Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Lots of "This comment is awaiting moderation" comments...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I gave that info several pages back ;)


Watchdog just back up everything I've said in this thread. The evidence IS flawed, and they are just trying it on :D They have to prove it was the person named that copied and uploaded the file, not just their IP. And also prove it is/was on their computer. Without that, they have no case against you.

Hate to say it, but I told ya so :p: ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Right quick thing to say.....anyone who has recieved a letter from Davenport lyons would be happy to know that Atari have dropped the case with 'Test drive unlimited'
also many of you are wrong lol davenport lyons have always worked with digistep or whatever they are told.
thankyou for all of you who kept in touch, i will send personal emails to each of you who contacted me.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

WE KNOW!!!! Read the thread!! :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

well im glad u all know already. but im not gonna read 21 pages of arguing and BS..... i did post on this thread at like page 4 - 7 cant quite remember which page.
so ignore my post.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Indeed.

Re. the IP "evidence", do you (or anyone else) know if they actually connect to the defendant's IP as a peer to sample what they were allegedly seeding? Or do they simply rely on the IPs the tracker reports are in the swarm... which is hardly proof, seeing as it's a known fact that certain well known trackers deliberately insert innocent IPs into the swarm report?


Their evidence can't be too great, seeing as they have already dropped cases against people who protested their innocence, such as IIRC an old couple who were accused of sharing an Atari game? (the bad press from which is I assume what then caused Atari to drop DL).

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Saw this

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12...ons_complaint/

on The Register today.

Looks like they are going to be investigated by their Professional Body

Simon

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Go "Which?"! :D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Lets hope it comes to something though.

Simon

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

And here's a direct link to the which? article.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Davenport Lyons will probably deny everything and hope that Which's lawyers take no further action.

:LOL:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I hope for everybody else's sake that Which's lawyers don't take no further action and pursue them to the maximum extent of the law.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

An update on my case against DL:

They have written to the court and asked to have another hearing because they claim they didn't have time to prepare their evidence and defence enough. They seem to be saying that because they lost they therefore must not have had enough time.

I'm not sure what the court will do. If there is another hearing I'm sure I will prevail, and they will just end up owing me even more money to cover time off work, registered post etc.

I am still trying to get reliable information on the ISP Davenport Lyons uses. If I can find an IP address I can tie to them, I can send them a copyright infringement notice and demand payment from them. At that point I will probably have to look for some pro-bono legal representation. Ideally it would go to court, because then DL would be in the position of having to prove that an IP address and a screenshot is not enough evidence to prove copyright infringement, which would be ironic to say the least ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Well they had as much time as you did mate, if they cant be arsed to get to the court on time that just shows their contempt of the small claims court, good luck if they do get another chance but I can't see any judge letting them get back in.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

What a bunch of jokers :rolleyes:

Hmm. Do you think they'd like that "defence" if it was the other way round, & someone that they had won a default judgement against had a whinge to the Court that they "didn't have enough time". Doubt it...


They would have had the standard amount of time, & would have had plenty of notice as to when they had to respond by, & when the actual County Court hearing would have been.


I hope the Judge sees through them :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I have found a valid DL IP address :)

I send them a HTML email with a image in it hosted on a little web server I set up on one of my PCs using DynDNS.org. When they opened the email, their email program downloaded the image and I recorded their IP address!

It seems their security is pretty lax. If I had time I'd go to London just to check that all their wifi APs are using proper security.

Anyway, I'm not sure what I should do now. I could just copy their letter and replace my details with theirs... But that might be copyright infringement of their letter. Also, if they refuse to pay I'd be forced to call them on it and take them to court, which I'd love to do as it would either force them to loose (massive PR win) or force them to defeat their own evidence (epic legal win), but I don't have the money to do it myself.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Give em something to chuckle over their Christmas dinner, send the letter. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I know you're hurting over this, but your plan, in my opinion, is one of simply getting revenge. That may be reason enough, but lets look at the issue a tad more closely.

