Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I would suggest, the CFT put an end to this subject, before it blows up out of proportion, EVERYONE, is entitled to there views on this matter, which is tragic, with all the loss of life, but forum members, are forgetting the matter, that you don't slag off fellow members, for what they believe in, My belief is that there should be peace on both sides, But l don't think this will happen, just yet.

We need peace keepers in there, and sort it out.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Give it a rest will ya. I will apologise to Foreverwar.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

There should be peace. But, as you well know Arthur, this will continue for a few days more. Israel will not stop its advance. It will systematically search for, & target, weapons or enemy personnel.

Personally, I reckon on 6 days, but it depends on what they achieve. We cant keep putting peacekeepers into every conflict. Its bad enough our forces have to fight in some rat hole on the other side of the world anyway, without putting them between these two factions.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

We need someone there, otherwise Hamas will continue to hammer Israel and then Israel will launch a disproportionate response and the cycle will continue. In the current state of affairs I cannot see any end in slight for the conflict without an International presence.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

chaos, no need - I haven't taken any of your comments personally.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I can't see any country putting their troops in between Hamas and the Israeli Armed services...

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The United Nations? Few would be able to excuse an attack on a external army. Hamas attacks a British/French/German solider and they won't just have Israel to deal with...

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I just don't think it will happen..The UN has enough trouble getting enough people to agree to any such action and then it's amazing how many countries can't quite manage their commitment..because they already have so many other calls on their service personnel.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I don't think Hamas would see the UN as a neutral peace force somehow. From their founding charter:-

"You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it."[102]

Source:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Are you saying thats true?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Are you saying it's not?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Now, now foreverwar, otherwise, l will be on this forum all night, and l want to watch TV.:)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Which? That the quote is genuinely from Hamas's founding charter, or that the statement itself is true? As far as the former is concerned, I only have Wiki to go on. As far as the latter is concerned, of course not, but I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Edit: Possibly a better source - see article 22

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/...s/charter.html

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Dr Gilbert, a Norweigen Dr has just confirmed on PRESS TV that the Israelis are using a new type of weapon that shreads the body in pieces. If the person lives they will develop Cancer. The Dr has said that these weapons are against international law and that women and children have been affected by this weapon.

They are called Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Link, please, or is this a repeat of your post #270 ?

These accusations were also made in October 2006 (not by you, obviously).

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Link provided

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/772933.html

nasty if one of those hits the wrong target

also

"The report says that the weapon is not banned by international law, especially since it has not been officially tested."

I would imagine it soon will be

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_I...etal_Explosive

...and reports of its use date back to 2006, as per Uncle Peter's link.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

So, are these weapons any more dangerous than a 7.62 through the chest? Or a 5.56, or a 9mm? Are they anymore destructive than any domestic or military grade explosive? A nail bomb, An IED? How about a hesh through your living room?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Yes, because it gives Cancer/Leukemia to Women an Children. I wonder what you would say if a terrorist used this weapon to decapitate women and children in our capital?? Hang on i know what you would say - you would want their blood, you would want to exact revenage on the people that used this weapon on innocent women and children. Am i right?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Oh dear. Chaos, you have no idea do you.

Have you any idea the destruction a 7.62 does to the body?
Have you seen the destruction caused by a nail bomb?
Do you even know what a hesh is?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

A nail bomb cause Cancer? Its news to me. I know what this weapon does to women and children though.

WARNING DISTURBING PICTURES IF UNSURE DONT CLICK THE LINK.

Mod Edit (Rob M): Removed

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Your deflecting from the question's chaos. Also why is it worse because it causes cancer ? is the loss of human life in any form from any weapon not just as bad ?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Of course its news to you. Go back & read my post again. Then, when you have absorbed it, comment on it without adding anything else.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Which? DIME or a nail bomb?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The destruction at time of detonation is probably the same. The difference here is that if you survive the blast, you are more than likely going to suffer from Cancer. Not only that, this weapon goes into the atmosphere, and people who were not effected by the initial blast would get cancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_I...etal_Explosive

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002434.html

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/ti...eapon-in-gaza/

---------- Post added at 20:55 ---------- Previous post was at 20:54 ----------

dime

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

OK, heres a link to Defense Update. This is a factual military mag which outlines the effect these weapons have.

