Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I thought The Fall were a dodgy Mark E Smith band from the eighties. Shi*e as they were it's hardly fair to go blaming them for all that's wrong with the world.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

There's an answer for everything it seems to explain the glaring holes.


Each one more incredible than the next.

---------- Post added at 19:00 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I thought it was 'cos Rincewind went back in time & dropped a sandwich ;)



Seriously, here's a good Wiki entry about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life


And here's an entry on a classic experiment regarding the origin of life:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment




As Xaccers has already said, most mutations are neutral rather than positive or negative.

Whether they have a positive or negative effect depends on the environment.


One example of a beneficial mutation is that of sickle cell anaemia.

There are others.


Info on mutations:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html


Ah, the eye :D


No one claims that the eye arose spontaneously.


It's possible to demonstrate how the eye could have developed via evolution.


Also, if the eye was Created, rather than being a product of evolution, then it contains some glaring design flaws.

I already mentioned all this back here:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34277680-post207.html


And some links from that post:

http://www.2think.org/eye.shtml

http://www.2think.org/eye_response.shtml

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Paleontol...reationism.htm

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part8.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/jury-rigged.html



Ah, Dawkins... :(


I find his fanatical anti-religion stance rather uncomfortable, & feel he plays into the hands of what he would consider his opponents.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

To be honest, believing in god is one thing, but to believe in the bible is another thing. Surely there is no way that anyone could truly believe that we all sprang from 2 people, that Noah built an ark for every animal in the world and re-populated the Earth or that Moses parted the Red Sea. Surely no one could even believe that the Earth is only thousands of years old?


By conceding that some of the events in the bible may be incorrect or simply metaphorical is not conceding that there is not a god, just that maybe in light of new evidence through the ages, it maybe didn't happen exactly like the bible said it did. Religion digs its heels in when it is faced with overwhelming facts and this only harms its cause and makes people question it. Religion, like science, should be able to adapt when new findings are uncovered. We are only just starting to learn about our Universe. Could that not be the case with God for those who believe he exists?


What would be wrong with saying that God created the big bang and then the Earth evolved in the way that science proves that it did? It wouldn't be saying that their was no God, but just adapting what you know to fit what we know in this day and age to be true concerning the formation of the planets. Going down the road with the 7 days argument amongst others is only causing people who are better informed in this day and age to then question the shaky biblical logic.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The trouble is the Abraham religions and some others are based around ideas that have suppose to have come from an all knowing being.

Read Leviticus. It has some examples of cherry picking morals. There's a lot of good advice in there, such as personal hygene and not eating animals that died suspeciously, but there's also the odd thing about stoning spirit talkers, taking slaves etc. All which have supposed to have been relayed directly from god.

If you openly admit these principles have changed you undermine divine authority. Naturally the principles can be adapted but this will split the organised religion into seperate philosophies and undermine good religious work or destroy the tyranical mind hold. Whatever your point of view.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So why do modern day Christians not adhere to the laws that were laid down by Leviticus?

If these were set down by God then surely they must follow these?

You ask any Christian about Leviticus and you can see how uncomfortable they are with the whole thing. Very rarely will they concede defeat because that would be denouncing their religion in their view, but they seem to simply adopt a selective memory when it comes to Leviticus and other aspects of the old testament, preferring to concentrate on The New Testament when God seemed altogether more decent.

The standard response to explain the Old Testament atrocities is usually to state that God 'mellowed' when Jesus arrived and made things good between God and man(or some twaddle along those lines).

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Question for Chris, if you discarded the old testament how many holes would be left?

(for sake of the topic this includes creation story)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

For a start, you said that it was an absurdity to suppose that an eye simply arose spontaneously. We have demonstrated that it didn't arise spontaneously, and the process by which that probably occurred. Also, it probably is statistically likely for it to occur since we have many examples of less functional eyes in the animal kingdom.....creatures with single celled light receptors, others with groups of cells recognising movement, inverted views, all the way up to us....
Of course this doesn't prove that the process occurred but it demonstrates how it might (and probably did) occur. Contrast that with the creationists argument of 'it just happened because god willed it and thats that' (you might as well say 'it's magic') and you might see why us atheists are a tad exasperated at creationists trying to rubbish our account of evolution by picking holes in it when creationists only have a big black hole where their explanation should be......

