Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

it's not reducing heavy downloaders to tears, what it is doing is affecting people who do the majority of their surfing when they get home, it is most definately not affecting heavy downloaders, as i think you will find in several threads they say themselves they dont care because they just download after 12pm.

it seems that you are labeling everyone who complains as someone who downloads illegal content and that seems to be the whole basis of your argument.

so how about you do me a lemon

and i think you'll find i haven't "flamed" anyone, however i have an opinion just like you.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

I agree! :)
I really disagree when people accuse anyone who complains as being an illegal downloader or they are the reason anyway why all this throttling is there for. there were hardly any problems at all with speeds for everyone before the 20MB and the throttling. but all of a sudden there is loads of problems. why????! :Yikes:

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

(i got bored again :dunce:), came up with this using slightly sketchy numbers and my math may be off (more than likely it is lol). i based it on how long it took me to download 400mb which was about 15 mins, if anyone wants to correct it feel free as i'm not very good at this kind of thing just looking for insight. this is what traffic shaping is doing to the various packages.

4pm - 12 am - 8 hours traffic shaping is in effect

2mb = 6.4gb max traffic / shaped for 6 hours = 3.2gb @ 1mb speed + 700mb @ 2mb speed

4mb = 12.8gb max traffic / shaped for 6 hours 40 minutes @ 2mb = 6.4gb @ 2mb speed + 1.5gb @ 4mb speed

10mb = 32gb max traffic / shaped 7 hours 20 minutes @ 5mb = 16gb @ 5mb speed + 6gb @ 10mb speed

20mb = 64gb max traffic / shaped 7 hours 40 minutes @ 5mb = 16gb @ 5mb speed + 6gb @ 20mb speed

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Just a thought:
If its people maxing out their UPLOAD speed that causes more impact on the whole network, why not INSTEAD of limiting download speeds, why not just limit the upload speeds during peak time, then anyone that wants to download can, and still that small majority that just use the net for emails and general browsing could still do so!

Or am I talking bubbles?

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Users have been crying out for decent uplaods for years, we still have crap uploads, the fact is the ISP needs to spend cash on upgrades instead of pocketing or wasting profits (read yesterdays news).

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

so if im reading you right florence, they told you or implyed, that this whole 5% figure perhaps comes from as far back as the 512k download days for the amount of data that could be downloaded in the 24 hours and hence the figure for tier's we see today?.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

And that is basically the problem. Companies want your money but they dont want you to use *what is advertised*. Even now there is no clear link to their new FUP (not AUP) on the signup page. And muck talk about 'unlimited' Why would a casual Web Browser even care about 'unlimited'. The Advertising Standards Agengency or whoever need to give these companies a big kick up the backside.

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/webs...duct.do?id=227

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

are you making the classic mistake of assuming that the AUP is the contract?, it's not.

the T&C is the only consumer contract, and theres the matter of 'reciprication' any clause most cover both partys in equal measure or it can become null and void.

true you may need to fill out a county court fileing, or report the matter to Ofcom for them to get/seek assurances from the company that they will not try and enforce any null contract clause, but the option is there if you are willing to write the letter and send it registered post at minimal costs.

the moral is 'just because someone writes a clause into the consumer contract doesnt make it right or proper or lawful', challenge it and see how long it lasts, and that goes for any consumer contract even cable and ADSL broadband service providers.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

i was just thinking and thought i remembered there being no mention in the original contract of any kind of a limit or restriction and no mention of a fair use clause. either way that is all in the past now as i accepted the new contract which does mention fair use/acceptable use when i got upgraded for free because my old stb broke.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

and its also understood that the 'Autobahns' is engineered for the given amount of traffic per hour and allowances made for peak times, put more traffic on there than it was designed for at peak, and the need for traffic shaping I.e speed limits becomes a factor FOR SAFETY reasons.

its also assumed that the owners will be monitoring the needs of the traffic, and if its seen that there is a growing need to add more capacity as your selling more machines, they build on another lane or two all the way from your entry point to the most popular destinations with a view that its better to spend the tax money on moving the traffic faster than risk the major pileup day after day, every day....

---------- Post added at 01:35 ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 ----------

the moral is 'just because someone writes a clause into the consumer contract doesnt make it right or proper or lawful', challenge it and see how long it lasts.

perhaps if people started posted here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...xed-broadband/ and asking/posting the right questions, they may get some good advice as to the law and their rights and protections under it, just as they did with the banks charges and forcing the companys to refund the unlawful charges and and perhaps have them reform the consumer contracts for the long term good of all.

---------- Post added at 02:22 ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 ----------

i cant see anyone saying you need to justyfy your choice of broadband package, but seeing as you bring it up, it does seem that you would have to justify it to your mum and dad who are paying for the account your using....