For the less "Clued up" guys, they are a small fragmentation bomb, designed to be fired at an object close to the enemy, where they will shatter & disable.

http://www.defense-update.com/products/d/dime.htm

You will find that this weapon has been designed specifically to reduce collateral damage. Not increase it.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://www.afrri.usuhs.mil/www/outre...ten_cancer.pdf

I'm no expert on weaponry, but it appears that the military are/have been looking at Tungsten as a (possibly) safer alternative to lead/depleted Uranium. It MAY not be as safe as they thought. However I do note that DIME weapons are SUPPOSED to reduce 'collateral damage'. (SMG beat me to it!)

Anyway, I've yet to see any definitive proof that DIME weapons are being used in the current campaign (not saying they aren't, but I'd like to see something other than an Iranian TV source).

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Surley you are joking. Of course, your source is not going to admit that their new weapon gives innocents Cancer. Are they?

---------- Post added at 21:03 ---------- Previous post was at 21:03 ----------


What sort of evidence would be good enough for you then?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Crap. The destruction is defiantly not the same.

The difference is that the dime weapon gives you a greater chance of survival, despite the damage.

Do you think any soldier cares about the possibility of developing cancer, if he survives a hit???? Matey, when your in close vicinity to a nail bomb or hesh, theres nothing left to develop cancer. One of the reasons this type of weapon was designed, is to take out the "concealed" enemy.

You know, saying things like "Not only that, this weapon goes into the atmosphere, and people who were not effected by the initial blast would get cancer." does not enhance your arguments.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Moving on, Israel are now deep into Gaza. They are now so entrenched into Gaza that, according to the BBC, they have effectively cut the territory into two parts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7810804.stm

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I suspect they will divide it into 4 parts before long.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You convienetly fail to mention, once again, women and children. Or are they just classed as collateral damage.

"Toxic/Carcinogenic Effects

The carcinogenic effects of heavy metal tungsten alloys (HMTA) have been studied by the U.S. Armed Forces since at least 2000 (along with depleted uranium (DU)). These alloys were found to cause neoplastic transformations of human osteoblast cells[3].

A more recent U.S. Department of Health study in 2005 found that HMTA shrapnel rapidly induces rhabdomyosarcoma cancers in rats.[4]

The tungsten alloy carcinogenicity may be most closely related to the nickel content of the alloys used in weapons to date. However, pure tungsten and tungsten trioxide are also suspected of causing cancer and other toxic properties, and have been shown to have such effects in animal studies. [5]"

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I wonder what their intended end game is? Do they really think they can get rid of Hamas? I suspect they could destroy a good amount of their military infrastructure.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Oh yeah because they are immune to bullets, rockets, nail bombs, land mines etc etc. I dont understand your argument there tbh chaos ?

---------- Post added at 21:28 ---------- Previous post was at 21:26 ----------

Is this better than the airstrike's though ? Ive noticed people have been saying the only way to achieve anything with military means is to use ground forces so is now the right move ?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Ah, the penny drops. YES. Collateral damage includes Civillians, women, children, cats, dogs, & anyone else who is unintentionally injured.

Read your own post now. suspected of causing cancer.

