Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Heard Johnson today claim that vaccines were approved quicker due to Brexit. I can understand why he is seeking some tangible benefits of Brexit. A remind that the facts don't back him up, courtesy of the fact-checkers at Full Fact.
Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And a reminder that there is more to the EU than its regulations. A number of EU countries were pursuing independent vaccine procurement before the EU scheme got up and running. All of them agreed to halt their independent efforts in order to join the EU scheme. None of them had to, but at the level of the Council of Ministers, much is achieved by consensus and there is always a very high degree of political pressure used in pursuit of it.

It is highly unlikely that the UK would have been politically able to pursue an independent vaccine procurement policy had we still been in the EU at that time, regardless of the letter of the law.

That said, none of this is surprising to me. The political reach of the EU is one of the things us real long-term Eurosceptics warned about for decades, while even now it’s something many hardline remainers simply can’t, or won’t, see.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We're out of the EU. There is no such thing as 'remainer'.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Pretty sure you know exactly what I mean. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He does. But I refer to those still grasping at any slight opportunity to get back in to the corrupted EU, the Alastair Campbell’s, Lord Adonis, Michael Heseltine… as Remainiacs.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think that type of terminology is less of a helpful naming convention and more of a phrase that smacks of belittlement. There were plenty of similar phrases from both sides thrown about in 2016; it's time to move on.

I would suggest the term rejoiners is more appropriate and constructive.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hardly.

There are plenty of remainers (i.e. people who voted remain and still wish we had remained) who nevertheless do not think we should now rejoin. I’m not going to start calling everyone who voted remain in 2016 a rejoiner because they are by no means the same set of people, though doubtless some of them are.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm suggesting that instead of labelling someone who wants to join a remainiac, they are called a rejoiner. I'm not suggesting everyone who voted remain is called a rejoiner as many or even most are not.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So 'people' then?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A lot of Remainers would still vote to Remain if given the chance but also don't think it's worth the effort nor the toxicity it would inject back into British politics. It's actually pretty healthy that the Brexit divide has become less important as time has gone on, there was a fear British politics would split along those lines.

The actual number of people who think it is worth the effort and want to pursue is a small minority of hardcore activists who are doing it - in part - because they've carved out a niche for themselves around that identity. They're a bit weird and come out with essentially fan fiction on how it'll happen when writing on Twitter.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wear that shame

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Got any links? I could do with a laugh …

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't actually follow any of them so only see them when retweeted into my feed by people mocking them but this guy claims to live in France: https://twitter.com/archer_rs

I am not sure if it's a troll account because of the stock picture and this line in his bio:

Which seems almost too perfectly 'remainer'.

This is his latest work of pure art:

Again either a brilliant troll or someone who has lost connection with reality but the people who follow seem to take it seriously.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I've never taken him seriously but he is good.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I can't tell. You think it's a parody account, I mean look at this line:


It's almost too perfect. A reasonably expensive Châteauneuf-du-Pape but from 2019? It's too well crafted. But then he seems to spend most of the time retweeting negative news about Brexit....

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh, he's 100% remainer. Always has been. As to the rest....

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Anyone would think there was an election round the corner!
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-no...ports-12531285

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sets an interesting precedent that devolved governments that ignore/break international treaties, independent of Westminster. There will be considerable interest in Cardiff and Edinburgh right now I think!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's all kinds of dangerous, including that potential split between civil servants and politicians.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Quite the opposite in Scotland I think. Remember the DUP’s endgame is to vandalise a process that it believes undermines the province’s place within the UK. In Edinburgh, the SNP is interested in looking like a nation-state government in waiting and prefers to try to look like a good international citizen. Generally this means they like showing up at international events at taxpayers’ expense even when they have no business being there. But it does also mean they prefer to paint Westminster as reckless and themselves as responsible international citizens. It’s very unlikely they would seek to do anything that could be said to breach international law.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good point re not breaching international law.

I doubt the SNP are experiencing many difficulties in painting Westminster as reckless right now. Johnson, Cummings, Carrie, et al have done that for them!

