Re: smoking and the pub
 

Further to Chris T's post, consumption of alcohol does not affect the health of the person you are sitting next to. Exclusions to this might be drink driving and violence/abuse caused by alcohol. However, those incidents are minor when compared to the deaths caused by smoking - and furthermore with the ban on smoking we are talking really about protecting the health of non-smoking strangers. If a non-smoker chooses to sit with a smoker, then they take some responsibility for the effect it may have on their health.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

A Public House,just means it is open to the Public. They are not duty bound to anything apart from adhere to Health and Safety etc.etc.

A licencee is allowed, if they so wish, to pick and choose who they decide to provide the service to.

If they want to bar somebody, they can.

Anyway, the goverment have now at least given a choice (sort of) to the licencees.

Only pubs that serve food will have to ban smoking, therefore your good old fashioned drinking pub that doesn't serve food is ok to carry on.

Licencees that curretly serve food can now make a judgement as to what is most important to them and if they want to serve smokers they can simply stop serving food.

Simple as that, and as far as I can see that is the end of this particular issue.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Thank you, you have just summed up my point entirely...
This is also true.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm not so sure whether nearly half of all violent offences being alcohol related is minor when compared to smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It does if he or she is on a 12 month waiting list for an operation due to the fact that the health service is overburdened with alcohol related injuries and diseases.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I would love to have a water spray bottle and spray those who inist on blowing smoke over me, but i'ld problerly get done for assult, never mind them tring ti murder me with there smoke.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That might be a whole lot worse for your health than passive smoking :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Be realistic, please! Just how many people do you think you're talking about here? The number of people affected by smoking is vastly greater.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But come on, that's a very indirect impact. You could say the same for many, many other things. I am talking about the direct impact of someone sitting next to me smoking a cigarette, which is far more dangerous that someone sitting next to me drinking a pint.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I realise that you personally are not affecting the health of the person next to you by having a pint but the effect on an overstretched health service from alcohol related issues cannot be said to be insignificant by any means and, as such, alcohol should be banned if we are going to be even handed in all of this.


Right, I'm off to the dentist.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just because currently the idea to ban alcohol is not being discussed, it doesn't mean we shouldn't ban cigarettes. That's like saying, well we can't ban all knives, so let's not ban guns either.

Agreed, alcohol can be as dangerous as smoking. But the smoking brigade are all for freedom of choice with regards dangerous substances. All we can currently do is try to protect those who chose not to smoke from those who do. No one is trying to stop people from smoking. With alcohol, there is currently no proof that there is a direct impact on the health of non-drinkers from people drinking around them that is strong enough to warrant prohibiton of alcohol consumption in public places.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And what is wrong with freedom of choice?

From what I can see in this thread the smoking brigade are as you say all for freedom of choice. They aren't saying that they should be allowed to smoke anywhere that they want. They just want people to be allowed to decide for themselves whether smoking is or isn't allowed on premises that they own.

Some of the non-smoking brigade though are saying that there should be no freedom of choice. They say that their view should be applied to all places no matter what the owner or his customers want.

Why did we fight in two World Wars? Why do we fight against discrimination? Banning smoking in all public enclosed spaces is discrimination and is a loss of freedom.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's mute point now anyway, as the "total ban" supporters have not got their way.

Hooraahh

Re: smoking and the pub
 

See, this is the sort of attitude that gets me - why do you think that people are trying 'to murder you'?

I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of smokers do actually take non-smokers into account, and don't purposely blow smoke in their direction. While it's fair to say that you don'y like smokers / smoking, this is the sort of comment that is just far too extreme and is almost guaranteed to wind people (particularly smokers) up. Just IMO, of course :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

.
I am saying that sealed rooms should be provided for those who want to smoke.

Freedom of choice cannot be given free reign when it comes to health issues, hence current legislations on health and safety matters.

Not really, considering that :
__________________

He isn't saying everyone does it, just how he would like to react to those that do.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Good decision,letting the owner decide. :)

I hope all you non-smokers will stand by what you preach, and not go in the pubs that decide to allow smoking!