---------- Post added at 20:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------


I like the avatar AJ :tu:


:notopic: :D

---------- Post added at 20:36 ---------- Previous post was at 20:32 ----------

You sir, are a dude! :D

Towny, would you like to reconsider your position on 'the eye' in light of the information above? :D

---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

....and that, I think, is the nub of the matter.
Why should the christian version of the creation be taught as science when there are so many other gods that have been and are worshipped, each also without a shred of evidence for their existence (other than wishful and circular) thinking?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I'm wondering where it would leave us athiests if ID was taught in Science.After all it is very much against the ethos of our beliefs and why should we be forced to have our children forced to learn something we firmly believe to be twaddle and unscientific.Could we insist that we can withdraw our children from any science lessons on ID?Or could we perhaps be allowed to have a chance to put our point of view about religion in RS lessons? ;)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well since it can't be proved there is a god, and since it can't be proved there is no god. Perhaps believing there is no god is a leap of faith (albeit a smaller one) and that should be taught in RS.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I have to agree with what Chris said about the eye.
It is an absurdity to suggest that the eye simply arose spontaniously, which is why it's no suprise that the people saying "the eye developed spontaniously" are creationists, not evolutionists.
I've never heard an evolutionist say that the eye simply arose spntaniously, it's always been discussed in the form of how it was likely to have developed, from light responsive cells (you have some of these at the back of your knees if memory of jet lag treatments serves) through to more developed organs.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Cells are very canny things, as you know whenan embryo is growing you start of with stem cells, stem cells have the ability to become anything, Skin tissue, liver tissue, eye tissue etc.

There smaller organisms that when required can change their cells back into stem cells and use them for different things when required.

Not forgetting creatures that can spontaneously change sex and grow back limbs

I'm not saying that cell in creature just spontaneously became eye tissue, but the scope is there for them to change for the benefit of the organism. Life is all about having the edge on your competitor for food and survival, one one organism started producing light sensitive cells, so would others and the complexity would increase through generations until you had the wonderful organ we know have.

Lets not forget that insects deveoped eyes but in a completely different way, a way that suited them. I would have thought if one person was controlling what organs we had he would have given insects small versions of our eyes - mean if the eye is so complex and difficult why would you throw out the design you'd spent ages doing?? and go with something completely different.

Also what of the mole a creature that lives underground all it's life - Wht does it have eyes, the eyes it has are bordering on useless. That's not very intelligent design is it?

If the mole was a creature that had been designed to do the job it does why was he given eyes. Unless of course once upon a time he didn't live underground, but then saw a niche market for a mammal that could live underground safe from predators?

Also evolution moves at different speeds for different organisms. We're very complex and therefore changes to use are relatively slow also we are a special case as we don't need to evolve very much any more becuase we have the power to change the environment around us. However, we are all getting bigger - I'm 6'5" and would be considered a giant of a man only a couple of hundred years ago. How tall will my desendants be in say 50,000 years

Bacteria/viruses because they are simple organism and their life cycle is short and reproduction cycle high can evolve very quickly - MRSA has become resistant to penicilan very quickly and viruses can change to airborn variants quickly.

The evidence of an organisms ability to change their physical properties are all around us today

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Can I just clarify something?


Do the creationists on the forum believe that evolution does not exist in any shape or form(God made us how we are today and we haven't changed at all since then) or is it the viewpoint that although you believe we were created by God, we have actually evolved and are different to what we were at the time of creation.


In other words, do you actually believe in evolution, regardless of how you think we primarily arrived here?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Read the thread. I believe in some evolution in animals, not in humans.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yes but which humans Russ?
You never did get around to answering post 182.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So you believe we look exactly the same now as what we did when the first humans roamed the Earth. Is that correct?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Sorry, had other things on my mind. I'm talking about homosapians. I believe the others are close relatives to humans.

I don't believe there is any real physical difference between us and Adam and Eve.

And let's hope your response stays on topic...

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

And your explaination for the diversity between caucasoids, negroids and mongoloids who all stemmed from one family?

