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papa smurf 04-06-2020 09:39
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36038285)
Almost as good as someone insisting all MPs return to Parliament, to hear a minister who potentially has the virus in an enclosed place, then distributing the MPs round the country again. Top government !
All they have done is go back to work.

This idiot joined a mob of thousands ignoring the pandemic and the law regarding it, how many people will now die as a result of this illegal gathering and his publicity stunt.

1andrew1 04-06-2020 10:10
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36038285)
Almost as good as someone insisting all MPs return to Parliament, to hear a minister who potentially has the virus in an enclosed place, then distributing the MPs round the country again. Top government !
Two crass decisions - one from the Leader of the House and one from an MP.

jonbxx 04-06-2020 10:34
Re: Coronavirus
 
Just read an interesting article in the FT about how Germany handled and is handling the outbreak - https://t.co/Ho1Q11Ndm3?amp=1 (not paywalled)

There are many aspects where there can't be a comparison between the UK and Germany (massively devolved health management and a mixed state and private healthcare system) but it's interesting nevertheless. It seems very local empowerment backed up by a strong, popular federal leadership was the key to Germany's success

RichardCoulter 04-06-2020 10:48
Re: Coronavirus
 
There was an interesting programme on Channel 4 last night:

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/...t-get-it-wrong

Dispatches investigated whether the Government got things right in the way that they have handled the virus thus far.

nomadking 04-06-2020 11:03
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36038295)
Just read an interesting article in the FT about how Germany handled and is handling the outbreak - https://t.co/Ho1Q11Ndm3?amp=1 (not paywalled)

There are many aspects where there can't be a comparison between the UK and Germany (massively devolved health management and a mixed state and private healthcare system) but it's interesting nevertheless. It seems very local empowerment backed up by a strong, popular federal leadership was the key to Germany's success
Quote:
This April, Walther Leonhard got an unusual call from the authorities in Rosenheim, his hometown in southern Germany.
So how did any action in April prevent cases before then and their more limited form of lockdown?

Quote:
In Rosenheim, it could have been very different. A short drive from the Austrian border, this bustling, affluent town, with its medieval centre and grand 19th-century facades, was one of the hardest hit parts of the country. Locals returning from Shrovetide skiing holidays in nearby South Tyrol brought coronavirus home with them, while a three-day “strong beer” festival that started on March 6 acted as a “super-spreader”. By late May, Rosenheim district had suffered 183 deaths from Covid-19 and 864 coronavirus infections per 100,000 people — one of the highest ratios in Germany.
As I have to keep pointing out, the biggest factor in the number of cases, is the number of people bringing it into the country in the first place. Just think of the fictional scenario when somebody deliberately uses people to spread a virus. The more people used in country X compared to country Y, will increase the number of infections in X compared to Y.

Quote:
It decided which patients were sent where, how to share out scarce protective equipment and where to create additional capacity. “There were really no instructions from Berlin,” says Deerberg-Wittram. “Decisions were made locally, on the spot.”
So what has Merkel got to do with that?:confused:

Quote:
One major issue: the acute shortage of PPE, especially masks — at least at the start of the onslaught. Like other countries, Germany found itself having to scour the world for increasingly scarce supplies just as its hospitals needed them most.
Fewer cases, but still had a PPE shortage, same as with South Korea.

The UK has had plans in place for more than 10 years. They have been, and are, publicly available. It's all related to the Civil Contingencies Act 2004. The NHS also had £100m of stock set aside for a pandemic.

1andrew1 04-06-2020 11:16
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36038295)
Just read an interesting article in the FT about how Germany handled and is handling the outbreak - https://t.co/Ho1Q11Ndm3?amp=1 (not paywalled)

There are many aspects where there can't be a comparison between the UK and Germany (massively devolved health management and a mixed state and private healthcare system) but it's interesting nevertheless. It seems very local empowerment backed up by a strong, popular federal leadership was the key to Germany's success
Yes, that's a very good article and interesting to see they had a near-hidden track and trace infrastructure in place that could be called upon. The empowerment of the GPs' surgeries to set up testing was inspiring.

nomadking 04-06-2020 11:35
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36038297)
There was an interesting programme on Channel 4 last night:

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/...t-get-it-wrong

Dispatches investigated whether the Government got things right in the way that they have handled the virus thus far.
And the one about South Korea, highlighted the fact that the biggest problem is SOCIETY. In South Korea, their SOCIETY had accepted a policy of "Safety above Privacy". Limited details(age, occupation, location) of infected people were published on a website. They were ALL wearing face masks or coverings of one sort or another. Very few people in this country have done that.

The main sources of importation of the virus for South Korea, was China, whereas in the UK it has spread from China AND other countries such as Italy and Austria. More points of introduction, to more parts of the country.

The measures adopted in South Korea are CONSTANTLY complained about in the UK, especially by the MEDIA.

---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36038299)
Yes, that's a very good article and interesting to see they had a near-hidden track and trace infrastructure in place that could be called upon. The empowerment of the GPs' surgeries to set up testing was inspiring.
Near hidden, as in near non-existent and with very limited powers, eg (use of phone data)
Quote:
Underfunded and understaffed, they long led something of a shadow existence. Few people had much of an idea what they were there for, apart from measuring drinking water quality and tackling measles outbreaks.
Track and trace can only work where there is a small number of cases.
Quote:
One doctor in Bologna, who asked not to be named, said he had spent a 12-hour day tracing people who had been in contact with just one positive patient, to ensure those who next need testing are found. “You can do that if the number of cases remains two to three,” the doctor said. “But if they grow, something has to give. The system will implode if we continue to test everyone actively and then have to do all this.”

Pierre 04-06-2020 12:37
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038286)
All they have done is go back to work.

This idiot joined a mob of thousands ignoring the pandemic and the law regarding it, how many people will now die as a result of this illegal gathering and his publicity stunt.
Funny that isn't it, just as a report states that BAME people are more likely to be impacted by COVID 19, BAME and others all congregate to protest that black lives matter, thereby putting more of those lives that matter at risk.

jonbxx 04-06-2020 15:30
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36038299)
Yes, that's a very good article and interesting to see they had a near-hidden track and trace infrastructure in place that could be called upon. The empowerment of the GPs' surgeries to set up testing was inspiring.
Yeah, the Gesundheitsämter setup seemed to work well. We keep hearing noises regarding local lockdowns in the UK and this is perhaps a situation where local subdivisions of PHE would come in handy here too, devolving public health to NHS trust level as an example..

That said, Germany essentially has 16 'countries' (Länder) under their federal system while we already have 4. Would a more granular system work...

RichardCoulter 04-06-2020 15:53
Re: Coronavirus
 
It was said on TV yesterday that there is no option to check if the Track & Trace caller is authentic and not a scammer. Eg if you receive a phone call asking for personal details, you cannot call them back to verify the call.

A scammers field day, so I won't be doing it, especially since I have been affected by the Virgin Media data breach. I receive enough calls that my internet is going off in 4 hours as it is!

heero_yuy 04-06-2020 15:59
Re: Coronavirus
 
R4 "You and Yours" featured this yesterday and already people have been scammed out of money and personal data.

Scammers spoof the telephone number to look like the track and trace number that the government publicised. Yawning security failure.

1andrew1 04-06-2020 16:17
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36038313)
Yeah, the Gesundheitsämter setup seemed to work well. We keep hearing noises regarding local lockdowns in the UK and this is perhaps a situation where local subdivisions of PHE would come in handy here too, devolving public health to NHS trust level as an example..

That said, Germany essentially has 16 'countries' (Länder) under their federal system while we already have 4. Would a more granular system work...
I think in Greater Manchester the agreement there is to bring health under the jurisdiction of the Mayor, but I'm not sure how the various bodies fit together. I can certainly see that councils would be well placed for track and trace. https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov...e-for-the-nhs/

Sephiroth 04-06-2020 16:37
Re: Coronavirus
 
I'm very much in favour of decentralised T&T operation and power for local decisions against a common set of rules. The key, of course, is an automated workflow that ensures local data contributes to the national picture because transport decisions may need to be taken centrally. Needs quite a bit of thought.