The court order they seek against the various ISP's is from evidence gathered by a third party, which is then supplied to Davenport. If your going to copy their letter they are going to know almost straight away its a fix as they would hardly seek a court order on their own IP range now would they? They could laugh at it, or they could just hang you out to dry.

If you are going to go down a different route, and claim some fictitious copyright abuse claim,you had better have the stones and the cash for a fight.

On the other hand you could do this.

Get your original case challenged the proper way, and stop trying to pee about with these people.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Much as I would love to do this, it is unfortunately impossible.

DL drop the case as soon as you respond. They only ever take it to court if you don't respond so that they can get a default judgement.

So, simply ignore them until you see them in court, right? Well, I don't know how that would look in legal terms, because you are supposed to at least converse with the court if not DL themselves. All correspondence with the court needs to be copied to DL.

Basically, it seems to be virtually impossible to make someone sue you for copyright infringement when they don't really want to. If that sounds like a rather obvious statement then forgive me, but you seem to have missed it.

That's why the best option would be for someone with plenty of money and lawyers to bring a test case against DL. It wouldn't prevent them from harvesting BitTorrent trackers for people to threaten but it would at least establish reasonable level of proof to be required.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Litigation is a way for lawyers to make money. It isn't there for the small individual person.

My experience of court procedures for financial claims, is it goes round and round in circles, and "in the interest of justice" parties seem to always be able to appeal and muddy the waters by claiming silly things like (reading between the lines) ineptitude.

Big organisations like Davenport Lyons, will give up without a fight over those who haven't yet cost them anything, but look like putting up a fight. But it will be David versus Goliath, if you wake them up by taking them on. Unless you really do have the ability to finance this, and risk everything you own to do so, find you may wish to find a way out now.

Litigation is sadly is not for the likes of the ordinary person and there is no such thing as affordable justice.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

So very true and such a damning indictment of the broken society we are living in. :(

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

it's been almost a month and I haven't heard from DL yet. honestly? I probably will not. I assume my letter was brief and good enough to show them that I'm not one of those easy-payers.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

The law grinds very slowly but it does grind....a month is nothing in the world of solicitors and courts..;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

true but I'm hoping they dropped it :] they might send me something in a year from now I am aware but for now I feel safe..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I posted a thread,"Debt collectors help" or something like that,and got loads of advice.
Anyway that was last month and have heard nothing since.
I have a friend in the industry who told me to send them a polite letter,pointing a few things out,This letter,for such a piffling amount should put them off,as they will think you know the score!If it's any help to anyone,send this.Obviously customised to your own requirments.

I have received your letter requesting payment to the sum of ~~~~ regarding your client ~~~~.
I wish to inform you that I dispute the debt and request that you furnish me with all the relevant details.
As you will be fully aware,under the office of fair trading debt collection guidance,all disputed debts must be fully investigated.
By law,all disputed debts, and collection activity, must cease whilst your full investigation takes place.
I look forward to the results of your thorough investigation.
Any further communications from yourselves prior to a full investigation will be treated as harassment and will be reported to the FSA.

Yours blah blah blah.
Don't sign it just print your name.


I'm assured by my friend that this will be enough to seriously put them off!!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Which is only relevant to a debt....

DL can't incur a legal debt against someone without a contract in the first place.... What they're asking for is a good faith payment in respect to what they're calling illegal copyright infringement with a threat of court action... Only if the courts decide that monies are owing does it become a debt...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Are DL not trying to get people to cough up money? It's the same thing,asking for payment without any evidence of a supposed purchase/loan/download.
They are still required BY LAW to carry out a full and proper investigation into anything,even illegal downloading,before issuing threats.They have to prove it before any action can be taken.My above post applies just the same to them as a debt collector.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It's still not a debt, they're not demanding the money but asking for it in lieu of court proceedings being initiated... So their way of asking for money is not covered by debt laws/procedures...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Don't ever pay them a single penny. If anything, invoice them for your time.

