 03-04-2009 10:25
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767812)
Yes of course, you can construct a theory to fit anything. This is an issue for physicists, I'm failing to see how god comes into it.
Dark matter, dark energy - these have been postulated to fill the gaps; whats the difference between these and "faith".

downquark1 03-04-2009 10:27
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34767813)
You make me smile sometimes. :)
Why?

It's this old spin trick: "Look the scientists are uncertain - they know they are WRONG!"

or

"LOOK the scientists are unquestioning - they are dogmatic!"

Russ 03-04-2009 10:29
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767812)
Yes of course, you can construct a theory to fit anything. This is an issue for physicists, I'm failing to see how god comes into it.
If you specifically don't want to see it then you never will.

Hugh 03-04-2009 10:29
Re: The existence of God
 
No one has said they are wrong - they are saying why don't we look at other options.

It would appear it is (imho) you who are "spinning" by trying to make everything black and white, when it is, again imho, a voyage of discovery.

downquark1 03-04-2009 10:30
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34767817)
Dark matter, dark energy - these have been postulated to fill the gaps; whats the difference between these and "faith".
Yes and no. Dark matter and dark energy are name for the numbers we use to balance the equations to make them work with what we see. We know something is causing these effect we just don't know what.

Or the laws are wrong, in which case we need to discover new ones.

Chris 03-04-2009 10:30
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767818)
Why?
... because I suspect there wisnae a trace of irony intended when you posted, in a thread about the existence of God, that questions about the origin of the universe are "... an issue for physicists, I'm failing to see how god comes into it."

;)

downquark1 03-04-2009 10:33
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34767823)
... because I suspect there wisnae a trace of irony intended when you posted, in a thread about the existence of God, that questions about the origin of the universe are "... an issue for physicists, I'm failing to see how god comes into it."

;)
Well even if we find a perfect answer that does not "disprove god". Even if god did do it there's no reason we can't discover "how".

This is god of the gaps theology.

Hugh 03-04-2009 10:34
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767822)
Yes and no. Dark matter and dark energy are name for the numbers we use to balance the equations to make them work with what we see. We know something is causing these effect we just don't know what.

Or the laws are wrong, in which case we need to discover new ones.
I'm sorry, you obviously can't see the irony in that statement - it would appear it alright for physicists to have "faith" in something that "makes things work", but not for others to have a different sort of "faith".

downquark1 03-04-2009 10:37
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34767821)
No one has said they are wrong - they are saying why don't we look at other options.

It would appear it is (imho) you who are "spinning" by trying to make everything black and white, when it is, again imho, a voyage of discovery.
What do you think cosmologists are doing? People are paid to do this. They don't sit on their asses or go out preaching preexisting conclusions.

---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34767828)
I'm sorry, you obviously can't see the irony in that statement - it would appear it alright for physicists to have "faith" in something that "makes things work", but not for others to have a different sort of "faith".
Yes and no, there is a PHYSICAL measurable number of unknown origin.

If you loose £100 from your bank account, do you go looking for where it went or do you shrug and say it was an act of god? Or do you say there is no money missing?

---------- Post added at 11:37 ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 ----------

And we don't have faith in dark matter its a name given to something we have yet to find out.

And we are looking.

Hugh 03-04-2009 10:37
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767793)
That second website has discovery and " Christian Research " institutes finger prints all over it.

The first website sounds like the typical whining when someone is denied funding. I really don't get this idea that scientists resent new ideas. New ideas when proven correct make a scientist rich and famous, it also opens up new areas of avenue to get your name into the books, you can work out a constant or an equation and get your name stuck on it, old ideas tend to be already saturated.

This is not to say that the big bang theory is definitely correct. But merely there is a lacking of alternatives at the moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767830)
What do you think cosmologists are doing? People are paid to do this. They don't sit on their asses or go out preaching preexisting conclusions.
Sounds fairly like preaching preexisting conclusions..... :D
btw, I think cosmologists are mainly "sitting on their asses" - they sure aren't out at the Large Magellanic Cloud.....;)

Chris 03-04-2009 10:38
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767830)
If you loose £100 from your bank account, do you go looking for where it went or do you shrug and say it was an act of god?
False dilemma.

And please have a read of this. ;)

downquark1 03-04-2009 10:41
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34767835)
False dilemma.
True, you could do nothing at all or go into denial.

Chris 03-04-2009 10:42
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767836)
True, you could do nothing at all or go into denial.
Or you could accept that it's perfectly possible for you to do both - that is, go looking for it, whilst believing the original theft to be an 'act of God'. ;)

downquark1 03-04-2009 10:48
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34767834)
Sounds fairly like preaching preexisting conclusions..... :D
btw, I think cosmologists are mainly "sitting on their asses" - they sure aren't out at the Large Magellanic Cloud.....;)
There are multiple reasons for why someone is denied funding. They maybe untalented or the committee has no confidence they will find anything.

Perhaps I should qualify what I said. There are of course always alternatives, but to be taken seriously they must account for known observations and make correct predictions the existing one can't

---------- Post added at 11:48 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34767839)
Or you could accept that it's perfectly possible for you to do both - that is, go looking for it, whilst believing the original theft to be an 'act of God'. ;)
Well you could, or you could suppose that the banking system or the rules of arithmetic have spontaneously failed.

idi banashapan 03-04-2009 11:03
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34767821)
No one has said they are wrong - they are saying why don't we look at other options.