---------- Post added at 11:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 ----------

More NI developments. Looking more like "Get Brexit wrong" than "Get Brexit done"
https://news.sky.com/story/paul-giva...esign-12531664

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Unionists are playing a dangerous game here. If they keep looking like they’re the ones collapsing power sharing it will in time increase interest in different solutions to a so far intractable problem. Among those possible solutions is a border poll (that said, Northern Ireland within the Republic would inevitably continue to operate under a similar devolved, power-sharing arrangement as today).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They probably chose the worst day UK-wise to announce this as GB will be focused on energy prices.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Andrew. Just for you! Enjoy.

https://youtu.be/BbXDeETm-zA

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ha ha. Thanks. That one seems to get circulated every few years. Still a goodie. :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think this makes for uncomfortable reading whichever way you went in the referendum.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60308494

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nothing we didn't already know, Andrew.

The fruits of Brexit will take a little time to be appreciated - if you expected a major change within two years of leaving, you would have been wildly optimistic.

The initial period, inevitably, must be spent building back to where we were, which means rollover trade deals, implementing all the new arrangements for trade, etc.

Once that is in place, we can start building on that and taking advantage of new opportunities.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If you read the article, and the tales of businesses trying to export to the EU, you will hear a somewhat different story.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Utter fantasy

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just read it . . . "tales of businesses trying to export to the EU" that Andrew alludes to is just one business:

The rest is just a report by the 'parliament's spending watchdog, the Public Accounts Committee (PAC)' . . repeating ad infinitum what we already know :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I advised Old Boy to read the article and the tales of businesses trying to export to the EU. ;)

Good to see you acknowledge the increased costs and delays. We need to improve matters as more checks are coming up in the summer.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Same applies, businesses still moaning about stuff they've been moaning about for ages, nothing new :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think an independent enquiry like this one carries quite a bit of weight to it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

An independent enquiry that's taken months - if not years - to reach the same findings as everone else has know for years?

Stop trying to sidestep the fact it's old news

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I still say remainers, because other words would get me a ban.


They ain't worth a ban.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's making the front pages of news websites which suggests to me it's news.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I read the article, thanks. It changes nothing. We have a wider world out there, the EU is not the be all and end all.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Thanks for the valuable insight :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Negative to the end, eh, Ianch?

Have patience…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The end? No, this is just the beginning :)

I will be here to remind the fully signed up members of the Church of Brexit of their delusion and the damage done to this country, it's reputation and it's citizens.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Can't you find employment in the EU then?

Sell up, move out, go and actually belong to the EU you seem to admire?

Surely that must be a better option than remaining here and suffering the hardships Brexit has caused you ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think you win the prize, this is priceless. You do realise we can no longer live & work abroad in the EU without becoming a resident don't you? :dunce:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's not much of a loyalty bonus is it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There's certainly a lot of work to be done on the interface with the EU and to resolve the NI situation. I hope Johnson starts to engage with business on these matters and act on their input.

I'm also curious as to what Rees-Mogg does in his new role, termed by one wag as the Minister without Portfolio. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

tbf, he’s already got his Brexit Opportunity- his new role… :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We took it as read that you’d love to reside in the EU. You’re always moaning on about this country.

They still have lots of lovely Covid restrictions for your delectation to boot! It’s a no-brainer for someone like you!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm quite pleased he has been given it - if he's so confident of the opportunities then let's see them! However, I suspect it will only be a temporary role, lasting no more than six-months given Johnson's lack of electoral popularity and increasing waiting lists, inflation and fuel prices.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Now, that’s funny! A complete conflation of the facts, if ever I saw such a thing!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ah bless ..

I am "moaning" about the corrupt Vote Leave cabal who groomed and deceived enough people to get this grubby little project over the line. The consequences of which will be increasing revealed as the fog of Covid dissipates.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The EU nations all have different approaches. Denmark and Sweden are leading Europe in dismantling their Covid restrictions.
https://www.euronews.com/2022/02/09/...t-restrictions

---------- Post added at 15:29 ---------- Previous post was at 15:27 ----------

Which of those are wrong?