Just send them a polite letter saying they made a mistake. Something like this:

Dear Sir or Madam,

In response to your letter dated xx/xx/xx, I have checked my computer and the file in question is not stored on any of them. Furthermore I do not use the software you claim to have seen uploading the file in question, and it is not installed on my PC. As it happens I am not gay either, and so would have no reason to upload or download gay pornography.

As you may know, an IP address does not identify an individual, or a single PC, or even an internet connection. It is trivially easy to frame any IP address for uploading/downloading any file. Should you wish to take proceedings to court, I am certain that your evidence would not meet the required standards, and you would be faced with paying legal costs for my defence.

Any further correspondence on this or any other matter related to files allegedly shared on the internet which does not directly relate to a pending legal case in a court of law will be invoiced at the rate of £100/hour (minimum 1 hour) to yourselves.

Yours,
(name)

Be sure to edit it to be appropriate to your situation. I wouldn't bother going into too much detail about how stupid their "investigation" or "evidence" is. You might as well shout at a brick wall for all good it will do. The main thing is just to be firm, be clear that you are not ever going to pay them anything and that you are not overly concerned by their threats.

I'd also forward a copy of their letter to the Legal Complaints Service (http://www.legalcomplaints.org.uk/), along with a note explaining that you don't take baseless legal threats kindly, especially when they have no intention at all to take matters further.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hi Guys,

I just received a letter from Davenport asking me to pay over £600. To be honest I don't remember if I ever downloaded a game called pinball, and if so, i've never used it. (It's not in my pc)
Is it illegal here in Uk to download games with out sharing them?
If so, is it possible to waive this "fine"?
is there any link from where I can get more info?
The name Orange provided them (the same they used in the letter) is wrong, my surname is not right (i.e. Duncas instead of Duncan). Based on this, can I just forget about the letter as per british law?

Cheers

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You may as well use the letter as toilet paper. Ignore it, davenport will leave you alone.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Don't worry, the onus is on them to prove that you downloaded it, not for you to prove you didn't. They don't have any real evidence, they are just hoping you pay up out of fear.

No. It is often (but not always) copyright infringement, however that is a civil offence. What that means is that it isn't a crime as such, the police do not persecute people for it. However, the owners of the copyright (the game's publishers) may try to sue you for it, which is what Davenport Lyons are threatening to do. Even if you loose, you don't get a criminal record or anything like that.

Besides which, there is absolutely no chance of you loosing.

Firstly, it's not a "fine", because Davenport Lyons have no mandate to issue one. They are simply trying to extort money out of you by threatening to take legal action.

What you need to do is write back to them with a short, direct letter. Simply state that you are not the person they claim is at fault (since you are not Mr. Duncas) and that as far as you are aware you did not download the file in question. Ask them for copies of their evidence, such as it is, and state that you have no intention of paying.

Here is a sample letter, feel free to use it:

Dear Sir or Madam,

In regards to your letter dated dd/mm/yy, you appear to be mistaken. There is no-one by the name of "Duncas" at this address. In case you meant "Duncan", I should like to inform you that as far as I am aware I did not download the file in question.

As I'm sure you are aware an IP address alone is not sufficient to identify an individual. Please forward copies of any credible and individually identifying evidence you may have if you wish to pursue the matter further.

I have no intention of paying you anything.

Yours,
<name>

After that you will not hear from them again.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I'd just go with:

Why give them any other help!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Prosecute surely!! - we are not quite in a police state yet :D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I received a letter from them yesterday wanting £612.94 for downloading "two worlds" in july 2008.

It was not me who downloaded the game it was my 13 year old son....i don't ever even play games.

I was advised by my brother to email and tell them this,which sadly i did.