---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:22 ----------

You'd have thought that the results of Alok Sharma's CV test would have been done in a small matter of hours given the potential to cripple the Guvmin. At this time of writing - nothing known to the public. [Edit in Red]

Mr. K must be on the edge of his seat awaiting a positive result.

jonbxx 04-06-2020 16:40
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36038324)
I'm very much in favour of decentralised T&T operation and power for local decisions against a common set of rules. The key, of course, is an automated workflow that ensures local data contributes to the national picture because transport decisions may need to be taken centrally. Needs quite a bit of thought.
[COLOR="Silver"]
The other consideration would be the handoff between regions. It wouldn't be simple to get right...

1andrew1 04-06-2020 16:47
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36038324)
I'm very much in favour of decentralised T&T operation and power for local decisions against a common set of rules. The key, of course, is an automated workflow that ensures local data contributes to the national picture because transport decisions may need to be taken centrally. Needs quite a bit of thought.


---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:22 ----------

You'd have thought that the results of Alok Sharma's CV test would have been done in a small matter of hours given the potential to cripple the Guvmin. At this time of wringing - nothing known to the public.

Mr. K must be on the edge of his seat awaiting a positive result.
Maybe he can't read the results and has had to go somewhere for an eyetest? :D
I suspect Mr K is still reading his complimentary Telegraph. ;)

nomadking 04-06-2020 16:47
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36038321)
R4 "You and Yours" featured this yesterday and already people have been scammed out of money and personal data.

Scammers spoof the telephone number to look like the track and trace number that the government publicised. Yawning security failure.
Strange that other countries don't seem to have a problem with this. Or is it a matter of them not have a media that inform potential scammers of the potential.:mad:

1andrew1 04-06-2020 17:48
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038329)
Strange that other countries don't seem to have a problem with this. Or is it a matter of them not have a media that inform potential scammers of the potential.:mad:
I suspect they have Governments somewhat more competent at track and trace than ours. ;)

nomadking 04-06-2020 18:22
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36038330)
I suspect they have Governments somewhat more competent at track and trace than ours. ;)
Competence or otherwise ISN'T the issue. Why haven't Germany and South Korea long been plagued with scammers? Or is it simply their media hasn't given people any ideas of carrying out scams in the first place. Just because Germany had a extremely limited form of tracing, doesn't mean it had any impact. Testing water quality and measles outbreaks are not really comparable. Even Italy had a form of tracing, and look what happened there.:rolleyes:
Contact tracing WAS taking place in the UK, but the number of cases rose so rapidly it then had to be abandoned. As the quote from the Doctor in Italy said.

Quote:
One doctor in Bologna, who asked not to be named, said he had spent a 12-hour day tracing people who had been in contact with just one positive patient, to ensure those who next need testing are found. “You can do that if the number of cases remains two to three,” the doctor said. “But if they grow, something has to give. The system will implode if we continue to test everyone actively and then have to do all this.”
South Korea

Quote:
This includes enforcing a law that grants the government wide authority to access data: CCTV footage, GPS tracking data from phones and cars, credit card transactions, immigration entry information, and other personal details of people confirmed to have an infectious disease. The authorities can then make some of this public, so anyone who may have been exposed can get themselves - or their friends and family members - tested.
Good luck with trying that over here.:rolleyes: The media would have a giant hissy fit, as always.:mad:
Quote:
“Patient 31,” as she became known, was a member of a secretive church which Deputy Minister for Health and Welfare Kim Gang-lip said has since linked to 61% of cases. Infections spread beyond the congregation after the funeral of a relative of the church’s founder was held at a nearby hospital, and there were several other smaller clusters around the country. Once the church cluster was identified, South Korea opened around 50 drive-through testing facilities around the country.
Tracing within such a relatively enclosed group is a lot easier, than having to trace people at a parties or in pubs. If instead "Patient 31" had been a bit of a "party animal", then it's almost certain the spread would have been a lot wider. Just as one of their outbreaks was created by a "party animal" going to different clubs.
Quote:
More than 100 cases have been linked to nightlife venues in the South Korean capital, and on Saturday, Seoul ordered all clubs and bars to temporarily close.
The cluster has caused alarm in South Korea, which was among the first countries outside of China to deal with a large-scale coronavirus outbreak. In recent weeks, however, authorities had begun loosening restrictions as case numbers fell.
...
Although all three venues linked to the cluster asked for customers' full names and phone numbers on arrival, the city has been unable to contact almost 2,000 club-goers -- meaning they either avoided the calls or gave a false number, Seoul's mayor Park Won-soon said Monday.
The city has had to employ other measures to track them. Using phone signal tower records, the city found that 10,905 people were in the vicinity of the clubs in the nightlife suburb of Itaewon between April 24 and May 6. Authorities have texted them all, saying they should get tested. Officials have also used credit cards to track almost 500 people, who have been asked to get tested and self-quarantine.
Tracing only works when you are dealing with people that accept it.



One massive WORLD-WIDE error has been the focus on coughing and sneezing as a method of transmission. Talking or merely breathing have been established as large factors. There isn't a sort of 2m range of fug like with after-shave or perfume, surrounding people. It is directional. You could be standing right beside somebody, but as long as you are breathing in a direction away from everybody, then theoretically it should be ok. On the other hand, even 2m metres away face to face, could be a problem.

Mick 04-06-2020 18:40
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36038285)
Almost as good as someone insisting all MPs return to Parliament, to hear a minister who potentially has the virus in an enclosed place, then distributing the MPs round the country again. Top government !
Only that MP has tested NEGATIVE for Covid-19.

https://news.sky.com/story/alok-shar...virus-12000657

BREAKING: Alok Sharma tests negative for Covid-19.

Mr K's narrative destroyed, as per the norm. ;)

Mr K 04-06-2020 20:55
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36038341)
Only that MP has tested NEGATIVE for Covid-19.

https://news.sky.com/story/alok-shar...virus-12000657

BREAKING: Alok Sharma tests negative for Covid-19.

Mr K's narrative destroyed, as per the norm. ;)
Well that's good news :) But it's only by luck, could easily be very different. Politicians and their special 'advisors' need to be role models in following the rules/good working practices. Otherwise the rest of us, and other employers won't take it seriously.

Paul 04-06-2020 23:35
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36038307)
Funny that isn't it, just as a report states that BAME people are more likely to be impacted by COVID 19, BAME and others all congregate to protest that black lives matter, thereby putting more of those lives that matter at risk.
All lives matter, a point clearly lost on idiot protesters, who put themselves and families at risk.

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038284)
Labour mp puts lives at risk for publicity stunt
So presumably the press are hounding him to resign ? :erm:

I await the outraged forum members from last weeks topic also calling for his head. :angel:

papa smurf 05-06-2020 09:04
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36038372)
All lives matter, a point clearly lost on idiot protesters, who put themselves and families at risk.

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:30 ----------



So presumably the press are hounding him to resign ? :erm:

I await the outraged forum members from last weeks topic also calling for his head. :angel:
Sadly a great wall of hypocrisy has been erected as usual.

peanut 05-06-2020 09:21
Re: Coronavirus
 
What, you mean the topic we're not allowed to talk about because certain people gotten too upset...

1andrew1 05-06-2020 09:49
Re: Coronavirus
 
This makes sense and the same must go for some other professions as well.
Quote:
Coronavirus: Police planning their own contact tracing system over concerns about government's version
Police forces are planning their own contact tracing system over concerns the government's test and trace scheme could place officers in danger, Sky News has learned.
Under the plans, police officers who test positive for COVID-19 would not give their contacts to NHS contact tracers, but would instead inform their police force who would take over contact tracing to identify anyone at risk of catching the virus.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...icers-12000761

mrmistoffelees 05-06-2020 10:08
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36038372)
All lives matter, a point clearly lost on idiot protesters, who put themselves and families at risk.

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:30 ----------



So presumably the press are hounding him to resign ? :erm:

I await the outraged forum members from last weeks topic also calling for his head. :angel:
No, it's a point lost on people who fail to grasp a fundamental concept.

