Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

But how can you question something you've never read/heard?

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Really, and what words would that be then .... :erm:

You never said he was guilty either. Then again, I never you had (either way .....)

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

thats true.


i have read what he has supposed to have done, but i have not sat in a court room to hear the evidence, i dont trust the meddling of the judicial system in iraq by an american backed legacy, once shy twice bitten ?

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

the thread is still open - does this mean he's still dead? good.

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So what happened? how did all these innocent civilians end up being tossed onto the back of a pick up truck? or their remains shovelled into a bin liner?
Did the troops decide " lets do it " ?
I dont think so!
Bush/blair have blood on their hands, for all I agree with the hanging of sadam, for all the good it is supposed to do :erm: I feel a lot of hypocrisy going on.

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How is it possible that somebody snicked in a mobile and recorded Saddam's hanging? (the video was broadcast by algazeera, recorded by fox and by now everywhere on the web)

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How do people sneek in cameras into a cinema?
Where there is demand for this kind of footage......... :erm:

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One would expect high security for such an event or it was deliberate...

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He was prob some official in charge. Least seeing him drop proves it actually happened and isnt propoganda.Just watched him drop and its not very graphic thankfully ;) (morbid curiosity got the better of me)

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If you say that he is guilty then what is there to question? :shrug:

---------- Post added at 11:26 ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 ----------

link

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I will rephrase my question - do you believe that Bush/Blair, or any of the Coalition commanders, have directly ordered the killing of innocent civilians?

Or is it more likely that there have been civilians killed in cross-fire, by accident, by other Iraqis, and sometimes (imho, rarely) on purpose by troops who have been under unrelenting pressure and "lost it"? None of which lessens the death and suffering of the Iraqi civilians who have been killed or injured, but I find it hard to countenance that British troops would willingly breach the Geneva Convention.

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British soldiers I'd agree with you, however I don't have the same faith in some of our allies

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War is War, We have a duty to protect others not so fortunate as ourselves. Did we start Murdering innocents? I don`t think so.
We were not the one`s with the suicide bombers killing innocent women. men and children. Would you not protect your family or stand up for a friend being bullied at school? This is no different apart from the firepower being used to counteract the firepower being used.:erm:

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*waits for reply that ignores most of what you've posted and says something like "Oh so we protect others by blowing them up do we?" from someone who probably marched to keep saddam in power*

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No need to " rephrase " your question THANKYOU!

The commanders HAVE ordered bombings of areas populated by innocent civilians, correct?

The fact is that bush and blair have blood on their hands.

The government backed the bombings in Baghdad, that killed and injured countless innocent humans, this is the same government that opposes executions on humanitarian grounds, ( but maybe its ok if youre in miami )

You cannot have both things, in other words you cannot bomb and kill innocent people yet oppose executions on humanitarian grounds, please look up the word hypocrisy.

---------- Post added at 09:28 ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 ----------


Please read above.....

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So did Churchil, should he have been charged too?

I know some people on this forum cannot see the difference between taking out a target which is also likely to harm civilians, and deliberately tagetting civilians, are you one of those?

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:tu: :tu:

One issue with that good post, we are paying through our taxes while the NHS is being run into the stoneages.

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No we didn't, but as I said I don't have the same respect or faith in some of our allies soldiers as I do in our own, I seem to remember something about Iraqi women and children being massacared not so long ago, of course the perpetartors of that atrocity won't be subject to the Iraqi law they are supposed to be upholding

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Are you talking about the soldiers who are being court marshalled at the moment (or recently, I forget which)?

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Yes the one's that are above Iraqi law

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Iraqi law that agreed coalition forces should be held accountable under their own nations legal systems?
Sounds like that's within Iraqi law to me ;)

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Hypocrisy again.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
If you target a place where civilians are, you cannot wipe the blood off your hands.
And you cannot oppose executions on humanitarian grounds yet order mass bombings that kill and wound thousands.
Who is talking about charging?
For my thoughts on the matter just read the post, you may not agree with it, thats fair enough in what is left of this supposed democratic country, that went to war on a pretence.

---------- Post added at 09:43 ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 ----------


The point is, is it right to oppose executions on humanitarian grounds yet support bombings that will kill or wound thousands?
At the end of the day the troops are only acting out orders, I have no issue with them, in the ideal world they would pack their bags and come home, thats not going to happen, that is where the government have a responsibility, the british people were lied to.

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Who said anything about wiping blood off their hands?
Do you not see a major difference between launching an attack on insurgents which might harm and kill civilians around them yet protect even more in the future, and storming Shiite towns, kidnapping all the males (some aged under 10) before shooting them in the backs of the head and dumping their bodies in mass graves simply because of their ethnic group?

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Order 17 is not part of nor "within Iraqi law". It is an entirely unique caveat put in place, rather conveniently, by the allied forces which was not party to the normal terms of any recognised SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement).

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Did the Iraqi administration in its form at the time agree to it?

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You know what? I could agree with your post if it would " protect even more in the future", because it will not!
Regardless what is happening on the ground, is it right to oppose execution on humanitarian grounds yet approve mass killings and woundings of innocents?
If you are saying you can have both then that is your opinion, youre quite entitled to it, but you can only, in my book anyway, have one thing or the other, if hypocrisy is not to be seen to be playing a part.