As for the close relatives, are they human or animals?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Not wanting this to sound PC but when it comes to God's creations, I don't consider physicalities such as colour be 'differences'. To be honest I don't have an issue with the notion that Adam and Eve were dark skinned. It goes back to what I said earlier about being humanoid. That's the design I believe God made for us - humans in humanoid form. An odd thing to say but that's for the sake of the circling sharks who will ask if I'm including apes as 'humanoids'.

---------- Post added at 15:33 ---------- Previous post was at 15:32 ----------

No idea, never thought it important.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Negroids alone would challenge the one race theory as the have tallest and shortest peoples amongst their numbers or isn't that relevant?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Homo neandethals then? If they are close relatives, when did they offshoot from Noah's familiy and did they evolve?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well as shown above there are difference in how the skin reacts with sunlight.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

No idea, I wasn't there.

But still human.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

You weren't there to see the garden of eden, or adam and eve either, but do you dismiss them too?

Do you believe neandethals evolved?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

No, they're written about in Genesis.

Never spent much time worry about it. Probably not though.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Does it feel pointless yet?

All the questions where I think "Good question, explain that?" and "That contradicts everything so far" Not to the point in scoring points against but as in the very basic of discussion on both parts. It's the fact that blatant disregard will beg for more questions and so forth.

So far all the answers has ended up "no idea, still believe. Don't care wasn't there. And? So?" to a point avoidance is so blatant it's a little bit erm 'deflating'.

So it really is pointless, you can have 100% proof and throw it on the table and it will be dismissed. This isn't a conversion of any kind, but it seems like those that believe don't like to discuss it, it is therefore end of.

If any one asks me a question where I'd hope to give an honest answer to any question. But I can't see that happening here. Shame.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Adam and Eve?


Come on now, for goodness sake, surely no one actually believes that to be literal? There are many Christians(ones that are clearly capable of reason) I have spoken to have even admitted that they believe it was metaphorical.


How can every race and colour in the world have evolved from the same 2 people (bearing in mind the bible depicts Adam and Eve as Caucasian). Please explain that to me. How is that possible?


Now you can't say evolution to explain any of the differences because you have already said you don't believe in that. Besides, if the Earth is only 15,000 years old as believed by the Christians then this would not be enough time to evolve so drastically anyway.


How do you explain the vast differences between Neanderthal man and ourselves if you don't believe in evolution? The difference in skull size and shape? The obvious difference in general bone structure, appearance and posture?


What about Cro-magnon man and his differences from both Neanderthals and ourselves?


What about Aborigines, Native Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Eskimos, Africans, Egyptians, Arabs? Why are they all so different in terms of size and appearance if evolution doesn't exist and we all evolved from the same 2 white people?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

You really need to take more of an interest in Christianity than just skimming the surface in order to ridicule. I bet you didn't know that not all of us believe exactly the same things.

Here's something I bet you didn't know.

"Faith is personal".

There are things Chris T and I disagree on when it comes to our faith. That doesn't make his or my beliefs any less valid. Why? Because it's personal.

Where does it depict that? Is that another armchair expert's view?

Again, skimming the surface in order to ridicule isn't doing your case any good. You want to point out where I said I don't believe in evolution?

I could give my answer to that only you wouldn't accept it.

As above.

Ditto

Noah transcended time and space? Wow I must have missed The Bible 2007. Anyway if you have any genuine questions, I suggest you look on www.godandscience.org - the only problem there is you've got no-one to try and ridicule.

Welcome back to the forum btw.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

You argue with reason and logic and they give you clichés and references to the great storybook. They refuse to acknowledge the contradictions in the bible, the gaping holes and even the parts that show God to be an evil vindictive tyrant.


The selective memory pops out and they tell you it's all about faith and that you don't understand. But I do understand. I understand the need to believe that there is something else out there. I understand the childhood brainwashing or religion preying on the vulnerable(why do so many people find god in prison or when they are contemplating suicide?). I understand the need to find reason in a world with so many unknowns and the fact that faith is the only reason you get up in the morning and don't fear your death. God is hope for the hopeless, and sadly they are in vast numbers. But they are dwindling and in a few generations they will probably be on the brink of extinction(much like the dinosaurs that they cannot seem to explain convincingly)


I have no problems with most religious people who, for the most part, are harmless and simply spaced-out gullable wackos who enjoy preying or singing naff songs to a non-existent being they have never met, seen or spoken to. If it makes them feel better, then what's the harm?. But then you get the evil ones. The real nutjobs who take it too far and want to burn homosexuals and unmarried pregnant women. The Leviticus types I call them. That's when religion is shown up as the evil monster most of us know it is.