:dunce:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

There are people with actual military experience on this forum, so they will have a much better education than me on this. :dunce:

I guess they can strike with a lot more precision as a ground force, but it could led to open warfare between Israel and Hamas which might be just as deadly as what appears to be responsibly precise air strikes. Now though they are willing to put their own peoples lives in the line, which I guess we could take as a indication that they are serious about this war :erm:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Just to put the tungsten alloy weapon issue to bed I think the concern is that, for example: you could be injured by a conventional bomb and live a relatively normal life or you could be injured by one of these things with an increased risk of developing cancer. Not to mention the potentially nasty by products which may be left lying around if they're not cleaned up.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I dont think they are naive enough to think they will rid the place of Hamas, but they have already made an impression on their infrastructure & command. I reckon another 6-9 days will see it out. I did think Obama may have made a "peace" visit & put pressure on, but unless someone does, Israel will just plod on.

Icestar2, Regarding the "Air strike" scenario, it is easier to destroy the enemy with air power. Wars start & can finish with air power. However, collateral damage is very high. Unfortunately, the only way to clear an urban area, with minimum collateral damage, is with ground troops. Or, as the yanks would say, use grunts.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Thats the point i was trying to get across.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I wonder if this conflict will ever end, we like making comparisons to Northern Ireland but this seems so much more complex. War seems to be too engrained in the minds of both sides that it seems unlikely the population of either side will put pressure for a lasting solution. :(

It will be interesting to see the aftermath this time around, Obama really needs to tell Israel to restrain themselves! A task which is not easy unless Hamas/Hizbollah stop trying to provoke em.

Wonder if Obama is beginning to regreat winning the election :p: Come to think of it, Does anyone remember Biden saying that Obama will be faced with a serious crisis when he takes up office? Spooky.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I would amagine he will have something to say as soon as he actually takes office but until then he seems to be keeping his lips tight. Or then again maybe he/his team have not decided what they are going to do/say yet ?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think he cannot say much beyond pointing at the present president for the next 18 days.After that I'm sure he'll be vocal enough.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think its a wise politician who sits on the fence here. Obamas probably thinking well, let George sort it, if he makes a mistake, I can jump in later on.:D

The more I learn, the more I see no hope for a peace. These guys hate each other, & as far as I'm concerned, Religion plays a massive part.

It seems that two peoples with equal rights cannot share a common land, & just get on with it. Theres always someone in the background with nothing better to do, than stir up trouble.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Maybe, well he will have to be, but I suspect this is a difficult area for him. A lot of his supporters will have some sympathy with the Palestinians, but a lot of America is very pro-Israel. He will have to walk a tightrope to avoid annoying either group, a task he needs to do in order to be able to have some creditability with both groups during any possible talks.

I think it's also a further indication of the smart choice of Clinton as Secretary of State

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well the US has come down on the Israeli side, not unexpected. There does appear to be less civilian casualties with the ground troops advancing, although tanks are still targeting buildings. There isn't as much support for Hamas as I thought, although the Arab nations condemn Israel, they are being a bit cagey when it comes to Hamas.

Lets just hope this runs its course without too many casualties, on either side.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Why anybody bothers having a debate, or better tries having a debate with such an offensive person is beyond me.
Obviously you have strong views concerning the Palestinians, which most people do, including foreverwar, but any disagreement with your conspiratorial view is, as always met by vitriol and personal abuse by yourself.:td::td::td:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

pic says it all i believe...

what do those who favour israel, have to say about the constant illegal demolishments of houses, illegal settlements, blockade of aid, taking away land etc

the way I look at this is, for example, say the uk agreed to give manchester to nazis, because nazis desired to have a place to call their own and have a right to exist. but over time the nazis started ruining liverpool homes, take away land in chester and slowly expand their territory, how would those in liverpool feel...? especially too when the nazis are armed to their teeth, have financial, political and religious backing from lets say the US (hint). liverpool citizens have no means of getting their land back, how do they fight back hmmmm?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

If you read previous posts m8, you will see your point has been made, several times.

Frogstamper, I fully agree with you m8, But you can only post either facts or your own point of view m8. If someone doesn't want to believe you, they dont have to. Conspiracy & Murder feature quite a lot, but not much is backed up by facts.

Telling peeps "people like you crawl out of the woodwork", is not very diplomatic. You know guys, if we dont keep this on topic its going to end up like Hamas, defeated.