It would appear it is (imho) you who are "spinning" by trying to make everything black and white, when it is, again imho, a voyage of discovery.
I said the same thing about the Beijing tower thread that lead onto the events of 9/11, but that didn't seem to work for you there - what's changed??

Hugh 03-04-2009 12:59
Re: The existence of God
 
I feel that the difference is that one is a discussion about competing peer-reviewed scientific theories which use the scientific method to arrive at conclusions, and the other is based on paranoid ramblings of conspiracy theorists who bend the facts to fit their hypotheses (imho).

But you probably already knew that.;)

Maggy 03-04-2009 13:15
Re: The existence of God
 
I think we have digressed enough so back on topic please.

Gary L 03-04-2009 15:18
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischievious (Post 34767675)
Since I have to point out the obvious.....?

Why?
Why what?

Quote:
Also, you consider EARTH as collosal, I was expecting the universe...
I meant the universe. a collosal explosion in the universe?

---------- Post added at 16:12 ---------- Previous post was at 16:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34767724)
Now you see, a good example of me willing to accept some of your theory but you not willing to accept any of mine.
If anything Russ, it's me partly accepting yours. not you accepting mine.

---------- Post added at 16:14 ---------- Previous post was at 16:12 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34767766)
I thought that in space no one can hear you scream..or explode?:D

Is it possible to have noise if there is nothing there to begin with and there won't be until after the big bang?:scratch:

Thinking like this can only make my headache worse...:)
There had to be something there in the first place. you can't make something out of nothing :)

---------- Post added at 16:18 ---------- Previous post was at 16:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34767768)
a) There is no sound in space, as there is no medium for sound to travel through
b) There wasn't a "down here", as up there was just being created.


The universe came into being 13 billion years ago (approx), whilst our Solar System formed approx 5 billion years ago - two different events.

And you appear to be confusing physics with metaphysics.
It's all just guess work. all these so many billions of years.

Russ 03-04-2009 15:19
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767954)
If anything Russ, it's me partly accepting yours. not you accepting mine.
Let's look at that in a little detail shall we....

Nothing you've posted would indicate you are willing to accept the notion of a creator deity (ie not just the Christian God).

On the other hand while I don't agree with a godless creation, I believe the Big Bang was the moment God said 'Let the be light' (I recommend Dan Brown's Angels and Demons, it might open your mind a little...).

So I will go along with the Big Bang theory to a point. I haven't seen any indications of you agreeing to some sort of creation deity. Yet.

downquark1 03-04-2009 15:33
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767954)
It's all just guess work. all these so many billions of years.
so so

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe
You can easily put lower limits on the age based on the assumption the universe cannot contain anything older than itself.

Gary L 03-04-2009 15:34
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34767960)
Let's look at that in a little detail shall we....

Nothing you've posted would indicate you are willing to accept the notion of a creator deity (ie not just the Christian God).

On the other hand while I don't agree with a godless creation, I believe the Big Bang was the moment God said 'Let the be light' (I recommend Dan Brown's Angels and Demons, it might open your mind a little...).

So I will go along with the Big Bang theory to a point. I haven't seen any indications of you agreeing to some sort of creation deity. Yet.
I don't have a theory as such. I'm questioning the other theories.
You said you prefered the theory of the Big Bang was the moment God said "Let there be light" after I told you the theory about the Big Bang. it wasn't my theory you were partly accepting.

Hugh 03-04-2009 15:35
Re: The existence of God
 
It would seem to me that someone is arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than supporting a proposition.

Russ 03-04-2009 15:40
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767969)
I don't have a theory as such. I'm questioning the other theories.
You said you prefered the theory of the Big Bang was the moment God said "Let there be light" after I told you the theory about the Big Bang. it wasn't my theory you were partly accepting.
Ok now that's confusing because here you seem to be leaning towards one particular theory (if you're not describing the Big Bang with that post then I apologise) but now you're saying you don't have a theory.

Curious indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar
It would seem to me that someone is arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than supporting a proposition.
You might be on to something there...

Gary L 03-04-2009 15:47
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34767970)
It would seem to me that someone is arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than supporting a proposition.
Try reading the original post prior to the questions after.

Russ 03-04-2009 15:49
Re: The existence of God
 
Huh??? :disturbd: :spin:

Gary L 03-04-2009 15:52
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34767971)
Ok now that's confusing because here you seem to be leaning towards one particular theory (if you're not describing the Big Bang with that post then I apologise) but now you're saying you don't have a theory.

Curious indeed.

then some say that it was the Big Bang that created the earth. and if that is the case then God didn't create it so there can't be a God?

It wasn't my theory. it was someone elses. I pointed that out to you.
In the other post you are referring to, it shows that if anything I am partly agreeing with yours.

Quote:
You might be on to something there...
Hmmmm.

Russ 03-04-2009 16:01
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767980)

then some say that it was the Big Bang that created the earth. and if that is the case then God didn't create it so there can't be a God?