But you are right, it's pretty pointless.

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

Sigh, so many questions and you prove time and time again that you simply aren't equipped to provide convincing answers. You deny and deflect and dance round every single one of them.


Kind of sums up the Christian church. Half baked truths and no answers.



Show me an illustrated bible where Adam and Eve are not shown as Caucasian.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I seem to remember a DNA expert saying our ancestry can be traced back to a remarkably few individuals, perhaps as few as 12 people

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

That seems a strange thing to say......
Faith is of course personal, but that doesn't necessarily make the thing you have faith in correct. With two differing viewpoints' one, or both of you really has to be wrong......and to keep up the belief that each of you has an equally valid point of view is bizarre.


If you and Chris were colourblind and really believed that the sky is green and purple respectively (because you each felt the bible told you so), your faith in what you think the colour of the sky is would be misplaced.

---------- Post added at 20:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------

That doesn't mean that there were only twelve people to begin with. There could have been twelve thousand at that time, it's just that all of us are decended from twelve of those; the rest of the genetic lines didn't make it to the present day......

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Right, ok, point taken. So you can carry on with your views and I can carry on with mine yeah? Seeing as my life and lifestyle in no way encroaches on your own I can carry on without any digs?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Erm, you pointed it out here:

---------- Post added at 20:08 ---------- Previous post was at 20:07 ----------

But it's ok for you to answer every one of my valid questions with little patronising retorts?


Why not actually just answer the questions that are put to you?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Thats the problem, christians are trying to encroach on our lifestyles by proposing to fill our kids heads with ID nonsense.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Because I can't.

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

But this has gone past the ID question. This is just the regular Christianity free-for-all.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Except they aren't, seeing as the ID nonsense is an issue for American schools to deal with

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Sigh..I'm invisible again...I've already stated that ID is being taught as part of RS and is presented as an introductory topic for year 7 in the first term.:rolleyes:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Aren't ID/Creationism also taught in certain "City Academies" here too... the Peter Vardy ones?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

That's a science lesson now is it

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So kids aren't told the story of God and Jesus at schools in the UK?

They aren't involved in nativity plays depicting the birth of Jesus?

They don't get forced to attend Church services at Easter and Christmas to celebrate the birth and re-birth of Jesus?


Sorry, but can't remember the last time I heard of a primary school putting on a performance of 'monkey to man'. Or actually taught evolution in any way for that matter.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I've found this thread to be really informative.

The stuff about the eye is fascinating. I'm going with the evolution theory on that one - because it goes some considerable way to explaining how Mrs Angry now has them in the back of her head but they are nowhere to be seen in photos of her when she was younger.

In the greater scheme of things I don't really care how we all came about, but I'd like to tip my hat in appreciation to whoever / whatever came up with the idea of "lady bumps".

Fantastic!

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Giving Japanese men the smallest penises in the world was a bit cruel though.


Cue, "do you have evidence to back that up" reply.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Nativity plays are quite different to teaching ID in science lessons, as for Easter is seems that most of our youth seem to think it's about chocolate rather than a religious event according to polls I saw a couple of weeks back

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Oh come on. If you(as a teacher) tell a kid about the birth of Christ and they will believe it is true. You are an adult and a teacher and they are young and impressionable so why would they doubt it?

You go to a church and a grown up man in full tribal dress stands in front of you telling you the story of Jesus and asking you to sing songs in his honour. Why would any kid think for a moment that what they are being told is untrue?

The fact they get chocolate as well is incidental. The story of Jesus(they are told this is the "true meaning") is already ingrained.

Kids should be given both sides of the story and left to decide but they aren't. They are given one side and that's all. Only when they get older and more informed can they break free. But for some it's too late, normally because their parents have assisted in the brainwashing and they simply become too far gone.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The birth is true and even if people believe he wasn't the Son of God, he was still a great man that changed the world, actually the 'chocolate thing' proves they weren't given either side of the 'story', seeing as none of them knew quite why they were receiving it, obviously you could point to the fact that they were being interviewed on the radio, but then that shouldn't detract from the fact that the reason they were being interviewed was due to polls conducted by one of the Sunday rags

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Lure them in with chocolate then attack them with religious doctrine.