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Read it, do you see any Iraqi signatures on it?

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I'll take your avoidance of the question as a yes.

---------- Post added at 10:15 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------

I think you'll find that the proposed victims of the prevented suicide bombers and their offspring would beg to differ, as an example.


The only issue I have with the death penalty being used in general circumstances is that guilt cannot be guarenteed 100% of the time.
So as a mass punishment, I am against it.
Taking a single case in exceptional circumstances such as Saddams, I see no benefit in keeping him alive.

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And you'd be, typically, wrong.

It was passed by Bremner, it's called the "Coalition Provisional Authority Order Number 17" - no mention of Iraqi's there then. It opens with "Pursuant to my authority as head of the Coalition Provisional Authority". The clue here is in "my", singular, as opposed to "our", multiple. Unless Bremner sat down and negotiated this document with himself, who knows, it wasn't negotiated or agreed with anybody (hence the singular signatory).

---------- Post added at 10:15 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------

I think you'll find that prior to the invasion of Iraq, in its entire history, there had never been a single internecine suicide bomb attack. Are you thinking of getting into the fortune telling business?;)

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Care to justify that comment?

And I think you'll find that its had to be negotiated with the Iraqi goverment and has their approval, or did you forget about that?

What thread are you reading? :confused:

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You seem to be overlooking the fact that I've provided a link to the actual document above which, quite clearly, evidences the fact that it was neither negotiated nor agreed with anyone. It was imposed by Bremner in his capacity as "Head of the Coalition Provisional Authority".

The one where you are attempting to excuse the deaths of innocent civilians by postulating that "proposed victims of the prevented suicide bombers" should in some way be thankful that they are actually killed by coalition forces as opposed to hypothetically, possibly or even maybe killed by some or other suicide bomber in their midst.

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So, would you say that you are against mass killings of people who have no hand in the actions of the insurgents ?
As for the death penalty, if it can be proven beyond all doubt that person " a" murdered person(s) " b" then I say if you take a life or lives you deserve no less, however to drop bombs into massed areas to target the few imo is wrong.
I am open in the circumstances that I see execution favourable, sadly this government are not so forthcoming.
I see no benefit in keeping sadam alive either, but our government say they do not condone execution under " humanitarian " grounds, yet will order, yes that word " order " mass bombings.
They cant attempt to wipe the blood from their hands by claiming " collateral damage " but they do, which is where hypocrisy comes into the mix imo.

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"Head of the Coalition Provisional Authority" would be the Iraqi administration at the time?
You're also strangely overlooking the fact that the original document was created with an expiry date, and the Iraqi goverment agreed to its extension.


Where am I excusing their deaths?
I've made no reference to excuses or denied that civilian lives lost are tragic.

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I have a feeling that my post has been misread or misinterpreted.:(
I`m Glad Saddam Hussein is Dead.
I do not agree with the mass bombings of populated areas to target a few, unfortunately, In ww2, the germans bombed innocent civilians trying to get to the factories making the weapons, i`m afraid the bombing was rather indiscriminate to say the least.
The allied forces went this country to help the innocents. Of course there will be some casualties. I think with the disposal of Saddam, we all have saved more lives and these people are now able to breathe freely.
War is never a good thing but until governments are able to sit down around a table and agree things, they are inevitable.

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The world is not black and white but shades of grey.
You've heard the phrase "lesser of two evils" when posed with destroying an insurgent stronghold and occupants, along with their civilian neighbours, that is the lesser of two evils compared with inaction allowing them to blow up hundreds of civilians or cause a religious backlash by attacking a mosque or religious site.
The only really good thing to come out of a war is the end.
Pretty much everything between the begining and the end is bad or neutral.

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I would like to share your optimism, sadly experience tells me different.
But just lets not have the hypocrisy that we currently have.
If we are all sat debating that it is all roses there this time next year then something has worked, lets do away with the hypocrisy this government show.

---------- Post added at 11:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------


I can follow your logic to an extent ;)
Does nothing to address the hypocrisy though does it?

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Sorry, but no.

Bremner himself, as I posted earlier, identifies himself in the opening sentence as "Head of the coalition provisional authority". He is neither Iraqi nor an administration.

There was no Iraqi administration at the time. The document is clearly dated and signed 27/June/2004. That's 3 days before the US "transferred sovereignty".

The Iraqi government (interim or otherwise) did not agree its extension. It was granted for the duration of the occupation and for an undetermined timeframe thereafter as clearly defined under Section 20 "Effective Period" directly above Bremners (sole) signature.

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Think of it like this, with the death penalty as a punishment, there are alternative punishments which other nations such as ours believe to be suitable, such as life in prisonment (although in this country, a few years imprisonment appears to be more the case).
There are alternatives to the death penalty.

With an insurgent stronghold surrounded by civilians (as they are trained to do by Iran and Syria because of the negative image dead civilians give to the West), there is often no suitable alternative than to attack from afar, with the risk to civilian lives.
Where alternatives are suitable, they have been shown to be taken, such as the recent raid on a police station.
Rather than doing a nice safe airstrike, forces were used to take the building, and then destroy it.