It wasn't my theory. it was someone elses. I pointed that out to you.
In the other post you are referring to, it shows that if anything I am partly agreeing with yours.



Hmmmm.
OK you seem to be getting a bit mixed up here. I said I support the idea of a Big Bang theory to a point as it's when I believe God said 'Let there be light'. Your reply that you prefer the 'let there be noise' theory indicates you don't agree with that. If I've got that wrong then I apologise but to be fair you haven't exactly made it easy to follow your trail - you did say you preferred it.

So to eliminate any confusion, where do you stand on the notion that God (or any god) created the universe?

Gary L 03-04-2009 16:05
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34767983)
OK you seem to be getting a bit mixed up here. I said I support the idea of a Big Bang theory to a point as it's when I believe God said 'Let there be light'. Your reply that you prefer the 'let there be noise' theory indicates you don't agree with that. If I've got that wrong then I apologise but to be fair you haven't exactly made it easy to follow your trail - you did say you preferred it.

So to eliminate any confusion, where do you stand on the notion that God (or any god) created the universe?
I think it's all baloney.
is that plain enough and sufficient to clear up all the confusion? :)

Russ 03-04-2009 16:07
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767987)
I think it's all baloney.
is that plain enough and sufficient to clear up all the confusion? :)
Yes, thank you, it also confirms what I said earlier about my accepting some of your theory but you accepting none of mine.

Next? :)

Gary L 03-04-2009 16:09
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34767989)
Yes, thank you, it also confirms what I said earlier about my accepting some of your theory but you accepting none of mine.

Next? :)
Next is it wasn't my theory to agree to.

:rolleyes:

:)

Russ 03-04-2009 16:11
Re: The existence of God
 
Post #319, in particular this bit...

Quote:
If anything Russ, it's me partly accepting yours. not you accepting mine.
...you're partly accepting my theory, yet you call it all baloney, apparently I'm not accepting your theory even though it was never your theory to start with...I think I need a lie down...

papa smurf 03-04-2009 16:12
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34767663)
Some suggest the Big Bang was the moment God said "Let there be light" - that's the theory I prefer :)
at the time of the big bang there was no light because there was no stars they came much later .

Gary L 03-04-2009 16:19
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34767995)
Post #319, in particular this bit...



...you're partly accepting my theory, yet you call it all baloney, apparently I'm not accepting your theory even though it was never your theory to start with...I think I need a lie down...
Partly accept. you used the word accept. not me :)
Let's move on.

Hugh 03-04-2009 16:20
Re: The existence of God
 
The amusing thing (imho) is the that Big Bang hypothesis was first proposed by a Catholic Priest (who was also a scientist).

---------- Post added at 17:20 ---------- Previous post was at 17:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768003)
Partly accept. you used the word accept. not me :)
Let's move on.
arf arf.....

Your post #319 "If anything Russ, it's me partly accepting yours. not you accepting mine"

Gary L 03-04-2009 16:20
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 34767998)
at the time of the big bang there was no light because there was no stars they came much later .
If the bang was sufficient enough. wouldn't that be where the light emerged from?

xocemp 03-04-2009 16:22
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34767995)
Post #319, in particular this bit...

...you're partly accepting my theory, yet you call it all baloney, apparently I'm not accepting your theory even though it was never your theory to start with...I think I need a lie down...
I refer you to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34767970)
It would seem to me that someone is arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than supporting a proposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767969)
I don't have a theory as such. I'm questioning the other theories.
You said you prefered the theory of the Big Bang was the moment God said "Let there be light" after I told you the theory about the Big Bang. it wasn't my theory you were partly accepting.
So we have a better understanding of your stance on the topic, can you tell us to which theory you sway more to, or, if indeed you take no side to a theory, how about sharing your theory or thoughts on the subject or parts thereof.

As for me, I'm with Darwin :)

Gary L 03-04-2009 16:28
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768009)
So we have a better understanding of your stance on the topic, can you tell us to which theory you sway more to, or, if indeed you take no side to a theory, how about sharing your theory or thoughts on the subject or parts thereof.
I would and could but you can't see my posts.

lucy7 03-04-2009 16:30
Re: The existence of God
 
Im confused, to all these posts now...........anyone else?

I have even confused my self with my own posts I think!!!

Russ 03-04-2009 16:30
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768012)
Russ and I want to move on.
Excuse me! I'm quite happy to point out where you've double backed on yourself!

edit: ahh, you've removed that part now. Wise move... ;)

xocemp 03-04-2009 16:32
Re: The existence of God
 
Don't avoid the question Gary, you know very well that I can see your posts.

Your thoughts/theory or to which theory you subscribe even if in part would be nice, rather than you picking holes in others thoughts.

Would the honorable gentleman supply us with a thought or theory?

Gary L 03-04-2009 16:35
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34768017)
Excuse me! I'm quite happy to point out where you've double backed on yourself!

edit: ahh, you've removed that part now. Wise move... ;)
? removed? are you saying that I've deleted something? as far as I'm aware I haven't altered or deleted any of my posts on this subject?

