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-   -   Updated: Boris resigns as party leader (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33710650)

OLD BOY 26-07-2022 07:41
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Wealth shouldn't come into it. Sunak is a self made man and he has shown through his success that he can get results.

What should matter to people is getting the person with the clear ability to run the country successfully in good times and bad. Where they came from and how much wealth they have, by themselves, are pretty irrelevant, really.

papa smurf 26-07-2022 08:22
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36129496)
Maybe there's other reasons apart from ability? Someone who's not so wealthy? A female leader in contrast to Johnson and Starmer?

Personally, I rate Sunak far higher than Truss.
He'd be more at home in the labour party so he could tax and tax till the pips squeak.

ianch99 26-07-2022 08:35
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
I think Truss did far better last night than anyone expected. She must have prepped like mad for this. She pitched the things the (predominantly old, xenophobic & wealthy) membership want to hear. Yes, she will trash the place even more than now but I guess we do sometimes get the Leaders we deserve.

Sunak came across as snappy and petulant. Tried to peddle the aspirational, self-made man shtick but no one is buying that rubbish.

Truss it is then ..

Hugh 26-07-2022 10:55
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129501)
Wealth shouldn't come into it. Sunak is a self made man and he has shown through his success that he can get results.

What should matter to people is getting the person with the clear ability to run the country successfully in good times and bad. Where they came from and how much wealth they have, by themselves, are pretty irrelevant, really.
He paid his own way through Stroud Prep, boarding at Winchester College Private school, for his PPE at Oxford, and his MBA at Stanford, California? (and his £13,000 a month beachfront apartment whilst he was at Stanford).

Impressive…

btw, at the time he was a partner at a Hedge Fund, he was also a Director at his Father-in-law’s* investment firm Catamaran Ventures - I’m sure that had no bearing on the Hedge Fund offering him a position…

I think most people would find it easier to be "self-made" and "get results" if some else paid for them to go to Private School & Oxbridge, gave them a £100,000 interest-free loan to buy a flat in London, then married a billionaire’s daughter…

Just to be clear, I prefer Sunak over Truss (much like I’d prefer a broken arm to an amputation), but let’s not romanticise his past or diminish the advantages he has had to get where he is.

*the multi-billionaire Nagavara Murthy

papa smurf 26-07-2022 13:10
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
I started out with nothing and i've still got most of it left.

Hugh 26-07-2022 14:02
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
1 Attachment(s)
"As far as I’m aware" doing a lot of heavy lifting in that statement…

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...3&d=1658840087

Two days previously, he had attended a high-level Nato summit that focused on Russia.

Pure coincidence, I am sure…

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

I wonder if he was ambushed by coke, sorry, by cake?

Mr K 26-07-2022 17:01
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36129366)
I still have a maroon passport, as do many other people.
Stamped, yes, a reason and funds ? nope wasnt asked about either.
You might well be asked in the future.
Quote:
British tourists may need to show Spain’s border officials that they have €100 (£85) for every day they spend on holiday in the country, the Spanish Government says.

Post-Brexit regulations mean that Brits will be treated as citizens from ‘third countries’ – different to those from the EU, impacting freedoms while visiting Europe.

Spanish immigration staff may also ask Brits to prove they have a return ticket or proof of accommodation while in the country and passports will now need to be stamped.

On the Interior Ministry’s requirements for entry, tourists are told: ‘Currently, the minimum amount to be credited is €100 per person per day, with a minimum of €900 or its legal equivalent in foreign currency.’

That means that a group of five staying for a week would in theory need to prove they had access to €3,500 (£2,955) – or €7,000 (£5,910), for a fortnight’s holiday.

It comes amid growing concerns about the impact of Brexit on travel, with major tailbacks at Dover and other ports and Brits facing delays in immigration queues across Europe
https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/26/briti...pain-17070901/

Sephiroth 26-07-2022 17:14
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36129551)
You might well be asked in the future.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/26/briti...pain-17070901/
Reads like a Spanish tourism suicide note. Please add Spain to my shit list of France and Ireland governments.

Hugh 26-07-2022 17:27
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36129552)
Reads like a Spanish tourism suicide note. Please add Spain to my shit list of France and Ireland governments.
I imagine they will be as distraught as the French and Irish Governments are… ;)

Sephiroth 26-07-2022 17:32
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129554)
I imagine they will be as distraught as the French and Irish Governments are… ;)
Your imagination is only surpassed by your sarcasm.

Mr K 26-07-2022 17:42
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36129552)
Reads like a Spanish tourism suicide note. Please add Spain to my shit list of France and Ireland governments.
Yes sounds like Project Fear to me. But Oops, its all come true, well would you believe it !

Mad Max 26-07-2022 17:50
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129554)
I imagine they will be as distraught as the French and Irish Governments are… ;)
They might well be if they get no tourists from the UK. :p:

papa smurf 26-07-2022 18:19
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36129551)
You might well be asked in the future.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/26/briti...pain-17070901/
100 euro per day, that's a lot of lager, have they thought this out properly :shocked:

Hugh 26-07-2022 18:34
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36129555)
Your imagination is only surpassed by your sarcasm.
Thank you - that means a lot to me… :)

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36129551)
You might well be asked in the future.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/26/briti...pain-17070901/
"May/might be" being the operative terms - sounds like the Spanish are giving themselves a get out of jail card if they want to keep out hooligans/lowlifes…

https://www.interior.gob.es/opencms/...y-condiciones/

Quote:
Foreigners must prove, if required to do so by the officials in charge of controlling the entry of people into Spanish territory, that they have economic resources, in the amount that, as a minimum , is indicated below:

Mr K 26-07-2022 19:18
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...adership-news/
Quote:
The host of TalkTV leadership debate Kate McCann fainted during tonight's head-to-head debate and Liz Truss dashed over to help her, The Telegraph understands.

The second Conservative leadership contest between Ms Truss and Rishi Sunak in as many nights was cut off around halfway through after a loud crash was heard.

There was subsequent confirmation tonight's debate will not resume, with the hopefuls instead chatting to the studio audience of Sun newspaper readers.
She probably fell asleep through boredom. Should have got GB News to do it, they're much more professional ;)

Hugh 26-07-2022 23:44
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
The Telegraph are getting really desperate to find Johnson a new job, aren’t they?

(probably trying to save the £275k a year (approx. £2,300 per hour) they used to pay him for the ten hours a month he ‘worked’ when he threw together his weekly column…)

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www....-general-nato/

Quote:
Boris Johnson is being backed by senior Tories to be the next Secretary General of Nato when the high-profile role next becomes free.

The Prime Minister is being touted as a candidate to fill the key defence post with the incumbent Jens Stoltenberg widely expected to stand down in September next year.
https://c.tenor.com/7wL0mjEP5o0AAAAM/data-laugh.gif

Mick 27-07-2022 11:04
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 39% (-1)
CON: 32% (+3)
LDM: 12% (-1)
GRN: 8% (+1)
RFM: 4% (=)
SNP: 4% (=)

Via @YouGov, 22-22 Jul.
Changes w/ 13-14 Jul.

tweetiepooh 27-07-2022 11:11
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Much as I like Boris a position in NATO really wouldn't be a good match for him. Part of his popularity is that he is sometimes viewed as one of the lads, someone you could go to the pub with (even if you need to count you fingers afterwards). I can't see that working in NATO, the NAAFI maybe.

Damien 27-07-2022 11:51
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36129597)
Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 39% (-1)
CON: 32% (+3)
LDM: 12% (-1)
GRN: 8% (+1)
RFM: 4% (=)
SNP: 4% (=)

Via @YouGov, 22-22 Jul.
Changes w/ 13-14 Jul.
Tories will be hoping to close that gap further with Johnson gone. Maybe he wasn't dragging down the party as much as was suggested. :erm:

Mr K 27-07-2022 12:29
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36129601)
Tories will be hoping to close that gap further with Johnson gone. Maybe he wasn't dragging down the party as much as was suggested. :erm:
Remember the 'Brown Bounce' and how that ended up ? ;)
Truss will be a gift to Labour, Sunak more challenging...

