Cable Forum - Britain outside the EU

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Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36169118)

At the ballot box where you can get 5 million votes and not return a single MP, where the majority of votes are meaningless and the government formed with 100% of the power for 35% of the vote makes changes to peoples lives for the better (chums and donors) or worse (everyone else) with impunity for 5 years and it's dismissed with a glib we can vote them out

A very good point you make. Where 37% of the electorate decides the social & economic fate of a country for a generation or more and, when it ends up in the predicated train wreck, you get the glib "well, you can always vote them out".

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

What I find quite sinister is the post truth revisionist gas-lighting with their justification of their [failed] position:

"Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels"

"Well naturally, lurking behind a lot of Europhilia is a belief that we’re somehow not up to the task of governing ourselves and we need the EU to bypass our own second rate governments"

The mainstream movement who wished to remain part of the EU never advocated for these positions yet out they trot to prop up the justification of where we have ended up. Pure sophistry.

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36169129)

You are being the sophist here by not answering the question.

It's quite simple, really: Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?

Also, on your 37% point, what would have been your attitude had the REMAIN vote won the day on 37% of the eligible population?

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169132)

Again, post truth deflection. You said:

"Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels?"

Which is it?

As to the 37% point, you are not getting the point. No referendum that changes the macro economic & social trajectory of a [G7] country should EVER be decided on such a low bar, in either direction. A supermajority allied with a minimum turnout was a must.

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36169133)

Again, post truth deflection. You said:

"Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels?"

Which is it?

<SNIP>

Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels?

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169134)

Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels?

Capitalism states the market makes the rules. And badly.

The question is how big (or small) you want the counterweight of regulation.

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169132)

It's quite simple, really: Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?

Why not? It couldn’t be any worse than the Tories or Labour.

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169136)

Why not? It couldn’t be any worse than the Tories or Labour.

Surely, the better answer to my question "Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?" would be:

No, of course not. I just want a UK government that is competent.

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Many libertarians supported Brexit, believing it would reduce governmental layers and bring power closer to the British people. They saw it as an opportunity to escape the control of Brussels’ technocracy, expecting increased autonomy and economic freedom. However, this article argues that Brexit, rather than decreasing government control, intensified it in the UK. Some libertarians supported Brexit due to a misunderstanding of the European Union’s essential nature and role.

The libertarian argument for Brexit was centred around the idea of eliminating the perceived excessive interference by the EU. Moreover, Brexit was seen as a form of secession, which is often favoured to promote a libertarian agenda. Supporters of Brexit envisioned a rejuvenated Britain, regaining sovereignty and experiencing fewer regulatory constraints. They imagined a country liberated from Brussels and Luxembourg, able to independently navigate its future, potentially leading to greater liberty and economic efficiency. However, this perspective failed to understand the EU’s function and the implications of breaking away from it.

The critique of the EU often portrays it as an overreaching superstate, taking over national sovereignty. This perspective, fuelled by the rhetoric of the EU Commission’s technocrats and the broader Brussels establishment, erroneously suggests ambitions for a European superstate – a misconception that played a role in the United Kingdom’s decision to leave the EU. This interpretation overlooks the true nature and purpose of the EU. Contrary to being an emerging superstate, the EU essentially operates as a collection of regimes designed to check excessive state power. The notion of the EU as a nascent absolute state is a misinterpretation of its real function: to regulate and balance state powers, particularly in economic matters.

The EU originates from the principle of vertical separation of power. Significantly, the EU allows for member withdrawal, underscoring its distinction from absolute states, which are characterised as indivisible. Membership in the EU involves states mutually restricting their arbitrary power – for example, of limiting international trade or controlling the movement of people. These are areas where government policies typically spill over from extensive domestic intervention. In an era where state power is more extensive than ever, the primary method for curbing such power is through a balance of power among states themselves.

The European Union’s foremost goal is to diffuse and limit power, rather than centralise it. This approach is evident in the EU’s efforts to curtail excessive state intervention in trade, capital movement, and the flow of people.

Spoiler:

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169137)

Surely, the better answer to my question "Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?" would be:

No, of course not. I just want a UK government that is competent.

It is a better question, but my answer is based on realism not dreams

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

DUP agrees deal with UK government to restore power-sharing to Northern Ireland

https://news.sky.com/story/dup-agree...eland-13059737

Good news for Northern Ireland but sovereignty purists will be waking up with a hangover this morning as the detail is unveiled. Those idealists seeking a bold, competent, swashbuckling government willing to take advantage of Britain's Brexit freedoms (whatever that means) will finally have to face up to the fact that we will now be a rule-taker from Brussels and won't be able to shape those rules as we did as an EU member. Labour and the Conservatives will follow this policy.