Now, it's all well and good being armchair generals, and saying "yes but they could have sent in special forces" etc (not saying you in particular are doing that, because you aren't), but we don't have all the facts, the people calling the shots have more than we do, and they don't have all of them either.

---------- Post added at 11:34 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

Once again, you're wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun23.html


*That'd be the law in Iraq at the time of the document, incase you didn't get that.

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"The Bush administration has decided to take the unusual step of bestowing on its own troops and personnel immunity from prosecution by Iraqi courts for killing Iraqis or destroying local property after the occupation ends and political power is transferred to an interim Iraqi government, U.S. officials said."

Thanks, the opening paragraph is pretty conclusive.

*That'd be "As a legal basis, Iraq's transitional law, which was worked out between Bremer and the now-disbanded Iraqi Governing Council, may be considered too weak a foundation for granting immunity. Sistani argued against it because it was not the work of elected officials.

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Nope sorry bud, still see the hypocrisy that our government opposes execution in humanatarian grounds ( they are thinking about life ) but from the other tongue order an attack that will kill or maim thousands, then try and use some vision of a " better place " in justifying it.
Going by that logic, when we knew, or rather, the government knew the july bombers were in london, why did the word not go out to carpet bomb london? in the 60's or the 70's we could have done the same in ireland!
At the end of the day there will be a difference of opinion, thats fine by me.

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Yep, and unless I am wrong, correct me if so ;) , our troops do not have that protection.

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I don't follow your "logic"
For starters, they didn't know they were in london until after the bombs went off.
If they had know they were in Leeds, then they would have been able to send in a small force to deal with them, just as they do similar raids in Iraq, you do realise it's not all "hey, there's some insurgents in that building, call in an air strike!" don't you?
Leeds isn't known for having a large population of RPG/assualt rifle carrying anti-authority insurgents is it? (well it wasn't when I was last there).

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John reid? " The services are "aware" of units being active.
I think that spells it out.
However, thats going off topic, sorry I went off topic.
Just to add, I have spent some time in the services.
But the government cannot justify dropping bombs on innocent people by claiming that its for a better tomorrow, otherwise, bearing in mind its only a few of them, for what its worth, the officers on the ground should know how many insurgents they are looking at, why not do the same here or ireland if its to rid the world of terror?

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It was still the law at the time, sorry Mr Angry, but no matter how you like to paint it, it was created under Iraqi law, it was extended under Iraqi law, and it's still under Iraqi law.
I'm sure you'd prefer that US soldiers were tied up in trumped up court cases by corrupt members of the Iraqi police force, and hung just like Saddam, after all, you've made no attempt to hide what value you place on the lives lost over there.
Personally, in such a risky enviroment, I'd give every coalition worker the same protection.
Here you are on one hand saying that the Iraqi law wasn't valid enough to have this order, yet on the other you'd have that same "invalid" law used against coalition forces.

---------- Post added at 12:00 ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 ----------

You're aware of coalition forces being active in Iraq, but do you know exactly where they are?
See the difference between being aware of something, and knowing all the details.

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Thanks ;) , so, if you are saying or infering that where there is a lack of intelligence, as to where the insurgents are exactly, " lets take the work out of it and drop some bombs in that area, there are some in there, some civilians too, but hey thats not our worry, we are out for a better tomorrow "
Still doesnt answer the hypocrisy of the whole thing.

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No its more along the lines that the area is too fortified for a troop attack to be successful.

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Sorry but you're wrong. It's there, in black and white, and you even went to the bother of linking to a post disproving your own argument. Thanks.

That's a particulary judgemental and nasty piece of commentary, even from you. It appears that you are now judge and jury on how or where my sentiments lie with regard to deceased servicemen and their families. Still, I suppopse it fits with your fantasy idea of actual conflict and war situations. For the record - I've a great deal more respect for soldiers, living and dead, than I have for weekend war fantasists whose idea of a tough decision in a war scenario comes down to what colour of paintballs to use.

And, in the event of a handover to a legitimate government would you allow them to recind that protection - or would that be just a little "too democratic" for your taste?

Lets deal with the facts. I didn't say the Iraqi law wasn't valid - that was a comment made and quoted in the news story you linked to which defeated your own "argument". I stated that Iraqi law was not used to determine Order 17 - again proven in the opening gambit of the story you linked to and by the copy of the actual document drafted by an American and signed by an American.

Stop digging?

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I for one never doubted you Mr Angry :tu:

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Thank you Bill.

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Rep on its way Mr A :)

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You mean an article which states it was within iraqi law, and extended under iraqi war?


Perhaps you'd like to appologise for the cheap shot you made over the deaths in iraq to get a 30 second video, I don't believe that's too much to ask for, especially as it's not the first time you've done it.

You mean like its extension and continued adherance agreed by the current elected goverment?

You stated those covered by order 17 are outside Iraqi law, which patently is not the case as order 17 is upheld by Iraqi law through the agreement of the elected Iraqi goverment.

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Tut Tut i got told off for saying in public that i had given someone a rep. ;)

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:notopic: To clarify: Nothing wrong with saying you have repped someone. What is unacceptable is asking others to give rep if you can't, begging for rep or discussion of reps received.