1. "be a temporary role, lasting no more than six-months given Johnson's lack of electoral popularity" Labour remains ahead in the polls and many commentators including Chris on this forum expect him gone in the Summer which will result in a cabinet reshuffle.

2. "increasing waiting lists" https://www.ft.com/content/a3413758-...3-4384f4ca6d11

3. "inflation" https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/09/brit...gy-crisis.html

4. "Fuel prices." Cap up by 54% this month with Martin Lewis today suggesting a further 20% increase in October
See https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ne...price-cap-and/


I welcome your evidence-based repudiation of my statement.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Prices will continue to go up indefinitely, too many people, too few resources (and trees) ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And the 7 million quid he's trousered, it'll take us little people years and years to reap the benefits but not him and his chums, who saw it as an opportunity to make super normal returns , makes me wonder why people just accepted that someone like him was on their side and had their best interests at heart

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

1) So we could veto many of their silly rule suggestions (that we don't need to veto now because we're out)

2) So many of their vastly experienced work force could come here to work (instead of those experienced people taking a well paid job in on their own country)

3) So we could give them money (which they bung back to us to make them look good)

4) So we can sell them raw products which their manufacturing base can turn into finished products and sell back to us (we need to step up our own industries on this one)


Glad to be of help :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We've generally done a great job on rolling-over trade deals.

But exports to Europe have suffered and costs have risen more than they needed to, making us worse off.

And asylum-seekers continue to cross the channel at their peril in large numbers. The deterrent that they will be sent back to the EU has now been removed.

We need to resolve the NI dispute and make EU trade as frictionless as possible as such costs will only be passed onto us again through higher prices.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A guy who supplies me with Sodium Percarbonate via ebay, recently put his prices up to £99 per kg. It was usually around £6 per kg.

I asked why, and he said he didn't want to wipe out his ebay page as it took him ages to get it right, and he has many returning customers, so he just upped the price to that stupid level to warn off buyers.

"Once the paperwork hassle at Dover settles down, I'll be able to import at the normal price. But it's too much hassle at the moment".

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I suspect he may lose a few customers on that particular journey.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's a really common practice to temporarily suspend sales. And if anyone does order at the higher price, you can afford to get the product from a non-optimal source.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

STILL moaning about the conduct of the referendum! Well, bless you, too. :D

---------- Post added at 20:03 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

1. The EU nations all have different approaches. Denmark and Sweden are leading Europe in dismantling their Covid restrictions.

We are still ahead though and looking forward to all remaining restrictions to be lifted within a couple of weeks or so.

2. Which of those are wrong?

"be a temporary role, lasting no more than six-months given Johnson's lack of electoral popularity" Labour remains ahead in the polls and many commentators including Chris on this forum expect him gone in the Summer which will result in a cabinet reshuffle.

“increasing waiting lists" https://www.ft.com/content/a3413758-...3-4384f4ca6d11

“I inflation" https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/09/brit...gy-crisis.html

"Fuel prices." Cap up by 54% this month with Martin Lewis today suggesting a further 20% increase in October
See https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ne...price-cap-and/

I welcome your evidence-based repudiation of my statement.

First point. BJ’s unpopularity is entirely due to Dominic Cummings’ scurrilous allegations which we fondly refer to as ‘Partygate’. I agree that if those allegations are upheld by the police or the expanded Sue Gray report, he is probably toast, but if not, as seems pretty likely since most of these ‘parties’ were not attended by the PM, and were not arranged by him, then his popularity will begin to be restored. This will probably go on to be the biggest non-story ever.

I suspect the ultimate verdict will be that these were work events or breaks between work events. You know, like the one Sir Keir attended when caught with his beer. The police have already decided to take no action on that, so I think this gives a clear indication of where the partygate allegations will end up.

Second point Labour’s lead in the polls is directly related to Partygate. A General Election is still a way off, and it is most unlikely that the electorate will vote Labour back in again. You only need to listen to what the voters are saying about their opinion of Starmer’s Labour Party to know that.