Have no doubt, this is indeed what it sounds like - a reduction in British sovereignty. We now have less of it than we did as an EU member as we don't have representation in Brussels to influence policies we have to adopt. However, sovereignty tick-boxers can console themselves with the argument that the country could throw this deal out at the ballot box if enough people voted for UKIP.

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36169138)

Only one thing sadder than someone who asks a loaded question, is someone who answers their own loaded question, because they lack the confidence that they may get a concurring answer…

---------- Post added at 23:58 ---------- Previous post was at 23:43 ----------

Anyhoo, interesting article from the IEA, that well-know loony left woke tree-hugging organisation*

https://iea.org.uk/why-brexit-was-a-...n-perspective/

Rather than taking the view of the EU loving IEA, we should look at the actual EU Treaty to which we subscribed, which runs contrary to what Hugh's IEA quote purported. I've emboldened the relevant passages that help make my point.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...=EN#d1e32-13-1

Quote:

CONSOLIDATED VERSION OF THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION

PREAMBLE

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF DENMARK, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF IRELAND, THE PRESIDENT OF THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC, HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF SPAIN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUKE OF LUXEMBOURG, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE PORTUGUESE REPUBLIC, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND, (1)

RESOLVED to mark a new stage in the process of European integration undertaken with the establishment of the European Communities,

DRAWING INSPIRATION from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law,

RECALLING the historic importance of the ending of the division of the European continent and the need to create firm bases for the construction of the future Europe,

CONFIRMING their attachment to the principles of liberty, democracy and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and of the rule of law,

CONFIRMING their attachment to fundamental social rights as defined in the European Social Charter signed at Turin on 18 October 1961 and in the 1989 Community Charter of the Fundamental Social Rights of Workers,

DESIRING to deepen the solidarity between their peoples while respecting their history, their culture and their traditions,

DESIRING to enhance further the democratic and efficient functioning of the institutions so as to enable them better to carry out, within a single institutional framework, the tasks entrusted to them,

RESOLVED to achieve the strengthening and the convergence of their economies and to establish an economic and monetary union including, in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty and of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, a single and stable currency,

DETERMINED to promote economic and social progress for their peoples, taking into account the principle of sustainable development and within the context of the accomplishment of the internal market and of reinforced cohesion and environmental protection, and to implement policies ensuring that advances in economic integration are accompanied by parallel progress in other fields,

RESOLVED to establish a citizenship common to nationals of their countries,

RESOLVED to implement a common foreign and security policy including the progressive framing of a common defence policy, which might lead to a common defence in accordance with the provisions of Article 42, thereby reinforcing the European identity and its independence in order to promote peace, security and progress in Europe and in the world,

RESOLVED to facilitate the free movement of persons, while ensuring the safety and security of their peoples, by establishing an area of freedom, security and justice, in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty and of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union,

RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity,

IN VIEW of further steps to be taken in order to advance European integration,

Spoiler:

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169147)

Rather than taking the view of the EU loving IEA,

I think you lost your argument before you had a chance to make it with this mis-step.

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169147)

Rather than taking the view of the EU loving IEA

https://c.tenor.com/3x63SNMKPogAAAAd/tenor.gif

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...or-hard-brexit

Quote:

Rightwing thinktank breached charity law by campaigning for hard Brexit

Institute of Economic Affairs issued with legal warning over its Plan A+ Brexit document

A prominent rightwing thinktank has been accused of “misconduct and mismanagement” and issued with a formal legal warning by the Charity Commission after using its resources to campaign for a hard Brexit.

The Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) received the formal warning from the watchdog after publishing and campaigning for its Plan A+ hard Brexit proposal document. As a charity the IEA is banned from campaigning on political issues unrelated to its stated purpose of furthering education.

The commission, which regulates the charitable sector, said the publication was a clear attempt to campaign to influence government policy. The IEA launched Plan A+ at an event last September with endorsements from prominent pro-Brexit Conservative MPs, including the former Brexit secretary David Davis and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23322122

Quote:

Brexit': IEA offers prize for UK exit plan from EU

The Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) has announced that it is holding a competition to find the best plan for a UK exit from the European Union.

The free-market think tank said it would award its Brexit Prize to whoever came up with the best blueprint for the UK after the EU, covering the country's withdrawal and post-exit repositioning.

Re: Britain outside the EU

I don't know if anyone currently commenting on this thread is aware.

If not I'll just remind you.

Brexit happened, we left the EU on the 31 January 2020 at 11:00 pm.

Just let that marinate in your head, take a deep breath and move on.

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36169168)

No one's forcing you to read or participate in this thread. If you're finding the content triggering or tedious then stop following it.