If a house is on fire, the fire brigade go to that house, not check people are OK two doors down. Or, to put it another way. You wouldn't go to a breast cancer march and start saying 'All cancer matters'

Black lives matter is where the focus needs to be right now.

papa smurf 05-06-2020 10:16
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038398)
No, it's a point lost on people who fail to grasp a fundamental concept.

If a house is on fire, the fire brigade go to that house, not check people are OK two doors down. Or, to put it another way. You wouldn't go to a breast cancer march and start saying 'All cancer matters'

Black lives matter is where the focus needs to be right now.
So only black lives matter right now,is that because it makes you feel good right now ? what about the rest of humanity where do they stand in all this right now.

1andrew1 05-06-2020 10:24
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038399)
So only black lives matter right now,is that because it makes you feel good right now ? what about the rest of humanity where do they stand in all this right now.
A good debate but worthy of its own thread?

papa smurf 05-06-2020 10:27
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36038400)
A good debate but worthy of its own thread?
Agreed

peanut 05-06-2020 10:28
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038399)
So only black lives matter right now,is that because it makes you feel good right now ? what about the rest of humanity where do they stand in all this right now.
It's a choice. Obviously a risk at present but still a choice to be able to protest. No need to turn it into something different. If it is something that someone feels that strongly about then that's their prerogative.

But still, I can't quite compare that MP who protested to Cummings though. One lied and one didn't. One that was isolating since March and most likely a much less risk than someone who was with someone who was infected and did actually put the public (and family) at risk. But if we should be able to comment on one then we should be able to comment on all..

papa smurf 05-06-2020 10:44
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
[QUOTE=peanut;36038402]It's a choice. Obviously a risk at present but still a choice to be able to protest. No need to turn it into something different. If it is something that someone feels that strongly about then that's their prerogative.





The problem is only 6 people are allowed to meet up with others outside whilst observing a 2 mtr distance , what if the infections now start to spike in areas where these protests have taken place.

peanut 05-06-2020 10:48
Re: Coronavirus
 
That is their risk. It is a problem, and I hope it doesn't spike in result. But having a Government that isn't taking it seriously enough nor setting a good example helps either. Maybe things would have been totally different believed and accept what we're told. If we're all in it together kind of thing but it is a complete mess.

papa smurf 05-06-2020 10:58
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038410)
That is their risk. It is a problem, and I hope it doesn't spike in result. But having a Government that isn't taking it seriously enough nor setting a good example helps either. Maybe things would have been totally different believed and accept what we're told. If we're all in it together kind of thing but it is a complete mess.
That's like firing a gun into a crown and calling it an acceptable risk that no one is killed.

peanut 05-06-2020 10:59
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038412)
That's like firing a gun into a crown and calling it an acceptable risk that no one is killed.
Call it what you like. Doesn't change anything. Why highlight just that part, why not comment on the rest too..

downquark1 05-06-2020 11:05
Re: Coronavirus
 
Did Cummings lie?

peanut 05-06-2020 11:09
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36038414)
Did Cummings lie?
Well that depends on what side of the fence you sit on doesn't it.

papa smurf 05-06-2020 11:09
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038413)
Call it what you like. Doesn't change anything. Why highlight just that part, why not comment on the rest too..
You're trying to revive a subject that has been closed and i'm not playing.

peanut 05-06-2020 11:10
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038416)
You're trying to revive a subject that has been closed and i'm not playing.
The part about the government.... That's not closed (just yet).

downquark1 05-06-2020 11:11
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038415)
Well that depends on what side of the fence you sit on doesn't it.
No I mean really, did he ever claim not to have made the journey? This is a fairly objective thing.

mrmistoffelees 05-06-2020 11:11
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36038399)
So only black lives matter right now,is that because it makes you feel good right now ? what about the rest of humanity where do they stand in all this right now.
This probably needs it's own thread, but again you're missing the two explanations i pointed out.

peanut 05-06-2020 11:13
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36038418)
No I mean really, did he ever claim not to have made the journey? This is a fairly objective thing.
You believe his eyesight needed to be tested with his wife and child in the car? And not a day out treat on his wife's Birthday?

downquark1 05-06-2020 11:14
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038420)
You believe his eyesight needed to be tested with his wife and child in the car? And not a day out treat on his wife's Birthday?
Oh that bit. OK I see, I thought you were saying he tried to cover up the trip.

peanut 05-06-2020 11:14
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36038421)
Oh that bit. OK I see, I thought you were saying he tried to cover up the trip.
So do you believe he lied?

downquark1 05-06-2020 11:19
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038422)
So do you believe he lied?
I am less concerned about the supposed justifications than the total number of people exposed. If he had lied about the trip then that would have been a massive problem.

Sephiroth 05-06-2020 11:19
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038422)
So do you believe he lied?
You "sound" like Emily Maitlis. This diversion has been done to death in a closed thread.

peanut 05-06-2020 11:21
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36038423)
I am less concerned about the supposed justifications than the total number of people exposed. If he had lied about the trip then that would have been a massive problem.
You see that's part of the problem here. Pick and choose the parts you agree or disagree with. If someone with that kind of responsibility lies then obviously it's going to cause problems with an us and them situation. The risks people are taking is probably down to the lack of control from the government and what to believe.

downquark1 05-06-2020 11:24
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038425)
You see that's part of the problem here. Pick and choose the parts you agree or disagree with. If someone with that kind of responsibility lies then obviously it's going to cause problems with an us and them situation. The risks people are taking is probably down to the lack of control from the government and what to believe.
Everyone is lying on a daily basis. I see no reason why Cummings should be singled out. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...roquine-trials

peanut 05-06-2020 11:25
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36038427)
Everyone is lying on a daily basis. I see no reason why Cummings should be singled out. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...roquine-trials
Because he set the rules. He should at least set the example.

downquark1 05-06-2020 11:35
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038429)
Because he set the rules. He should at least set the example.
I will support the sacking of Cummings, if every protester pays the fine.

Carth 05-06-2020 11:42
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36038431)
I will support the sacking of Cummings, if every protester pays the fine.
Couldn't help noticing the 'sig' you have at the bottom of your posts, rather apt if you don't mind me saying ;)

1andrew1 05-06-2020 13:44
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36038431)
I will support the sacking of Cummings, if every protester pays the fine.
I will support the retention of Cummings if Boris Johnson resigns. ;)

Paul 05-06-2020 14:23
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36038398)
Black lives matter is where the focus needs to be right now.
Complete garbage. All lives matter.

OLD BOY 05-06-2020 14:29
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038429)
Because he set the rules. He should at least set the example.
He reckons he stayed within the rules. He should know if he wrote them.

All these silly statements being made by some about Cummings, and then using them to justify their own non-compliance is ridiculous. Either people want to stop this virus or they don't, for self preservation if nothing else.

I do not agree with the lockdown at all, but social distancing has merit (although the WHO recommends 1 metre, not 2, which would certainly help businesses to get up and running again).

And if social distancing is to be a legal requirement, it needs to be enforced. Good luck with regard to people protesting!

In the end, I think all of these lockdown measures will unravel and the virus will travel freely through the population. As long as the vulnerable and 'at risk' people are locked away, that's all we need to worry about. Then, when it's travelled through, herd immunity will have been achieved with much less fuss and we can release the vulnerable groups.

There will be no effective vaccine available for mass immunisation of the population for some considerable time.

---------- Post added at 14:29 ---------- Previous post was at 14:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36038461)
Complete garbage. All lives matter.
It's not really, Paul. In the US, only white lives seem to matter. The racial discrimination that still goes on there is shameful.

denphone 05-06-2020 14:45
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36038461)
Complete garbage. All lives matter.
l agree with you there.

---------- Post added at 14:45 ---------- Previous post was at 14:42 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36038462)
It's not really, Paul. In the US, only white lives seem to matter. The racial discrimination that still goes on there is shameful.
Pretty depressing really as whatever progress America did make its gone backwards massively sadly.