---------- Post added at 12:29 ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36129599)
Much as I like Boris a position in NATO really wouldn't be a good match for him. Part of his popularity is that he is sometimes viewed as one of the lads, someone you could go to the pub with (even if you need to count you fingers afterwards). I can't see that working in NATO, the NAAFI maybe.
HIGNY was his best role. He's an entertainer. He's an excellent Upper Class Twit character. Nato errm, no.

Hugh 27-07-2022 12:33
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36129599)
Much as I like Boris a position in NATO really wouldn't be a good match for him. Part of his popularity is that he is sometimes viewed as one of the lads, someone you could go to the pub with (even if you need to count you fingers afterwards). I can't see that working in NATO, the NAAFI maybe.
Not sure if he would be popular in the NAAFI - never pays for a round, always scrounging off his mates, not a team-player, always skiving off rather than actually working.

Those sort of people aren’t very popular in the Military…

OLD BOY 27-07-2022 14:10
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36129604)
Remember the 'Brown Bounce' and how that ended up ? ;)
Truss will be a gift to Labour, Sunak more challenging...no.
I wouldn’t be so sure, Mr K. People like your good self will hate Truss as PM, but she is a Maggie Thatcher type without that condescending maternal voice she had, who won over both the right wing of the party and the centre ground, hence the huge majorities she had at each election.

Truss might just see Labour out of office for another 15 years minimum. That suits me just fine.

Mr K 27-07-2022 14:26
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129617)
I wouldn’t be so sure, Mr K. People like your good self will hate Truss as PM, but she is a Maggie Thatcher type without that condescending maternal voice she had, who won over both the right wing of the party and the centre ground, hence the huge majorities she had at each election.

Truss might just see Labour out of office for another 15 years minimum. That suits me just fine.
Ah, so you like her Thatcher clothes/impersonation ! ;) Funny impersonation being a remainer and a Liberal Democrat.

Interesting after the first debate Sunak rated more highly than Truss wit the general public. But it was the other way round with Con members (who represent 0.2% of the population). They are going to fall into the trap of choosing who they prefer rather than who the electorate prefer. Con MPs know this and also went for Sunak as their jobs depend on it !

OLD BOY 27-07-2022 15:00
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36129618)
Ah, so you like her Thatcher clothes/impersonation ! ;) Funny impersonation being a remainer and a Liberal Democrat.

Interesting after the first debate Sunak rated more highly than Truss wit the general public. But it was the other way round with Con members (who represent 0.2% of the population). They are going to fall into the trap of choosing who they prefer rather than who the electorate prefer. Con MPs know this and also went for Sunak as their jobs depend on it !
I didn’t mean that Truss is a Thatcher clone. But she does have similar no nonsense ways of looking at things.

She will not tolerate fools gladly, and you can bet your life she would win any war with the trade unions. She’s already threatened to take away some of the trade union mechanisms for disrupting the country and I have no doubt she will take this a lot further if they try taking her on.

I’m sure the grassroots Conservatives will love her, and the public will warm to her as she starts to achieve real benefits for the country.

The Left will become even more disgruntled as it is brought home to them that they do not, and never will, represent the majority views of the British public.

Quite how she will go down with the Scots, however, I’m not so sure! But she will certainly not give them a second referendum!

I am pretty sure that Truss will be our next PM.

TheDaddy 27-07-2022 16:53
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129621)
I didn’t mean that Truss is a Thatcher clone. But she does have similar no nonsense ways of looking at things.

She will not tolerate fools gladly, and you can bet your life she would win any war with the trade unions. She’s already threatened to take away some of the trade union mechanisms for disrupting the country and I have no doubt she will take this a lot further if they try taking her on.

I’m sure the grassroots Conservatives will love her, and the public will warm to her as she starts to achieve real benefits for the country.

The Left will become even more disgruntled as it is brought home to them that they do not, and never will, represent the majority views of the British public.

Quite how she will go down with the Scots, however, I’m not so sure! But she will certainly not give them a second referendum!

I am pretty sure that Truss will be our next PM.
I actually feel sorry for you, you're like one of those OAP's scammers target repeatedly and you keep falling for it, no matter what, there you are parroting the party line, btainwashed into not believing the evidence of your own eyes, they kick you and kick you like an abused puppy and no matter how cruel they are there you are, tail wagging, with boundless enthusiasm ready to be kicked again but in desperate hope of a pat on the head, meet the new master, same as the old master except maybe crueler

OLD BOY 27-07-2022 17:33
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36129631)
I actually feel sorry for you, you're like one of those OAP's scammers target repeatedly and you keep falling for it, no matter what, there you are parroting the party line, btainwashed into not believing the evidence of your own eyes, they kick you and kick you like an abused puppy and no matter how cruel they are there you are, tail wagging, with boundless enthusiasm ready to be kicked again but in desperate hope of a pat on the head, meet the new master, same as the old master except maybe crueler
It seems to me that you and some others on here are doing the kicking. Conservative governments have always delivered for me, but of course, lefties will have a different view.

At least I accept that.

TheDaddy 27-07-2022 18:09
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129634)
It seems to me that you and some others on here are doing the kicking. Conservative governments have always delivered for me, but of course, lefties will have a different view.

At least I accept that.
What have they delivered for you personally? If your not a multi millionaire, a chum or alumni from school it'll be what they've delivered for the rest of us, sod all but like the rest of us you'll end up paying for it

Hugh 27-07-2022 18:48
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129634)
It seems to me that you and some others on here are doing the kicking. Conservative governments have always delivered for me, but of course, lefties will have a different view.

At least I accept that.
You do realise your statement shows your polarised viewpoint - if someone doesn’t agree with your viewpoint, they must be lefties…

GrimUpNorth 27-07-2022 19:25
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129639)
You do realise your statement shows your polarised viewpoint - if someone doesn’t agree with your viewpoint, they must be lefties…
Sounds like your seeing the light over there on the left?

OLD BOY 27-07-2022 19:31
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129639)
You do realise your statement shows your polarised viewpoint - if someone doesn’t agree with your viewpoint, they must be lefties…
Those who constantly criticise the Conservatives no matter what generally are, Hugh. You don’t have to have a polarised viewpoint to appreciate that.

Hugh 27-07-2022 20:07
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129645)
Those who constantly criticise the Conservatives no matter what generally are, Hugh. You don’t have to have a polarised viewpoint to appreciate that.
Sephiroth has been constantly criticising Johnson and other Conservatives - is he a leftie?

There have been a number of people who are/were active Conservative supporters/members who have criticised this Government for its behaviours - that doesn’t make us lefties, just people who disagree with their actions.

You seem to label anyone who doesn’t share your views as left-wing, when others may regard them as centrist or moderate.

Mick 27-07-2022 22:00
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36129636)
What have they delivered for you personally? If your not a multi millionaire, a chum or alumni from school it'll be what they've delivered for the rest of us, sod all but like the rest of us you'll end up paying for it
You are out of order. It’s not up to you to decide what or who, someone else should be voting for, just because you’re pissed off with them. :rolleyes:

OLD BOY 27-07-2022 23:17
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129647)
Sephiroth has been constantly criticising Johnson and other Conservatives - is he a leftie?

There have been a number of people who are/were active Conservative supporters/members who have criticised this Government for its behaviours - that doesn’t make us lefties, just people who disagree with their actions.

You seem to label anyone who doesn’t share your views as left-wing, when others may regard them as centrist or moderate.
That may be your perception but it isn’t true.