Having said that, does anyone seriously think Hamas will be victorious, or will they just get the crap kicked out of them.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The real irony is that most outsiders looking in can see only to well what the outcome must be, a viable independent Palestinian state living next door to a safe Israel.
There can be no other peaceful outcome to this current nightmare, I imagine most moderates on both sides realise this but as always are continually let down by the hardliners on both sides.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

i was focusing on that land point, the main point of everything that is going on today - the root of all problems. give back the palestines their land simple. As a muslim my self I totally see Jews right to exist, and jews, muslims and christians have been living side by side for many centuries, but like I said the main problem is the land issue...and when did this land issue start, well when the zionist movement wanted to return to the "promised land". fair enough come the more the merrier, but as days go the territory expands.

you guys are not seeing the bigger picture...all these minor wars are nothing, israel is funded by the us, who believe in the return of the jesus and are anticipating for him to return to land owned by jews and not muslims. simple, why do you think the Bush is allowing them to go on, didnt Bush say before the iraq war, he saw a dream and god told him to do it or something?

of course Hamas is going to get their arms broken, Israel is one of the most militarised nations on the earth backed by the us.

on a side dish - i once saw a program relating to tourists going to juraselem from the US to see the land where jesus is meant to be coming, and they bought stuff from some jew shops, but when they went near muslim shops this lady says, I dont want to buy from there, theyre muslims. says it all i think :rolleyes:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You could equally argue that using ground forces will only escalate the situation still further.

Except they aren't, negotiation is the only way this conflict and all the troubles in the area will stop, it's alright Israel saying they are peaceful but talk is cheap when they don't even keep to the terms of the previous cease fire, they point the finger at Hamas for firing missiles but under the terms of the agreement they were supposed to stop the blockade of Gaza, they didn't they increased it with a complete disregard for the people of Gaza, talk of trying to keep civilian casualties down and 'we are not their enemies' is utter rubbish when you are blowing them up and your previous actions caused them to eat grass and treatable cancer patients to die because they weren't allowed to leave and continue their treatment

---------- Post added at 06:04 ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 ----------

So am I, pro people to be exact and on that subject members here keep posting links to how rabid Hamas are and some of them most certainly are however there are plenty who are prepared to negotiate, infact I even remember seeing some thing about a normalisation of relations with Israel if they pull back to the 1967 borders, what I haven't see anyone post yet is how equally rabid some Israeli's are, many don't believe in a 2 state solution and some of them are in very high up positions in government, they won't be happy until every Palestinian has been driven out and I believe I am right in saying a certain chap in a persistent vegetative state felt the same

Is this enough evidence? The use as a smoke screen on a battle field isn't illegal but to use it in a built up area is but then most countries find the use of cluster bombs abominable but that didn't stop the IDF in the Lebanon did it.

---------- Post added at 06:08 ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 ----------

Why's that then, Israel killed 4 UN peacekeepers in the last war, many say they did it on purpose, I dont know about that, what I do know is that they ignored many many warnings about their shelling of the position and when that failed to kill them they sent in an air strike, draw your own conclusions and nothing happened to them did it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5215366.stm

---------- Post added at 06:15 ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 ----------

I doubt it'll achieve anything really, they won't destroy Hamas, just like they couldn't destroy Hezbollah, Israel won't be any safer and the whole thing will carry on as before in time

---------- Post added at 06:17 ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 ----------

I hope he is and a bit more even handed to boot

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Thank you.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Agree with you there totally, the root of the problem is land, Israel keeps on expanding taking over Palestinian land, if my next door neighbour starting paving over my lawn, and the council said it was illegal but did nothing every time i rang them up, i wouldn't just sit back and watch him.

I would take action by trying to get my land back. He is much stronger physically and financially, he has links with the police and council so they are on his side.

I personally wouldn't start throwing bricks threw his window or setting his car alight but the difference is this is going on on a much larger scale in Palestine. They are losing homes, businesses, Jobs etc. They are retaliating by launching rockets back at Israel.