Paul 05-06-2020 14:47
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36038462)
It's not really, Paul. In the US, only white lives seem to matter. The racial discrimination that still goes on there is shameful.
That would be the same US that elected a black president ?

Racial discrimination is bad, absolutely, but by going around saying "black lives matter" you are committing that very act, you are implying other lives do not.

As someone mentioned earlier, its not really a subject for this thread, however, the idiots in those protests are. They have put themselves at risk, those around them at risk, and all their families at risk - and for what ? Nothing, some pointless protest in the UK will make zero difference.

Let's just hope none of them had the virus, or passed it on.

Hugh 05-06-2020 15:14
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36038469)
That would be the same US that elected a black president ?

Racial discrimination is bad, absolutely, but by going around saying "black lives matter" you are committing that very act, you are implying other lives do not.

As someone mentioned earlier, its not really a subject for this thread, however, the idiots in those protests are. They have put themselves at risk, those around them at risk, and all their families at risk - and for what ? Nothing, some pointless protest in the UK will make zero difference.

Let's just hope none of them had the virus, or passed it on.
Have to disagree - if there was a modifier "black lives matter more" or "only black lives matter", you would have a point - but there isn’t.

Saying "All Lives Matter" redirects the attention from black lives, who are the ones in peril - in the USA, black people are twice as likely to be killed by a police officer while unarmed, compared to a white individual - according to a 2015 study, African Americans died at the hands of police at a rate of 7.2 per million, while whites were killed at a rate of 2.9 per million. Saying "Black Lives Matter" isn't equivalent to saying other lives don't, but rather that Black lives should matter as much as others.

A friend of mine sent me this

Quote:
Think of it this way: If you get into a car crash and one person has a serious head injury but the others have a few bumps and bruises, the person whose life is at risk gets first priority when it comes to medical care. That doesn’t mean paramedics won’t help the rest of the passengers, but that triage places the most dire situation first in line.

Or, to look at it another way, if someone keeps setting your house on fire, you'd want firefighters to do something about it. Wouldn't it upset you if instead, people kept telling you that "all houses matter equally," if yours was the one burning?

daveeb 05-06-2020 15:25
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36038473)
Have to disagree - if there was a modifier "black lives matter more" or "only black lives matter", you would have a point - but there isn’t.

Saying "All Lives Matter" redirects the attention from black lives, who are the ones in peril - in the USA, black people are twice as likely to be killed by a police officer while unarmed, compared to a white individual - according to a 2015 study, African Americans died at the hands of police at a rate of 7.2 per million, while whites were killed at a rate of 2.9 per million. Saying "Black Lives Matter" isn't equivalent to saying other lives don't, but rather that Black lives should matter as much as others.

A friend of mine sent me this
Summed up very eloquently :tu:

Carth 05-06-2020 15:27
Re: Coronavirus
 
I thought we weren't allowed to call people 'black' anymore?

OLD BOY 05-06-2020 15:42
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36038477)
I thought we weren't allowed to call people 'black' anymore?
If a person is black, you can refer to them as black. There is nothing to be ashamed of because a person is black.

It's the use of the term 'coloured' that is frowned upon because this term was applied during the apartheid days in South Africa.

---------- Post added at 15:42 ---------- Previous post was at 15:36 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36038469)
That would be the same US that elected a black president ?

Racial discrimination is bad, absolutely, but by going around saying "black lives matter" you are committing that very act, you are implying other lives do not.

As someone mentioned earlier, its not really a subject for this thread, however, the idiots in those protests are. They have put themselves at risk, those around them at risk, and all their families at risk - and for what ? Nothing, some pointless protest in the UK will make zero difference.

Let's just hope none of them had the virus, or passed it on.
You are confusing the population with the government. It is the government who allow the police to ride roughshod over the lives of black people and discriminate against them in so many ways, including on pay.

I do not accept your view that the slogan implies that other lives do not matter. That's your interpretation, but not what was meant, as I am sure you know, really.

It seems a cruel blow that even the coronavirus seems to discriminate against black people. Unfortunately, there's not a lot we can do about that other than improve their living conditions immediately, and there's fat chance of that.

1andrew1 05-06-2020 15:43
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveeb (Post 36038475)
Summed up very eloquently :tu:
+1

Sephiroth 05-06-2020 16:16
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36038480)
If a person is black, you can refer to them as black. There is nothing to be ashamed of because a person is black.

It's the use of the term 'coloured' that is frowned upon because this term was applied during the apartheid days in South Africa.

---------- Post added at 15:42 ---------- Previous post was at 15:36 ----------


<SNIP>
Noit when I lived there, OB. "Nie Blankes" was the regularly used expression on signs etc when discriminating.

The damned woke brigade are responsible for deprecating the term "coloured". Which are worse? The woke brigade or the lycra brigade?

Oh and now we have the woke preferred word "BAME" - no doubt soon to be BAME+LGBT1QZ or summat equally stupid.

papa smurf 05-06-2020 16:18
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36038484)
Noit when I lived there, OB. "Nie Blankes" was the regularly used expression on signs etc when discriminating.

The damned woke brigade are responsible for deprecating the term "coloured". Which are worse? The woke brigade or the lycra brigade?

Oh and now we have the woke preferred word "BAME" - no doubt soon to be BAME+LGBT1QZ or summat equally stupid.
We just refer to them as the alphabet people in my house.
seems to cover most groups.

Damien 05-06-2020 16:21
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36038473)
Have to disagree - if there was a modifier "black lives matter more" or "only black lives matter", you would have a point - but there isn’t.
Exactly, and there is another possible modifier that is more true to the intention of the statement: "Black Lives Matter too"

Paul 05-06-2020 16:29
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36038473)
Have to disagree - if there was a modifier "black lives matter more" or "only black lives matter", you would have a point - but there isn’t.
You can disagree all you want, since I also disagree with you.
All lives matter, simple as that, saying only one subset matter is incorrect.

Quote:
I do not accept your view that the slogan implies that other lives do not matter. That's your interpretation
Of course its my interpretation, who elses would it be ?
Just like everyone has their own views, and again, I disagree with you.

We could go around in circles with this all day, and since its not the subject of this topic, I suggest we agree to disagree, and move on.


In fact, its probably time for this whole thread to move back on topic .. please.

peanut 05-06-2020 17:34
Re: Coronavirus
 
So we've now sadly hit 40,000 deaths (the second only country to reach this figure) and Bozo declares himself 'very proud' of coronavirus response. He's starting to sound more like Trump.

The R number has reached 1 in the North-west and South West, so will there be another (regional) lock down?

downquark1 05-06-2020 17:43
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038503)
The R number has reached 1 in the North-west and South West, so will there be another (regional) lock down?
The uncertainty on these results are so high they could all be above 1 or below 1.

nomadking 05-06-2020 18:14
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36038473)
Have to disagree - if there was a modifier "black lives matter more" or "only black lives matter", you would have a point - but there isn’t.

Saying "All Lives Matter" redirects the attention from black lives, who are the ones in peril - in the USA, black people are twice as likely to be killed by a police officer while unarmed, compared to a white individual - according to a 2015 study, African Americans died at the hands of police at a rate of 7.2 per million, while whites were killed at a rate of 2.9 per million. Saying "Black Lives Matter" isn't equivalent to saying other lives don't, but rather that Black lives should matter as much as others.

A friend of mine sent me this
If Black people commit more crime, get into more confrontations with police, resist arrest more often and in a more aggressive manner, then obviously they are going to be at more risk. Then again they are more likely to be killed by another Black person, especially gang related crime. Also probably more likely to shoot a police officer. Just because somebody is found to be unarmed, doesn't meant they couldn't have been armed, and didn't behave in a manner suggesting they might be(eg reaching towards their pocket). It only takes seconds to pull a hidden gun and shoot the police officer.