I have never said Seph is a Leftie because he isn’t. Boris was a divisive figure within the party as well as outside it. One either liked him or they didn’t. But if they didn’t, that alone doesn’t make them lefties.

TheDaddy 27-07-2022 23:46
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36129654)
You are out of order. It’s not up to you to decide what or who, someone else should be voting for, just because you’re pissed off with them. :rolleyes:
My first post probably wasn't my finest moment tbf so if it's upset anyone please delete it, this one though I think is a perfectly reasonable question and it's one we should all be asking and it's exactly where our politicians have taken us, they can't be trusted with promises or what they might do and they certainly can't be trusted with what they'll do for the country, for me it's as basic as what have they done for me.

Mick 28-07-2022 06:51
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36129659)
My first post probably wasn't my finest moment tbf so if it's upset anyone please delete it, this one though I think is a perfectly reasonable question and it's one we should all be asking and it's exactly where our politicians have taken us, they can't be trusted with promises or what they might do and they certainly can't be trusted with what they'll do for the country, for me it's as basic as what have they done for me.
It was your first post, I was referring to, I’d just used your 2nd follow up post, to indicate that I’d considered you, out of order.

It’s totally reasonable to ask someone why they’d chosen to vote the way they do, but your first post crossed a line, deriding someone for voting the way they do, not on.

Damien 28-07-2022 08:24
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1552551146283323392

Quote:
Rishi Sunak pledges to protect the Green Belt if he becomes PM. Says will use the forthcoming refresh of planning laws to stop councils from requesting changes to boundaries in order to release land for development & will order planners to automatically reject any such proposals.
I wonder what the Tories think will happen if they continue to turn generations of people into renters rather than homeowners? The vote they're appealing to by preventing new homes is diminishing and the average age of a home buyer is ever increasing. I remember an article in The Spectator that said you can't expect people to be capitalists if they don't own any capital.

Meanwhile Truss is demanding police cut crime by 20% without more funding. Unless in addition to massively increasing spending on defence, and on the NHS, she is also going to give more funding to the police whilst giving out massive tax cuts.

These people aren't serious politicians.

Maggy 28-07-2022 08:26
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
I'm confused as to what the actual topic is.

OLD BOY 28-07-2022 09:04
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36129675)
I'm confused as to what the actual topic is.
I thought we were dealing with the fallout from Boris's resignation and what happens next, Maggy. Does the title need to be modified to reflect that, perhaps?

---------- Post added at 09:01 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36129674)
https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1552551146283323392



I wonder what the Tories think will happen if they continue to turn generations of people into renters rather than homeowners? The vote they're appealing to by preventing new homes is diminishing and the average age of a home buyer is ever increasing. I remember an article in The Spectator that said you can't expect people to be capitalists if they don't own any capital.
We certainly need more housebuilding, but this should not be concentrating on the south of the country. We need to bring new workplaces and housing into the more deprived areas as part of the levelling up process, with good incentives for people to move there.

---------- Post added at 09:04 ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36129674)
https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1552551146283323392





Meanwhile Truss is demanding police cut crime by 20% without more funding. Unless in addition to massively increasing spending on defence, and on the NHS, she is also going to give more funding to the police whilst giving out massive tax cuts.

These people aren't serious politicians.
What Truss is saying is that she wants the police to concentrate on solving cases involving criminals instead of the petty stuff that occupies their time now, such as disputes between individuals on the internet, for example.

There is still the bureaucracy and inefficiencies to deal with. The NHS is not the only public body with this problem.

tweetiepooh 28-07-2022 09:42
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129677)



We certainly need more housebuilding, but this should not be concentrating on the south of the country. We need to bring new workplaces and housing into the more deprived areas as part of the levelling up process, with good incentives for people to move there.
I agree here but you get the argument that people want to stay where they are. I can see this more in areas where families want to hand over to families (farms, small businesses) but we really do need to spread the load out away from the south. I had to move away from "home" for work, so what of it, surely it's part of growing up and leaving the family nest to build your own.



But then there is the issue that if work does move out from the south-east and people move with work they could end up causing inflation in the areas they move too and if care isn't taken still price "locals" out.

Sephiroth 28-07-2022 19:54
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
As I watch the Hustings event in Leeds, it's 19:50 and the questions haven't even started. There has been about 30 minutes of waffle from various senior Tories, then 10 minutes each of promotional spiel from the candidates (Truss easily came off best) and now there's a 10 minute break before any questions are to be asked.

What a shambles. I'm attending the London Hustings and they'll have to gfo through this whole shit again. Jeez.

Sephiroth 28-07-2022 22:48
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36129725)
As I watch the Hustings event in Leeds, it's 19:50 and the questions haven't even started. There has been about 30 minutes of waffle from various senior Tories, then 10 minutes each of promotional spiel from the candidates (Truss easily came off best) and now there's a 10 minute break before any questions are to be asked.

What a shambles. I'm attending the London Hustings and they'll have to gfo through this whole shit again. Jeez.
The rest of it wasn't much better. Sunak was the consummate politician with all the high level answers but little detail. Truss was the "people's candidate". She didn't actually falter and judging by audience reaction, may just have had the better of it.

papa smurf 29-07-2022 07:49
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36129731)
The rest of it wasn't much better. Sunak was the consummate politician with all the high level answers but little detail. Truss was the "people's candidate". She didn't actually falter and judging by audience reaction, may just have had the better of it.
This chap summed up Sunak accurately

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...back-latest-vn

Hugh 29-07-2022 10:33
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36129750)
This chap summed up Sunak accurately

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...back-latest-vn
Speaking of backstabbing...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44771278

Quote:
Boris Johnson has become the second senior cabinet minister to quit within 24 hours, as Prime Minister Theresa May faces a growing political crisis over her Brexit strategy.

TheDaddy 29-07-2022 10:35
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36129750)
This chap summed up Sunak accurately

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...back-latest-vn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129763)
Surely any loyalty should be to their constituents and not bozo, this is cult like behaviour and not something we should be expecting from a mainstream political party

ianch99 29-07-2022 16:01
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36129764)
Surely any loyalty should be to their constituents and not bozo, this is cult like behaviour and not something we should be expecting from a mainstream political party
In the past, when the Conservative Party was a broad church of political [conservative] opinion, you could argue the polling of such a small (membership) clique did not present a risk to the wider country and its governance.

However, in recent years since the right-wing, ERG-driven, putsch of (Brexit) dissenters, such a poll now offers a disturbing selection of non-representative individuals. The membership these individuals are pitching to also seem to have followed this same, lurch to the right, trajectory.

More disturbing in that you can vote in the election even if you are not a UK resident. All sorts of weirdos can vote for our next PM.

Tory leadership contest: Loophole 'allows non-British citizens to vote for next PM'

Quote:
The Conservative Party allows non-British citizens to vote in Tory leadership elections, thereby determining who the next prime minister will be, while those living in the UK but are not members of the party have no such say.

Members of Conservatives Abroad, the party's global network of members and supporters living overseas, can get "all the benefits of party membership, including participation in the Conservative Policy Forum, attendance at party conferences and a vote in the election of the party leader," its website says.

It adds: "Membership of Conservatives Abroad is open to all who live abroad and pledge support for the UK Conservative Party. You do not have to be a voter or a UK citizen."

OLD BOY 29-07-2022 19:13
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36129807)
In the past, when the Conservative Party was a broad church of political [conservative] opinion, you could argue the polling of such a small (membership) clique did not present a risk to the wider country and its governance.

However, in recent years since the right-wing, ERG-driven, putsch of (Brexit) dissenters, such a poll now offers a disturbing selection of non-representative individuals. The membership these individuals are pitching to also seem to have followed this same, lurch to the right, trajectory.

More disturbing in that you can vote in the election even if you are not a UK resident. All sorts of weirdos can vote for our next PM.