Hamas cannot be defeated just like Hezbollah, Israel will kill many civilians and than move out like they have been doing for the past 60 years. Few years time same thing will happen again. International community are to blame as well by not taking any action.

Maybe Obama will make a change, who knows though hey, good to see people sharing their thoughts though.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

so if my point has been made several times the people reading this thread will understand that israel is based on illegal land...i mean throughout history what they only been there for a mere 70.....70 years. I mean the persian people once ruled more than half the world, today if a persian movement with persian ancestors today decided they wanted to reclaim their land, would everyone budge over and accept their demands?

I mean the land you call Israel was Palestine for 1700 years, with everyone living together, but like I said before its all to do with the zionist movement and the return of jesus...some of you guys are delving so much into small stuff, take a gestalt attidue and see the whole.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10608150.htm

cute kid huh....I mean throughout 6 years 20 i think have died in israel or around that figure. look how many have died in palestine within one week, mostly civilian.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

There is no hope. Obama's chief of staff was an Israeli soldier and self declared Zionist. Google "Rahm Emanuel Zionist", it's well documented.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Alot of people including myself know that there isn't any chance obama will make much difference, but at the end of the day all you got is hope. Once thats gone what's left?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well, it would be if you restrict your search only to those web pages that discuss the charge against him.

What is it with you conspiracy nuts - are you scared of open discussion or what? Why this never-ending need to limit debate only to niche sources that back up your viewpoint?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

with all due respect sir, I think he has a valid point - more or less the entire media is run by pro-zionist jews, cnn, fox, bbc radio etc, I think what hes trying to say is jews run everything currently, so the idea of any peace agreements that isnt israels idea of peace will not be agreed - in my OPINION israels idea of peace is world dominance - simple, those of you who disagree please make your point as to why Im wrong. before any of you throw the anti-semetic card at me im not. Im simply anti-zionist.

I think there should be no Israel and no Palestine, both countries should be combined into i dont know something called fudgeland where every citizen has equal rights, those palestinians who were ousted from their homes should have a right to return, all land bought illegaly where they just think because no one is there, its theirs should be returned, return of all 10000 palestinians, hamas should be disarmed and israles nuclear weopons be destroyed - aaah pinch me Im dreaming again :o:

talking about nuclear weapons, could someone please enlighten me as to why the us was allowed to go on to an illegal war, using the mass weapons of destruction excuse and saying it is going to cause havoc in the middle east while israel has nuclear weapons - so you see it all seems like a conspiracy - everything the us does is pro-israel, understand that its an ally but cmon surely those of you who are neutral can see whats going on.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

If you believe that, nothing anyone will say will vary your viewpoint (imho).

Remind me, why do the Illuminati let the Zionists control the media?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

What I never understand is that if the Jews / Zionists control everything as people here keep on claiming. Why haven't they managed to sort this out in there favour already?

So does that mean they don't control everything?

Also trying to disprove a conspiracy theory is an excise in futility. Impossible to prove a negative and any evidence is turned around so that it proves the conspiracy or control of the worlds media / governments. Reasonable debate seems to be impossible and anyone with a differing view is part of the conspiracy.

The only proof given that conspiracy's exist seem to be links to websites with with polarised views that quote other websites with the same polarised views. Or we get some clip usually taken totally out of context or misinterpreted opinion given as facts.

As for the current crisis I think both sides are to blame, there will be no solution until other country's stop backing their relative sides and independent peacekeepers go in. But I just don't see this happening at the moment. Cries of Zionist overlords etc. do nothing to help.

JJ

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Aham!I think you are referring to his Father.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahm_Emanuel

:rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 15:36 ---------- Previous post was at 15:31 ----------

Now I'm going to quit being nice about it.

No more talk of Zionists.Use the correct terms and please leave the hyperbole and propaganda out of the discussion and STICK TO THE TOPIC.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

No conspiracy there i am afraid. Its fact.