Quote:
The County and City of Los Angeles are the “gang capital” of the nation. There are more than 450 active gangs in the City of Los Angeles. Many of these gangs have been in existence for over 50 years. These gangs have a combined membership of over 45,000 individuals.
...
Gangs are not a new phenomenon. During the last three years, there were over 16,398 verified violent gang crimes in the City of Los Angeles. These include 491 homicides, nearly 7,047 felony assaults, approximately 5,518 robberies and just under 98 rapes.
Remember 2 of the officers were not White. If he hadn't resisted and needed to be restrained by multiple officers, then it's possible he would be now sitting at home facing no charges over the counterfeit money.


Quote:
He said: "Firstly, these are not just quarrels between kids. These are mass assassinations.
"It takes organisation to get a dozen teenagers to chase someone through a shopping centre and stab that particular individual, get the weapons there and so on.
"It is not going to be solved by more police officers. You'd have to have North Korean levels of police officers on the street to be where these things happen because they're organised.
"Secondly, we have to be honest about who is dying and where. There are two young people dying every week in our city. Almost all of them are black. Almost all of them are being killed by other black youngsters.
"And aside from the killing, there are thousands who are being stabbed and put in hospitals. There's a big thing now about stabbing people in the anus, so they have to wear colostomy bags and humiliating them."

jfman 05-06-2020 18:18
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36038503)
So we've now sadly hit 40,000 deaths (the second only country to reach this figure) and Bozo declares himself 'very proud' of coronavirus response. He's starting to sound more like Trump.

The R number has reached 1 in the North-west and South West, so will there be another (regional) lock down?
It's inevitable until we put in place a serious, and competent test, trace and isolate system.

Face masks and quarantining those coming in from overseas are months too late but we got there. Maybe by 100,000 deaths we will start taking this seriously.

Chris 05-06-2020 18:38
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038509)
It's inevitable until we put in place a serious, and competent test, trace and isolate system.

Face masks and quarantining those coming in from overseas are months too late but we got there. Maybe by 100,000 deaths we will start taking this seriously.
Whatever the shortcomings of our official response, they were absolutely right on one point. At the outset, the need to maintain public support for the lockdown was cited as a reason for not imposing it too soon. The behaviour of far too many complete fools over the last couple of weeks have borne out that official concern with how compliant the British public is likely to be in situations like this. In my own locality, the police, council and national park officials have had to deploy fairly extreme measures to control the crowds who flocked to the countryside outside Glasgow last weekend. Some of the scenes we have personally witnessed over the last week have been totally depressing.

RichardCoulter 05-06-2020 18:45
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36038321)
R4 "You and Yours" featured this yesterday and already people have been scammed out of money and personal data.

Scammers spoof the telephone number to look like the track and trace number that the government publicised. Yawning security failure.
Thanks, it was very useful. This is the link if anybody else would like to listen to it:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jmmq

'You & Yours hears from critics of the Government's new "Test and Trac"k system, who say it leaves the door open for scammers. The new scheme will see people who are at risk of contracting Coronavirus being contacted by phone or text. Critics say criminals are able to "spoof" phone and text numbers to look like the official one, and warnings put out by the government to the public do not go far enough.'

nomadking 05-06-2020 18:48
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038509)
It's inevitable until we put in place a serious, and competent test, trace and isolate system.

Face masks and quarantining those coming in from overseas are months too late but we got there. Maybe by 100,000 deaths we will start taking this seriously.

Edit: nice to see nomadking taking up the mantle ...
I'm taking up the mantle for something called TRUTH. Strange concept it appears and one that also appears not to be tolerated.

Labour MP Diane Abbott had to send her son to a private school to keep him away from bad influences.
Quote:
I knew what could happen to my son if he was sent to the wrong school and got in with the wrong crowd.
I realised they were subjected to peer *pressure and when that happens it’s very hard for a mother to save her son.
Once a black boy is lost to the world of gangs it’s very hard to get them back and I was genuinely very fearful of what could happen.
The quote about stabbings was from Trevor Phillips(yes that one).


You can't do simple population comparisons on anything, without actually looking at all the factors.


Nobody seems to be asking why he needed to be restrained and for that length of time. The length of time would have been dictated by HIS actions and the ability of the OTHER officers to get him under control. Would you like to have been potentially spat upon in the current situation or even before? A little old black lady wouldn't have needed to be restrained in such a manner, so race ISN'T a factor, being aggressive and having to be restrained IS, whatever the race. ANYBODY who has to be heavily restrained puts THEMSELVES at risk.

---------- Post added at 18:48 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36038514)
Thanks, it was very useful. This is the link if anybody else would like to listen to it:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jmmq

'You & Yours hears from critics of the Government's new "Test and Trac"k system, who say it leaves the door open for scammers. The new scheme will see people who are at risk of contracting Coronavirus being contacted by phone or text. Critics say criminals are able to "spoof" phone and text numbers to look like the official one, and warnings put out by the government to the public do not go far enough.'
So why don't other countries suffer the same problems?:confused: How else are you meant to do it?:rolleyes:

Paul 05-06-2020 18:48
Re: Coronavirus
 
I asked everyone to move on, so please do so.

This is a virus topic - any further off topic posts will be removed.

Thanks.

jfman 05-06-2020 19:29
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36038513)
Whatever the shortcomings of our official response, they were absolutely right on one point. At the outset, the need to maintain public support for the lockdown was cited as a reason for not imposing it too soon. The behaviour of far too many complete fools over the last couple of weeks have borne out that official concern with how compliant the British public is likely to be in situations like this. In my own locality, the police, council and national park officials have had to deploy fairly extreme measures to control the crowds who flocked to the countryside outside Glasgow last weekend. Some of the scenes we have personally witnessed over the last week have been totally depressing.
The counter argument being that an earlier lockdown would have saved thousands of lives and infections. If lockdowns inevitably fail because people get bored, or the state media gushes over VE Day street parties, then the thousands of lives lost prior are for nothing anyway if unable to develop a functioning track, trace, isolate system in that time.

The only reason to delay would be if you genuinely believed the infections caused before would yield significant immunity to slow later spread. None of the large scale antibody testing (anywhere in the world) indicate this being likely.

nomadking 05-06-2020 19:54
Re: Coronavirus
 
You just have to look at examples of where people are questioned as to why they are at the beach or wherever. They simply trot out phrases that the media having been constantly giving them as excuses.:mad:
Quote:
The policy has been used in such countries as Hong Kong, Australia, Germany and Belgium - however, widespread contact tracing was initially abandoned in the UK when cases soared in March.

...
March 26: Deputy chief medical officer Dr Jenny Harries says contact tracing and widespread community testing is "not an appropriate mechanism as we go forward".
Contact tracing appears to have previously been in place in the UK, but obviously had little effect. Just as it seems to have had little effect in Italy.

Hugh 05-06-2020 20:00
Re: Coronavirus
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...box=1591381448
Quote:
Tory MP Bob Seely apologises for attending lockdown-breaking barbeque with journalists

A Conservative MP has apologised after attending a barbeque where at least four other people were present against lockdown rules.

Bob Seely, the Tory MP for the Isle of Wight, attended the event in his constituency at a time when the public was told they could meet just one other person in a public space, not a garden.

The gathering was hosted by Freddy Gray, the Spectator magazine’s deputy editor, in the village of Seaview on the island.

Also in attendance were his wife, as well as Richard Tice, the chairman of the Brexit Party, and his partner, the political journalist Isabel Oakeshott.

jfman 05-06-2020 20:09
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038524)
You just have to look at examples of where people are questioned as to why they are at the beach or wherever. They simply trot out phrases that the media having been constantly giving them as excuses.:mad:
Contact tracing appears to have previously been in place in the UK, but obviously had little effect. Just as it seems to have had little effect in Italy.
Italy didn’t have contact tracing. We abandoned it because it was too hard/too expensive and we didn’t screen those coming into the country.

Nice to selectively quote Jenny Harries though, someone who if she told me the time I’d check my watch. Conflicting messaging on face masks, contact tracing, etc. I come back to the question I routinely ask how many people need to die before we accept that our scientists aren’t “world leading” in this field? Worth noting she said that as we went into lockdown - contact tracing less appropriate when you can only infect your own household.