Now, how about a ban on people who bring their little brats to the pub on a Sunday/Bank Holiday.
I go there for a quiet drink (and a smoke), i don't want your kids running around screaming!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well freedom prevails for three more years then.
__________________

A greenie for you my friend. I could quite easily manage to enjoy a meal even if the person next to me was smoking.

But a screaming brat, or unruly 4,5,6 year old running around the place really does my head in.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Kind of. It's still a huge change for people who have pubs with restaurants.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I suppose you also think that car drivers are trying to "murder" you with their exhaust fumes? :rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The owner still doesn't get to decide. The decision now is:

Do I continue to serve food (which makes more profit), and **** my smoking, drinking 10 year long regulars whose custom sees me through the quiet times which will probably lead me into closing the business?

or

Do I just serve drink, and make about 3p a pint, therefore not make enough money to stay open?

Great choices.... :erm:

I very much doubt it. When else would they get the chance to **** and moan otherwise?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I love the fact that us anti-smokers are being made out to be miserable moaners. Sorry if your highly dangerous and stinking habit is something I would rather not be affected by! :rolleyes:
If the customers are that loyal I am sure they won't mind popping outside for a fag to be able to continue to support their friend's business...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's certainly true to say that car exhaust, like cigarette smoke, is bad for your heath when you are forced to breathe it in a confined space. :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's bad enough when you're pushing your baby in a stroller down the high street. Nothing to grin about really Chris.
__________________

Umm, a far as this thread demonstrates, 99% of you are. And your hypocrisy stinks nearly as much as the habit Clarie.

Fab Idea. All us smokers will stand outside the entrance, blowing smoke at all the non-smokers as they try to enter the building.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's not nearly as bad as you think. Thanks to catalytic converters, car exhaust is basically nitrogen and carbon dioxide. Quite useful for the suicidal but not directly harmful to the passing pedestrian (except for CO2 being a greenhouse gas of course).

Trying to make a direct comparison between tobacco smoke and car exhaust is yet another red herring.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And now you have the choice not to be affected by it.
But as orangebird said,i bet you'll still go in the pubs and moan.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Christ it's a hell of a lot less dangerous than smoking in an enclosed area where other people are!!!
We disagree with your point of view, that doesn't make us moaners.

And as for the hypocrisy comment, there is nothing hypocritical about realising the error of your ways and changing sides. So don't try and compare my enlightenment to the poison you put in your body and the bodies of others everyday.
What are you, 12? I am sure your friend will love you if you do that...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just passing through.. I don't give a :monkey: about the subject of this thread per se. Just a quick plea for calm and serenity on all sides please. :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

How do you know that? Or is that another wild assumption like what a pub is really for and what the publican has to provide to the public?

You don't think there's been any moaing in this thread from non-smokers? Are we reading the same thread??

Touched a nerve did I? :rofl:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I was going to suggest we all wrap ourselves in clingfilm and never leave the house when I remembered that clingfilm is reputed to be carcinogenic. ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Alcohol related illness, whether it be a peppered liver from years of drinking, a gash in the face from a passing drunk or a car crash caused by a drunk driver IS a major burden on the NHS. Removing these unnecessary cases from the NHS workload would significantly speed up the queues and allow people to be treated that much quicker. It therefore IS having an effect on the health of non-drinkers. Try attending casualty at 1 a.m. on a friday or saturday night and, chances are, you will have quite a wait ahead of you.

Alcohol is completely unnecessary in society. Nobody needs it (or should need it). It costs the NHS a lot of money and takes up a lot of resources. It does affect the health of drinker and non-drinker alike. Why shouldn't it be banned?

It's as fair and reasonable as a ban on smoking. Smokers are, in the main, willing to compromise through dedicated sealed smoking areas and the like. It's the non-smokers that refuse to bend in any way to a compromise but will throw a hissy fit if anyone suggests taking away their beloved booze FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON that get me.

I am a drinker and a smoker. I don't want to see either banned but I also want to be able to go for a pint and a smoke whether it be through smoking/non-smoking pubs or dedicated smoking areas.