Russ 03-04-2009 16:36
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768022)
? removed? are you saying that I've deleted something? as far as I'm aware I haven't altered or deleted any of my posts on this subject?
Yes, you edited your post. I won't quote the rest of it but as admins, we see much that is hidden, although to be fair it wasn't hidden when I quoted it.

Gary L 03-04-2009 16:39
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768019)
Don't avoid the question Gary, you know very well that I can see your posts.

Your thoughts/theory or to which theory you subscribe even if in part would be nice, rather than you picking holes in others thoughts.

Would the honorable gentleman supply us with a thought or theory?
No. unless you're saying that I have to?

---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:37 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34768023)
Yes, you edited your post. I won't quote the rest of it but as admins, we see much that is hidden, although to be fair it wasn't hidden when I quoted it.
The only post I edited was #338.
I quoted it wrong, but didn't alter either what was quoted or my original reply.

Russ 03-04-2009 16:41
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768025)
The only post I edited was #338.
Yes, that's what I was talking about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768025)
I quoted it wrong, but didn't alter either what was quoted or my original reply.
I took exception to it because you presumed to put words in my mouth, that's why I quoted it.

Gary L 03-04-2009 16:44
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34768028)
I took exception to it because you presumed to put words in my mouth, that's why I quoted it.
Well that's cleared that up then. when I quoted I didn't highlight all the text upwards properly in the window to delete :)

lucy7 03-04-2009 16:45
Re: The existence of God
 
Is Gary not just joining in the debate, I have not read any posts from him that actually suggest he supports any theory, he is just questioning all........ I think! That shows an interest in all theories possibly.

Surely that is ok, to question?

Gary L 03-04-2009 16:52
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34768032)
Is Gary not just joining in the debate, I have not read any posts from him that actually suggest he supports any theory, he is just questioning all........ I think! That shows an interest in all theories possibly.

Surely that is ok, to question?
<hides behind Lucy>

Correct Lucy.
don't know if I'm allowed to question. that seems to be up to certain individuals as of late :)

lucy7 03-04-2009 16:55
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768037)
<hides behind Lucy>

Correct Lucy.
don't know if I'm allowed to question. that seems to be up to certain individuals as of late :)


Hey you!!
Im not that big.....size 10/12 blonde stunner here!;)

You dont need my help, you manage very well all by your self! :)

xocemp 03-04-2009 17:04
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34768032)
Is Gary not just joining in the debate, I have not read any posts from him that actually suggest he supports any theory, he is just questioning all........ I think! That shows an interest in all theories possibly.

Surely that is ok, to question?
You can tell your new ;)

Indeed, Gary doesn't support a theory, not in this topic or others he's posted in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768037)
<hides behind Lucy>

Correct Lucy.
don't know if I'm allowed to question. that seems to be up to certain individuals as of late :)
I've yet to see a post made that side with any school of thought, in any given subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767664)
I prefer the "Let there be noise" theory. it's more convincing :)
I'm finding it hard getting any reading on this theory, can you explain the "Let there be noise theory" and also give a bit more detail as to why you subscribe to said theory?

downquark1 03-04-2009 18:46
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
The amusing thing (imho) is the that Big Bang hypothesis was first proposed by a Catholic Priest (who was also a scientist).
What's more amusing is atheists hated it.

Hugh 03-04-2009 19:00
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768037)
<hides behind Lucy>

Correct Lucy.
don't know if I'm allowed to question. that seems to be up to certain individuals as of late :)
Everyone is allowed to question - it's when individuals seem to be provoking that causes concern :):)

Gary L 03-04-2009 19:01
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768043)
You can tell your new ;)

Indeed, Gary doesn't support a theory, not in this topic or others he's posted in.
To be correct, and not wrong like you usally are. you should say Gary probably doesn't.

Quote:
I've yet to see a post made that side with any school of thought, in any given subject.
That could be because you're not following me everywhere around the forum to see what I've posted in other threads.

Quote:
I'm finding it hard getting any reading on this theory, can you explain the "Let there be noise theory" and also give a bit more detail as to why you subscribe to said theory?
No.

idi banashapan 03-04-2009 19:13
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767980)

then some say that it was the Big Bang that created the earth. and if that is the case then God didn't create it so there can't be a God?

It wasn't my theory. it was someone elses. I pointed that out to you.
In the other post you are referring to, it shows that if anything I am partly agreeing with yours.



Hmmmm.
Seriously - don't bother with it GaryL - I've been here and done this one. There are a few people here who believe that if YOU post it, it is without doubt YOUR view and belief.... They cannot grasp the fact some may present information or theories that do not necessarily represent the posters own opinion. apparently the concept is beyond them.

one of those people whom I have had personal experience of this is actually posting here now as well... pattern...

---------- Post added at 20:06 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ----------

oh - and don't DARE say you are on the fence about anything, for the love of God (or Big bang theory!!!!)

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34768039)
Hey you!!
Im not that big.....size 10/12 blonde stunner here!;)
hello there!

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34768095)
Everyone is allowed to question - it's when individuals seem to be provoking that causes concern :):)
...and when opinions differ, right?

Gary L 03-04-2009 19:24
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34768095)
Everyone is allowed to question - it's when individuals seem to be provoking that causes concern :):)
Are you going to turn yourself in then?