This doesn’t detract from the fact it’s necessary going forward for this to work or we are back into lockdown with the emergency brake.

papa smurf 05-06-2020 20:22
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36038526)
It's fine # BBQ'S matter,it's a valid excuse.

nomadking 05-06-2020 20:37
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038527)
Italy didn’t have contact tracing. We abandoned it because it was too hard/too expensive and we didn’t screen those coming into the country.

Nice to selectively quote Jenny Harries though, someone who if she told me the time I’d check my watch. Conflicting messaging on face masks, contact tracing, etc. I come back to the question I routinely ask how many people need to die before we accept that our scientists aren’t “world leading” in this field? Worth noting she said that as we went into lockdown - contact tracing less appropriate when you can only infect your own household.

This doesn’t detract from the fact it’s necessary going forward for this to work or we are back into lockdown with the emergency brake.
Italy DID have contact tracing.
From article of March 12th.
Quote:
To add to the burden, hospitals in Italy depend on medical personnel to try to trace the contacts that people who test positive have had with others. One doctor in Bologna, who asked not to be named, said he had spent a 12-hour day tracing people who had been in contact with just one positive patient, to ensure those who next need testing are found.
“You can do that if the number of cases remains two to three,” the doctor said. “But if they grow, something has to give. The system will implode if we continue to test everyone actively and then have to do all this.”
I WASN'T being selective. It's just happens to be in the SAME article as the other quote in the post. Same as this one in the SAME article.
Quote:
March 12: Contact tracing and widespread community testing is abandoned as the Government moves into the "delay" stage of its coronavirus plan, with England's chief medical officer Professor Chris Whitty saying it is "no longer necessary for us to identify every case."
Any tracing, lockdown, etc will never work in the UK, as there are a huge number of idiots ignoring it all.

Even in South Korea, tracing is having it's problems, as I've previously highlighted.:rolleyes:
Quote:
More than 100 cases have been linked to nightlife venues in the South Korean capital, and on Saturday, Seoul ordered all clubs and bars to temporarily close.
The cluster has caused alarm in South Korea, which was among the first countries outside of China to deal with a large-scale coronavirus outbreak. In recent weeks, however, authorities had begun loosening restrictions as case numbers fell.
...
Although all three venues linked to the cluster asked for customers' full names and phone numbers on arrival, the city has been unable to contact almost 2,000 club-goers -- meaning they either avoided the calls or gave a false number, Seoul's mayor Park Won-soon said Monday.
The city has had to employ other measures to track them. Using phone signal tower records, the city found that 10,905 people were in the vicinity of the clubs in the nightlife suburb of Itaewon between April 24 and May 6. Authorities have texted them all, saying they should get tested. Officials have also used credit cards to track almost 500 people, who have been asked to get tested and self-quarantine.
Quote:
The authorities, with the backing of of 8,600 police officers, are also trying identify people from CCTV footage in the clubs.
...
About 35,000 people have been tested in relation to the club cluster. The number of new daily cases nationally reached 29 on Thursday, 20 of which were tied to Itaewon. Infections had been under 20 for the previous three weeks.
Now extrapolate that to all the major towns and cities in the UK. Never, ever going to work. Even if the extreme measures the authorities in South Korea are allowed to take, were allowed to be used in the UK.

The future(15th June) legal requirement for face masks or coverings on public transport is going to be fun to watch. Hardly anyone follows that at the moment.

jfman 05-06-2020 20:52
Re: Coronavirus
 
Nomadking you are being selective, as ever. Italian hospitals were trying to contact trace - that isn’t the same as a national contact tracing system, driven by apps, digital data, AND who individuals can confirm they have been in contact with. The two aren’t comparable.

Your persistence in holding up South Korea’s problems as comparable with ours are laughable. Their problems are not having 100% success. Our problems are trying to have any meaningful success at all.

What do you mean “were allowed to be used in the UK” - we’ve left the EU and taken back control. We have a Parliament that legislates for what is permissible in this country.

You’ve finally quoted something relevant - South Korea ploughing thousands of tests at identifying cases and throwing resource at it. We, on the other hand as you appropriately quote for once, have Whitty who doesn’t see the value in trying to find every case. In a pandemic. Sums it up and we will continue to fail until the Government wake up to that.

Like herd immunity week though I expect the usual suspects in the thread to perform a sudden volte face when Government policy finally changes.

For those interested in economic growth there are forecasts that South Korea could still grow 0.1% this year - demonstrating the value in a working response to Coronavirus.

Hom3r 05-06-2020 20:55
Re: Coronavirus
 
Can anymore things go wrong?

Not only could I about to be made redundant, but my sister is showing COVID-19 symptons and has had a test. so now we play the waiting game.

RichardCoulter 05-06-2020 21:12
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36038540)
Can anymore things go wrong?

Not only could I about to be made redundant, but my sister is showing COVID-19 symptons and has had a test. so now we play the waiting game.
You're not having much luck, especially with your mum. I really hope that things start to improve for you and your family.

Hom3r 05-06-2020 21:29
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36038543)
You're not having much luck, especially with your mum. I really hope that things start to improve for you and your family.

Thanks, 2020 can truely do one.

nomadking 05-06-2020 21:32
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038539)
Nomadking you are being selective, as ever. Italian hospitals were trying to contact trace - that isn’t the same as a national contact tracing system, driven by apps, digital data, AND who individuals can confirm they have been in contact with. The two aren’t comparable.

Your persistence in holding up South Korea’s problems as comparable with ours are laughable. Their problems are not having 100% success. Our problems are trying to have any meaningful success at all.

What do you mean “were allowed to be used in the UK” - we’ve left the EU and taken back control. We have a Parliament that legislates for what is permissible in this country.

You’ve finally quoted something relevant - South Korea ploughing thousands of tests at identifying cases and throwing resource at it. We, on the other hand as you appropriately quote for once, have Whitty who doesn’t see the value in trying to find every case. In a pandemic. Sums it up and we will continue to fail until the Government wake up to that.

Like herd immunity week though I expect the usual suspects in the thread to perform a sudden volte face when Government policy finally changes.
AGAIN, I'm NOT being selective. I'm NOT trawling hundreds of articles looking for the "required" quote. I'm also not prepared to simply blindly accept the utter garbage the UK media throws out. It just happened to be in the SAME article of a comparison between South Korea and Italy.
Quote:
Italy started out testing widely, then narrowed the focus so that now, the authorities don’t have to process hundreds of thousands of tests. But there’s a trade-off: They can’t see what’s coming and are trying to curb the movements of the country’s entire population of 60 million people to contain the disease.
Now imagine extrapolating requiring 8,600 police officers and TWO thousand unidentified people, for EACH AND EVERY night club area in the UK.:rolleyes: Is widespread use of phone data and CCTV and credit card details accepted in the UK? Of course not. South Korea put there systems in place after their 2015 MERS(Middle East Respiratory Syndrome) outbreak. As I've also previously pointed out, in South Korea they readily wear face masks/coverings. If South Korea hadn't had all their LAWS and systems in place BEFORE all this, then they would've also been badly affected. They identified a case where somebody was travelling to Japan via South Korea. By identifying that problem person, they prevented more cases occurring in Japan.


Quote:
Seoul says it is building on lessons learned from an outbreak of Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) in 2015 and working to make as much information available as possible to the public. It has embarked on a massive testing program, including people who have very mild illness, or perhaps don’t even have symptoms, but who may be able to infect others. This includes enforcing a law that grants the government wide authority to access data: CCTV footage, GPS tracking data from phones and cars, credit card transactions, immigration entry information, and other personal details of people confirmed to have an infectious disease. The authorities can then make some of this public, so anyone who may have been exposed can get themselves - or their friends and family members - tested.
Doesn't look like South Korea has an app.



Quote:
Testing of the Immuni contact-tracing app, designed to help Italy manage phase two of the coronavirus crisis, is to start from Monday June 8th after the country's privacy ombudsman gave the go-ahead.