Oh, and it's "moot" Pierre ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

When you're pushing a stroller and the child is at the a
same low height constantly, there's a big difference to the average pedestrian. That's why I mentioned children in strollers specifically the first place.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Stop trying to get one over on someone by nitpicking, everyone knows what she meant and so do you.

Everyone knows that smoke within a confined space is more harmful than in an open place as the ratio of air to smoke is much higher, its common sense.

If you put as much effort into quitting as you have into defending the 'right' of the smoker, I'm sure you'd be able to survive without cigarettes.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

How the hell would you know?

Nitpicking????? I'm asking someone to quantify their point, because as it stands it's unsubstantiated. What's your issue? Think that your non-smoking comrade won't be able to either? :rolleyes: :dozey:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That is a good point (and one I can identify with). Personally I don't drive the family into the city centre, I'd rather park and ride on the train, it's far better for everyone concerned (my family and other pedestrians) (even if the lifts at Glasgow Central low-level platform are normally broken and we have to get a ticket inspector to help lug the pram up the stairs :grind: ).

But though it may be unpleasant, car exhaust, once catalysed, does not contain anything like the carcinogens you get in tobacco smoke, and the fumes are not drawn so deeply into the lungs as they are when you smoke.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Heh, one moment your accusing other people of thinking that they are better than you because they are stronger willed, and then the next your trying to insuinuate that you are more clever than others, because we have differing views...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

There is one question that I would like to ask of those who want a complete ban on smoking in ALL public enclosed spaces.

Why do you object to a pub owner wanting to allow smoking in his establishment if he displays a prominent notice signifying that it is a smoking area at all entrances to the pub?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

AFAIK the driver gets more fumes than any pedestrains!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And making out that smokers are "trying to murder" non-smokers is a pathetic argument.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I am just watching the news on ITV1 and they have been asking pub landlords in Burton on Trent how the proposed smoking ban would affect them. A large number said that they will stop serving food as they will lose less profit that way than keeping the food and banning smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Staff

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Agreed.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Employ only staff who smoke

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Wouldn't that be discrimination against non-smokers who wish to remain working at that pub?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just to add something to this discussion, I thought I'd mention some of the lovely stuff you're breathing-in every time a diesel-powered car drives past you.

Diesel exhaust contains 20-100 times more particles than petrol exhaust. These particles carry cancer-causing substances known as polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). Gases in diesel exhaust, such as nitrous oxide, nitrogen dioxide, formaldehyde, benzene, sulphur dioxide, hydrogen sulphide, carbon dioxide, and carbon monoxide can also create health problems. (source: www.amicustheunion.org - the UK's largest manufacturing, technical & skilled persons' union.)

Incidentally, a lot of those chemicals are also found in cigarette smoke, so there actually is a direct correlation between tobacco smoke and car exhaust fumes.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Of course smokers take non-smokers into account. For a start they don't charge for all that free nicotine they're blowing into the air for everyone to consume. :jk:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Plus, smokers are paying a lot more tax than non-smokers, and although they will (usually) use more NHS resources than non-smokers, they (usually) won't be around to claim the state pension, so are less of a burden on society.

All the non-smokers I see in this thread that are whinging about the inconsiderate smokers should really be more grateful towards them.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I believe it should be up to the pub owner as to whether or not there will be smoking in their pub. Again, as a non-smoker I still think that is is ok to ban smoking in the work place because people have to work, but people don't have to go to a pub if they don't care for the smoke. What I would like to see if anything is a requirement to get good ventilation that pulls the smoke straight up so it doesn't linger through the pub. the pubs I go to usually have very good ventilation and therefore theres little smoke to worry about.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It may be discrimination but if all the smokers left the staff would have to be culled and most bar staff I know are not fulltime anyway, usually working in busy times after their regular employment, some have even been known to......shock horror, work for cash in hand, these would be the first to go as they would have no legal standing. It would revert to the old days when the licensee and his partner would run the pub with a barmaid to assist at busy times.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yeah, me and my wild assumptions eh. I mean imagine assuming that a publican has to work in the interests of the public :rofl:

There has been no more moaning from the non-smokers than there has the smokers. I think the word you are looking for is 'debating'.
I rest my case...
Interesting point actually. And quite funny too.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The term "pub" is derived from public house, a house which could be frequented by the public to consume beer, ale and cider, if there is a total ban on smoking then it will not be a "pub" but an exclusive establishment for non smokers, if this were taken to its' full extent it could be deemed discriminatory as certain classes of persons are excluded by reason of non admittance to smokers.
Smoking is not illegal nor is it an offence to be in possesion of smoking materials.
Certain other sustances, subject to control are illegal to have in possession but I wonder how many people you know take the high horse when tobacco is mentioned but will pop a few pills in the club ?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yeah but it isn't quite that is it. It won't be exclusive to non-smokers, just that the smokers cannot smoke inside the building. If that were the case then we would have to completely stop the term 'public place' from referring to all places where people cannot smoke, such as shopping centres. But what would help to alleviate the discrimination that you think smokers would be subject to would be, as I said earlier, a sealed smoking room or outside building for smokers.
Again I see your point, but the main issue here is that if Joe Bloggs pops a pill, his consumption will not have a direct impact on John Smith's health.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Could a MOD add a pole with the following questions: (They are duplicated for the obvious reasons)

Smoker - A complete ban in all public places
Smoker - A ban only in places that serve food
Smoker - There should be no ban
Non-Smoker - A complete ban in all public places
Non-Smoker - A ban only in places that serve food
Non-Smoker - There should be no ban

Re: smoking and the pub
 

If Joe Bloggs pops a pill, which is a criminal offence, and then kills by kicking to death John Smith who is waiting in the taxi rank this has a direct impact on John Smith.

This happened in a local town about 2 years ago, Joe Bloggs pleaded not guilty to murder as his mind was disturbed by pills and alcohol. QED

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Did Joe Bloggs get convicted?


Anyway this is beside the point. I am not denying the danger of alcohol or illegal drug abuse. But the fact that they are dangerous doesn't mean we should ignore the dangers of smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This is the second tortuous story that has now been conjoured up by people who appear desperate to portray alcohol as being as dangerous to third parties as tobacco is.

This is totally ridiculous. For a start, alcohol simply is not dangerous to someone who happens to be sitting next to someone who is drinking it, in anything like the sense that tobacco is. To claim otherwise is absurd, and, frankly, clutching at straws just a little. Secondly, even if alcohol were as dangerous (and it is not), it is plain illogical to suggest this fact as a reason not to do anything about tobacco. If it were the case, the solution would be to ban both. But as it's not, why don't we confine ourselves to a sensible discussion based on facts and not wild fantasies designed to prop up the indefensible arguments in favour of an indefensible habit.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Good point Chris T. Something else, of course, that needs to be remembered is that whilst in the case of alchohol, joe might get drunk and happen to punch john who is sitting next to him. MIGHT. But if joe is smoking next to john, this WILL have a detrimental effect on john's health.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Are John & Joe gay!
...wait til Frank finds out!

Oh you've got me all stressed now,going to have a ciggy.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Frank won't find out because he is in the smokers' room. :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Try telling my G/F that alcohol is not dangerous to her health, she is an A&E sister in a London hospital who has been assaulted a number of times and had her arm broken once.
Strangely enough all the incident reports she has submitted have included "patient smelled strongly of ethanol"

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm sorry but you talk about a sensible discussion while firstly, disregarding many of the points around alcohol - I mean, come on, you only need to venture into a town centre on a Fri/Sat night to see how socially destructive alcohol is - and secondly, if the points are accepted that either a separate room for smokers is required or banned completely from public places, then why is thier habit 'indefensible'. Many of the habits of non-smokers may not be to my liking but doesn't mean to say that I would feel I have the right to stop them doing it.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I think we need some stats then on how many people die due to alcohol related illnesses per year and how many are killed due to passive alcohol related illnesses (where someone has died due to the effects of someone else drinking).