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You're scraping new depths.

You selectively edited my post to omit the highlighted part below.

"My thoughts are with the widows, fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters of the servicemen and women who have lost their lives in exchange for a 30 second clip of morbid sensationalism being streamed around the world. I'm sure it's no comfort, whatsoever, for them - particularly at this time of year."

You'd do well to remember that these men and women went to war in the belief that their mission was to remove Saddam Hussein from power, which they did. I also pointed out that British, American and coalition losses post the achievement of the original stated objective were almost entitrely avoidable save for the fact that the US was hell bent on occupation - not something mentioned in Blairs speech of March 20th - which I also quoted.

You might be happy twisting your interpretation of what I wrote to satisfy some perverse playground argument you cannot concede defeat on but I'll certainly not be apologizing to you or any of your war fantasist ilk for sentiments which I know for a fact are foremost in the minds of many grieving widows, widowers, parents and children given that the two main protagonists who sent these people to their deaths can barely muster anything beyond a preprepared press release or soundbite - such is their evident urgency to find a way out of a quagmire created by their nefarious lies and deceit.

Whilst I very much doubt that the vast majority of posters and viewers of these forae share the same poor interperative grasp of the english language and expressions thereof as yourself I will state, unequivocally, that if there are posters on this forum who genuinely feel that I have cheapened the loss of their loved ones lives by stating a fact then they are welcome to come forward or pm me and I'll afford them an apology.

As for your other "points". I have provided the facts (and indeed the Order) in black and white whereas you insist on postulating your ill informed opinion on this matter as some sort of factual analysis to the point that you scurry around to find links which actually undermine your own "argument".

Give it a rest son, your strawman attempts are pathetic, as indeed are your attempts to use these deaths as some sort of moral high ground bargaining chip in an argument with me. This argument, unlike Iraq, is over.

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You lay claim that they died for a 30 second clip, if you cannot see how that belittles and trivialises their loss then there is no hope for you. To make matters worse you bring in the pain their families have suffered, making out their pain was over a trivial matter as well.

You would have the coalition forces remove Saddam, then just walk away?

I have not needed to twist anything, suggesting the deaths of men and women, and the pain felt by their loved ones was simply to get a 30 second clip of saddam swinging from a rope is what you said, and I am truly disgusted by your attitude towards their loss.

As I said, the article which points out that it was introduced under the Iraqi law of the time, and extended under Iraqi law, and currently active under Iraqi law, therefore anyone processed via the order is done so under Iraqi law.

Please do grow up, perhaps then you will stop trivialising the deaths of anyone, and become man enough to apologise.

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You're a piece of work Xaccers.

You're up to the old "selective editing malarkay" you left out this...

"Whilst I very much doubt that the vast majority of posters and viewers of these forae share the same poor interperative grasp of the english language and expressions thereof as yourself I will state, unequivocally, that if there are posters on this forum who genuinely feel that I have cheapened the loss of their loved ones lives by stating a fact then they are welcome to come forward or pm me and I'll afford them an apology."

That's apology with one "p". Not only do I know how to offer them but I know how to spell it.

Given the tone of the last message you sent me I'm genuinely concerned for your mental well being.

I suggest you go make yourself a cup of tea, break out the ration pack you bought on ebay and go play with your toy gun to calm down a bit.

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I'm closing this one down for a while as I don't like the way it's going, I'll reopen it later when hopefully thing have calmed down.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Enough of the *personal* remarks.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Reopened, you know the rules.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

arcamalpha, I think you are (perhaps unintentionally) putting forward the premise that the Coalition governments have given orders that bombs should be dropped on innocent civilians, and equating that with the execution of Saddam.

You are equating execution with firing weapons in a conflict - comparing apples and frogs. And before anyone says that the troops should endeavour to avoid civilian casualties, I should stress that all troops are given these guidelines, and I am sure that most try to follow them, but not as easy as it sounds when RPG's and bullets are pinging off (and through) your transport (not an excuse, just, perhaps, a reason).

Unfortunately, real life is not like the movies, and when a house with insurgents in it gets destroyed in a firefight/bombed, buildings (and people) around it get damaged/injured/killed too - it's not nice, but the option is to allow insurgents the ability to fire at Coalition and Iraqi forces unopposed. You make it sound as if the order is to injure/kill civilians, and if that is not what you meant, you perhaps need to rephrase the statement "the government cannot justify dropping bombs on innocent people" and "mass killings" (post 332).

I don't think that the American siege of Falluja (estimated civilian deaths 600) was a good thing, but I don't use it to tar the rest of the Coalition forces with the same brush

You mentioned you spent some time in the services - what mob were you in, and did you see "active service"?

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How is execution defined?
A bomb is dropped in an area, this results in x amount of people killed, I am sorry, but this cannot be excused with the excuse " we meant to kill the 50 insurgents in that building "
Looking at the above, could it be said that under humanitarian reasons the attack should not have happened?