The first trials of the app will begin in the regions of Liguria, Puglia, Marche and Abruzzo before later being rolled out nationwide, possibly by the following Monday, June 15th.
"We’re starting with a test that will last several days and then, next week or the week after, it will be extended to everyone," stated Deputy Health Minister Pierpaolo Sileri.
...
Use of the app is voluntary. Developed by Milan-based startup Bending Spoons, it works using Bluetooth.
After installation, it requires some basic personal details including your town of residence. After that, “the system will function automatically”, according the app's official website.
If two smartphones with the app installed are less than one metre apart, they exchange automatically generated codes which make it possible to trace previous contacts in case one of the users is diagnosed with the virus.
Isn't that what the UK media have been whinging about? Then again, what haven't they whinged about?

Quote:
However, France, the UK and Norway - one of the first European countries to launch its app - are all using a technology in which a central server holds data on who came into contact with an infected person. Proponents of this approach say this facilitates the work of health officials but critics claim it raises privacy concerns.

1andrew1 05-06-2020 22:49
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038547)
Isn't that what the UK media have been whinging about? Then again, what haven't they whinged about?
Not sure about the use of the word whinging is correct. The media and social media reported concerns about the app's effectiveness and it was discussed in this very thread.

Damien 05-06-2020 23:00
Re: Coronavirus
 
Not sure where the app is anyway. They've been downplaying it recently that when it does come out it won't be playing a central role, or at least that what it seems. Personally I still think their attempt to get around iOS's Bluetooth protections won't really work at any sort of scale.

nomadking 05-06-2020 23:25
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36038553)
Not sure where the app is anyway. They've been downplaying it recently that when it does come out it won't be playing a central role, or at least that what it seems. Personally I still think their attempt to get around iOS's Bluetooth protections won't really work at any sort of scale.
Strange that other countries don't have the same concerns.:rolleyes: Eg Norway.
April 16th.

Quote:
Smittestopp (Infection Stop) is a new smartphone app for iOS and Android. The app is designed to help health authorities limit the spread of coronavirus, which has so far claimed more than 150 lives in Norway.
...

The app uses a smartphone's built-in location services features along with Bluetooth to detect other nearby phones with the app installed.

Quote:
17 May 2020 - Norway's Smittestopp app, or “infection stop”, launched in mid-April but only one-fifth of its adult population are actively using it.

Quote:
Others, though, are still forging ahead with the centralised approach. France's digital minister has said it intends to launch its StopCovid app by 2 June, and is attempting to press Apple into a U-turn of its own.
"Apple could have helped us make the application work even better on the iPhone," said digital minister Cédric O on Tuesday. "They have wished not to do so. I regret this."

1andrew1 05-06-2020 23:36
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36038553)
Not sure where the app is anyway. They've been downplaying it recently that when it does come out it won't be playing a central role, or at least that what it seems. Personally I still think their attempt to get around iOS's Bluetooth protections won't really work at any sort of scale.
Quote:
Speaking on the BBC's Question Time on Thursday, Mr Zahawi [Business Minister] said: "The app, we are working flat out. We want to make sure it actually does everything it needs to do and will be in place this month.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52931232
Let's see...

---------- Post added at 23:36 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038557)
Strange that other countries don't have the same concerns.:rolleyes: Eg Norway.
April 16th.
I'm slightly confused as you then proceed to quote the following from an unnamed source stating France does have concerns.
Quote:
Apple could have helped us make the application work even better on the iPhone," said digital minister Cédric O on Tuesday. "They have wished not to do so. I regret this."

jfman 05-06-2020 23:47
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038547)
AGAIN, I'm NOT being selective. I'm NOT trawling hundreds of articles looking for the "required" quote. I'm also not prepared to simply blindly accept the utter garbage the UK media throws out. It just happened to be in the SAME article of a comparison between South Korea and Italy.

Now imagine extrapolating requiring 8,600 police officers and TWO thousand unidentified people, for EACH AND EVERY night club area in the UK.:rolleyes: Is widespread use of phone data and CCTV and credit card details accepted in the UK? Of course not. South Korea put there systems in place after their 2015 MERS(Middle East Respiratory Syndrome) outbreak. As I've also previously pointed out, in South Korea they readily wear face masks/coverings. If South Korea hadn't had all their LAWS and systems in place BEFORE all this, then they would've also been badly affected. They identified a case where somebody was travelling to Japan via South Korea. By identifying that problem person, they prevented more cases occurring in Japan.

Doesn't look like South Korea has an app.

Isn't that what the UK media have been whinging about? Then again, what haven't they whinged about?
Watch The country that beat the virus - a Channel 4 documentary to see what we’ve done vs South Korea. While not a fan of the title, it shows what routine, effective measures to contain pandemics apply to countries that lack English exceptionalism.

You’re also making up completely excessive and ridiculous requirements to simply claim we couldn’t do it. 2,000 people per night club? Where does it say South Korea have that?

Do you think South Korea only has one night club?

You’re clutching at the very end of a thin straw with your arguments here. And I’ve seen you copy and paste the same irrelevant evidence often enough to know you are being selective and ignoring the plethora of evidence and statistics out there to support the idea that South Korea have handled this well and England have not.

Given the daily differences and trends for infection and death counts in the devolved administrations I’m not sure it’s fair to tar them with the same brush. Of the 357 deaths added to the figures only 12 were in Scotland, 4 in Wales and 1 in Northern Ireland. With healthcare being a devolved matter it’s going to be interesting to see these figures move in the next weeks and months. No doubt England’s figure will be higher for “cultural” reasons or counting discrepancies as is the norm.

Damien 06-06-2020 09:21
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038557)
Strange that other countries don't have the same concerns.:rolleyes: Eg Norway.
April 16th.
Well, France seems to have a concern considering they're stating Apple could have made it work better. Make it better than doing what all Governments want IT firms to do with is weaken privacy measures in their technologies.

Besides I am not talking about any Government has concerns about, I am talking about how effective it will be in practice.

nomadking 06-06-2020 09:31
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36038558)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52931232
Let's see...

---------- Post added at 23:36 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------


I'm slightly confused as you then proceed to quote the following from an unnamed source stating France does have concerns.
But they got around them. Apple making it more difficult doesn't mean they have got around the problems and gone ahead with it anyway. A central point is that NOBODY had tracing apps in place before all this.

Damien 06-06-2020 09:34
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038575)
But they got around them. Apple making it more difficult doesn't mean they have got around the problems and gone ahead with it anyway. A central point is that NOBODY had tracing apps in place before all this.
But have they got around the problems? Just because they released something doesn't mean it's working well. The French Minister didn't say they got around the problem, they said Apple could make it work better which presumably means they are hitting issues around Bluetooth.

jfman 06-06-2020 09:53
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038575)
But they got around them. Apple making it more difficult doesn't mean they have got around the problems and gone ahead with it anyway. A central point is that NOBODY had tracing apps in place before all this.
Yet South Korea developed one in days. The central point is that you will simply throw around any spurious evidence around to defend the English response at all costs.

Is there a body count at which you might step back and say it went badly? 100,000? 250,000?

nomadking 06-06-2020 10:20
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038562)
Watch The country that beat the virus - a Channel 4 documentary to see what we’ve done vs South Korea. While not a fan of the title, it shows what routine, effective measures to contain pandemics apply to countries that lack English exceptionalism.

You’re also making up completely excessive and ridiculous requirements to simply claim we couldn’t do it. 2,000 people per night club? Where does it say South Korea have that?

Do you think South Korea only has one night club?

You’re clutching at the very end of a thin straw with your arguments here. And I’ve seen you copy and paste the same irrelevant evidence often enough to know you are being selective and ignoring the plethora of evidence and statistics out there to support the idea that South Korea have handled this well and England have not.

Given the daily differences and trends for infection and death counts in the devolved administrations I’m not sure it’s fair to tar them with the same brush. Of the 357 deaths added to the figures only 12 were in Scotland, 4 in Wales and 1 in Northern Ireland. With healthcare being a devolved matter it’s going to be interesting to see these figures move in the next weeks and months. No doubt England’s figure will be higher for “cultural” reasons or counting discrepancies as is the norm.
I did watch it. I saw all the people wearing face masks as I said. I also referred to the person travelling to Japan via South Korea that was intercepted that was in that programme. They only had in the main, ONE point of introduction, IE China. By the time it arrived in the UK, it was coming in from just about everywhere, China, Germany, Italy, Austria etc. That meant MORE places around the UK where it was introduced and spread.