Third point Waiting lists are as high as they are owing to a combination of Labour’s 2008 recession which forced us into austerity and the impact of the pandemic. Sajid Javid now has a plan to tackle this, but it will take time.

Fourth point Inflation is the result of global oil prices and the impact of Covid restrictions coming to an end.

Fifth point You know very well that the rest of the world is also impacted by world oil prices, so I’m not sure what your point is, particularly as Labour would have increased taxes on petrol and diesel.

---------- Post added at 20:09 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------

These are short-term problems, not long-term problems. Your mistake is that you think none of this can be resolved. They can be, but not in the space of less than 18 months.

Glad you’ve acknowledged the progress on trade deals. Expect much more over the coming years.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

More British exceptionalism, Denmark has lifted most of its already.
You wish. Labour's lead in the polls is directly related to Johnson. Ditch him and the Conservative Party will poll better. Partygate has been an eye-opener for those who still thought him good fun. His decline in popularity has been due to many things including the PPE scandals, Matt Hancock, and the financing of No 10's redecoration. The fact that Sue Gray referred evidence to the Metropolitan Police tells most people where things are going to end up.
It does not make you popular if these rise especially if you increase taxes and state this is to bring them down.
(You obviously misunderstand how global financial crises occur and whether austerity is a choice or not but that's off topic.)
And the currency devaluing by 20% after the Brexit vote pushing up the price of imports. Again, people are less focused on the cause, it doesn't make you popular if it rises.

Again, people are less focused on the cause, the point is that it doesn't make you popular if it rises.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

'No case for rejoining' Keir Starmer puts final nail in Brexit coffin as 'no going back'

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer made it clear Britain had left the European Union and there were no good reasons to rejoin.


Well that's that then now we can all move on and embrace the future.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-Trade-Deal-VN

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well he has to offer that fig leaf to the now “Blue wall”. Considering it is a massive “ U-Turn” on his previous position (which he isn’t being called out on) Boris should be able to make some capital on that tomorrow, if his team is on point.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Changing your stance on Brexit seems to be a common theme to get what you want. Just ask Liz Truss, Bojo and Theresa May for confirmation.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Parliament is in recess. No PMQs tomorrow.

Typically parties don't get too much flack for changing their position after losing an election on it. They explain they've listened to the result and moved on.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What?

Noone has brought up that the corrupted EU's parliament reports that in 2016, British people did not know what they were voting for in the referendum and that they recommend it be done again, just for final confirmation... :rolleyes:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ort-article-50

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I had absolutely no idea what thread I was on here for a minute. Thankfully Micks post was at the top of the page. Thought it was the party thread for a while

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don’t buy that. Things change, and you have to adapt.

For example, using the Truss case. She voted remain. The voters chose Brexit. So she accepted that and moved forward to make Brexit work, and over the course of a year, she managed to secure all those rollover deals that ensured trade continuity while our own trade deals were negotiated.

That is politics working. I have nothing but respect for those who were remainers but have accepted the will of the electorate gracefully instead of wallowing in self pity and scoffing every time something goes wrong.

It’s way past time to accept that we are out of the EU now and work together to make the best of it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Thanks for highlighting this.

To everyone. Stop posting partygate posts in this thread. Ones posted already will be removed.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

exactly what Kier is hoping to do.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think Seph's point is that Truss, Karmer etc have accepted we've left and will make the best of a bad job, whereas Johnson changed horses before the vote and campaigned to leave because he saw that as a way to become PM.

In terms of his faults, I wouldn't put that at the top of the list.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

To be honest I think the issue is settled now and almost everybody - bar some fanatics - have moved on. The argument that we shouldn't have left but now that we have we might as well make the best of it is not hypocrisy nor contradictory. I think there are a few people in the press and the Government that want to keep pushing Brexit as a divisive issue because it sells papers and is politically useful but there isn't much juice in that issue.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Spot on.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Do you not think the people who deceived the nation about the financial benefits of Brexit should be held to account? If not, why not? If you accept that national deception should be tolerated and not challenged then you start down the road to a dark place.

As the fog of Covid dissipates, the real world effects of Brexit will start to become more visible to the people who never really cared about the politics and just believed the lies.