and similar stats for smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Paul, if they're already employees, they obviously don't have a particular issue anyway (if they do they bloody stupid). This law is not coming in for over a year. If they felt that strongly, they wouldn't be working in the pub in the first place, and certainly wouldn't be wanting to wait that long for the law to take effect.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

There is a difference between alcohol and tobacco in that it's alcohol abuse that's the issue whereas with tobacco it's just use.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I did not say alcohol is not dangerous to health. I said it is not dangerous to health to anything like the same degree as tobacco is. Statistics bear this out. Tobacco smoking is the single biggest cause of preventable premature death in the UK, by a very, very long way.

There is no safe level of smoking - unlike alcohol.
There is no way of smoking that is not dangerous to the person sat next to you - unlike alcohol.

Alcohol carries a degree of risk, which is already recognised by laws which are currently more stringent than those applied to tobacco. You can't buy alcohol until you're 18. You can buy cigarettes when you're 16. You can only buy alcohol within certain licenced hours. You can buy cigarettes any time the shop that sells them is open. In many towns and cities in the UK, you cannot drink alcohol in the street (or can be told to stop by the police). You can smoke outdoors wherever and whenever you like.
__________________

As Andyl just said very succinctly, problems arise with alcohol when it is abused. Problems arise with tobacco when it is just used.

I'm not ignoring alcohol as an issue. I am merely saying that in the context of a discussion of tobacco, its use, the dangers of its use and possible restrictions on its use, it is a red herring, or worse, a smokescreen, tokeep banging on about alcohol. You can decry the demon drink all you like, but it doesn't make tobacco any less dangerous and it doesn't make the need to restrict tobacco use any less pressing.

The habit of smoking is indefensible because every smoker is fully aware that their habit is killing them and is adversely affecting those around them also. While it may not be the smoker's deliberate intent to harm themselves or anyone else, they cannot possibly be ignorant of the fact that this is happening. Arguments about freedom and choice pale into complete insignificance next to this. Choosing to indulge in the habit of smoking (I say choosing, some people are big enough to admit they want to stop but don't have the willpower), is absolutely indefensible.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:clap:
I have said it before and I will say it again, the big issue here is not free choice or freedom, and it is simply an excuse to defend the habit of smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

For you Clarie, I think you forgot to add.... :rolleyes:

MY issue is freedom of choice.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Of course. I wouldn't expect it any other way...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Not strictly true when compared to obesity rates for example. At least not a 'very, very long way' as you put it. See here, for example.

Again, although the dangers to health of smoking are widely known many people live to very old age quite happily whilst smoking for a significant proportion of their lives. This may be the exception but at least questions the fact that there is never a safe level to smoke. Like most things, effects are never in isolation. Other lifestyle factors, i.e. stress, diet, exercise, genetic disposition, etc. all have to be taken into account. Are smoking related illnesses prevalent in the meditteranean, for example, where diets and even factors such as sunlight differ from the UK?
Drinking can be dangerous to the person sat next to you if that person then punches you for example, as a direct effect of intoxication. To say that there is no danger is not true.

Fair comment.




We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I can think of many indefensible actions but smoking is not one of them. If somebody wants to put poison in thier body, aware that it may shorten thier lives, it is up to them. In some contexts this may be selfish, but still, is their decision. Perhaps smoking for some, is their one real pleasure in an otherwise hard life. Who knows. Perhaps for others it really helps relieve stress and therefore is a coping mechanism. Again, who knows. But I for one am not going to self-righteously say to anybody they should not be doing this and how selfish they are.

Maybe it's a choice at the start but smoking is an addiction like any other, hence why support is now available on the NHS.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I should point out I have the odd puff at home. But I don't see why others should have to inhale what I inhale.

And whilst I agree it is an addiction (though not for me) and that treatment should be offered for it, I don't see why that addiction need be inflicted upon others. Have a smoke by all means, just not in an enclosed public space.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

OK non smoker here.Been one all my life.Never liked smoking over food or in the bedroom but that is the only restrictions I insist on.