---------- Post added at 15:52 ---------- Previous post was at 15:51 ----------

Yes he father was a member of the Terrorist organisation Irgun.

Also, not trying to make trouble but, why can we not use the term Zionists. A Zionist is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

This term is widely used in the mainstream media

After all, we have people on here calling Hamas terrorists.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

In all honesty if we are going to discuss what should be done about the situation, then it's pretty impossible to have a discussion without refering to zionism as there is an opinion as this is a magor contributor to the current situation.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Unfortunately, the Palestinian - Israeli conflict has been a problem since before 1947.

This link gives "a" history of events though it does admit that some of the facts are disputed. I'm not offering as a true or complete version but it does give some indication of the background and flavour of the conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

The British Mandate of Palestine pre 1948, the declaration of Independence by Israel in 1948 and the displacement and possible mistreatment of thousands of Palestinians at that time has generated an intense, ongoing hatred between Palestinians and Israelis and has created a festering wound that needs to be healed.

The Palestinian unhappiness at the carving up of Palestine has, since the creation of Israel, led to attacks from various neighbours of Israel.

Israel, with the assistance of the USA, has managed to fight off these attacks but it seems likely that these attacks will continue in some form or another until a mutually acceptable diplomatic solution is found and there is complete acceptance & tolerance of both a Palestinian state and an Israeli one.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I did know his father was a terrorist. Emanuel cannot be held responsible for his father crimes...

From your link: ".... Moskal also charged that Emanuel had dual citizenship with Israel and had served in the Israeli Army.[31] Emanuel did not serve in the Israeli army, but was a civilian volunteer assisting the Israel Defense Forces for a short time during the 1991 Gulf War, repairing truck brakes in one of Israel's northern bases....."

See this, please note the title.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Because the term is being used as a derogatory name and some members have been using it rather freely to describe anyone who does not agree with them just as others have implied that anyone who takes the side of Hamas,Palestine or the opposing viewpoint is somehow a terrorist lover.

Anyway as far as I'm aware Hamas terrorist is the correct term..And far shorter than Hamas Freedom fighter.

I'm merely concerned in keeping the discussion going without too much abuse,trolling,flaming or name calling and keeping everyone to abide roughly by CF's T&Cs one of which is not arguing publicly with a moderator.Another is sticking to topic when asked to do so...Both of which you should know by now..So please just for once do as you are asked.;)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I would say that Hamas are fighting for their freedom. After all during the 6 month ceasefire Gaza was still under siege by Israel. Granted, Israel did not fire rockets into Gaza, but they still blockaded it, restricted aid going in, did not allow the citizens in Gaza to work otside Gaza. Is that fair conditions for a ceasefire.

Just because terrorist is shorter than the term freedom fighter does not justify its use.

On a slightly different point on Saturday morning Israel were claiming that 75% of the 350 people they murdered in Gaza were Hamas terrorists. At the same time it was reported that 70 of the dead were kids. Are Israel saying that everyone who is not a child in Gaza is a terrorist?

.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well unless those in this thread can stay out of the areas of abuse,trolling,baiting,NAME CALLING and arguing with a moderator then it's not going to last like so many like it have not.

If everyone can keep can keep to a sensible debate/discussion then it might break a record..

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well Ive read all I want to regarding this situation. Some of you are so convinced that you are right, yet none of you have any experience whatsoever when dealing with terrorists. The few who have all share the same views.

