Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Can we just call it for what it is?

Assisted Suicide.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Labour activisty type (possibly the bill’s sponsor, I don’t know) got very cross during the debate when someone in the debate dared to use the ‘S’ word. Very telling that they don’t want it known for what it is.

Edit … here’s the clip.

https://x.com/josh_self_/status/1862...56-Kgau3lzowJw

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Whether the professional in the room, gives you a rope, gun or syringe, the result is the same.

As I say, I am sympathetic to certain arguments.

But this bill is not good enough.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

As I understood it, you have to have (or at least supposedly have) less than 6 months to live

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Put like that no one can but if you actually stop and think about it properly it becomes a very different proposal, for instance how long will it be before someone who isn't terminally ill screams discrimination and the law changes to accommodate them? Think that's unlikely, just look at Holland where that exact thing happened.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

But from what I’ve understood, trying to make an accurate prognosis of that length in nigh on impossible.

It’s like predicting the weather.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Hawking’s thoughts on the matter - quite nuanced.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...g-9611930.html

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

As evidenced by one of the bills biggest supporters, Esther Rantzen, who went on a bit of a guilt trip a while back saying she wouldn't be here for the debate only now to be telling everyone how surprised she is to still be here.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Bottom line for me is what has it got to do with anyone else. And think of the trama, it saves the train driver, person that finds a body hanging, ( yes I have) etc. The cost argument doesn't hold water , 6 months less cost to NHS far out weighs any cost.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

So anyone that wants to kill themselves ……just let them do it?


That’s a bit sick, well….. a lot sick.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

To be fair those that really want to kill themselves do. I know this is a different subject though and more likely linked to mental illness that terminal illnesses. Most attempted suicides are cries for help

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

I've been looking into this lately and the
problem is that a lot don't know how to do it properly. They either end up having a slow terrible death or survive and are disabled as a result of the damage caused by their attempt.

This is a subject that i"m torn on. I have sympathy for those that say that God should choose when we leave this Earth and (as I believe that the meaning of life is for us to learn and, hopefully, grow from lifes experiences, both good and bad), having a terrible death may be something that it was intended for us to learn from.

On the other hand, we put animals to sleep in preference to letting them suffer. To prolong their suffering just so that we can spend a little more time with them is extremely selfish and i've had to do this myself on more than one occasion.

My view on this subject is also influenced by the fact that I have had proof that death isn't final, so the subject isn't as daunting for me as it is for someone who believes that it is truly the end.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Totally agree with that. Depending if someone goes through with it but saved by some reason, that's not a cry for help.

My neighbour went through a bit of a crisis, the person would knock on my door and say "I've taken a lot of pills" etc. So I had to call 999. This kind of thing is a classic kind of cry for help. This is certainly classed as a mental health issue and a cry for help, this actually happened numerous times.

But if you have no quality of life, and in severe constant pain etc but not terminal. Fully aware of the intentions because enough is enough, then shouldn't that also be discussed? That's nothing to do with a mental health issue.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Agreed.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Yes, what has it got to do with a random stranger, close family I guess , of cause if they really want to kill themselves they will , this way it would be less stressful. Forcing your view on someone else is what is sick.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

The fallacy that personal choice is the ultimate good is dangerous. We do not live in an atomised non-society in which any individual can make a choice about anything without that having any implications for anyone else. We therefore have laws which regulate behaviour in ordered society. And, in one way or another, every law forces a view on those individuals who may wish they were not bound by that law, but are bound by it all the same. This is not sick. To claim it is, is bizarre.

One person’s freedom to choose to die will now come at the cost of creating a mechanism that can - and will - work against those whose palliative care is a burden on family and the State and who will feel a persistent, gentle pressure to make themselves scarce. For me, one person’s right to choose is not worth someone else feeling obliged to kill themselves. Not at all.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Errr... what ? :erm:

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

So if your daughter said to you that she wanted to kill herself, You wouldn’t urge her to explore any avenue to avoid that conclusion?

And if that person has no family, they shouldn’t have “someone” put that outlet to them?

---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

Box office.

How is Elvis?