It's turning into a picky picky discussion where certain individuals (not mentioning your name) and his mate are trying to provoke (not mentioning my name) :)

---------- Post added at 20:24 ---------- Previous post was at 20:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender (Post 34768101)
Seriously - don't bother with it GaryL - I've been here and done this one. There are a few people here who believe that if YOU post it, it is without doubt YOUR view and belief.... They cannot grasp the fact some may present information or theories that do not necessarily represent the posters own opinion. apparently the concept is beyond them.
I know mate. :(

Quote:
hello there!
Too late. I've already taken her :)

frogstamper 03-04-2009 19:57
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767980)

then some say that it was the Big Bang that created the earth. and if that is the case then God didn't create it so there can't be a God?

It wasn't my theory. it was someone elses. I pointed that out to you.
In the other post you are referring to, it shows that if anything I am partly agreeing with yours.



Hmmmm.
Just to point out that the Big Bang theory created the universe not the Earth.:)

CHiLL 03-04-2009 20:01
Re: The existence of God
 
Like I said in an earlier post, I don't believe in the existence of God. I believe the science.

Hugh 03-04-2009 20:07
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender (Post 34768101)
Seriously - don't bother with it GaryL - I've been here and done this one. There are a few people here who believe that if YOU post it, it is without doubt YOUR view and belief.... They cannot grasp the fact some may present information or theories that do not necessarily represent the posters own opinion. apparently the concept is beyond them.

one of those people whom I have had personal experience of this is actually posting here now as well... pattern...

---------- Post added at 20:06 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ----------

oh - and don't DARE say you are on the fence about anything, for the love of God (or Big bang theory!!!!)

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------



hello there!

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------



...and when opinions differ, right?
What makes you believe that the fact that I am posting that some posters are being provocative is my belief - can you not "grasp the fact some may present information or theories that do not necessarily represent the posters own opinion?"

idi banashapan 03-04-2009 20:13
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34768141)
What makes you believe that the fact that I am posting that some posters are being provocative is my belief - can you not "grasp the fact some may present information or theories that do not necessarily represent the posters own opinion?"
I just find some people are very consistent in their apparent 'non-opinion' regarding other posters and their differing views... but this is getting off topic and it's getting interesting...

Gary L 03-04-2009 20:19
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 34768130)
Just to point out that the Big Bang theory created the universe not the Earth.:)
Let's not let little technicalities get in the way :)

CHiLL 03-04-2009 20:20
Re: The existence of God
 
I don't see why people get so hot headed. I don't believe in God? So what? You believe in God, good for you, I'm not going to criticise you about it, or interfere. My life is my life, your life is your life.

xocemp 03-04-2009 20:25
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768099)
That could be because you're not following me everywhere around the forum to see what I've posted in other threads.



No.
But I have followed you about Gary L, I've read all of your post history :)
My point stands.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that you whole heartedly believe the "let there be noise theory", I'm interested in the parts that stir you. Would you be good enough to give examples of thoughts for and against, even if in part of selected 'school of thoughts'

Quote:
I'm finding it hard getting any reading on this theory, can you explain the "Let there be noise theory" and also give a bit more detail as to why you subscribe to said theory?
And myself & foreverwar are not mates, perhaps we just call it as we see it ;)

lucy7 03-04-2009 20:30
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHiLL (Post 34768154)
I don't see why people get so hot headed. I don't believe in God? So what? You believe in God, good for you, I'm not going to criticise you about it, or interfere. My life is my life, your life is your life.


Totally agree Chilly Willy...........but some folk see things as a personal attack on their firm beliefs, and so want to stand up for them, which is their right.

This thread has gone off on all sorts of different roads, some have been so confusing, I forgot what the original post was all about at times!!



Whoops..in edit that looks like i am a non believer, i do believe!!

Maggy 03-04-2009 20:33
Re: The existence of God
 
Sadly this thread has gone exactly where I said it would end up at right at the beginning..and got slated for saying so....:rolleyes:

LondonRoad 03-04-2009 20:33
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHiLL (Post 34768154)
I don't see why people get so hot headed. I don't believe in God? So what? You believe in God, good for you, I'm not going to criticise you about it, or interfere. My life is my life, your life is your life.
It is a topic like no other.

There are clearly intelligent people contributing to this thread who have made themselves aware of the various arguments/opinions. From that they have drawn their own conclusions.

Nothing new there!! but the existance (or otherwise) of God discussion seems to have a different dimension. There seems to be an element of people not understanding why others haven't came to the same conclusion as they have.