Militarily, Hamas in the Gaza will be defeated. They will be systemically killed, which, is the only way to deal with terrorists. Personally, I hope the entire Hamas organization is wiped out to a man. They are the lowest form of life, using civvies as cover for their terrorist operations.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

This has nothing to do with fighting terrorists. Hamas are freedom fighters. The Israeli terrorists are slaughtering, men, women and children - its the Israeli terrorists that are the lowest form of life. As long as Israel continue these atrocities they will NEVER live in peace.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think people are just going to have to agree to disagree here because this thread is just bouncing back and forth between the same issues again and again and imo not really going anywere.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

This is Hamas warmongering tactic to score sympathy, aid, and internation damnation of Israel. Reality is, they started it, vollying rockets into a country for 8 yrs and they not doing about it, wasnt going to last forever. Poke someone for long enough there going to retaliate.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Calm down, dear - you're going to blow a blood vessel.

And ahem - Hamas (wiki).

"Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan, and the United States, and is banned in Jordan. Australia and the United Kingdom list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization."

Also

"On 18 June 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia and executive force."

May I ask which governments have listed the Israelis (Government or otherwise) as a terrorist organisation?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Israel broke the ceasefire, not Hamas, as peddled by the media:

This is why they were launching rockets

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9937.shtml

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...005961,00.html

Just as they did in Lebanon:

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2006-08-...eaks-ceasefire

The Israelis are at the root of all evil in the middle east.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The reality is that Palestinians dont have a nation to call their own. The reality is that people in Gaza have been living under a siege. The reality is that they are not allowed to work or move outside Gaza. The reality is that 75% of people in Gaza need foreign aid to survive. The reality is that members of a democratically elected goverment is assasinated by the one country in the Middle East that champions itself as the only democratic state in the region.

The reality is that more women and children have been killed in the last 4 days then the total of all Hamas rockets fired into Isreal in the last 2 years. The reality is that the Israel army defies its own Supreme Court who have said that International journalists can enter Gaza. The reality is that the Israeli goverment believes that unless you're a child in Gaza, then you must be a terrorist.

Is that real enough for you?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

What are the victory conditions for militarily beating Hamas though?

How can you systematically kill every member of an organisation which has the majority support of the populace and blends into the population as required? genocide?

Guerilla wars are unwinnable. The only way to resolve the situation is by mediation, to somehow put the vitriol aside and adopt a balanced attitude towards the situation.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Hamas did not renew the cease fire agreement because they did not want Gaza to continue remaining under siege. It's all very well for people to say Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel, and that they fired trockets as soon as the ceasefire ended.

Very few people actually know the conditions the Israelis imposed on Gaza under the ceasefire, and even fewer people, us included, can truly understand what its like living under those conditions.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Open your eyes. Thats all that is needed.

ps. will you stop following me around this forum and harrassing me please.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

:clap::tu: - we should learn from history, so as not to repeat it.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I honestly believe that the Israeli government would not even blink an eye at the thought of killing the entire population in Gaza.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I quite agree that ultimately, you can't overcome guerillas without some form of negotiated arrangement being agreed, however that shouldn't detract from a couple of unfortunate pieces of misinformation in your post.

Firstly, it's misleading to say that Hamas has 'the majority support of the populace', because that's to ignore the fact that they don't have the majority support of the Palestinian people as a whole. They may command support in Gaza, but that doesn't grant them legitimacy any more than the SNP would have the legitimacy to start creating an independent Scotland by force in Banffshire, just because they have a majority vote there.

Secondly, it's all very well saying that the vitriol must be put to one side, however, by implication your post is critical of Israel, rather than Hamas, whose founding principles include the destruction of Israel. Plenty of vitriol to be put aside there, wouldn't you agree?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

My eyes are open - I try to take in all viewpoints, even those which challenge my preconceptions.

btw, pointing out blatant inaccuracies is a new definition of harassment I haven't come across before. ;)

You still haven't answered my question, have you?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Just to clarify, Gaza is the matter at hand and there are people who will provide moral and material support to the organisation, this doesn't mean to say that they should automatically be sentenced to death. And I quite agree, founding your principles on the destruction of a nation is wholly unacceptable and it's equally important that any member of Hamas who wishes to have a voice in the Palestinian state or the international community needs to renounce this sort of attitude.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I try to take in all viewpoints, even those which challenge my preconceptions.