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Good points, but generally in any network, road or data, you will reach a crunch point that occurs for a while whilst that extra lane is built. And during the building time you can expect even more pain. It could easily be argued that this is where the VM network currently is at. The extra lane needs building, but they are currently planning the lane etc.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Right, for the final time.

IT IS A SPEED RESTRICTION! YOU CAN STILL DOWNLOAD AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE!

That probably still won't register with most people, but you have to stop saying its a limited service - it's not!

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

YES IT IS! And whining in massive letters will not change this fact. As you say, the speed is limited, thus the service *is* limited in some way.

---------- Post added at 11:02 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

You don't, but your basic arguement seems to be that shaping is great because "I have never been shaped", but this appears to be by virtue of the fact that you have a connection that massively outweights your needs.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Which brings us back to the use of the word unlimited, when there is quite clearly limits in place :)

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Indeed, when flawed assumptions are the only way to backup your point of view you have to wonder how valid that point of view is.

Quite!

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

I think this thread is getting way out of hand openly flaming members of this forum isn't good for anyone IMHO. VM really have made a complete cock up with this one, it cannot be just a coincidence that they implement TSM just as they go to 20mb really was a dumb move on there part. A hell of a lot of areas cannot sustain a constant 10mb let alone 20mb. So people leave there downloads (illegal or not makes no difference what you download) till after midnight and then the complaints will begin cos everyone is hitting it at the same time and the speeds are crap. TSM is there to try and make the network cope with all the increased bandwidth that is going to be used so everyone has a better internet experience, fine by me but at the end of the day VM really should have made sure they could supply the required bandwidth before selling it. The demand is there but the supply clearly isnt isn't in some areas. I really don't care about TSM or 20 mb but if my connection goes to pot because VM cannot supply my service what i pay for and they agreed to then i will complain, same as when they get it right i say so i certainly will not vehemently defend a company that is at best unable to cope with the problems that they are experiencing and will continue to experience no matter how much TSM is implemented.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

This from the person who's pretty much denounced everyone who disagree's with STM *must* be a bandwidth hogging, warez downloading thief!


My daddies bigger than yours ;) LOL

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Best post I've read for ages. Hear Hear

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

You really like to get screwed over, you are clueless ands ISP's love users like you that take it all lying down and still pay for more.

Learn not to type in non SHOUTING TEXT, I aint blind, shows how much a idiot you are anyhow.

The current service IS LIMITED be it amount or speed.

---------- Post added at 13:00 ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 ----------

Not many users hear like Paul, your one of few, I think you need to go read up on why the network cant cope with 10meg nevermind 20meg, it has nothing to do with this so called "5%" of heavy users.

I give you 2 hints:

1) Oversubsription

2) Profits not used to upgrade network, bare min spent to keep it running, Just.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

For crying out loud, WHO is being screwed over? The people who deserve to be screwed over!

DO NOT call me an idiot. As I said previously I know a lot more than you think I know. Don't let my age put you off. In fact don't call me an idiot when you are missing out words from your sentence!!!

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Err - I think you are actually wrong on this one. The network can cope with 20meg - try and read up with how a cable network actually works and you might understand it better. I know it's not something you are taught in schools, but you should be able to find out somewhere

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

I thought I'd just add my opinion to this debate.
I would not have a problem with shaping if the limits were reasonable. 750MB on my 4Mb connection is nothing. the latest command and conquer demo is 1.2Gb. 450MB over the limit. The same can be said about a demo on xbox live. The limits are too low. I think 5Gb for a 4Mb connection (per night) is fair.
If virgin really want to be a media giant they should let us watch more than 45 minutes of HD content on an evening before butchering your speed. You can stream high def content well at 4Mb but trying it at 2Mb is very difficult.
The thing I object to most is the fact that it has been imposed without any kind of consultation with users and without dropping the price as it is a restricted service now. I used to recommend cable to everyone who could get it, but not anymore. It's not half as apealing as it used to be.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

That'll be just about everyone that pays them money then :)

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Talk sense or shut up, and sure I make typos but I dont type with the CAPLOCK on and at least users with half a brain can see the typos and still make sence of the postings.

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:36 ----------

Actually the network cant cope because there are too many users now, so you need to go read up not me, VM/NTL got greedy.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Actually, I was arguing it wasn't an extra limit, as by buy 20 meg service, you are already limited by speed, and all shaping does is slow downloads. Why do you mentioned being made to leave the M1? If the autorities forced you to slow down after you had driven so many miles, you'd have a point, but they don't.

Where is this report then? Bear in mind that (admittedly years ago), I spoke to someone who actually had access to the bandwidth usage reports that NTL use (the actual reports generated by the network hardware) and he said roughly the same as VM do now.
While I agree that Virgin Media could be spending a lot more on the network, how do you know that most (if not all) UBRs are oversubscribed?