Tory leadership contest: Loophole 'allows non-British citizens to vote for next PM'
That is the business of the Conservative Party. They are the ones that elect their leader, not the Labour Party, who are in hock to the unrepresentative trade unions who are intent on overthrowing governments with which they disagree.

Hugh 29-07-2022 19:36
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Conservative Party membership - 200,000
Trade Union membership - 6,440,000

Which is more representative of the British public?

btw, working to get the Labour Party elected isn’t "overthrowing governments", it’s called “democracy"…

Speaking of overthrowing governments with which they disagree, how are the ERG getting on?

richard-john56 29-07-2022 19:54
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129822)
That is the business of the Conservative Party. They are the ones that elect their leader, not the Labour Party, who are in hock to the unrepresentative trade unions who are intent on overthrowing governments with which they disagree.
Wow the common working class man wants to overthrow the government.

OLD BOY 29-07-2022 20:32
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard-john56 (Post 36129825)
Wow the common working class man wants to overthrow the government.
I said the trade unions, not the average working man.

Mr K 29-07-2022 20:57
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129832)
I said the trade unions, not the average working man.
Trade Unions are comprised of the average working man/woman. They elect who lead them , and the policies they follow. Its called democracy OB. Unlike the next leader of country being decided by 0.2% of the population....

ianch99 29-07-2022 21:35
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129822)
That is the business of the Conservative Party. They are the ones that elect their leader, not the Labour Party, who are in hock to the unrepresentative trade unions who are intent on overthrowing governments with which they disagree.
Yes, that is the point .. which you missed, as always.

Pierre 29-07-2022 22:17
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129823)
Conservative Party membership - 200,000
Trade Union membership - 6,440,000

Which is more representative of the British public?
Neither.

Mick 29-07-2022 22:53
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129823)
Conservative Party membership - 200,000
Trade Union membership - 6,440,000

Which is more representative of the British public?

btw, working to get the Labour Party elected isn’t "overthrowing governments", it’s called “democracy"…

Speaking of overthrowing governments with which they disagree, how are the ERG getting on?
Totally laughable this coming from you, but let’s ask the people who wanted to thwart Brexit. Eh? :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 22:53 ---------- Previous post was at 22:45 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36129853)
Neither.
Exactly. Yet another own goal from Hugh. :dozey:

Paul 29-07-2022 23:43
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129823)
Conservative Party membership - 200,000
Trade Union membership - 6,440,000

Which is more representative of the British public?
Neither really.

Trade Unions only represent (a subset of) workers, and many of them are conservative anyway.

Hugh 30-07-2022 00:15
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
From the Daily Telegraph

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www....cies-unlawful/

Quote:
Suella Braverman bans lawyers from telling ministers their policies are unlawful

The Attorney General has banned government lawyers from telling ministers that their policies are unlawful, The Telegraph can reveal.

In the wake of the row over the Rwanda asylum plan, guidance was sent from Suella Braverman to lawyers last week stating that they should refrain from dismissing policies as unlawful and instead give a percentage chance that they may be challenged.

It is the culmination of more than a year of growing tensions, with policy advisors viewing lawyers as overly cautious. They perceive them to be getting in the way of the Government’s policy agenda instead of thinking creatively to push through ideas.

Lawyers, who are now describing it as the “U-word”, have hit back at the policy, describing it as an affront. "It calls into question our ability to hold the Government to account. What exactly is our role now?" one said. Others warned that ministers risked breaching international law and, in turn, the ministerial code.

The issue has come to a head at the Home Office. One government source said: “If we come and say we want something, they come back and say it is unlawful and we think there is a 70 per cent chance of losing. They don’t go: ‘Well, there is a 30 per cent chance a judge would find it lawful so we should go for it. There will be some who say it is unlawful because of x, y, z reasons rather than: ‘How can we make a legal argument that it is lawful’?”


---------- Post added at 00:15 ---------- Previous post was at 00:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36129853)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Conservative Party membership - 200,000
Trade Union membership - 6,440,000

Which is more representative of the British public?
Neither.
So 10% of the population isn’t more representative of the British public than 0.3% of the population, especially if "many of them are conservative anyway"?

Pierre 30-07-2022 04:45
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129862)
So 10% of the population isn’t more representative of the British public than 0.3% of the population, especially if "many of them are conservative anyway"?
Neither are representative of the British public, you know that.

At the moment you could consider me a conservative ( not always been the case) but would I join the Conservative party……….No……..or any party for that matter.

I have worked everyday (not “every day” for the pedants but you know what I mean) of my life since I was 17, and never joined a union (although I was pressured to when I was young). I don’t doubt their importance over history, but in my lifetime I’ve considered them a bit of a racket. They may have a resurgence.

Any attempt to align politically motivated groups as representative of the population is tosh. The vast majority of the population are in the centre, only think about it every 5 years and will vote for whoever is not the biggest knobhead.

Chris 30-07-2022 18:47
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36129866)
The vast majority of the population are in the centre, only think about it every 5 years and will vote for whoever is not the biggest knobhead.
British voting for dummies, page 1, chapter 1. Which far too few anoraks, activists and pundits ever seem to bother reading.

OLD BOY 30-07-2022 19:13
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Minister.html

It’s going to be Liz who gets the vote of Conservative members. A good choice, judging on how she is conducting her campaign. She’s the one who will put us on the new path to achieving the manifesto.

The general public don’t see this yet, but in the end, she will carry the Conservatives through to the next election. Fasten your seat belts!

[EXTRACT]

Tory leadership contender Liz Truss plans to evoke the spirit of Margaret Thatcher and solidify Whitehall's control of the economy if handed the keys to 10 Downing Street, it was revealed last night.

Ms Truss, who has shot into pole position as the frontrunner for the Prime Minister's hotseat, is considering the formation of a 'supergroup' of allies to lead the Treasury into the next generation.

Key allies including Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng, Brexit Opportunities minister Jacob Rees-Mogg and veteran MP John Redwood are said to be in line for formal positions under any cabinet led by Britain's third female PM.

According to sources, Ms Truss will also work to tackle 'groupthink' prevalent within the Treasury and increase the number of economic advisers working in Downing Street.

She has already set lofty targets of 2.5 per cent economic growth per year, and laid out an ambitious plan to help would-be homeowners with Bank of England measures that could allow rent payments to be used in future mortgage assessments.

A campaign insider told the Telegraph: 'Liz rightly thinks we can’t have failed, business as usual economic policy and won’t be captured by Treasury groupthink.

'She will be bold on the economy and will lower taxes, keep tight control of spending, and push through supply-side reforms that will create higher growth and more sustainable growth.'

The Left will hate this and I can hear the cries of anguish already.

GrimUpNorth 30-07-2022 21:50
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129898)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Minister.html

It’s going to be Liz who gets the vote of Conservative members. A good choice, judging on how she is conducting her campaign. She’s the one who will put us on the new path to achieving the manifesto.

The general public don’t see this yet, but in the end, she will carry the Conservatives through to the next election. Fasten your seat belts!

[EXTRACT]

Tory leadership contender Liz Truss plans to evoke the spirit of Margaret Thatcher and solidify Whitehall's control of the economy if handed the keys to 10 Downing Street, it was revealed last night.

Ms Truss, who has shot into pole position as the frontrunner for the Prime Minister's hotseat, is considering the formation of a 'supergroup' of allies to lead the Treasury into the next generation.

Key allies including Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng, Brexit Opportunities minister Jacob Rees-Mogg and veteran MP John Redwood are said to be in line for formal positions under any cabinet led by Britain's third female PM.

According to sources, Ms Truss will also work to tackle 'groupthink' prevalent within the Treasury and increase the number of economic advisers working in Downing Street.

She has already set lofty targets of 2.5 per cent economic growth per year, and laid out an ambitious plan to help would-be homeowners with Bank of England measures that could allow rent payments to be used in future mortgage assessments.