I do believe there was man called Jesus and I do believe he had a great following and probably claimed to be the son of god(and that many of his followers believed him).

I don't believe he was the son of god or that he was resurrected after his death.

Charles Manson had a massive following also.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I thought eggs represented the stone of the tomb he was in. If I'm wrong then blame my teachers. I thought that was true right up to this day, and I'm 35.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Gene Wilder was way better than Johnny Depp!!

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

You are correct. Eggs represent the tomb stone.


It's a way of appealing to kids and making the story fun for them, then trying to bring them into the fold. It's all a bit suspect if you ask me.

---------- Post added at 20:57 ---------- Previous post was at 20:54 ----------

Johnny Depp was a slave driver and a sex pest.


According to one of the Oompa Loompas I spoke to. But he wouldn't go on record for fear of being sacked(he has 6 little Oompas to feed), so I don't have a link to back up my statement, before anybody asks.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Stunning post, you are comparing a man that said love your neighbour to an individual that said murder your neighbour but still I guess you knew that when you typed it :td:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

How many people have died in the name of Jesus and God?

Far fewer than what died at the hands of Manson.


And it wasn't a direct comparison as well you know. I was making a point. Having a large number of people believing everything you tell them does not actually make it all true.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I will go f'kin ape if a teacher tries to teach my kids ID! Religious education I tolerate because that is the main religion of the country we live in and a working knowledge of the bible is a useful thing......but ID isn't religion. It's a certain point of view that arises from religion. As such, imo it should possibly be relegated to an after school club for anyone interested in it.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Its ok in RE as long as its presented as what people think rather than truth

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Did he teach anything other than peace, I don't think he could have made the point clearer, the fact that people have used his name as a perverted excuse for war, is hardly his fault, they would have just found another excuse and what of the people that actually died in his name, do you really think that they were all brain washed? More likely they were men of real faith who knew that even if they recanted their faith, they would still most likely have been put to death anyway

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Which is how it is presented.RS isn't just about Christianity either...it's concerned with showing and explaining all religions and as such is about 'faith' rather than indoctrination.

Remember folks you do have the right to remove your son or daughter from RS if you choose to.I've only come across two cases where this happened in over 30 years.In one of these the child had removed herself from the lesson with the support of her family.Very enterprising of her as she gained two free periods.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Not very relevant but I found it funny and might lighten up this thread.......

http://www.jesusoftheweek.com/jesii/436/index.html

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Pretty sure that the original bibles weren't illustrated in colour. Therefore any illustrations they had would have probably been line drawings.

Illustrated bibles contain someone's interpretation of what the bible says. Therefore, they may have changed Adam and Eve to white. In fact, IIRC, the bible doesn't directly describe their appearance at all.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I'm sure Jesus was a top bloke full of good intentions, albeit a bit delusional.


I think we have strayed somewhat from our initial debate(religion being taught as fact in primary schools).

---------- Post added at 09:49 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

I have yet to see an illustrated bible(typically modern day children's bibles) where Adam and Eve are anything other than white.


If you type Adam and Eve into google images then this is what you get:

Adam and Eve


Overwhelmingly white I would say.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I liked R.E, I find religion very intresting. Especially the History of it which we were not taught much. I dont see why you are allowed to remove your children from it since its never about converting people.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

They maybe should remove RE from the curriculum full stop and teach common sense instead? thats one subject one hell of a lot of people (imo the majority) have none at all ;)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

That's what Atheism is, common sense.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well seeing as the Romans indoctrinated Christianity and became the largest christian church globally its hardly a surprise that artists renditions over the ages have shown them white is it.

---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

yeah well I know plenty of atheists who are numbskulls

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Right, you've made your point numerous times in this thread. Any real need for you to continue to post in it?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yet you said you believe they are close relatives of humans.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yes, your point being...?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Eggs originally symbolised Oestre, the Saxon goddess.
This was absorbed into the early church, along with many other non-christian celebrations simply to get more followers.