---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 ----------

Oh the irony

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FL0speYW...jpg&name=small

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He famously wrote two articles - one supporting Brexit and one supporting remain. He then compared the two and recognised that Brexit had more going for it in the longer term than staying in the EU.

So if that was what changed his mind, so what? You should welcome politicians standing back and re-evaluating rather than sticking to their guns simply to avoid losing face.

I know you have a downer on Boris, but come on, play fair.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A Twitter poll with a leading question thinly disguised as background information … your grasp of irony is as shaky as Alanis Morissette.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Of course, there was no deception by remainers, was there? I struggle to think of a single prediction of theirs that has come true so far.

Forget that poll. It is not a true representation of what the people of this country think. Not only that, but some are having understandable doubts owing to the uncertainty about so many things at the moment, most of which are nothing to do with Brexit. When the dust settles, people will regain their confidence.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I suppose King Canute claimed he'd be proved right too if people waited long enough for the tide to go out again.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed, as I'm the complete opposite. I voted Remain based on what I "didn't know". I just thought the status quo is probably the safest option.

Now, 6 years later, with all that I know now, I'd vote leave, without hesitation.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

just to be pedantic King Canute did the whole tide thing to show his people he was just a man and not a God

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Economists at the time of the referendum didn't make predictions. They couldn't because they didn't know what kind of Brexit we would get. Would we get something like an EEA membership, as proposed by Farage at the time, or would we get the No Deal Brexit that he was really after? Few would have anticipated the pig's ear of a Brexit we actually got. Instead of predictions, economists and leading Remainers proposed scenarios. The worst was a No Deal scenario where our economy would suffer the most after we left the EU. An average 8% GDP loss across the country within 10 years of leaving seemed likely. (Some areas such as the NE might get a 16% loss) The best was an EEA Brexit where the loss to GDP might only be 2% over 10 years. Corbyn's proposed customs union Brexit would be slightly worse than that.

The Leave press decided to take those scenarios, spin them as predictions and cherrypicked the worse. This left people like you believing that Remain had predicted 8% GDP as soon as we left the EU. No such claim was made. Given that we have only been out of the EU 2 years, we haven't had time for the effects to embed yet. Until we left at the end of January 2020 our economy benefited all round from business with the EU as usual. The decline of an economy is by a thousand cuts, not overnight.

The signs aren't good though. The effect of the massive increase in red tape, something the leave campaign hid from you, has led to a 2% decline in trade with the EU, factoring out Covid-19. At the moment, no deals come close to replacing that. A deal with India may happen if we accept their demand for increased immigration from India. A deal may happen with the USA if we accept their demand to sell us poor quality meats and GM crops and to get their commercial hands on our valued institutions like the NHS. They tried that with the EU, when we were still members. The EU had the clout to say 'No'.

Meanwhile, Rees-Mogg is trying to find out what the sunny uplands of Brexit might look like by asking Sun readers. Bear in mind that he did say that it might take 50 years for the full benefits of Brexit to be realised. He hasn't made it clear what happens to the economy, and people's livelihoods and businesses in the meantime.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b0de86f48e3566

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don’t think you properly understand the King Canute story.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I have picked this paragraph of your post as I really cannot be bothered to repeat yet again all those leaver predictions that didn’t come true. The rest you cannot rely on because the future has not happened.

We all know about the red tape and the costs that come with it. But Brexiteers pointed to the benefits of being released from the rest of the bureaucracy associated with the freedom of being outside the EU.

So far, we have only seen the rollover trade deals that we were busily putting into place to ensure that we would continue to benefit from the EU-negotiated deals in the first year. However, we are forging ahead with the trade deal for India right now, and negotiations commence for the trade deal with Canada in April.

It has been explained previously that the EU refused to include services in the trade deals they negotiated because other EU countries would benefit little from this. However, for us, services are the biggest income earner, and inclusion of services in our future trade deals will open up a very nice income stream indeed.

You are wrong on the US situation. We had a draft trade deal with America all ready to go under the Trump administration, but when Biden got in he was not interested in these big deals, preferring to negotiate in packets. So far we have succeeded in getting deals on beef and lamb, which is a good start.