A campaign insider told the Telegraph: 'Liz rightly thinks we can’t have failed, business as usual economic policy and won’t be captured by Treasury groupthink.

'She will be bold on the economy and will lower taxes, keep tight control of spending, and push through supply-side reforms that will create higher growth and more sustainable growth.'

The Left will hate this and I can hear the cries of anguish already.
Can you explain how employing more Downing Street advisors sits with your cutting costs fetish?

Hugh 30-07-2022 22:30
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
She has already set lofty targets of 2.5 per cent economic growth per year
https://www.ey.com/en_uk/news/2022/0...em-club-report 20 Jul 2022

Quote:
UK GDP forecast to grow 3.7% in 2022 and 1% in 2023, a downgrade from May’s 4.1% and 1.9% growth expectations

2024 forecast upgraded to 2.4% growth, from 2.2% predicted in spring, as economy makes up some lost ground
Since EY forecast an average growth of 2.36% over 2022-24, it’s not clear how 2.5% is a "lofty target"?

Here’s hoping the "supply-side reforms" don’t turn into another Kansa Experiment…

Dave42 30-07-2022 22:44
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129898)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Minister.html

It’s going to be Liz who gets the vote of Conservative members. A good choice, judging on how she is conducting her campaign. She’s the one who will put us on the new path to achieving the manifesto.

The general public don’t see this yet, but in the end, she will carry the Conservatives through to the next election. Fasten your seat belts!

[EXTRACT]

Tory leadership contender Liz Truss plans to evoke the spirit of Margaret Thatcher and solidify Whitehall's control of the economy if handed the keys to 10 Downing Street, it was revealed last night.

Ms Truss, who has shot into pole position as the frontrunner for the Prime Minister's hotseat, is considering the formation of a 'supergroup' of allies to lead the Treasury into the next generation.

Key allies including Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng, Brexit Opportunities minister Jacob Rees-Mogg and veteran MP John Redwood are said to be in line for formal positions under any cabinet led by Britain's third female PM.

According to sources, Ms Truss will also work to tackle 'groupthink' prevalent within the Treasury and increase the number of economic advisers working in Downing Street.

She has already set lofty targets of 2.5 per cent economic growth per year, and laid out an ambitious plan to help would-be homeowners with Bank of England measures that could allow rent payments to be used in future mortgage assessments.

A campaign insider told the Telegraph: 'Liz rightly thinks we can’t have failed, business as usual economic policy and won’t be captured by Treasury groupthink.

'She will be bold on the economy and will lower taxes, keep tight control of spending, and push through supply-side reforms that will create higher growth and more sustainable growth.'

The Left will hate this and I can hear the cries of anguish already.
it gonna be utter carnage OB man what cuts she gonna make for her tax cuts promises it be austerity on steroids

Qtx 30-07-2022 23:30
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Get a feeling that when one of them gets in power, some sort of war is going to be on the table quite quickly.

Civil disobedience is in the air over many things including energy prices and it wouldn't surprise me if a war to distract people and turn attention away from government and unite them against a different enemy will be a new PM's first call of order

1andrew1 30-07-2022 23:51
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36129904)
Can you explain how employing more Downing Street advisors sits with your cutting costs fetish?
It will just be more borrowing to pass the problem onto future administrations.

If she can't run a tight ship on the adviser front, don't expect her to be able to run a tight ship anywhere else!

OLD BOY 31-07-2022 10:32
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129907)
https://www.ey.com/en_uk/news/2022/0...em-club-report 20 Jul 2022



Since EY forecast an average growth of 2.36% over 2022-24, it’s not clear how 2.5% is a "lofty target"?

Here’s hoping the "supply-side reforms" don’t turn into another Kansa Experiment…
Well, Hugh, I'm surprised that I am being questioned on that by you.

As you well know, the economic forecast is for 1% growth next year. 2.5% was a bigger figure than 1% when I went to school. However, Diane Abbot may want to argue with me about that (I do hope that you will agree with me, not her, on that).

Comparing this with May's target is ridiculous, by the way. We didn't have a war between Russia and Ukraine back then.

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36129908)
it gonna be utter carnage OB man what cuts she gonna make for her tax cuts promises it be austerity on steroids
The kind of cuts that do not impact on services.

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 36129911)
Get a feeling that when one of them gets in power, some sort of war is going to be on the table quite quickly.

Civil disobedience is in the air over many things including energy prices and it wouldn't surprise me if a war to distract people and turn attention away from government and unite them against a different enemy will be a new PM's first call of order
The only war that is likely is one with the hard Left. Arthur Scargill tried that once, you know.

---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36129912)
It will just be more borrowing to pass the problem onto future administrations.

If she can't run a tight ship on the adviser front, don't expect her to be able to run a tight ship anywhere else!
You misunderstand. Unfortunately, many people on the Left of politics cannot grasp that you can pay down debt by growing the economy. The well being of future generations is in much better hands with the Conservatives in power that if Labour were calling the shots. You know very well that they are the ones with the reputation of being high-spending and selling off all the family fortune to solve short-term problems.

Hugh 31-07-2022 10:36
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Comparing this with May's target is ridiculous, by the way. We didn't have a war between Russia and Ukraine back then.
Russia invaded Ukraine on the 24th February.

Also, the phrase used was ‘per year’, not ‘next year’…

However, Naidine Dorries may want to argue with me about that (I do hope that you will agree with me, not her, on that).

OLD BOY 31-07-2022 10:41
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129932)
Russia invaded Ukraine on the 24th February.

Also, the phrase used was ‘per year’, not ‘next year’…
The fuel issue was not present at that time. The 'war' in Ukraine started in 2014 if I remember correctly, with Russia's takeover of Crimea. But that was well before we were so heavily involved.

'Per year' includes 2023, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Hugh 31-07-2022 10:42
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
But is not exclusive to it, so that is why I put an average over three years…

The current conflict started in February, and sanctions were imposed at the end of February/early March.

OLD BOY 31-07-2022 10:51
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36129937)
But is not exclusive to it, so that is why I put an average over three years…

The current conflict started in February, and sanctions were imposed at the end of February/early March.
Hugh, please stop splitting hairs. You would be the first person to highlight it if she didn't reach 2.5% in 2023.

At least let's be consistent. You are also the first to point out any inconsistencies in the posts of your political opponents on CF..

GrimUpNorth 31-07-2022 12:03
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
I think most of us watching from the outside can see neither candidate really gives two hoots about the economy or anyone who's not a paid up member of the party. They will say and do whatever they need to say or do to win the vote. I don't understand some people here, they were very quick to call out what they saw as unrealistic proposals from Labour at the last GE but seem blinded to the same outlandishly stupid promises from their own party. One day someone will do a PhD on the reasons for this strange behaviour.

OLD BOY 31-07-2022 13:04
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36129946)
I think most of us watching from the outside can see neither candidate really gives two hoots about the economy or anyone who's not a paid up member of the party. They will say and do whatever they need to say or do to win the vote. I don't understand some people here, they were very quick to call out what they saw as unrealistic proposals from Labour at the last GE but seem blinded to the same outlandishly stupid promises from their own party. One day someone will do a PhD on the reasons for this strange behaviour.
Except that, contrary to what you have strongly implied in your post, Liz knows how she will pay it back.

Go down Rishi’s route and there will not be enough money to help people with their bills. Is that what you want?

Liz Truss intends to cut bills, by such measures as removing the green levy and reducing tax on petrol, which is non-inflationary because that brings prices down. It will be paid for in a number of ways, for example by using existing headroom in the economy, by growing the economy, and making the UK a more attractive offer for investors.

Sephiroth 31-07-2022 13:13
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129951)
Except that, contrary to what you have strongly implied in your post, Liz knows how she will pay it back.