The analogy is valid because both networks (the Road and VMs) have fixed capacities. In both cases there are far more users than they can cope with. In both cases, it is not economically or physically practical to expand the network enough so that everyone can max out their usage.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Don't tell me to shut up.:mad::mad::mad::mad: This is my final post on this thread, I can't be bothered to respond to personal attacks on me. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

No company in the world is going to offer a service they cannot keep up. I've got a constant 20meg connection here at the moment, you can't be telling me that the service I have got is due to the network "not coping". Really you should read up on the facts about this, and in fact any other cable technology.

And also learn how to treat others with respect, not telling me I'm an idiot and telling me to shut up. :mad::mad::td:

So buh-bye all, I've got my opinion, and I know that Virgin is providing me a very good service, throttling or not.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Shut up :), you are going to blow a bloodvessel and you are the one who started the crap talk then like most "Internet Rambos", tries to make yourself look like the victim, you said in 1 post we are not limited, then a few posts later you admit we are limited in a way, some contradiction IMO. :)

Before Oct 2006 I was also on a great A1 at Lloyds service.

P.S, You obv have anger issues going by large TEXT and red smilies, you could relieve some of that pressure by getting a G/F or downloading some Pr0n.

F.A.O Staurt the Mod, the report on users bandwidths was either in a thread here or on other forum Digitalspy, its a few weeks now so no idea what you could use as keywords to search for it, the "Average Joe 6 Pack" makes up most users and so most of the bandwidth, there has always been a % of heavy users that showed no ill effects till recently on 10meg, it was fine uptill and at start of 10meg and yes its due to oversubscription on my UBR as I have been told so by VM 2nd Line as I stated before in threads.

The part about profits not being used to upgrade network was front page news on here or forum mentioned above with heading something like " VM payup and stop whining".

Edit: hXXp://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=576217

I see today the OP had admited he made errors and has now corrected them, I am just reading it myself.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Give it a break now yeah? I'm fed up of you thinking you are the big "I am".

We aren't limited in the sense that I meant it, we are limited in the fact of speed, but then you are anyway with internet servers slow uploads so quit your whining. I don't think I'm an "internet Rambo", I just think you have issues which somehow make you "better" than everyone else.

I don't have anger issues, and I'm leaving now. I can't be bothered to discuss this issue with people like you who have one opinion and thats it. You are not even considering other peoples points of view, which is useless on a discussion board.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Goodbye

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

There is so much wrong with the way this has been brought in I wish VM would reconsider, but I doubt they will.

1) Their information page on this blatently lies, when it says only the top 5% will be affected, when really it's everyone over the limit, so could be 100% of people.

2) If they are so keen on targeting the top 5% then why don't they, they must know who the people are who constantly max out their connections.

3) Despite peoples attempts to deny otherwise, the service is limited, if on my 4Mb link I could download 40GB in a day (I don't it's just a guess) then as I no longer will be able to my service is being limited and I am not getting the service I paid for. It is incorrect to say "But the downloads are unlimited", because again they are not as I would be unable to get as many downloads done in the time, they too are therefore limited.

4) The cap limits are too small but also done over too short of a timescale, almost everyone will at some point want to download something large which will put them over the limit for the evening, it would be better for example if it only applied if your weekly average was over the limit.

5) If their network can't handle 20Mb then they shouldn't offer it, I assume it can handle 10Mb for everyone all of the time if that's what they are dropped to when exceeding the limit.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

I'm on 4 meg. So downloading one Linux CD ISO would use up almost all my allowance. Seems a bit harsh to me..

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

The 10meg was ok at first but has been crap for many for 6-8 months due to oversubsription (In my area anyhow), some say the 20meg drops to 5meg not 10meg, I aint sure as I aint went over limit yet.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

yea true.

it seems virgin are still working with thier 512k service way back 5 years ago lol.

complain to ispa.

---------- Post added at 08:41 ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 ----------

yes ur right they drop the 20mb to 5mb, if u go over the limit, talk about limited service lol.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

Because there are companies which dosn't add 200ms to your ping when you download a 4Mb file in peak time.

No, that'd be creating a network with a reasonable amount of network bandwidth, and not overselling (If that means you have to offer a slower service, SO BE IT!). Oh, and kicking the 24/7 download abusers off. This is a viable alternative, afaik. I'm sure you won't like it...but it is an alternative.

The "reach for speed" in British broadband, when you cannot then use that speed, is self-destructive to the industry. Certain press from VM criticising caps on other services, when they restrict their own network in other ways, are also downright wrong as far as I'm concerned and I've complained about them as misleading.

Re: how about we start a campaign to let VM know that we DONT LIKE SHAPING
 

agree with the bit about network bandwidth