As far as meat imports are concerned, trade deals can specify the standards required for sale in the UK, a little point that many remainers appear not to understand.

We have yet to benefit from Brexit freedoms firstly because these new trade deals will take a few years to negotiate, and secondly, we have yet to witness the ‘bonfire of regulations’ that Boris has said he intends to bring forward now.

Those economic forecasts you refer to are not worth the paper they are written on because they concentrate on what we already know about the downsides. Very few upsides are in that calculation because it is impossible to make a sensible and reasoned prediction as to how businesses will take advantage of their new freedoms, which will be gradually introduced over the coming years.

We have been outside of the EU for less than three months, and yet remainers claim that we should already be seeing massive benefits from Brexit by now if it was to succeed. This is naive and stupid. The new freedoms are nowhere near completed yet. Any real benefits that push us into credit should be seen as medium, not short-term benefits.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The highlighted parts are why i want him to go, but sushi pension thief has to go as well.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think Covid has messed with your perception, Seph.

As for breaking manifesto promises - some have been delayed and some have to be temporarily abandoned because of Covid. You must see that.

If you want to see an example of an eco-loon, look no further than Caroline Lucas or The Greta. Boris is simply getting on with a task that is better tackled now to avoid a more disruptive scrabble at the last minute. The world is focussed on 2050 to go carbon neutral and some like China still haven’t worked out how to commit to that date.

Oh, and Boris’s wife and his wallpaper? Hardly our concern, is it?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You start by saying the remain predictions can't be relied upon because they are based on the future and the future is yet to happen, then go on to explain why leaving will be ace because of all the things you predict will happen in the future despite the future being yet to happen :confused: Selective or what!!

Also, I don't think you quite understand how to use a calendar to work out the passage of time as we left the EU over 12 months ago not 3 ;). Could explain you stance and the moving goalposts on the demise of TV as we know it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Characterising the millions who would wish us to move closer to the EU economy as fanatics, is very insulting. When you see hundreds of small exporters and importers struggling to manage the costs and delays to the trade they had built up with the EU, surely you can see why people would want us at least to restore frictionless trade with the EU.

There's a reason why our small exporters and importers would want to trade with the EU rather than the wider world: 1) Shorter distances mean cheaper shipping, 2) Shorter distance involve smaller carbon footprints and 3) JIT delivery is more predictable over shorter distances. Replacing EU trade with worldwide trade automatically builds in those additional drawbacks and costs. Add in the increased red tape and fees at borders, then one can see why small businesses are failing and throwing in the towel daily, especially given that the checks built into transactions with the EU are more complex than anywhere else in the world. Restoring a customs union of some kind would avert all of that.

Many of us would like to start now building a movement to rejoin the EU because we have lost so many individual and freedoms by leaving and we are aware of the disadvantages for trade and European cooperation. We are not a few fanatics. We are real patriots, wanting the best for our country and people. We reject the rabid and xenophobic nationalism that underpinned the Leave campaign, trying to wrest an imaginary independence from Johnny foreigner in Brussels, little realising that all trade deals and treaties require some loss of sovereignty, especially when there are much bigger fish in the sea.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/587442468465687/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:dozey:

What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, etc.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm not sure you read my post carefully.

The economist scenarios for different models of Brexit took into account the opportunities and drawbacks of Brexit. That is what economists do. They take all the factors and give us best and worst case scenarios to base our decisions on. It was the Leave press that misrepresented them and characterised them as part of Project Fear. Infact, they were project reality.

The possible deal with Trump's regime was nowhere near completion. As junior partners, and therefore rule takers, we would have struggled to maintain the sorts of standards we had developed with our EU partners as equal members. Trump and now Biden, know our desperation. The bargain the US will drive will be a hard one which we are in no position to resist if we want to replace the volume of trade we are steadily losing from the EU. For the USA also read India, China, Brazil, Russia and the PTO. We will end up dumbing down some of our hard-won product standards to match those of our larger partners. Note that our farmers are already very unhappy with the competition they will be getting as a result of that piddling Australian deal. You ain't seen nothing yet. TRade deals involving many, carbon-emitting miles, will be replacing the sound arrangements we had with our close neighbours. The timing of this massive commitment to greater carbon emissions could not be more ironic.