Go down Rishi’s route and there will not be enough money to help people with their bills. Is that what you want?

Liz Truss intends to cut bills, by such measures as removing the green levy and reducing tax on petrol, which is non-inflationary because that brings prices down. It will be paid for in a number of ways, for example by using existing headroom in the economy, by growing the economy, and making the UK a more attractive offer for investors.
An excellent point.

1andrew1 31-07-2022 13:44
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36129946)
I think most of us watching from the outside can see neither candidate really gives two hoots about the economy or anyone who's not a paid up member of the party. They will say and do whatever they need to say or do to win the vote. I don't understand some people here, they were very quick to call out what they saw as unrealistic proposals from Labour at the last GE but seem blinded to the same outlandishly stupid promises from their own party. One day someone will do a PhD on the reasons for this strange behaviour.
Corbynomics presented by a Conservative candidate. You couldn't make it up, well not as effectively as Truss has anyway! Dorries's calculator is working hard.

GrimUpNorth 31-07-2022 13:48
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129951)
Except that, contrary to what you have strongly implied in your post, Liz knows how she will pay it back.

Go down Rishi’s route and there will not be enough money to help people with their bills. Is that what you want?

Liz Truss intends to cut bills, by such measures as removing the green levy and reducing tax on petrol, which is non-inflationary because that brings prices down. It will be paid for in a number of ways, for example by using existing headroom in the economy, by growing the economy, and making the UK a more attractive offer for investors.
And employing more advisors at Downing Street :rolleyes:.

1andrew1 31-07-2022 13:55
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
The issues an incoming PM faces include:
- Ukraine war
- Climate change crisis
- NHS
- Cost of living crisis
- Poor energy strategy
- Poor relationship and excessive red tape with our major trading bloc
- Poor UK productivity
- Scarcity of housing

I'm not sure either candidate has the wherewithal to do anything but kick these issues into the long grass.

Sephiroth 31-07-2022 14:06
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36129957)
And employing more advisors at Downing Street :rolleyes:.
As long as she takes Redwood's advice, things will go well.

---------- Post added at 14:06 ---------- Previous post was at 13:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36129958)
The issues an incoming PM faces include:
- Ukraine war
- Climate change crisis
- NHS
- Cost of living crisis
- Poor energy strategy
- Poor relationship and excessive red tape with our major trading bloc
- Poor UK productivity
- Scarcity of housing

I'm not sure either candidate has the wherewithal to do anything but kick these issues into the long grass.
The immediate issues she must/can rectify are:

- Doctors' appointments
- Medical procedure backlog, at all costs
- Passport applications
- Energy prices (VAT & Green Tax)
- Energy self-sufficiency (short term= coal & gas)
- Sensible approach to Net Zero (including Hybrid Cars)
- The Northern Ireland Protocol
- Increased farmland yields (food self sufficiency)
- Illegal migration (ECHR); get on with it not talk about it.

GrimUpNorth 31-07-2022 15:55
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Mod edit (Chris): Please do not type replies within quote tags. It makes following and responding to the the thread needlessly difficult. Separate individual paragraphs you wish to respond to with their own quote tags if necessary.

TheDaddy 31-07-2022 16:24
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129926)

The kind of cuts that do not impact on services.


You misunderstand. Unfortunately, many people on the Left of politics cannot grasp that you can pay down debt by growing the economy. The well being of future generations is in much better hands with the Conservatives in power that if Labour were calling the shots. You know very well that they are the ones with the reputation of being high-spending and selling off all the family fortune to solve short-term problems.
Are you drunk or simply wuming, the kind of cuts that don't impact services and trying to slag of labour for spending when the con party have borrowed 70% of the money this nation has owed since 1945, it's also one thing selling of the family gold it's entirely another to sell of all of it's assets to foreign countries in some respects who have zero interest in infrastructure or keeping bills down

Chris 31-07-2022 17:37
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
A general reminder that users should *not* type their replies within quote tags. It needlessly messes up later responses to your post. Just use them as designed.

GrimUpNorth 31-07-2022 18:40
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36129968)
A general reminder that users should *not* type their replies within quote tags. It needlessly messes up later responses to your post. Just use them as designed.
Sorry

OLD BOY 31-07-2022 19:37
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36129954)
Corbynomics presented by a Conservative candidate. You couldn't make it up, well not as effectively as Truss has anyway! Dorries's calculator is working hard.
I don’t think you get it, Andrew. Was it not you who claimed not to be a leftie?

There is the world of difference in approach between the two parties, but you don’t see it, do you?

---------- Post added at 19:37 ---------- Previous post was at 19:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36129965)
Are you drunk or simply wuming, the kind of cuts that don't impact services and trying to slag of labour for spending when the con party have borrowed 70% of the money this nation has owed since 1945, it's also one thing selling of the family gold it's entirely another to sell of all of it's assets to foreign countries in some respects who have zero interest in infrastructure or keeping bills down
Not all departments of the Civil Service are productive or needed, TheDaddy. It’s far too bureaucratic and badly needs pruning.

You do understand why we had to borrow that money, don’t you? If not, never mind.

It was Gordon Brown who sold off all our gold reserves.

1andrew1 31-07-2022 21:33
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129974)
I don’t think you get it, Andrew. Was it not you who claimed not to be a leftie?

There is the world of difference in approach between the two parties, but you don’t see it, do you?
If you've got some facts to suppport your opinon, I'm all ears. But the two candidates for the role of PM couldn't fill a fag packet with their calculations.

---------- Post added at 21:33 ---------- Previous post was at 21:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129974)
Not all departments of the Civil Service are productive or needed, TheDaddy. It’s far too bureaucratic and badly needs pruning.

You do understand why we had to borrow that money, don’t you? If not, never mind.

It was Gordon Brown who sold off all our gold reserves.
After 12 years of Conservative governments, if any pruning was needed of the civil service, it would have happened by now. Unless you think that Cameron, May and Johnson were in fact all profligate lefties in cahoots with the civil service.

And, no one, and that includes Gordon Brown, has ever sold off all our gold reserves. I don't think you get it, Old Boy.

OLD BOY 31-07-2022 23:15
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36129995)
If you've got some facts to suppport your opinon, I'm all ears. But the two candidates for the role of PM couldn't fill a fag packet with their calculations.

---------- Post added at 21:33 ---------- Previous post was at 21:23 ----------


After 12 years of Conservative governments, if any pruning was needed of the civil service, it would have happened by now. Unless you think that Cameron, May and Johnson were in fact all profligate lefties in cahoots with the civil service.

And, no one, and that includes Gordon Brown, has ever sold off all our gold reserves. I don't think you get it, Old Boy.
He sold half our gold reserves, which was nothing short of economic mismanagement.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-reserves.html

1andrew1 01-08-2022 01:03
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36130004)
He sold half our gold reserves, which was nothing short of economic mismanagement.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-reserves.html
I see that you have not challenged my significant point that after 12 years of Conservative governments, if any pruning was needed of the civil service, it would have happened by now. Great to reach agreement with you on that point.

We're also both getting closer on the gold reserves as you've moved on from your original statement that Gordon Brown sold all our gold reserves, so that's another positive development. ;)

Conservatives tell me the Daily Mail is more of a comfort blanket for them which tells them what they want to hear. Here's another view as you seem to like the tabloids. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d...s-gold-5614853

I found this FT article informative, hope you enjoy it too, extracts below

Quote:
The continued run of the gold price is a global investment sensation. Recently it broke the $1,500 an ounce barrier for the first time, 30 per cent higher than a year ago. Surely this lays bare the extraordinary foolishness of Gordon Brown’s announcement, 12 years ago this week, that the UK Treasury would sell off some of Britain’s gold holdings?