Would much rather other half didn't smoke but I appreciate how difficult it is for him to give up having watched the innumerable attempts to do so.In fact I hate being around him when he's trying to do so because it is heartbreaking when he falls off the wagon...I've supported him all the way each time enduring bad temper and depression on his side.Whenever he smokes at home he goes outside.I try to understand because he can't smoke at work these days. :(

However I still believe it should be a matter of choice in regards to pubs WHILST it is still not illegal to smoke tobacco.The moment it becomes illegal to smoke is when a full public ban should into place because I believe in the rights of ALL not just my fellow non smokers.I think that those who don't smoke should try to empathise with the difficulties of addiction and those that smoke should realise that it's bad enough living in a world that some smokers seem to regard as one big personal ashtray.

So how about just trying to see each others POV instead of thinking that only your viewpoint is the right one.As has been pointed out there are other issues that impinge on our health and are contrbutary to poor health that perhaps need our combined ire to sort out.Our air in general needs cleaning up..Now shall we give up our cars?I bet smokers and non smokers feel strongly enough about that together...Enough to make changes?

Failing that why not just agree to disagree?This ding dong argument is going nowhere at present.


Coggy. :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This one statement leaves me concerned that you didn't actually read my previous post(s), the thrust of which I thought was extremely clear:

and elsewhere:

To paraprase Claire (I think), if I sit next to a smoker, my heath *will* be compromised. If I sit next to a drinker, if I am very unlucky, my health *might* be compromised. It's a matter of degrees, and if tobacco is boiling point, alcohol is somewhere below freezing.

As for your other comments, yes, we wll have to agree to differ. I say it's indefensible because I rate the knowledge of tha harm it does above the freedom of choice aspect. You obviously take the contraty view. We're not about to change our minds on that point. :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The negative side-effects of smoking are not just limited to terminal illnesses though. It is true that some people do live to old age happily having smoked all of their lives but that isn't a strong argument against the dangers of smoking because whilst we know that smoking kills, there is no way of knowing if you are going to be one of those lucky people who lives to old age as a smoker. Furthermore the fitness levels, general health, and appearance of someone who has smoked all of their lives are often significantly lower than non-smokers. Furthermore that old person may well have escaped the dangers of smoking himself, but who knows what damage he could have done to others by smoking in front of them all his life.
Again, I don't think anyone is denying the dangers of alcohol abuse.
But the point is that it's not just their body they are poisoning.
There is still a choice to quit. It may well not be easy for everyone. And for those who cannot quit without support - they have the choice of whether or not to approach the NHS.

And I agree by the way, we may just all have to agree to differ.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nobody's saying your hubby can't smoke, just that he shouldn't inflict his smoke on others. And yes air pollution generally is an issue - another one. Alcohol abuse is an issue - another one. The fact we have a useless Govt pandering to commercial interests is an issue - another one. So, one at a time please. As I said before I don't actually mind smoke in pubs but I do think others should be protected, particularly staff. This fudge will please very few; fewer pubs serving food, fewer child-friendly pubs....

But yes, it's a ding-dong argument. I've said it before, life would be a lot easier, though a trifle duller, if you would all just concede I'm right. :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Agreed but my alcohol comment was two lines. You fail to address the other points I make re obesity rates, lifestyles etc. and the fact that some people do smoke all their lives without ill effects.
__________________

Agreed but the debate appeared to be steering towards individuals right to smoke per se, regardless of whether this was in front of others, hence my comments.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

IMO there isn't much you can say. Yes there are other factors that have significant impact on our health. But we can't address them all at once, and there is no reason why we can't currently address one but not the others.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I fail to make further comment on your line of reasoning about alcohol, because, as I've said repeatedly, nothing you can say about alcohol makes tobacco smoking any less dangerous. I'm quite happy to discuss whether we as a nation treat alcohol appropriately but that's for another thread.