I do believe in God but the majority of my friends don't. We've done this discussion between ourselves a few times, usually when there's been a current affairs story, and the same suspects always end up on the same side of the fence...... and the fence sitters still end up with splinters up their agnostic ar$es :)

lucy7 03-04-2009 20:40
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34768171)
Sadly this thread has gone exactly where I said it would end up at right at the beginning..and got slated for saying so....:rolleyes:


Questioned.........not slated Maggie (was trying to find an appropiate smiley sort of face, but cant!)

frogstamper 03-04-2009 20:42
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
and the fence sitters still end up with splinters up their agnostic ar$es
Thats the way to go, your either with us or against us.:D:

Gary L 03-04-2009 20:46
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768157)
My point stands.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that you whole heartedly believe the "let there be noise theory", I'm interested in the parts that stir you. Would you be good enough to give examples of thoughts for and against, even if in part of selected 'school of thoughts'
In life, when somebody says No. you might have to accept that as an answer.
badgering them could lead into forcing them. which can get you into lots of trouble :)

papa smurf 03-04-2009 20:56
Re: The existence of God
 
1 Attachment(s)
this is how i depict God it's for those who's lives need something to lean on.

xocemp 03-04-2009 20:59
Re: The existence of God
 
How about a nice easy game of hangman then? You can contribute to this at least can't you?

_______
|/ |
| (_)
| \|
| |
| /
|
|___

_ _ O _ _

Some seem to get by badgering others without getting into trouble :)

Russ 03-04-2009 21:04
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 34768198)
this is how i depict God it's for those who's lives need something to lean on.
I had no idea I needed something to lean on in life. Then again seeing as you know absolutely nothing about my life (or the life of any other Christians I know) I think your opinion, while welcome, is quite redundant.

Gary L 03-04-2009 21:06
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768199)
How about a nice easy game of hangman then?
I was not going to pose this question, but as we are clearly going off topic ^^^


Did God create man, or did man create God?

xocemp 03-04-2009 21:09
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768203)
Did God create man, or did man create God?
What do you think Gary and why?

Gary L 03-04-2009 21:13
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768204)
What do you think Gary and why?
I think man created God. the reason being is that what I have stated before. I believe that if there were a God he wouldn't allow suffering/torture and pain.

What about you?

Chris 03-04-2009 21:13
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 34768198)
this is how i depict God it's for those who's lives need something to lean on.
I think that says more about how you would like people to see you living your life than it does about anyone else.

xocemp 03-04-2009 21:14
Re: The existence of God
 
But what if he/she/it is testing our faith?

Chris 03-04-2009 21:16
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768207)
I believe that if there were a God he wouldn't allow suffering/torture and pain.
But do you think you could cope with having many of the decisions you make about the way you live your life countermanded?

Gary L 03-04-2009 21:18
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768209)
But what if he/she/it is testing our faith?
Then how long does this test have to go on for? till we die?
Do we forgive him for the torture/suffering and pain at the end when we get a prize for putting up with it?

What is that prize that we are so looking forward to?
Or should I say you/they?


What about you? did God create man, or did man create God, and why?

xocemp 03-04-2009 21:22
Re: The existence of God
 
How do you know it is a test?
Forgive him for torture and suffering, is this not man doing onto man?
What do you think the prize might be, if there is one?

Gary L 03-04-2009 21:24
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34768211)
But do you think you could cope with having many of the decisions you make about the way you live your life countermanded?
Why does it have to be countermanded, when it didn't have to happen in the first place?

---------- Post added at 22:24 ---------- Previous post was at 22:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768215)
How do you know it is a test?
Forgive him for torture and suffering, is this not man doing onto man?
What do you think the prize might be, if there is one?
I've answered your 2 questions. unless the answer to this 3rd one is relevant to you in making your mind up to the same question, then I ask again. What do you think, and why?

Chris 03-04-2009 21:30
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768216)
Why does it have to be countermanded, when it didn't have to happen in the first place?
Gary, what brand of coffee is in your kitchen? What was the last bar of chocolate you bought?

xocemp 03-04-2009 21:32
Re: The existence of God
 
We know what you think "the prize" may be. Are you sticking with this now or changing your mind?
By this statement you are saying there is a God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34764033)
He made us, and won't help us. he leaves us to kill and to make each other suffer. it's all happening at the moment and we are all content because we know that after we have gone through the suffering stages and eventually die. we're going to heaven where there is no suffering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768216)
I've answered your 2 questions. unless the answer to this 3rd one is relevant to you in making your mind up to the same question, then I ask again. What do you think, and why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768191)
badgering them could lead into forcing them. which can get you into lots of trouble :)
:)

Gary L 03-04-2009 21:34
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34768222)
Gary, what brand of coffee is in your kitchen? What was the last bar of chocolate you bought?
Nescafe and a Whispa? :confused: :)

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768225)
We know what you think "the prize" may be. Are you sticking with this now or changing your mind?
By this statement you are saying there is a God?
Someone will tell you where you keep going wrong soon :rolleyes: :)

Chris 03-04-2009 21:42
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768227)
Nescafe and a Whispa? :confused: :)
Well Nestle, whose bottom line you're swelling with your coffee purchases, has an appalling reputation for screwing more product for less dosh from its third world producers. To say nothing of the totally a-moral way it markets its infant formula in rural African communities.

And Wispa is produced by Cadbury's, which owns a 'fair trade' brand called Green and Blacks. If Cadbury labels Green and Blacks chocolate as 'fair trade', what, by implication, is the chocolate that is not labled 'fair'?

The point I'm making is, suffering, and the causes of it, are always a lot closer to home than most people are prepared to admit. If God were to intervene to deal with all suffering, rather than just the big, headline-grabbing suffering you had in mind, it would have a very significant day-to-day impact on the way you live your life. Are you prepared to give up the personal free will that you would have to lose in order for God to do that?