Actually, no. On this one occasion, Mr Brown’s decision was the right one. Let speculators go gambling on a shiny metal, if they want to. For most governments in rich countries, holding gold remains a largely pointless activity.

With hindsight, of course, Mr Brown could have gained a better price by waiting. At current rates, the $3.5bn the UK received selling bullion between 1999 and 2002 would have been closer to $19bn. The difference at current exchange rates, by the way, would be enough to cover a little over three weeks of the UK’s expected public deficit for the fiscal year 2010-2011 – not negligible, but hardly pivotal.
has gold at all.

In common with most rich nations, the function of British foreign exchange reserves is not for the government to manage wealth on behalf of the country. British citizens do that themselves. The UK does not have a sovereign wealth fund that aims to maximise returns, and nor should it. It is not a big net oil and gas exporter such as Norway – UK net foreign exchange reserves are about $40bn, equivalent to 2 per cent of nominal gross domestic product, while Norway’s sovereign fund has $525bn, equivalent to almost 140 per cent of its GDP.

Nor does the UK pile up foreign assets by persistently selling its own currency to manipulate the exchange rate, as does China. It is notable that the much-vaunted official purchases of gold over the past year are mainly by countries such as China and Russia – and, to a lesser extent, Mexico – with big excess reserves.

UK reserves are there mainly for precautionary reasons – to intervene in currency markets to stop a run on sterling or to pursue monetary policy objectives. Yet gold is badly suited for this task because, despite recent interest from private investors, a large proportion of global above-ground stocks – 18 per cent in 2010 – is still held by governments.
https://www.ft.com/content/5788dbac-...b-00144feabdc0

OLD BOY 01-08-2022 08:02
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36129957)
And employing more advisors at Downing Street :rolleyes:.
She will also cut back the Civil Service.

---------- Post added at 08:02 ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36130012)
I see that you have not challenged my significant point that after 12 years of Conservative governments, if any pruning was needed of the civil service, it would have happened by now. Great to reach agreement with you on that point.

We're also both getting closer on the gold reserves as you've moved on from your original statement that Gordon Brown sold all our gold reserves, so that's another positive development. ;)

Conservatives tell me the Daily Mail is more of a comfort blanket for them which tells them what they want to hear. Here's another view as you seem to like the tabloids. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d...s-gold-5614853

I found this FT article informative, hope you enjoy it too, extracts below


https://www.ft.com/content/5788dbac-...b-00144feabdc0
The gold was held as balances. Brown sold it off and spent it on day to day stuff. Had he not done that, the financial crash would not have had such an impact.

GrimUpNorth 01-08-2022 08:40
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36130018)
She will also cut back the Civil Service.

---------- Post added at 08:02 ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 ----------



The gold was held as balances. Brown sold it off and spent it on day to day stuff. Had he not done that, the financial crash would not have had such an impact.
So Liz is going to find bits of the Civil Service to cut that have been missed in the last 12 years? Shows the Conservatives were pretty inept when it came to tightening their belts during austerity doesn't it? Thanks for pointing that out to us ;).

Also, if she didn't surround herself with people to tell her what she wants to hear she could save even more money. I wonder how many adult care staff you could get for the salary of a typical Downing Street advisor?

I remember reading an article that argued if Geoffrey Howe had sold the gold and purchased US T-Bonds when the Conservatives came to power in 1979 he would have made the country a significant amount of money compared to keeping the gold (his inaction 'cost' us more than Gordon Brown did), but you probably knew that already and anyway hindsight is a wonderful thing when pointing out mistakes you think the other team made in politics.

1andrew1 01-08-2022 10:31
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36130018)
The gold was held as balances. Brown sold it off and spent it on day to day stuff. Had he not done that, the financial crash would not have had such an impact.
I'm not sure you've understood the linked articles. He exchanged the gold for other financial assets with higher yields and less risk. If any government had wished to reverse this decision it could simply buy more gold.

The criticism of Gordon Brown was not so much that he sold gold but he sold it at the bottom of the price cycle. But that's a Captain Hindsight criticism.

This has no relevance to the impact of the Global Financial Crisis.

OLD BOY 01-08-2022 11:35
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36130033)
I'm not sure you've understood the linked articles. He exchanged the gold for other financial assets with higher yields and less risk. If any government had wished to reverse this decision it could simply buy more gold.

The criticism of Gordon Brown was not so much that he sold gold but he sold it at the bottom of the price cycle. But that's a Captain Hindsight criticism.

This has no relevance to the impact of the Global Financial Crisis.
I stand corrected, Andrew. You are right, the proceeds were reinvested.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that this sell-off cost us something in the order of £7 billion. Not the brightest of moves.

1andrew1 01-08-2022 12:05
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36130038)
I stand corrected, Andrew. You are right, the proceeds were reinvested.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that this sell-off cost us something in the order of £7 billion. Not the brightest of moves.
Appreciate your acknowledgement.

The £7bn is a highly dubious figure pedalled by the Daily Telegraph. The Sunday Times puts it at £2bn and that paper was no fan of Brown. This needs to be offset by the longer-term financial returns of the investments that replaced gold.

I think the idea was a good one but Brown was rightly criticised for announcing it in advance, thus impacting negatively on gold prices. But no one apart from a Captain Hindsight knew that gold was in a trough at a time and would recover and no one has sought to buy more gold, thus vindicating the move.

Brown's legacy is independence for the Bank of England and that has stood the test of time.

OLD BOY 01-08-2022 16:19
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36130047)
Appreciate your acknowledgement.

The £7bn is a highly dubious figure pedalled by the Daily Telegraph. The Sunday Times puts it at £2bn and that paper was no fan of Brown. This needs to be offset by the longer-term financial returns of the investments that replaced gold.

I think the idea was a good one but Brown was rightly criticised for announcing it in advance, thus impacting negatively on gold prices. But no one apart from a Captain Hindsight knew that gold was in a trough at a time and would recover and no one has sought to buy more gold, thus vindicating the move.

Brown's legacy is independence for the Bank of England and that has stood the test of time.
Well with that last bit, I agree.

---------- Post added at 16:19 ---------- Previous post was at 16:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36130047)

The £7bn is a highly dubious figure pedalled by the Daily Telegraph. The Sunday Times puts it at £2bn and that paper was no fan of Brown.

You can’t keep denigrating articles in the Telegraph just because they were printed in that newspaper, Andrew.

This one is from The Guardian, that says the same thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...my-gordonbrown

I note, however, there was later a re-estimate that it eventually came to £4.7bn. So I guess we can split the difference!

TheDaddy 02-08-2022 00:44
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36129974)


Not all departments of the Civil Service are productive or needed, TheDaddy. It’s far too bureaucratic and badly needs pruning.

You do understand why we had to borrow that money, don’t you? If not, never mind.

It was Gordon Brown who sold off all our gold reserves.
Yes he sold off some of the gold but who sold off everything else, who sold of the nations assets to their chums at knock down prices, who never invested the money from selling of the housing in new affordable housing meaning it costs fortunes in housing benefit now, they are no more the party of fiscal responsibility than they are business or law and order.

And the kind of cuts the brains truss is demanding aren't pruning, they're decimating already overstretched services

---------- Post added at 00:44 ---------- Previous post was at 00:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36130062)
Well with that last bit, I agree.

---------- Post added at 16:19 ---------- Previous post was at 16:11 ----------



You can’t keep denigrating articles in the Telegraph just because they were printed in that newspaper, Andrew.