Yet our government oppose " execution " on humanitarian grounds.
So where are we with this government? they cannot legitimate execution of one group of people yet distance themselves when we have an example of hanging, at the end of the day it is still execution, imo its not apples and frogs, one dead body through hanging is the same as one dead body through a indiscriminate bombing, you see, when the ira were blowing up civilians in ireland our government were on the tv deploring, and rightly so, the indiscriminate killings, but now along with america they see things differently, is that not hypocrisy?
I dont need to disclose where I served during my service, does this influence what I am entitled to say? why ask?
I think I have made my point, over to others ;)

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So do you believe that we should not bomb buildings from which Iraqi insurgents are mounting attacks and killing Iraqis and Coalition personnel?


I think the big difference we have is that you seem to equate "state execution" as the same as "acts of war", which if you were, in fact, in the regular armed forces for any length of time, is an extremely unusual viewpoint, and a strange moral equivalence.

I did not say you "had to" disclose where you served, I only asked out of curiosity, as most people are proud of their service career, and are willing to discuss it; and yes, I (imho) do believe it influences an answer, as personal experience can vary one's viewpoint. It's my belief if you had seen action, you would have realised that everything isn't nice and neat and tidy when things are whizzing past your head (and I don't mean paintballs or airsoft). I wonder what your last three were?

And the fact you equate the IRA bombing of civilians with Coalition bombing in Iraq means we will never see eye-to-eye on this subject - I believe that the IRA intended to kill civilians as part of a terrorist campaign, whilst the Iraqi casualties are killed by accident during an attack on insurgents (doesn't make it any better for them, but surely motivation has to be involved somewhere for guilt to be attributed). You keep using the emotive phrase "indiscriminate bombing" when there is no evidence to back up that phrase.

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http://www.google.com/search?num=100...ition&ct=title


Does not mention bombing someone there.

I honestly think that if you had your way you would have us bring our troops home and charge them all with murder, Is that what you think ?

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:35 ----------

That is because they targeted civilian areas , Take my home town of Warrington, They blew up a Mcdonalds on a Saturday afternoon when all the kids were there. There are no solders or military targets there ?. Now that is not what the lads serving in iraq are doing or do you think differently ?

As has been said here, If you have been involved in operations and have been at the sharp end then you WILL know that everything in war is not black and white, Its a nasty horrible business that leaves a mark on anyone involved, If you have had to make that decision as to whether you pull the trigger or not on a 120mm tank gun with real people on the receiving end then you will know its not a decisions made lightly ?. Our troops some of them only 18 " my lad as just returned from 6 months in Afghanistan" have to make that decision everyday and then have to live with it for the rest of there lives.

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I'm just about sick of all the nasty sly insinuations that all our troops and servicemen are criminals.

They are in the majority decent hard working people who are doing the job that this country requires them to do.They do not need the backstabbing they are so patently getting from some in this forum.They also do not need all the talk of 'this war' being illegal WHILST they are still trying to keep the peace going.

What a great way to keep their morale up.Very easy for some to be armchair critics in a theoretical manner but as Bill says when you are up to your neck in the blood and guts of the job it's an entirely different view of reality.

I'd rather leave the recriminations about this war until OUR SERVICEMEN HAVE COMPLETED THE JOB AND RETURN HOME.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

:clap::clap::clap:

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:clap: :clap: :clap:

Well said. :tu:

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good.


most of this thread is entertaining but I couldnt give a toss about Saddam - the well being of our troops is more important - the ones working out there in Afghanistan and Iraq.

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Exactly how many service people view Cable Forum then? So far in this thread I have only seen one member post about the conduct of British soldiers and if as I believe they have done nothing wrong and have maintained the best traditions of the British army, they have nothing to worry about, I also believe the vast, vast majority of the British public support the army in all operations, however that doesn't mean you have to support the fact that they are there in the first place, nor let the people that sent them there under strength, under equipped, without international support and with questionable legality, of the hook.

I am not sure Tony Blair would agree with you about waiting for their return either, after all hasn't he been telling us it was time to move on for a couple of years now.

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Exactly, some people seem to think because you dont like the fact that the British Army are in Iraq, you must hate the soldiers on the ground. I for one don't agree with the war in Iraq, but I wouldnt wish that the Brit soldiers there die as a result of their involvement. Likewise I wouldn't say they deserve whatever they get while they're serving there.

I think most critics of the war are anti govt not anti personnel. And by that I mean we're against it based on the reasons for going to war in the first place.

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S_l_m,

may I just suggest a slight edit to your post - instead of "Exactly, people seem to think", may I suggest "Exactly, some people seem to think" ;)

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

For all you know, there may be a few. I am not saying if any do or don't (regardless of whether I know or not, I am not at liberty to say).

However, if there are any soldiers reading then they probably don't need to be told they are fighting an illegal war. I believe that's what Incog was saying.

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done............. :)

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Even if there are thousands, all they will have seen here really, is support for them and sympathy for the situation they are in and you are right they don't need to be told about the questionable nature of the war, they aren't stupid they already know

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You can multiply 1000 times this web site and still not hit the number of forums discussing the same issues with some of the same attitudes and opinions...So it would be quite easy to for a few hundred of our 'lads' to see such opinions all over the net.