I am glad you acknowledged that it will take years to negotiate all those wonderful trade deals and arrangement and to benefit from all those opportunities. What is the government doing to enable the transition and soften the pain over these decades whilst we discover the sunny uplands. Little from what I can see. They haven't even bothered to replace the sums parts of our country got from the EU's regional development fund. We have saved all those billions in donations to the EU budget, but the government aren't using anything like the amount we have saved to uplevel Cornwall, the NE or the NW or rescue struggling farmers. It looks like Mogg's 50 years estimate is about right.

I haven't heard a single notable Remainer declare that we should be feeling the benefits of Brexit already. You made that accusation, so you could shoot it down. If the Remainers and Mogg thought that the benefits would take decades, they are hardly going to be looking for them yet. What they are looking for is some sort of road map of how those benefits are going to be realised and an indication of what those benefits really are. The small fry trade deals with Japan and Australia are hardly an indication of the promised land. The Japan deal is far inferior to the one the EU signed with Japan, shortly after us. (Guess who was the bigger partner?) Remainers are also looking for a plan to deal with and mitigate the current explosion in red tape caused by Brexit. There is no plan because the negotiations were so rushed that Johnson didn't expect these disadvantages. He rushed negotiations through to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny, but in doing so missed out on the parliamentary expertise that would have told him to plan for an red tape explosion or negotiate a deal that included frictionless trade. So much for the sovereignty of Parliament. So much for wresting democracy from Brussels.


You mentioned a 'bonfire of regulations'. We both know that to keep it simple we have rolled over most of the relevant EU regulations to do with trade, food production standards, manufacturing standards, services, health and safety, environmental protection human rights etc Sensible move. Tell me. Given that we helped establish these regulations and often initiated them, in the days before our political pendulum swung to the extreme right, what regulations are going to be thrown on the bonfire. We were on the winning side 97% of the time when these regulations were tailor-made in Brussels for each country by the multi-national team of civil servants who work there, and then voted on by our MEPs. What regulations do we now think we had got so wrong then? I know we have swung well to the right since 2010, but I still struggle to see what rules from my above list of categories we can suddenly ditch. The environment, manufacture standards, health and safety and food standards are important. Often we gold plated EU rules to make them even tougher here. Dare I mention Manx kippers?
.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Also worth mentioning that the EU has successfully negotiated the removal of Trump's aluminium and steel tariffs whilst the UK has not.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-eu-...ay-2021-10-30/

Plus the fact that the EU is seeking deals with the likes of India too. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Which means little because as you said,

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Starting with your last paragraph, yes, my typo. I don’t know where that came from, I meant to say ‘less than 18 months’. How strange!

On the first point, what I’m trying to say is that the forecasts are unable to predict future income, whereas losses from pulling out of the EU are known. So the credit side of the balance sheet is unknown.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Brilliant. :D:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh dear, you clearly do not and apparently cannot get the irony: talkRadio, a radio station employing people like Julia Hartley-Brewer and Mike Graham, do a Brexit poll and the result above. It's hilarious ..

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:43 ----------

Deflection. The Leave campaign lied pure and simple. They lied and the country is permanently impoverished as a result in so many ways.

You also missed the irony of a talkRadio poll returning the result it did.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I wonder who will get the best deal with India, a country of 65 million people or an economic bloc of 500 million people?
:rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't really care what you do or don't think. I care about the millions who believed the liars and voted thinking that they and their children would be better off.

---------- Post added at 19:17 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------

I want to commend you on your posts. They are clear, detailed and address the points that the Leave supporters here will not address honestly. The reason being is that they are unable to. They will deflect or will reinvent their original positions, a new reality stating: "Well, we knew all along that that there will be problems, pain and loss of revenue, etc".

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If the loses were known, why was there a range of potential downsides put forward by the remain side?