This one is from The Guardian, that says the same thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...my-gordonbrown

I note, however, there was later a re-estimate that it eventually came to £4.7bn. So I guess we can split the difference!
Unbelievable, 4.7 billion and not one word from you about test and trace or the vip lane for ppe, your not interested in anything that isn't political point scoring, it's pathetic and a complete waste of time

OLD BOY 02-08-2022 08:22
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36130092)
Unbelievable, 4.7 billion and not one word from you about test and trace or the vip lane for ppe, your not interested in anything that isn't political point scoring, it's pathetic and a complete waste of time
What is unbelievable is that you take absolutely no account of the fact that this was an emergency and there simply was no time to go through standard tendering processes. The spin the Left is putting on that PPE issue is truly outrageous.

mrmistoffelees 02-08-2022 08:53
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36130097)
What is unbelievable is that you take absolutely no account of the fact that this was an emergency and there simply was no time to go through standard tendering processes. The spin the Left is putting on that PPE issue is truly outrageous.
The government were responsible in part for creating the emergency. Had they heeded the warnings they could have followed an accelerated tendering process with some of the required steps. they could have also got in place a fit for purpose test & trace system.

The UK government led by Boris, had like much of the western world had two months 'head start' over the APAC region. But, just because most of the western world failed to act, that doesn't excuse or absolve Boris of the route he took.

But as we now know, they didn't they dilly dallied and ignored facts. Their actions wholly epitomised by Boris wandering round a ward with Covid patients proudly (and ignorantly) shaking hands to make some sort of point.

Damien 02-08-2022 12:26
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Liz Truss has backtracked on her plan to pay civil servants outside of London less: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62390016

Quote:
Liz Truss has backtracked on her plan to link public sector pay to local living costs.

The Conservative leadership candidate had said she wanted to introduce regional pay boards in a bid to save a potential £8.8bn.

However, there was a backlash to the policy from several senior Tories.
Tories outside of London clearly concerned how a paycut (or small pay rises) in the North would be perceived by voters.

mrmistoffelees 02-08-2022 12:29
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36130110)
Liz Truss has backtracked on her plan to pay civil servants outside of London less: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62390016



Tories outside of London clearly concerned how a paycut (or small pay rises) in the North would be perceived by voters.
Poundshop Thatcher

1andrew1 02-08-2022 12:41
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36130110)
Liz Truss has backtracked on her plan to pay civil servants outside of London less: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62390016


Tories outside of London clearly concerned how a paycut (or small pay rises) in the North would be perceived by voters.
Think its actual savings were minimal as civil service wage is £9bn.
In the face of evidence, her plan is falling apart. But I doubt that will prevent her being PM.

TheDaddy 02-08-2022 12:50
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36130097)
What is unbelievable is that you take absolutely no account of the fact that this was an emergency and there simply was no time to go through standard tendering processes. The spin the Left is putting on that PPE issue is truly outrageous.
You bang on about 4.7 billion and don't utter a single word about the 36 billion for the world class test and trace system except to defend the chumocracy that made of like bandits, this country is going down the toilet with shenanigans more akin to a third world junta and all you want to do is spread near enough 20 year old misinformation in the hope of continuing the farce for five more years

---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36130114)
Think its actual savings were minimal as civil service wage is £9bn.
In the face of evidence, her plan is falling apart. But I doubt that will prevent her being PM.
In the face of evidence she will fall apart because there is no real substance to her, a poundshop thatcher, I'd want change from that

joglynne 02-08-2022 13:05
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36130110)
Liz Truss has backtracked on her plan to pay civil servants outside of London less: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62390016
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36130114)
Think its actual savings were minimal as civil service wage is £9bn.Tories outside of London clearly concerned how a paycut (or small pay rises) in the North would be perceived by voters.
In the face of evidence, her plan is falling apart. But I doubt that will prevent her being PM.
Just as a point of interest ..... For years London Weighting has ensured that several sectors of employees within inner and outer London have recieved a higher rate of pay than those outside of London doing exactly the same jobs.
Quote:
London weighting is an allowance paid to certain civil servants, teachers, airline employees, PhD students, police and security officers in and around London, the capital of England. It is designed to help these workers with the cost of living in Greater London, which is higher than that of the rest of the UK.[1] Its purpose is to encourage key workers to stay in Greater London.

London weighting was introduced for civil servants in 1920 and was set by the London Pay Board. However, since 1974, the Greater London Council, and later the Mayor of London, in partnership with central government, have been responsible for setting it. In 2002, teachers from across South East England went on strike to try to force London weighting to be raised. In many professions, such as teaching, a different level of weighting is applied to Inner London and Outer London.[2][3] In addition, many employers use different pay grades for Greater London as opposed to a fixed allowance, and some groups – the police, for example – have both a London weighting and a London allowance.

Since the abolition of the Pay Board, no organisation has been responsible for setting London weighting. The GLA carried out an investigation into the issue but did not propose a new figure. Currently,[when?] the amounts paid by employers as London weighting, or London allowance, or in some cases both, vary greatly. Further information is available from pay analysts such as the Labour Research Department.

London weighting is an allowance paid to certain civil servants, teachers, airline employees, PhD students, police and security officers in and around London, the capital of England. It is designed to help these workers with the cost of living in Greater London, which is higher than that of the rest of the UK.[1] Its purpose is to encourage key workers to stay in Greater London.

London weighting was introduced for civil servants in 1920 and was set by the London Pay Board. However, since 1974, the Greater London Council, and later the Mayor of London, in partnership with central government, have been responsible for setting it. In 2002, teachers from across South East England went on strike to try to force London weighting to be raised. In many professions, such as teaching, a different level of weighting is applied to Inner London and Outer London.[2][3] In addition, many employers use different pay grades for Greater London as opposed to a fixed allowance, and some groups – the police, for example – have both a London weighting and a London allowance.

Since the abolition of the Pay Board, no organisation has been responsible for setting London weighting. The GLA carried out an investigation into the issue but did not propose a new figure. Currently,[when?] the amounts paid by employers as London weighting, or London allowance, or in some cases both, vary greatly. Further information is available from pay analysts such as the Labour Research Department.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_weighting

Damien 02-08-2022 13:06
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
She'll be fine in the Tory Leadership race. Saying you'll get massive tax cuts without any spending cuts is what they want to hear. It'll fall apart though when it comes to implementation and policy and since she'll be PM she actually has to act on it soon.

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 13:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by joglynne (Post 36130119)
Just as a point of interest ..... For years London Weighting has ensured that several sectors of employees within inner and outer London have recieved a higher rate of pay than those outside of London doing exactly the same jobs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_weighting
I believe this would be outside of the London weighting so the same role paid less as a base salary.

joglynne 02-08-2022 13:20
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36130120)
She'll be fine in the Tory Leadership race. Saying you'll get massive tax cuts without any spending cuts is what they want to hear. It'll fall apart though when it comes to implementation and policy and since she'll be PM she actually has to act on it soon.
---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 13:05 ----------
I believe this would be outside of the London weighting so the same role paid less as a base salary.
I agree. However an even bigger tilt in the balance between wages being paid between the north and south of England makes those of us living in the north, which have been acknowledged as allready needing leveling up, feel as though we are indeed being viewed as second class citizens.

OLD BOY 02-08-2022 14:06
Re: Updated: Boris resigns as party leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36130110)
Liz Truss has backtracked on her plan to pay civil servants outside of London less: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62390016



Tories outside of London clearly concerned how a paycut (or small pay rises) in the North would be perceived by voters.
The principle is sound. That’s why you don’t get London Weighting outside of London.

We all know that shopping is cheaper in some areas than others, so it makes sense that wages reflect that.

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 14:03 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36130114)
Think its actual savings were minimal as civil service wage is £9bn.
In the face of evidence, her plan is falling apart. But I doubt that will prevent her being PM.
In other words, she listened to the reaction and decided to heed what people were saying. That’s good, isn’t it?

---------- Post added at 14:06 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by joglynne (Post 36130119)
Just as a point of interest ..... For years London Weighting has ensured that several sectors of employees within inner and outer London have recieved a higher rate of pay than those outside of London doing exactly the same jobs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_weighting
Well, exactly. It is far more expensive to live and work in London.


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