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

:tu:

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Approximately half of people believe in life after death, with many having seen or heard from people that were so called 'dead'.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Not a fact, or proof of anything.

There’s also no such thing as “so called dead”, I believe the state is binary in nature.

But I fear we’re drifting into philosophical territory.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Belief is not a fact.
Anyone can say they "heard from people that were so called 'dead'".

If there were any actual real evidence, it would be headline news.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

I use the term 'so called dead' because the state of death doesn't exist.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------

It doesn't matter whether people believe in it or not, the process is just the same.

To those who don't believe (I can understand this if they haven't had proof personally) all I say is to bear it in mind. That way, when your time comes and you 'wake up dead', it won't be as surprising, confusing or even frightening.

It's not unknown for some people not to know that they've 'died'. They can still see, hear, think etc and so initially it doesn't occur to them that this change has happened.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Worldwide I suspect that actually a lot more than half of people believe in life after death. Humanism is largely a Western idea, and isn’t universally popular here either.

Nonetheless, in some of your later posts on this I think you’ve gone a bit overboard. None of the major world religions are anything like so didactic about the precise mechanism by which someone passes from this life to the next. I’m a Christian minister, I lead services every Sunday and I take funerals several times every year, yet I would never try to tell anyone how things happen with such detail.

Your problem is you are trying to make scientific-sounding pronouncements as if they have been, or could be, scientifically verified. That is impossible - the scientific method is, by design, limited to measurable, repeatable interactions within the material universe.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

how exactly do you know this?

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Michael Aspel's Strange but True?

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

That is not the same as having the right in the end ( sorry for the pun) to choose for yourself. In my case I have a gun :shocked:

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

you’re going to have to qualify that……….unless you’re a Hindu.


This is next level batshit

I don’t know where to start.

“Wake up dead”? Do you know many awoken dead people? That have explained this to you?

---------- Post added at 20:06 ---------- Previous post was at 19:53 ----------

Yes a bottle of whiskey and a gun…………

Instead of forcing people to drink a bottle of whiskey and blow their brains out, Can’t we give them a more less stressful way out, in a clinic?


My point being, we should not, as a society, be allowing depressed, troubled, or other issue, healthy adult wishing to think they have no value, nothing to offer to the world, or to themselves, and wanting to end it. They need to be counselled.

Assisted suicide should, in general, only be considered for terminally ill were you are going to deteriorate beyond the state of the person you are, and can no longer function as you. A clumsy definition but. I.e. MND, Alzheimer’s (difficult one to sort)

Or were the illness is too painful to continue with or leaves you with no quality of life

There are definitions we can work on.

But healthy people should be allowed to be euthanised

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

:erm:

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

We live in a material world, so it's nigh on impossible to provide proof as we know it of something spiritual.

After our soul leaves the body we are spirit only, we are actually spirit now, but encased in a physical body. Those who have 'died' sometimes communicate with us in various ways.

I'm a very practical person and wouldn't believe this unless I had had personal proof that life continues after we leave here, so I can understand people being skeptical.

When your time comes, like I say, just bear it in mind as I think it will help. There's no need to be frightened, someone comes to collect you, so nobody ever 'dies' alone.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

Nobody’s surprised you believe in life after death Richard. Plenty of people do. I do. The objections here are with the extremely specific descriptions you’re giving of how it occurs in the immediate moments after death. I don’t think you can offer such uncompromising descriptions of things the human race has struggled with and argued over for millennia without expecting some pushback. We need some context. Sentences like “I died on the operating table and before they brought me back, this is what happened… “ or “My friend had a near-death experience and this is what he saw …” would be helpful.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

whoops! missing a "not" there.

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

The bills already being watered down, they're trying to remove the judicial oversight element in favour of a expert panel, the thing I've always worried about was once introduced it'd be watered down due to discrimination over time, I never envisaged it'd get watered down before it became law though :spin:

Re: A Duty To Die?
 

The committee was stacked with true believers. It was always going to be shredded back to its ideological bare bones at this stage. The only silver lining here is that sound oversight is the only reason some MPs voted for it at 2nd reading. Without that, they may not stick with it. It doesn’t need too many MPs to change their vote to fall.