Hugh 03-04-2009 21:43
Re: The existence of God
 
As I have said before, on many threads like this -
If you have faith, good for you, as long as you don't expect all others to agree with you, and are willing to live and let live
If you don't have faith, good for you, as long as you don't expect all others to agree with you, and are willing to live and let live.

xocemp 03-04-2009 21:51
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768227)
Nescafe and a Whispa? :confused: :)

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------



Someone will tell you where you keep going wrong soon :rolleyes: :)
Please do tell me where I keep going wrong and why.

/On topic/
Do you think everyone will get into heaven?

Gary L 03-04-2009 21:54
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34768235)
The point I'm making is, suffering, and the causes of it, are always a lot closer to home than most people are prepared to admit. If God were to intervene to deal with all suffering, rather than just the big, headline-grabbing suffering you had in mind, it would have a very significant day-to-day impact on the way you live your life. Are you prepared to give up the personal free will that you would have to lose in order for God to do that?
Yes. if he were to (put it rather bluntly) show his face and tell us to stop it. we would all probably stop ourselves doing it.

You're giving me what can be seen as excuses for him not showing his presence. and I am questioning as to why it's such a big deal for his presence and intervention to be made.

---------- Post added at 22:54 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768245)
Please do tell me where I keep going wrong and why.

/On topic/
Do you think everyone will get into heaven?
You are proving to me that you have no intention of discussion of the subject. all you do is keep asking questions in order to prove some sort of point. which happens to be misunderstood by yourself when making it.

Can you answer questions in between asking them too?

Chris 03-04-2009 21:56
Re: The existence of God
 
I'm not giving excuses Gary. God is prepared to deal with the cause of human suffering, one human at a time. He is doing it. He's doing it in me, and he is graciously only doing it as I realise the suffering I am causing other people and ask him to help where I acknowlege I'm powerless. He does it this way in every individual human being who asks for his help, and he is gracious enough not to force his help on anyone who doesn't want it.

Suffering is not God's fault. It is the fault of every individual who, when push comes to shove, would rather put their own personal freedom and comfort ahead of anyone else's. I include myself in this. I have barely started the journey he wants to take me on.

Gary L 03-04-2009 22:02
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34768253)
I'm not giving excuses Gary. God is prepared to deal with the cause of human suffering, one human at a time. He is doing it. He's doing it in me, and he is graciously only doing it as I realise the suffering I am causing other people and ask him to help where I acknowlege I'm powerless. He does it this way in every individual human being who asks for his help, and he is gracious enough not to force his help on anyone who doesn't want it.

Suffering is not God's fault. It is the fault of every individual who, when push comes to shove, would rather put their own personal freedom and comfort ahead of anyone else's. I include myself in this. I have barely started the journey he wants to take me on.
What about those who don't want to suffer and be subject to pain, who don't know how to ask for help? or those who might not know how, or don't want to ask for the help in stopping subjecting the pain?

To me it's all about if you don't ask you don't get. if you don't let him know that you think he's great he doesn't want to know and will ignore you.

xocemp 03-04-2009 22:03
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768247)
You are proving to me that you have no intention of discussion of the subject. all you do is keep asking questions in order to prove some sort of point. which happens to be misunderstood by yourself when making it.

Can you answer questions in between asking them too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768037)
<snip>
don't know if I'm allowed to question. that seems to be up to certain individuals as of late :)
Yes I could answer questions in between but I don't want to for now, I'm taking in what you post and 'learning'.

Chris 03-04-2009 22:08
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768257)
What about those who don't want to suffer and be subject to pain, who don't know how to ask for help? or those who might not know how, or don't want to ask for the help in stopping subjecting the pain?

To me it's all about if you don't ask you don't get. if you don't let him know that you think he's great he doesn't want to know and will ignore you.
Who doesn't know how to help? God doesn't respond exclusively to the Church of England's Book of Common Prayer you know. Believe it or not he's pretty keen to talk whether or not you're a churchgoer or not.

Every child knows how to ask for and receive help. Getting help is something adults eventually choose not to do, not vice versa.

I'm not going to claim that the proper response by a human to God is anything other than, or less than, worship or adoration, but again, I think your view is a bit distorted. God isn't looking for worship as a precondition of anything. On the contrary, worship is the natural response that comes after people realise who he is. He is quite happy to help people realise who he is without any preconditions, other than for them to be willing to listen and to learn.

Gary L 03-04-2009 22:28
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xocemp (Post 34768258)
Yes I could answer questions in between but I don't want to for now, I'm taking in what you post and 'learning'.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2009/04/70.jpg

---------- Post added at 23:28 ---------- Previous post was at 23:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34768262)
Who doesn't know how to help?
who doesn't know how to ask for help

Quote:
God doesn't respond exclusively to the Church of England's Book of Common Prayer you know. Believe it or not he's pretty keen to talk whether or not you're a churchgoer or not.