---------- Post added at 10:19 ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 ----------

Just wondering about the biological link.
I can see one through an evolutionary ancester, however with your theological proposition regarding humans not evolving, then how can that be?
It's like saying you didn't evolve, but your brother has. Do you see what I mean?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The thread has descended into just attack christianity which is wrong.

I have no problem with "creationism" i.e the story in the bible, being taught in RE studies. No problem at all.

I was taught it at an RC school, kids are smarter than you think and will question it, and usually dismiss it as soon as they have their first biology and physics lessons. If they decide, usually in adult later life, they want to immerse themselves in a particular faith then they can believe what they like.

I remember aged 7 being told that God had no beginning and no end, and I argued with the teacher that didn't make sense and that something has to start somewhere after five minutes I was told to be quiet as that was how it was so don't argue - there and then began my scepticism of religion.

What I DO object to is the teaching of ID because here they are trying to pass religion off as science and that is wholly wrong and will confuse kids.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Exactly, look at early paintings of Mary, she wore red because that was an expensive colour to create, then a more expensive blue came along and her clothes changed accordingly.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I can see what you're suggesting but I don't redard neanderthals to be close enough to humans to play by the same physical rules. I'd estimate they'd be as close as apes, who I'd be willing to believe may have evolved, but not humans. I don't see skin colour, physical features (ie oriental, negroid etc) or anything like that as being big enough differences to be considered a different species or anything along those lines. Again without wanting to sound PC, we're all still human.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

We had two RE teachers, one related the to Mr Elphick from Boon, a devout christian (although there were rumours he was once a hells angel, and more likely a spitfire pilot during the war) and an excellent teacher who saw RE as a way of educating people about the worlds religions without needing to say if they are right or wrong, and he and I would have long discussions while the rest of the kids were disruptive or busy watching the Ten Commandments.
The other RE teacher, who thankfully I never had, graded people down if they weren't christians, loved the idea of judgment day when non-christians will be slaughtered, and was basically a nasty piece of work dressed up as a follower of christianity. Oh and there was a substitute teacher we had once who again had a low view of non-christians.
So, it all depends on the teacher, a good teacher will be impartial and educational, a poor teacher will try to portray their own religious beliefs as the truth.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

But science does not answer that. Why do things have to be linear? because we are? we have a start and a beggining does not mean everything does.
Isnt this the biggest pardox there is? if the universe ends what comes next and next and next and next infinately. How could time have begun? what was there before? nothing? but nothing is something but then you have to ask then where did everything come from and so resumes the paradox

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Am I correct in thinking that only humans (i.e., not neanderthals, apes, dolphins, and invertrebrates etc.) have a soul and therefore could posibly go to heaven?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Then they can't be relatives.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Look everyone here has a point and a belief but can anyone answer me this question where did everything come from?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Pssst, see my sig ;)

That Thorax bloke, how did he know we'd have this conversation?

---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 ----------

We don't know yet.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The bible doesn't tell us that - it's up to the individual to decide. God does put us higher up the pecking order, as he gave us the world to control however I see a soul on similar level to life force so it wouldn't surprise me if animals and non-humans will be there. After all, strip away the outer shell and we're all the same, every living thing.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

exactly no one can say for sure no one so these arguements are always mute because no one knows the answer

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I've been waiting SO long to say this, but that Thorax character was a typical armchair expert if that's the sort of thing he'd come out with.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I agree with you that these are very fundamental questions to which science does not (to my knowledge) have any real answers. However, to resolve the paradox by saying: oh, there must be some bloke in charge who doesn't need a beginning is rather unsatisfactory imo. It doesn't really solve the paradox anyway. It just 'explains' it away.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

<pantomime>

Oh yes they can?

</pantomime>

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

and the opposite does what exactlly different?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Not untrue though is it?
When did you last see an animal doing crossword puzzles? :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Hold up its hands and says: as much as we'd like to know, we can only guess at this point. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is preferable.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Difference is, science is willing to admit the unknown, religion isn't, there is always the answer of "god"

---------- Post added at 10:40 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

So neandethals are decendants of Noah's family?