After reading all the posts on here i guess i should have just denied it as they could have been wrong.....so i will have to pay up:mad::mad:

Al

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

But you are not sharing it are you? I think that's what they are keying on...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I am doing some research for a friend and came across this forum. One of my friends was taken to court a 3 weeks ago and lost. He hired a lawyer who were quite confident they were going to win and tried to get Davenport Lyons to drop the case by making offers outside of court. The offers were like you pay everything to date and drop the case and our client will be happy, but Davenport Lyons rejected all of this. At the hearing the judge ruled against my friend and his expected costs are expected to be in the region of £8000. Now the solicitors say they can't do anything about it and say they can not help.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Have you got any links to this Tapps? local rag? must of been a top local story, well it would be in my part of the country lol, beats stabbings and robbery.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Sorry, this has all the hallmarks of a "plant" to try and frighten more people into paying by convincing them they cannot win.

A case like this would have been reported quite widely in the media and on the web.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

That's first thing I thought when I just read that!

Fake! Plant! We've been invaded by DL!!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Why do you think I'm a plant? Just because it is my first post?

This is going to financially ruin a very good friend of mine. It isn't in the media yet because although the judge has ruled against him, there will be a damages hearing shortly. Does anyone want to offer any actual help?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

At this point your friend's best hope is their legal council, if they say they can't/won't help then he needs to get better council.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Well, that's what it seems like. But it could be true - it could be that the damages judgement was only a couple of hundred pounds so wasn't picked up by the media; the £8k will include both his and DL's costs, which could well be £7k or £8k together in a contested case.

Course Tapps can clear any confusion up by just letting us know the court Case Number, a scan of the order, details of the solicitor/firm.

Since part of this thread covers the difference between criminal and civil law, I'd say that on the balance of probabilities Tapps is a plant, but it's not proven beyond reasonable doubt ;)

---------- Post added at 21:26 ---------- Previous post was at 21:21 ----------

To give Tapps the benefit of the doubt; don't assume that a 'better' lawyer is someone that says 'yes, this is what we can do'. Part of a lawyers job is to tell people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. Appealing might just be throwing good money after bad.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You friends lawyers must be rubbish if they can't convince the court that you can't ID somebody from an IP address!

That IP is not totaly unique to you if you go through a proxy server; it can be spoffed or whatever.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thanks all of you guys for your help.
One more question, has anyone of you sent the letter to DL? What did happen after that?

Cheers,

L10:)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

On what grounds did the judge rule against this friend of yours?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Can't find anything, Is there a public directory of judgements? Be interesting to see how they ruled.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

He had written to Davenport Lyons a few times but had to leave the country due to an emergency for a short while. Davenport Lyons issued proceedings and got a default judgement. My friend then applied with his solicitors to have the default judgement set aside saying that he had a reasonable prospect of winning and gave his reasons why but was unsuccessful.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Riiight, now that's a little different from what you said in the first place.

So what actually happened was (for whatever reason) he didn't attend court and the judge ruled in favour if DL?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Basically yes, because he had changed address so didn't know about the court date. He had been in correspondence with them throughout. The hearing was to decide if he would have a chance of success at trial but the judge ruled against him. He has been told he could not appeal the decision.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

OK so the messsage is still for anyone who gets such a letter to challenge DL to produce their evidence as it's clear should it get to court and both parties attend, DL will lose miserably.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

For anyone new to the thread, these may be interesting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/...tening_le.html

http://torrentfreak.com/the-pirate-b...-peers-081020/

http://torrentfreak.com/anti-piracy-...o-porn-081118/ [WARNING: contains some bad language within the story due to the names of the files]


Michael Coyle at Lawdit Soliciters has been representing some of DL's vict...defendants. For free. Lots of info here:

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...fringement.htm

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...on-the-act.htm

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...le-sharing.htm

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...of-the-end.htm

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Guys, after reading this I'm a bit worried. I'll be leaving UK, maybe forever, in a couple of months, so I might be in the same situation than Tapps' friend.
I don't wanna have any hadeache in the future, so it seems my only option is to pay. Apart from the money they are asking for, which I think is a scam whether guilty or not, they also asks me to sign a form confessing something I didn't do it. What do you recommend???

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I wouldn't pay. You did not infringe their copyright, for 13 year old son did. If they want to take legal action against him, that's up to them, but somehow I doubt his paper round will cover their costs. Not to mention the brilliant PR it would generate.