Every child knows how to ask for and receive help. Getting help is something adults eventually choose not to do, not vice versa.
If every child knows how to ask for help, then does he ignore them when they do?
Why don't they get the help? do they have to say the word God in the sentence?

xocemp 03-04-2009 22:28
Re: The existence of God
 
I am do not attend church, I do not pray everyday. So Gary, if I ask from time to time some help from God does that mean I'll be ignored?

mischievious 03-04-2009 23:13
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767954)
Why what?
I was referring to your misguided opinion that if there were a GOD it wouldn't be possible to survive the "Big Bang"....

frogstamper 03-04-2009 23:27
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34768262)
Who doesn't know how to help? God doesn't respond exclusively to the Church of England's Book of Common Prayer you know. Believe it or not he's pretty keen to talk whether or not you're a churchgoer or not.

Every child knows how to ask for and receive help. Getting help is something adults eventually choose not to do, not vice versa.

I'm not going to claim that the proper response by a human to God is anything other than, or less than, worship or adoration, but again, I think your view is a bit distorted. God isn't looking for worship as a precondition of anything. On the contrary, worship is the natural response that comes after people realise who he is. He is quite happy to help people realise who he is without any preconditions, other than for them to be willing to listen and to learn.
Chris please don't take this as being offensive in any way, but a question I've always been interested in asking people of faith is, "how are you or others so aware of what God actually wants"?
Is for example the above post opinions that you have deduced that God wants from say talking to other theologians or reading the bible or the like, or is it more than that.
One of the reasons I'm asking is that I've seen quite a few religious programs lately on TV whereby a group of people from varying religions all claim to know what God wants, surely they can't all be right.?

Gary L 03-04-2009 23:38
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischievious (Post 34768300)
I was referring to your misguided opinion that if there were a GOD it wouldn't be possible to survive the "Big Bang"....
It was something I read somewhere. that God wouldn't have survived the Big Bang. if you say that it's misguided. does that mean that he did?
How did he survive the Big Bang?
or if there was a God, how would he survive I should say.

---------- Post added at 00:38 ---------- Previous post was at 00:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 34768308)
Chris please don't take this as being offensive in any way, but a question I've always been interested in asking people of faith is, "how are you or others so aware of what God actually wants"?
Is for example the above post opinions that you have deduced that God wants from say talking to other theologians or reading the bible or the like, or is it more than that.
One of the reasons I'm asking is that I've seen quite a few religious programs lately on TV whereby a group of people from varying religions all claim to know what God wants, surely they can't all be right.?
I'm being blunt again. it's from the Bible.

mischievious 03-04-2009 23:55
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768207)
I think man created God. the reason being is that what I have stated before. I believe that if there were a God he wouldn't allow suffering/torture and pain.
This view is far too two dimensional. Please could you define the GOD that you don't believe exists????

Your statement makes claims of your fictional GOD which in order to appraise your stance requires an explanation.

For me though GOD is given a general a general omniscience value it can be argued that this boils down to inherent omniscience rather than total omniscience. The distiction being that GOD would have to choose to know about "you" for instance. This would mean in general he knows nothing of "you" until/unless something occurrs to focus his/her/its attention and at that moment all knowledge about you is known.

frogstamper 03-04-2009 23:58
Re: The existence of God
 
I've got to try and answer your question of "how did God survive the big bang".
First of let me start by saying that as an atheist I don't believe that God even exists, let alone was responsible for the creation of the universe.
But putting that aside for a moment, if I were a person of faith and believed that God did create the universe, surly if he were able to do such a thing he would have made provisions to keep himself "safe" in the process, presumably outside of our universe.
That's what I would say, if I believed in it.;)

Gary L 04-04-2009 00:10
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischievious (Post 34768317)
This view is far too two dimensional. Please could you define the GOD that you don't believe exists????
Where does one start to describe something that doesn't exist?

Quote:
For me though GOD is given a general a general omniscience value it can be argued that this boils down to inherent omniscience rather than total omniscience. The distiction being that GOD would have to choose to know about "you" for instance. This would mean in general he knows nothing of "you" until/unless something occurrs to focus his/her/its attention and at that moment all knowledge about you is known.
You're going to have one hell of an hangover in the morning :)

---------- Post added at 01:10 ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 34768319)
I've got to try and answer your question of "how did God survive the big bang".
First of let me start by saying that as an atheist I don't believe that God even exists, let alone was responsible for the creation of the universe.
But putting that aside for a moment, if I were a person of faith and believed that God did create the universe, surly if he were able to do such a thing he would have made provisions to keep himself "safe" in the process, presumably outside of our universe.
That's what I would say, if I believed in it.;)
Do you think he sent someone else to do it while he kept away at a safe distance?
Ok, joking aside. what defences did God use to survive the Big Bang? seeing as the universe is infinite?

mischievious 04-04-2009 00:23
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34768253)
I realise the suffering I am causing other people and ask him to help where I acknowlege I'm powerless.
As with Gary? :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34768257)
To me it's all about if you don't ask you don't get.
So you're saying if you don't pray, don't expect anything? :D

Regarding the "Big Bang" thing surely you can see you are attributing Mortal concepts to a possibly immortal deity? The rules simply don't apply.

Though it is possible that the reason for GOD's omniscience is a direct result of unwilling participation of the original experiment/project... i.e. he/she/it was sucked in and scattered accross the universe :)

I


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