Yet another falsehood.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Isn't it amazing how quickly this thread has become a 'minime' of what is happening on the ground. People taking extreme points of view, dragging up 'facts' that support their view, ignoring others, getting aggressive and impolite towards their perceived enemies..

In my eyes they're all as bad as one another. Obsessives driven by religous fanaticism or political gain on both sides who override reason and reasonable behaviour. None of them prepared to admit mistakes or consider reasonable compromise despite every lesson from history that only compromise or genocide can ever work.

Until someone smacks their heads together and they start to act like adults and proper representatives of their people the hatred and death will continue to cycle around. Each side killing to 'avenge' some perceived evil from the other, as if that *ever* solved anything.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Good post.

Prior to my last post, I have been of the same opinion. I really posted in response to the masses of posts which continue to condemn one side without looking at the overall picture.

No one is looking to the future, there all busy finding fault & trying to prove blame. Until they sit down & talk, nothing will change.

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------


In your opinion! An opinion that is not shared by other countries. So unless you can provide proof, it will remain, just, your opinion.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Looks more like Reactive Materials (RM) rounds to me, though I'm no expert. And these are designed to leave no residue and are probably not carcinogenic.

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,145298,00.html

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Could you explain, please, how it is necessary for a 'freedom' fighter to have in his founding charter a vow to destroy a neighbouring nation state? It sounds to me like Hamas has rather more in mind than your somewhat naive and simplistic notion of 'freedom fighting'.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It is perhaps worth noting that, according to the Hamas founding charter, they are fighting to retain lands conquered by the muslims.

"Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq, and they asked the Caliph of Muslims, ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, for his view of the conquered land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the possession of its population, or otherwise. Following discussions and consultations between the Caliph of Islam, ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit from it and from its wealth; but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators."

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think it would be more surprising if Hamas didn't think they could justify their aim of re-taking all the land as Palestinian territory. But that simply serves to underline the point I was aiming at wee chaos - whatever Hamas are, they aren't 'freedom fighters'.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Whilst I admire your passion in your beliefs, you're new to this debating lark, it seems to me.

Just saying "no" or "yet another falsehood" or "open your eyes" or "you are all sheeple being fooled by the zionist/illuminati/one-world-government/US Government/single currency/please fill in conspiracy du jour" without actually providing back-up evidence (not from other conspiracy nuts or single-viewpoint websites), just makes you seem as if, how can I put this, you are perhaps a little lacking in intellectual rigour. ;)

I disagree with some of Sir John Luke's viewpoints (and agree with others), but at least his responses are reasoned, not snarky and vituperative (imho) - you would make a lot more friends on this Forum if you realised that disagreement isn't personal, it's just a difference of opinion.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Oh i see, Deluding yourself again. I am not looking to make friends. I wont stand by while people spout thier Zionist propaganda on here and while innocent women and children are shreaded to bits by Israeli superweapons. Lets not forget who broke the cease fire, a point which you convieniently ignore.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9937.shtml

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/Ne...rnational.nasd


http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=75893

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

These kind of responses are exactly the problem chaos.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

As is linking to sites such as this one as 'proof'.

:rolleyes:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Aghhh Ignore him, he is only interested in his conspiracy. Anyway.

Credit to Sarkozy for taking some initiative on this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rael-ceasefire

Same as Russia, Nice having someone who is not tainted by anti-Western feeling that is willing to attempt to work towards a balanced and fair peace. I think it may be countries like France, and hopefully a more considered America, that could act as deal makers in any peace talks.

Both sides must be getting tired of this.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

But what can be done when the two sides hate each other ? I know people are saying there need to be talk's and ceasefire's but they never last one side or the other always kick's things off again.

Glad I am not a politician in todays age.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Looks like Turkey could also play an important role in any discussions with Hamas.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

OK So you wont stand by, what are you going to do then?

Please post your proof regarding Israli "Superweapons" & women & children "shredded to bits".