As for smokers who live to a grand old age - yes, I've known a couple of them myself. But again, the fact that you can point to an anomaly does not in any way change the statistics. And until we understand why some people get away with it, I'm frankly amazed that some people want to play Russian Roulette with their lives.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I see. Well of course I do believe that smokers should continue to have the right to smoke, whilst smoking is legal, as long as it's not in front of others. I do think that it would be good if the whole thing was made illegal, but whilst it isn't, and doesn't look likely to be, I would not attack the right of a smoker to smoke.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

__________________

Of course they're not addressed - it doesn't suit their agenda does it?...:dozey:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That's a cheap shot OB. You know exactly the reasons why my argument has followed the line it has, because I have explained it repeatedly. Disagree by all means but please at least acknowledge that I'm not trying to skew the argument in favour of some agenda.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

How about instead of making snidy comments you address the debate itself?

As said above, those factors have an impact on our lifestyles, but so what? It's not relevant to this debate, it doesn't take away from the danger of smoking and above all, we cannot address them all in one fell swoop.

The whole point of this thread is to address whether or not people should be allowed to smoke in enclosed public places, because of the effects of passive smoking. Issues such as obesity and stress do not directly affect the health of others.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No, it wasn't a cheap shot. Obesity kills. Obesity is afflicted on to people by others (parents to children through bad diet and lifestyle usually). This needs tackling too. Or do you enjoy the odd convenience meal/fish supper, so that's OK and you don't mind?
__________________

See my reply to Chris. I can't be **** to reply to you anymore.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with some real stats relating to deaths caused by alchohol and deaths by smoking. The only think I could find this morning was '1 bar worker dies per week from passive smoking' and '85k people die a year from smoking related illnesses'.
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I assume we all agree that smoking in front of children isn't acceptable?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Of course it was. I have said repeatedly over the past couple of days that the affects of alcohol do not in any way detract from the affects of tobacco smoke, and what is under discussion here is whether we should clamp down on smoking tobacco. To imply that the people who are merely sticking to the subject are the ones pursuing an agenda or skewing the discussion is perverse.

If you want to start a campaign for alcohol awareness, obesity awareness, drug abuse or whatever, then please do. If you want to start threads on any or all of the above, be my guest. I expect I will fully support what you have to say. But *none* of it will in any way diminish the danger of tobacco smoke, and the only issue under discussion here is what should be done about tobacco smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Why is every life threatening illness, disease, addiction etc being thrown into the pot here?

Obesity is bad. Those that promote obesity - parents, manufacturers, caters etc - are to be derided. But what the flippin' 'eck Tucker has this got to do with smoking which impacts not just on those that enjoy it. Alcohol etc etc etc. There are lots of health issues out there. This is one of them

You lot be crazy folks. ;) :) Chill.
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And go easy on ChrisT. Scotland has the highest heart disease and crime rates in the UK. And, speaking from very recent personal experience, the worst weather (yeah, I know yesterday was the hottest Scottish October day ever, ever - but we were leaving then.)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But as I have said in a previous post smoking cannot be dealt with in isolation from other factors because they are linked. If this is not true then why is it that smoking rates among those most disadvantaged have not declined.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes it can. We work on one factor, later we work on another.

Please remember that this debate is about passive smoking anyway. And that is easy to resolve. Stop smoking in public places. Job done.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Poverty is no doubt the biggest killer. But the issue with smoking, for me, is the impact it can have on others, not on the individual partaking. It may be just one in a range of life limiting factors but it is one we know about and can relatively easily address, in terms of passive smoking. We can and should be doing something about it on that basis. Addressing poverty and disadvantage is a far biggger issue but one I'm happy to join you in fighting.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The West of Scotland in particular is very bad. In fact, Glasgow is the heart disease capital of Europe. Did you come to our great city or were you over in poncey Edinburgh? :p:

You should have dropped in for tea. :)

You can understand why things are so bad here when you see so many people queueing to buy fish and chips just to eat for their regular lunch during the week. I buy fish and chips once in a blue moon because I know what regular substance abuse (in this case cholesterol and saturated fat!) can do to my bod.

There is no doubt that this is a big factor in Glasgow's heart disease problem. There is, furthermore, no doubt that smoking is a big factor (a higher proportion of the population smokes in this part of the country than in the UK as a whole).