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:22 ----------

He lost because he admitted he downloaded whatever it was. By offering to settle out of court, he admitted it.

The important thing to remember is that Davenport Lyons have absolutely no evidence what so ever that you infringed any copyrights.

They have an IP address and a screenshot. That does not identify you. It up to them to prove that it was you personally uploading the file to them. They cannot do this, there is simply no way, technical or otherwise.

Just tell them firmly that you did not do it and that will be the end of that. I have had three of these letters now, one via Zen many years ago for Borland and two from Davenport Lyons. I managed to take DL to Small Claims Court and win over the last one, but they have not paid up yet.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Does anyone have any actual advice for my friend?

The judge would not set aside the default judgement and now he's being stung for 8k+. Lawdit is not free by the way and they were the guys my friend used.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It sounds like there must be something you are not telling us. If your friend was out of the country then he has clear grounds for an appeal.

If the judge ruled that there was no reasonable chance of him winning a court case, then either the judge is at fault for not understanding the evidence or your friend's lawyers didn't do a very good job.

The only other thing I can think of is that he somehow admitted he did upload the file. In that case he is stuffed.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Think we need a case ref, or at least a court and date in order to substantiate this. All sounds rather odd to me:confused:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

hmm last time DL won a case ( person didn't turn up to defend themselves ) DL had the judgement on the news channels with in the hour and letters going out to others to show that they could win

i can find nothing about a new win , only stories about ATARI droping them and about thier new tactic of claiming you have downloaded some hard core gay porn film in the hope seemingly that people wont want to go to court about that !

see

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11...venport_lyons/

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Have a read of these...

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...le-sharing.htm

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...fringement.htm

The Lawdit site clearly still says that they will give free advice over the phone. It also says they will also write a letter of response on your behalf for £50+VAT & deal with further correspondence for you.

Michael Coyle also still says on the Lawdit site "My advice if you have received a letter is to fight it. I will defend your case for free.".

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

In addition, Mr Coyle @ Lawdit has been contacted by fellow member MEMOR @ the Slyck.com forum, in regards to Tapps' postings.

Initial response was:-

" As for the recent case you refer to I cannot respond due to client confidentiality. However I would say that as a rule of thumb you must not ignore the letters. If court proceedings are issued and there is a significant delay it can be difficult to deal with the claim and overturn what has gone on in the past. "

as per:- http://www.slyck.com/forums/viewtopi...t=2475#p504827

Then later:-

" I should also add this, Please post if you so wish.
“We have not lost a filesharing case as I am not aware of any case that has been ‘won’ by the Claimants’ Solicitors. This means that a case with legal argument from both sides has not been heard in the courts. The cases where the Claimants have ‘won’ concern people ignoring the letters of claim. The courts award Judgment and the Claimant wins. - To overturn this ‘victory’ you have to show:

a) that you have a defence, ie you did not do it, and
b) there has not been too long of a delay.

You will also have to pay the costs of the Claimants’ obtaining Judgement which will be a few hundred pounds- unless you can show it was sent to the wrong address and you did not know about the Judgment at any stage. The longer you leave the Judgment the more difficult it is to overturn the court’s decision. So ignore at your peril ! "

as per:- http://www.slyck.com/forums/viewtopi...t=2475#p504861

Hmmm - The plot thickens ;)

M2PW

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Basically, as long as you write them a letter saying you didn't do it, you can't loose.

So far, in 100% of cases where people wrote back, they have dropped the matter.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Very interesting ;)


And :welcome: btw :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

YW & Thanks :-)

If you find Tapps' postings a little dubious, then try "Norman Wells" at uk.legal
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.le...tchdog+Report#

and/or Metoo @ Slyck.com
http://www.slyck.com/forums/search.p...keywords=metoo

Pre-warning - On topic - Long reads, but "interesting" if you've got a "minute or two" to while away :)

Regs

M2PW

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

But my friend also wrote back and had telephone conversations but they still sued him.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No. They didn't.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Your full of it mate, not being in the country is a valid reason to have the case heard again, as is DL not sending the proceedings document through recorded delivery

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Not true, and not true.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I thought these sorts of Court proceedings could only be issued in person to the one being sued?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If you are on holiday or away for some other reason so you cannot know you received the letter, that is a good enough reason.