I'm all for truth and democracy,however I want to make sure we win the propaganda and morale war as well.At the moment the 'other side' can take heart from the hand wringing that is STILL going on about WMD and the legality of the war and are even more encouraged to take up arms because they see the dissent rather than the total support our servicemen and women deserve..

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I appreciate this thread has a particular flavour, so apologies for going elsewhere with it and for butting in. I just didn't want to start another thread.

Just been more than a bit disappointed that the administrator of another forum I have been using for the best part of a decade, has made a post with not just the link to the mobile phone footage of Saddam, but an embedded YouTube video - fortunately it's not an autostarter.
Why anyone would want to see that is beyond me?
:( :confused: :td:

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The more it becomes an international controversy, and the more you hear people on TV and radio talking about it, the more likely folks are to say to themselves, "well, I suppose I should go and see what all the fuss is about then." However, that's a world apart from embedding the video into a forum post where plenty of people who didn't want to see it are likely to trip over it.

Even so, it all rather reminds me of the stories of nice little old grannies sitting by the gilloutine doing their knitting and watching while the toffs got their heads separated from their shoulders. Of course, if normal, civilised, nice people go to watch an execution, then it must be ok for everyone else to watch too, eh?

I'm not going to watch it myself. I'm one of those (apparently shrinking) number of people who thought the point in history when we abandoned public executions in this country was a civilised step forward.

The treatment of the vanquished Saddam Hussein should have been a chance for those who replaced him to show that thier way is better than his. On the current evidence, they're not doing very well at all. At least the antics that took place within Saddam's gruesome torture chambers and gallows didn't have a tendency to leak out via the WWW or the world media.

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Totally agree, I have no interest in seeing it.
He's dead, I know that, why do I need to see it happen?
By posting it embedded in a forum, you remove people's right to choose not to see it.
One of the things I like about the forums I run or frequent, is that the admins are sensible enough to put warnings on anything which may offend, and not allow anything which may sicken.
Someone at work showed me a video without asking me first, of what I guess was a russian soldier being murdered in the most vile way, and I have to ask, why would any normal person want to watch that?

I can see where you're coming from, but on the subject of being better or equal to his way, at least from what I've heard hanging (trap door method rather than strangulation) is quick and relatively painless, compared with his way of doing it (wood chipper, beaten to death, etc).

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I'm in complete agreement with you, Chris.
I've long since given up the way of posting about it at my regular haunts though (in fact, my regular haunts just bore the teeth off me now, hence my visit back here recently).
Because, whilst I just want to say that I believe capital punishment doesn't 'need bringing back' to 'mend today's society' I know in the most part I'll just suffer taunts of being a do-gooder, and how would I feel if my Mother/Father/Daughter etc had been murdered and the murderer caught etc. Which is probably a very good point, truth be told - I couldn't pretend not to want the very worst for them I'd expect. God willing, I'll never face that.
That's how I feel about the UK anyway - which, let's face it, is never going to reinstate CP.
In terms of capital punishment in Iraq - I dunno. I won't pretend to understand another county's culture, politics or rules. I'll only make myself look daft. I can only feel it's not right, but I don't feel justified in passing judgement. If that makes sense at all.

Watching someone be killed.. Wanting to deliberately watch someone be executed.
That's something I'll never get my head 'round though.
Each to their own of course - morbid curiosity and all that.
Not really something I'd expect to see on a forum, but hey.

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I did watch it - someone emailed me a link to a youtube vid but it didn't say what it was... silly me. you really can't make out much though on the actual clips of his death.

much more disturbing was the (other) footage of the body afterward. :disturbd:

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I saw it, and it looked a fairly quick death.

There didn't appear to be any strangling, the trap door seemed very effective and there was a very long drop. ie. a long length of rope.

As I have said in the past, I couldn't watch an animal being treated badly but a viscious vile person is another matter. What do people really expect, how do they expect people to act from these sort of countries.

That in my mind is the biggest problem, people seem to judge these people by their own standards that we have in a civilised country. Saddams opponents are probably no better, if they were in power they would of probably done exactly the same things to their rivals.

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True, I have no doubt that in many ways he was accorded dignity that his lieutenants denied others. However, to allow the taunting, and to be sloppy enough not to prevent someone filming it ... that's really poor. I think it's going to come back and bite our collective national @rses (Brit, Yankee and Iraqi) in a very big and painful way.

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Thats a pretty sweeping statement. Saddam had a lot of opponents and I am sure most of them found the constant murders and debatible genosides as sickening and unthinkible. Let alone do them themselves. Its like saying Hitlers opponents would have commited the holocaust if they were in power.

Are you refering to anyone or am I missing something else :confused:

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Mmmmmmmm.......

Fairly sweeping statements.

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I live in a free and democratic country for I have the power of choice and change. ? . Maybe .

Democracy and freedom is the illusion that we need to give the masses to empower them for we govern and have true power to judge and execute power. Empowerment is a prerequisite to stabilize those without power.

A basic economy also gives them the false illusion of wealth for we are the ones who hold the key chips and markers.

FEAR ! Media has delivered the last mass entrapment weapon of mass destruction. Fear the masses even sacrifice a few what the heck they are expendable with respects to our multi billion dollar enterprise - theres nothing like a little fear to re-endorse ideals of Freedom, democracy and protection of our way of life(I mean enterprise).