---------- Post added at 10:41 ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 ----------

It speaks the knowable truth of saying "we don't know" so is accurate
Religion speaks the belief of "god" which isn't knowably true, so is inaccurate.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

It wasn't the lack of a scientific answer that put me off, it was the need to have blind faith that something is as it is, and have to take that without questioning it.

The point being that children are very inquisitive, and usually clever enough to work out that the Creation bible story is so full of holes and far fetched that it cannot be taken as serious series events to the creation of the universe.

However, when you start to try and combine bible and science a la ID, you are purposely trying to confuse children into believing something, and that is why it is wrong.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

My points have never been different. Science can not proove to me God does not exist. Religion can not proove science is wrong either. No one can answer the questions that I need answered to change my mind. Religion could be right you never know you believe it isnt but you can not be sure.
I have openly admitted in this thread to subjects I do not know. I have a faith in God but I follow no orthadox religion


But sciencists will happily keep telling me im wrong though

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

IKEA :p: :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

That's pretty much my opinion. I prefer to take the rational approach, and not believe in God and all the other parafernalia that come with it.

However, given that Science and Religion are so distinct, do you agree then that creationism/ID should not be taught in Science classes?

---------- Post added at 10:49 ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 ----------

Where has this happened? Any self respecting scientist would come to the conclusion that, at best, there is no proof. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The bible says science is wrong, not "may be wrong" not "could be right" but wrong wrong wrong.
Science on the other hand says the bible may be right, god may exist, evolution may be wrong, improbable but still not discounted totally.
This is why most religious people in science alter their religious beliefs to fit with science rather than do what ID proponants do, which is alter the science to fit with their religous belief

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yes, it IS untrue. It's the classic case of taking one part of the bible out of context, adding a touch of ridicule and telling everyone it's right - typical armchair expert tactics.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

That'd explain why I've still got bits left over...

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So the universe was created in the dark, and after he'd created the universe he then thought, "Let's turn the light on and have a look at what I've done".

It was a bit a bit cocky of him wasn't it, what if he'd made a complete dogs breakfast of it. Mind you I suppose he is god, after all.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Really? Don't see any reference to the bible, did you?
Are you certain there are no religious people who believe that humans alone have a soul which is why they can enter heaven?
Ever seen animals lie, libel, slander, devise pogroms, murder for recreation and peform crossword puzzles?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

You're right of course. But where do you think he gets his information from?

He says 'Religious people'. He'd be more accurate if he'd said "some" before that. But still, why let something as insignificant as the facts get in the way of a good....here it comes.....*agenda* :D

His 'meditation' relates to an idea shared by a minority.

Plus it takes more than just 'being a human' to be entitled to gain admittance to heaven. But you knew that anyway.

---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

Yes, and of course isn't subject to the same physical restraints as us, who obviously need light.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

In the UK maybe, but he came to this universe and plonked himself down in the US, and you know the majority over there believe the devil has red horns, a cape, pitchfork and pointy tail...

No, but I knew that it is believed by some, like yourself, and it is believed by others that just being good is enough, the list of entrances into heaven that I know people believe goes on and on.

Now, Noah's neandethal kids, how did they come about?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The Bible doesn't say science as a discipline is wrong - it is however at odds with some of the things this generation of scientists have concluded about the universe.

As for the Meditations of Thorax - he's right, the human soul is corrupt. He is wrong to suggest that this corrupt soul is the basis for entrance to heaven. The cleansing of the soul by the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the Cross is the basis for entrance to heaven.

After all our discussions, I thought you knew that. ;)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

OK well in the interests of fairness, could you add to your sig that it's a view shared mostly by those across the pond? Perhaps by placing the word 'American' at the start?

So we're agreed that just by 'being human' is not the sole requirement?

Unfortunately I don't have a dateline of the flood so I'd have a bit of trouble working that one out. But I'm sure they would have been before Noah.

---------- Post added at 11:08 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------

Yes but never let something as insignificant as the facts...etc etc :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

It all seems a little contrived for an omnipotent being. Didn't he have anything better to do, or is this his idea of a laugh?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

He doesn't actually say that you must lie, libel, slander etc in order to enter heaven though.

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 ----------

You'd have to talk to Thorax about that.


Not at all.

Ok, Adam's neandethal decendants, how'd that happen then in your belief system of humans not evolving but animals evolving?