@Slackdad also ... you can see from the above, I'm not ignorant about the integrated nature of these problems. But I don't consider that to be a reason to do nothing about any one part of the problem. In fact, you see health awareness public information films on TV in Scotland far more than you do in England.

But as I've said before, it's a matter of degrees - the research and the statistics say that smoking is the major component of the problem, and it's therefore logical, given that it is such a big problem, that it is tackled with extreme measures. I for one am delighted that the Scottish Executive has decided not to tiptoe around this issue and will be introducing a complete blanket ban from next April. I am looking forward to being able to go to cafes (I don't get out to pubs much at the mo) with my young children and not to have to worry about which way the smoke is drifting. At last, the perverse concept of smoking and non-smoking sections will be banished forever.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Oh lucky you!

I remember once going to a Little Chef, back in the day when I was a smoker. I ate breakfast with my friends, and then went to the smoking area to have a cigarette. Which was literally the table next door, with a little separation wall (you know the type that's about 30cm higher than the table.

I cringe with the memory.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But to be honest I don't really know whether stopping smoking in pubs for instance is really going to address the issue. As I have said previously adults can choose (generally speaking) to sit, work etc. in a pub where smoking is permitted. (Also good filtration systems can minimise much of the smoke). Children, however, do not have such a choice. So while pubs are nice and smoke free parents are still puffing away at home or in the car around their children. As much as I would not support making smoking illegal, if the government was serious about addressing the ill effects then at least proposing this would mean it wasn't spineless. Or maybe Blair's waiting for Bush's signal ;).

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This is true to an extent, but the evidence from New York and Ireland has been that one in 12 smokers has already quit as a direct result of the ban. It's a good step in the right direction. Addiionally, the change in law sends out a signal that smoking is no longer socially acceptable, and in time that will filter through and hopefully help provide more smokers with the extra oomph they need to find the willpower to quit.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ultimately, if you drink alcohol you are only ruining your own body. If you smoke you're not only ruining your own, but everybody else's whether they like it or not. And that's not right.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Spent a few days in Largs, home to Scotland's best chippy, apparently. A lovely, scenic, rain-sodden place. You'll be pleased to hear Nardini's do a smoothie that lets you get all five daily fruit portions in a suingle glass.

We did visit Glasgow on a day where RTAs on the M8 summed up the city's dietary habits wonderfully. First a tanker shed its load of lard, then a lorry overturned its load of pop and crisps. :) BTW, does Irn Bru make your hair go ginger?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

yeah but the issue is deaths by passive smoking and 'passive' alcohol use. how many people are murdered or injuired annually due to booze and how many people die due to passive smoking or suffer illness because of it?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This is a problem. Someone (maybe you?) said earlier that if you disallow people smoking in pubs they may be more likely to smoke at home in front of the children. Sadly that is something we cannot address without a complete ban on smoking. Unless it was made illegal to smoke in front of children, which would surely be impossible to monitor. Unfortunately this is a difficult one to deal with. I think it's appalling when people smoke in front of their kids.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Good news about the giving up rates in New York and ireland, but what about the take-up rates. Sometimes making something more socially undesiarble only serves to increase its attractiveness to those it is specifically targeted at. I'm thinking of rebelling teenagers for instance.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ah, Largs ... many a happy summer holiday have I spent there (and in the family holiday flat over the water in Millport). I know the Nardinis of which you speak. Hopefully you weren't sat in the seat our potty-training son drenched last August. :D Why suddenly like Yoda do I talk? :erm:

I remember it well. It took me months to work out why it is when you walk past a chippy in Glasgow, the smell drifting onto the street is different than anywhere else in the UK. I think they really still do fry the chips in animal fat. :erm: And Irn Bru hasn't turned me ginger yet. :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

oh my god Clarie - you were once one of 'them'! :p:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That's a very good question, but given the highly-charged nature of the public debate in England this past week, I suspect if the take-up rate had increased, someone somewhere would have quoted the statistic by now in defence of their position.