Consider us all required entities on a production line without us cohesively working together our great free and democratic country would not be what it is today. You may strongly disagree that you do not have a hand to any of the atrocities / poverty dotted around the globe but unfortunately you do.

How then can a new born baby born to a first gen country be accountable to someones hunger in a third world country ? Think a little hard in terms of the economic impact of that childs birth and slightly stir with 'Chaos' unification theories.

Anyway to the point 'Sadam' - Another execution fresh off the production line it's not the first and will not be the last just don't get upset when said terrorist decides to bomb us personally.

The unfortunate thing is that the terrorist thinks that the action will grab the attention of those who govern without realizing that those injured and killed were somehow directly responsible for their own personal grievousness... Hold on a sec it's a "democracy" and an attack on our way of life. Let the masses stand strong and let's sacrifice a few more pawns - this is how our enterprise works.

" I just wish I was REALLY free from all this "

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Phew - and I thought I was cynical......

As Winston Churchill once said
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those others that have been tried."

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Yep and I still think we live in the matrix mate.:D

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You just need to look at how these people act in these countries compared to countries in Europe etc.

These countries will never have peace, they will always be at war with each other, to expect the toppling of one dictator to solve the countries problems just will not happen. Within time Iraq will stand on its own two feet again, and further down the line when the west looses interest it will probably end up again being run by some other dictator killing his enemies.

Do we really think these countries value a life at the same level as a life is valued in the UK.

Before everyone has a go at me or twisting what I am pointing out, just look at the actions of the people in places like Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Israel, Lebanon etc. I was flamed before for saying these countries are third world countries, its nothing to do with the technology they have but everything to do with the attitude in these countries.

Life is not important but religion is.:confused:

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I think a little bit of education would do you good mate... Maybe a trip to pakistan to meet the " savages " in person would do you good ? rofl.

Out of curiosity how long have we been " Civilized " for ? 200 ? 100 try maybe 50 years.

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On Gandhi's first visit to London, someone asked him the question: 'Mr Gandhi, what do you think of civilization in England?' to which he replied 'I think that it would be something worth trying!'

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Here's an interesting article from the Grauniad about the whole Saddam GooTube affair...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1981081,00.html

Well said, imo :tu:

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In 1900, the British introduced the first modern use of concentration camps.
First World War in Europe - 8 million military and 5 million civilian deaths.
The USSR/Russia killed 62 million people between 1917-1987.
Germany killed 21 million people between 1933-1945.
Some of the European Baltic States seem to indulge in tribal warfare/genocide (Serbia, Croatia, etc).

We need to be careful with the statement "these people", as European history seems to consist of a few of "these people".

Escapee, you need to read your history regarding "these countries" and "these people", as you stated above "These countries will never have peace, they will always be at war with each other". It was the United Nations/League of Nations, led by the US, UK, and France, that set up most of these countries, shoe-horning different tribes and ethnicities into artificial constructs to suit the UK/UK/France's political and economic requirements at the time.

Israel - Proposed, set up and initially administered by Great Britain in the 20th Century. Over three quarters of Israelis are European/American immigrants or their children or grand-children. Makes a bit of a mockery of your "these people" statement, doesn't it? :confused:
In 1917, the British Foreign Secretary Arthur J. Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration that "viewed with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nationsmandate administered by Britain. And of Israel's 7.1 million people, 76% were Jews, 20% Arabs, and 4% "others". Among Jews, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim: 22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.

Iraq - Set up initially administered by Great Britain in the 20th Century.
During World War I, the British and French divided the Middle East in the Sykes-Picot Agreement. The Treaty of Sèvres which was ratified by Treaty of Lausanne led to the creation of the modern Middle East and Republic of Turkey. The League of Nations granted France mandates over the Syria and the Lebanon and granted the United Kingdom mandates over the Iraq and the Palestine (which was comprised of two autonomous regions: Palestine and Transjordan). Parts of the Ottoman Empire on the Arabian Peninsula became parts of what are today Saudi Arabia and Yemen. During the British mandate, the country was ruled by British colonial administrators who used the British armed forces to put down rebellions against the government. They selected the Hashemite king, Faisal, who had been forced out of Syria by the French, to be their client ruler.

Iran - The Shah was put in power by the UK/US, and his dictatorial behaviour led to the Iranian revolution in 1979.
In 1951, an eccentric pro-democratic nationalist, Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh rose to prominence in Iran and was elected Prime Minister. As Prime Minister, Mossadegh alarmed the West by his nationalization of Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (later British Petroleum, BP) that had controlled the country's oil reserves. In response, Britain immediately embargoed Iran. Soon after, members of the British Intelligence Service invited the United States to join them in covertly overthrowing the democratically-elected Mossadegh. Initially, United States President Harry S. Truman refused, but after Dwight D. Eisenhower was elected the British proposed the plan again. After convincing Eisenhower that Mossadegh was sympatheic to communism (even though he was an avowed anti-communist), the United States agreed to assist Britain in Operation Ajax. President Eisenhower authorized the CIA to take the lead in the operation of overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a US/Israeli-friendly monarch. The operation was successful in triggering a coup, and within days, pro-Shah tanks stormed the capital and bombarded the Prime Minister's residence. Mossadegh surrendered, and was arrested on 19 August 1953. He was tried for treason, and sentenced to three years in prison. Mohammad Reza Pahlavi's rule became increasingly autocratic in the following years. With strong support from the US and UK, the Shah further modernized Iranian industry, but simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition with his intelligence agency, SAVAK. 1979 saw an increase in protests against the Shah, culminating in the Iranian Revolution. The Shah fled the country again, after which Khomeini returned from exile on February 1, 1979 and eventually succeeded in taking power.