Although not exactly the same as a normal court, I didn't receive a letter from the court telling me a hearing date for a Small Claims Court procedure I was taking against Royal Mail. I told them and they simply rescheduled it.

PS. As expected, DL tried to arrange a re-hearing during the time I was away. The court has now moved the hearing to June.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Or alternatively

4. Did you receive the summons? They are not sent by recorded mail.

5. Maybe you were unable to attend court and defend yourself

11. It could have been that you were away from the time between the issue of the summons and entry of the judgement?

http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/...id-reasons.php

And that is why they should send the details by recorded delivery, to make sure you recieve them and the link says set aside, which isn't guaranteed by any means, an actual hearing with you present is certain though.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hi all

I've just read this thread from front to back and theres some good sound advice in here (amongst the heated debates :D)

I've received a letter from them stating they want £604 damages for my sharing the game "Pinball" for the wii. I haven't and I've told them so via an email.

I also stated that I was unaware that this game was being downloaded via my IP address. I did have suspicions of who it may have been, and mentioned I will try and find out for them.

I received a new letter saying that they will grant me more time until such time as I can run my own 'investigation'. That's when I discovered this thread. I replied with:

Dear Sir/Madam

I cannot prove without doubt who was responsible for this download for the fear of getting it wrong, or even if it really did happen. For all I know it could have been via my wireless.

I do however have a solicitor helping me and he has asked me to request some information from yourselves:

1, I need a full break down of the damages you are claiming.

2, Why is this case £604 when other case examples are around the £300 mark?

3, How long was this file being shared by my IP address?

4, He needs the log from you're program showing my ip address and exactly what I was uploading and for how long. (This will also help me find who was using my pc because I'm never away from the pc for very long)

I look forward to your speedy reply

Kinds Regards

The question is, have I said too much already?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You are screwed then as you've basically admitted it.

Regardless if it was done via Wi-Fi if you're the bill payer of the ADSL connection, it up to you to make sure your equipment is secure.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

This arguements been done before in this thread...

The bill payer does NOT have to make sure that thier connection is secure.. Whoever uses a connection without permission is the one commiting the crime...

Even if the T&C's specify that the account holder is responisble for the line security that doesn't make them responsible to a third party..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thats the thing though, who I thought may have done it, couldn't have possibly done so.

According to what the people have dug up and posted on this thread, there is no legal requirement to secure my wireless. I live in a terraced house, and all the houses are kinda concentrated around me :confused:

I also don't own a wii! lol

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Fair comment - but it could be argued if it got to court...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Not really...that's a bit like saying that a car owner should go to jail instead of the thief who stole the car after the keys were accidently left inside of it...

It seems the best initial defence isn't to say someone else did it, but to instead deny downloading the material... The fact that you have unsecured wireless and even the fact that you don't have a Wii is probably best kept for later once you've wasted enough of their own precious time ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

So my advice for now is to just wait for their next response? And see what happens?

They aren't the quickest at replying, this 2nd letter took about 3-4 weeks to arrive.

Thanks for the replies guys, it's quite worrying when you're living off disability money and faced with a £600 bill :erm:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I think the more appropriate analogy is the fine issued to the registered owner of a car after it has been caught speeding by a camera. "It wasn't me, guv" is not an excuse, unless you had previously reported that your car has been stolen.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

But that's a permission based argument.. Unless the car gets taken out of the persons control (i.e..without permission to use it)...where as if it's stolen then there's a perfect defence for the speeding ticket..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Well, the point is that the fine is sent to the registered keeper, not the user at that particular point in time.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Lets play spot the difference:

1. But in each case if an offence is caused by the owner or a driver with permission the owner will get the letter and it will be then referred to the driver with permission where as if someone steals the car the owner has a defence.
   
2. But in each case if an offence is caused by the account holder or a downloader with permission the account holder will get the letter and it will be then referred to the downloader with permission where as if someone steals the wifi the account holder has a defence.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Let's see...

In the first case, the fine is sent to the registered keeper, who is expected to pay (unless he has reported a theft, which is unusual).

In the second case, the solicitor's letter is sent to the registered keeper (of the IP address), who is expected to pay (unless he has reported a theft, which is very unusual).

I think the analogy is pretty good!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

But both letter are sent to the registered keeper/acc_holder and both are expected to pay...unless they can prove that either the car/IP was in someone elses possesion OR the car/connection was stolen..

The one good thing about the DL case is that because it's a civil issue it means that you're not laible by default and don't have to prove that your connection was stolen instead a statement saying that you NEVER downloaded said item and that your connection is unsecured so if it even was downlaoded on that IP (that's if the IP wasn't spoofed) then it could have been anyone..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Can I remind everyone that these letters threaten civil proceedings, not criminal proceedings. It's balance of probabilities stuff. Saying 'yes it was my connection but not me' is probably going to tip you over the balance ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

As The X Files once said... "Deny everything".

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I thought it was "The truth is out there"? ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

The solution is simple: just state that it was not you, and you are not going to pay. They will always drop their claims.

They know they have no leg to stand on.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

That simple statement is the best advice in this over inflated thread :tu:

DL will ONLY take you to court if you either admit to the offence and dont pay...or as a lot of people stupidly do just simple non-communication and non-appearance at court..they then win by default..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thanks guys, I know a lot of people giving the advice had nothing to do with it, as in never received a letter.;)

This thread has been the best advice for Davenpr0n Lyons cases. And to be honest, a damn good read.

It's had it's up's and downs lol, I got excited many times when peeps dug up some guideline or something, only for that to be shattered 4 pages on.

But I'll let you know should anything else arise. Thanks again.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hello guys I recieved a letter from DL regarding 3D pinball for the nintendo ds, which I have never heard of until the letter. I wrote to them saying I have never heard of this game and never downloaded it and that I have a wireless router, they are demanding 602 pounds. They have now sent me a follow up letter.

sorry for the long read:

[ As far as fake ip addresses are concerned, whilst such faking is possible, our client has received advice from experts, which has confirmed that it is not possible to enter into a successful transaction on a p2p network whilst using a fake IP address. Our client's experts will also not gather torrents containing fake IP addresses as a result of the technical methods they employ.

we do not claim that you pc was used to commit the infringing act(although we do not exclude this possibility) nor do we claim that you downloaded our clients work. Our claim is that your internet connection was used to make our clients work available via one or more p2p networks. We have already supplied you with sufficient evidence ( just the ip address, time and date of download) to establish this claim in our original letter of claim. We also believe this evidence is sufficiently clear.

in the circumstances, unless you are able to provide a satisfactory explanation as to why you are not liable for the acts alleged against you and/or we recieve wrtitten undertaking and payment of 602 pounds with the next 14 days, we shall have no alternative but to take you to court basically.]

this is outrageous i told them they can check my pc if they wished i dont know what else to say.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You've entered into a dialogue with them, so now get legal advice. This thread contains information on who may be able to help, I'm sorry but I don't have time to find the relative posts.

I'll say this though, the problem won't go away.....you either pay up, or get help, most would suggest the latter.

If you don't act now, a £600 settlement could turn into thousands.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

they say that they do not claim my pc was used, or claim I dl the file so why are they trying to sue me? they are claiming it was my internet connection.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Exactly why you should seek advice, that very idea is currently being challenged on what would appear to be a very good defence, scan this thread sir/madam.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

thanks I have read through all the 26 pages and other threads and thats what helped me write the 1st letter, just forgot some of the details,

thanks for the advice and I m a man by the way.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No, no, no! Do not send them a penny, and do not waste money on solicitors!