Lebanon - Set up and administered by the French in the 20th Century.
This area became a part of the French Mandate of Syria. On September 1, 1920, France formed the State of Greater Lebanon as one of several ethnic enclaves within Syria. Lebanon was a largely Christian (mainly Maronite) enclave but also included areas containing many Muslims and Druzes. On September 1, 1926, France formed the Lebanese Republic. The Republic was afterward a separate entity from Syria but still administered under the French Mandate for Syria. 40% of the Lebanese are Christian. Until the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990), the country enjoyed relative calm and prosperity, driven by the tourism, agriculture, and banking sectors of the economy. It was considered the banking capital of the Arab world and was widely known as the "Switzerland of the Middle East" due to its financial power. Lebanon also attracted large numbers of tourists, to the point that the capital Beirut became widely referred to as the "Paris of the Middle East."

Pakistan - Less said about the fall-out from the British Empire in the Indian sub-continent, the better, I think.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Saddams execution - A muslim point of view

Most muslims I know happen to be Sunni muslims. We all feel that Saddam should have been tried for his trial and if the outcome is death then so be it. No one disputes that he is guilty of horrific crimes against his own people, and fellow muslims and for that he should be punished.

The thing which was upsetting for us was the manner in which he died and the timing. The month of Hajj is one of the most sacred in the Islamic calender, both to Sunni and Shiite Muslims. Altho he was executed before the day of Eid Ul Adha (which is the 10th of the islamic month), the fact that he was executed in this month left a feeling of sadness and disgust at fellow muslims who carried out the executuon.

Additionally he was not able to recite the full Shahadat (Islamic Oath) and the trap door was opened mid way through. This is especially distasteful considering the punishment was carried out by muslims.

People will argue that Saddam offered no compassion to the Kurds that he killed, to the Shiites he killed, to all the innocent lives he took. But if the government that has replaced his is supposed to be a better one, than offering him that dignity/compassion at his time of death would have been the best way of showing that the govt in Iraq is a lot better than Saddams.

His execution has been witnessed by millions of muslims worldwide and from an Islamic perspective I think the image of the government in Iraq has been severely damaged. Its ironic that the death of such an evil dictator has elevated his status over the democratically elected govt thats replaced him, but this could have been avoided with a bit more thoughtfulness as regard to the timing and the manner of the execution.

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Top post, but I doubt the people in Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia will be pleased...

;) :angel:

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Saddam was courageous? Poxy Guardian. That's absolutely pathetic. :td:

Disgusting article. The author may have wet dreams of being with Saddam but any reasonable person wouldn't. Who wrote it anyway, Galloway?

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Agreed good post " foreverwar ".

I'm outa this thread I've spent my 2 cents.

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I disagree, mate. Now, firstly I have to say that I'm no fan of Saddam. However, I saw the sanitized version of the execution as it was shown on the news, and didn't really think anything of it. Then I started hearing how it didn't happen anything like the Iraqi government were trying to portray, and after thinking about it for a while, I viewed the "mobile phone" copy on GooTube.

I think he did maintain a sense of courage right until the trapdoor was opened.

I also agree with the points that SLM has made earlier about the timing of the execution, the manner in which it was handled, etc... Those performing the event did not do anything to improve the perception of the Iraqi government's handling of the whole affair.

Maybe it has something to do with me being against capital punishment, but even if this is what the Iraqis chose as Saddam's fate, I think there are ways of doing it that can demonstrate that society is 'better' than the person they are supposed to be punishing.

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Good people don't have a monopoly on courage and I have to say from what I have heard about it, he was a lot more dignified than his executioners

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I have a different take on courage though mate. To me, courage is running into a burning house to save the life of someone, especially if you aren't related. Not being executed for massacring thousands of lives, along with other assorted war crimes.

Courage is doing something dangerous or hard when there is an option of an easier route. Saddam was going to be executed regardless.

It goes back (a little) to what Escapee was saying. Shortly after the country fell, the police service was filled with newly-trained Shiite recruits (long before insurgents infiltrated the police force). Ones that should remember, and be able to learn from Saddam & his sons' tyranny. They promptly started torturing anyone they rounded up. The replacements were as bad as the people they were replacing.

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So where now for Iraq. When do we step in again to change the regime? Or is a puppet Shiite governemnt better than an out of control Sunni one.

What do I see in Iraq in 10 years from now? The country split into 4, Sunnis in one bit, Kurds in another and the ****es in another. The 4th part would be the oilfields under control of the Allied nations.

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Yeah, maybe courage isn't the most appropriate word... TheDaddy's use of dignified is probably more apt.