If they persist, just tell them firmly that you are not going to pay and that you are innocent. It is up them to prove you downloaded the files, not for you to prove your innocence.

Davenport Lyons are trying to scare people into paying up, simply by sending official looking letters from a legal firm. In reality, they have no basis for their demands and there is no legal reason you should pay them. Think about it for a moment - anyone can send a letter demanding money for some alleged download. It's quite another thing to actually take legal action and argue the case in court.

So far, not one single person who told them they were not responsible for the download has been taken to court. They know they cannot win, they simply rely on fear making you pay up. It's a giant scam, and is currently being investigated by the legal services watchdog. For that matter, it was on the BBC Watchdog program too.

NEVER NEVER NEVER pay. NEVER NEVER NEVER argue with them. Just tell them you did not download the file, you are not responsible for any of the alleged downloading, and you are not going to pay. Stick to that and they will give up and go away.

It does not matter. They have no proof it was your internet connection. They will say they do, but all they really have is an IP address, which does not identify your internet connection. Even if they could identify it, you are not responsible for the actions of others, even using services you pay for. If someone uses your mobile phone to make abusive calls, or steals your car and crashes it, you are still not responsible, the person who did those things is.

---------- Post added at 23:27 ---------- Previous post was at 23:18 ----------

Can you please scan this part of the letter? DL just admitted that they have no case!

You don't have to provide any kind of explanation. It is up to them to prove you downloaded the file. You are innocent until they provide evidence to prove otherwise, and as they just admitted they don't know it was you.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I will agree with the sentiment of Cookie1984 to not hand over any money, but if Davenport Lyons do take the court action route, and you are prepared to defend yourself in court, then you won't need a solicitor, but keep the following mind also if you think they won't pursue you.

Davenport Lyons secured a default judgement against a woman for a similar claim, in a court that specifically deals with copyright infringements, and they got a default judgement because the defendant didn't turn up, nor had any legal representation on her behalf. That judgement was to the tune of £16,000........16 big ones, that's a down payment on a mortgage, if you can get one these days.

It may well be possible to get a solicitor who will represent you on a pro bono basis, one such solicitor has offered this service for UK defendants, articles can be found in this thread. I'm not sure how that is progressing, but here's some reading:

Not so high awards to four file sharers.

Here's the big one, YIKES.

Now, as Cookie says, these may be defendants that simply ignored the threats, but I am hard pressed to find anything on the net that confirms this.

What we can see though is that DL mean business, and if they think the defendant can't afford a reasonable defence lawyer, or simply ignores the letters, then they know they could potentially secure a significant payout, by default.

I'd say it takes a serious set of stones to stand up to this kind of thing, but until somebody actually does, this is going to continue.

By all means fight the good fight if you are completely confident in your defence, and damned good luck to all of you who have to do this.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

thanks to both cook and toto, you advice was very helpful. I have spoken to my friend who knows a thing or to about law and he has advised me on a follow up letter.

hope this nonsense is put to bed.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You're very welcome, I know you have the sympathy of others in a similar position - I wish you well.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re-post from earlier:

For anyone new to the thread, these may be interesting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/...tening_le.html

http://torrentfreak.com/the-pirate-b...-peers-081020/

http://torrentfreak.com/anti-piracy-...o-porn-081118/ [WARNING: contains some bad language within the story due to the names of the files]


Michael Coyle at Lawdit Soliciters has been representing some of DL's vict...defendants. For free. Lots of info here:

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...fringement.htm

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...on-the-act.htm

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...le-sharing.htm

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...of-the-end.htm

---------- Post added at 23:13 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------


AFAIK the one where the woman was stung for £16k was definitely a default judgement due to her not showing up.

As for the other story you linked to:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...m_pinball_win/


--------------


This is interesting, & fits with what others have said earlier:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/25/p2p_bullies/

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thanks Matt, I was skim reading the articles I linked to,and your quotes helped sort that out.