In general, in countries like Japan and South Korea, the people readily wear face masks. That can be seen EACH year with a "standard" flu outbreak.

As the programme said, The UK DID have contact tracing.

The UK response was based upon previous flu outbreaks which had been less serious. Even South Korea was caught out by their more serious MERS outbreak in 2015. That influenced their future planning. That also meant their society was more amenable to the level of contact tracing required. Which of their measures is accepted in the UK? Facial recognition on CCTV? No. Checking of credit card data? No. Checking of mobile phones? No. Publishing limited details of infected people? Not a chance.

If the MERS outbreak hadn't happened there previously, then even South Korea wouldn't have been prepared for COVID-19.

In the UK hand sanitisers wouldn't last long inside a lift. People have ripped them off the walls in hospitals.

The South Koreans abandoned contact tracing in the city of Daegu because the numbers involved was too large. The response of the people of the city(2.5m of them, think Birmingham) was to VOLUNTARILY stay at home. Yet at one hospital 100 out of 102 caught the virus. Not exactly a success story.

The overwhelming reason for the differences is the morons in this country, especially in the media. The outbreak in Daegu was largely down to a moron who initially refused to be tested.

jfman 06-06-2020 10:37
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038579)
I did watch it. I saw all the people wearing face masks as I said. I also referred to the person travelling to Japan via South Korea that was intercepted that was in that programme. They only had in the main, ONE point of introduction, IE China. By the time it arrived in the UK, it was coming in from just about everywhere, China, Germany, Italy, Austria etc. That meant MORE places around the UK where it was introduced and spread.
One that they caught was referenced in the programme. There have been others (else surely the virus wouldn’t be present at all?). What they’ve shown is how to target individual infections and break chains of transmission.

This applies whether in villages, towns, cities, at train stations, in airports.

They have a well oiled machine designed to find and stamp out the virus.

We’ve scientific advisers that says it’s too hard and shrug their shoulders. It’s a bad flu, after all. :confused:

Quote:
In general, in countries like Japan and South Korea, the people readily wear face masks. That can be seen EACH year with a "standard" flu outbreak.
And the Government here advised against.
Quote:
As the programme said, The UK DID have contact tracing.
And abandoned it because without airport screening and large scale testing it’s pissing in the wind. All because we took the decision it wasn’t worth identifying individual cases to stamp out the outbreak.

That was a political choice along with “herd immunity week“.

Quote:
The UK response was based upon previous flu outbreaks which had been less serious. Even South Korea was caught out by their more serious MERS outbreak in 2015. That influenced their future planning. That also meant their society was more amenable to the level of contact tracing required. Which of their measures is accepted in the UK? Facial recognition on CCTV? No. Checking of credit card data? No. Checking of mobile phones? No. Publishing limited details of infected people? Not a chance.
The word you are looking for is flawed, Nomadking. The response was flawed.

What measures the UK public would tolerate would vary depending on what options you were giving them - framed against a choice of lockdowns and the economy tanking very quickly people would be amenable to some of the measures in South Korea.

Quote:
If the MERS outbreak hadn't happened there previously, then even South Korea wouldn't have been prepared for COVID-19.
Finally, a sensible point. Yes, South Korea are world leaders in this field based on experience. Not guesswork.

Quote:
In the UK hand sanitisers wouldn't last long inside a lift. People have ripped them off the walls in hospitals.

The South Koreans abandoned contact tracing in the city of Daegu because the numbers involved were too large. The response of the people of the city(2.5m of them, think Birmingham) was to VOLUNTARILY stay at home. Yet at a hospital 100 out of 102 caught the virus. Not exactly a success story.
Back to your selective use of evidence once more. Look at the headline infection and death rates in South Korea and less severe economic impact.

You are putting up the straw man that if South Korea have ANY INFECTIONS AT ALL that is failure.

Any impartial observer, not desperate to defend our response at any cost would happily swap it for the 99.99% of times South Korea get it right.
Quote:
The overwhelming reason for the differences is the morons in this country, especially in the media. The outbreak in Daegu was largely down to a moron who initially refused to be tested.
No individual can beat the pandemic. People get infected in workplaces, in cars, at home and on public transport.

This requires state infrastructure in place to test, trace and isolate. Again you are simply trying to absolve the Government of blame.

While those on benefits can sit at home with their feed up in a global pandemic the workforce needs the state to make going to work and carrying out relatively normal activities to be made as safe as possible. That requires test, trace and isolate.

nomadking 06-06-2020 10:58
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038578)
Yet South Korea developed one in days. The central point is that you will simply throw around any spurious evidence around to defend the English response at all costs.

Is there a body count at which you might step back and say it went badly? 100,000? 250,000?
They developed an app in days? All they did was publish limited details eg "male, aged 58, who is a Banker has passed in this area". They DIDN'T have one that said "somebody with the virus has been within 2m of you". Simply knowing that somebody has been in the same large building(eg hotel), isn't much use. All South Korea have is a DATABASE, of info that wouldn't be allowed in the UK.:rolleyes:



There is of course zilch evidence that apps make the slightest difference.

jfman 06-06-2020 11:11
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038581)
They developed an app in days? All they did was publish limited details eg "male, aged 58, who is a Banker has passed in this area". They DIDN'T have one that said "somebody with the virus has been within 2m of you". Simply knowing that somebody has been in the same large building(eg hotel), isn't much use. All South Korea have is a DATABASE, of info that wouldn't be allowed in the UK.:rolleyes:

There is of course zilch evidence that apps make the slightest difference.
Selective quotation of post. Check.

Ah once again the South Korean response “isn’t much use”.

How many have to die before you recognise ours “isn’t much use”? 100,000? 250,000?

Knowing you’ve been in a hotel where someone has Coronavirus I’d say is very useful information. Isolate, arrange a test, positive - get medical care if appropriate and isolate. Negative: move on with your live as normal. Easy.

Positive: those you’ve been in contact with between dates X and Y do the same. Negative: they continue on with their lives unaware.

In South Korea its bread and butter stuff. Here, it’s “too hard”.

“Not allowed in UK” - Government makes our laws.

You just don’t get it, do you?

1andrew1 06-06-2020 11:21
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038579)
The overwhelming reason for the differences is the morons in this country, especially in the media.
I'm not sure the UK's population is more moronic than other countries and I fail to see why the media is to blame.
However, a delayed lock down, open-doors policy with flights, ineptness with track and trace, delayed testing programme, pushing infected people into care homes, delays with PPE have sadly contributed to the UK's higher death rate.

nomadking 06-06-2020 11:21
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36038580)
One that they caught was referenced in the programme. There have been others (else surely the virus wouldn’t be present at all?). What they’ve shown is how to target individual infections and break chains of transmission.

This applies whether in villages, towns, cities, at train stations, in airports.

They have a well oiled machine designed to find and stamp out the virus.

We’ve scientific advisers that says it’s too hard and shrug their shoulders. It’s a bad flu, after all. :confused:

And the Government here advised against.

And abandoned it because without airport screening and large scale testing it’s pissing in the wind. All because we took the decision it wasn’t worth identifying individual cases to stamp out the outbreak.

That was a political choice along with “herd immunity week“.

The word you are looking for is flawed, Nomadking. The response was flawed.

What measures the UK public would tolerate would vary depending on what options you were giving them - framed against a choice of lockdowns and the economy tanking very quickly people would be amenable to some of the measures in South Korea.

Finally, a sensible point. Yes, South Korea are world leaders in this field based on experience. Not guesswork.

Back to your selective use of evidence once more. Look at the headline infection and death rates in South Korea and less severe economic impact.

You are putting up the straw man that if South Korea have ANY INFECTIONS AT ALL that is failure.

Any impartial observer, not desperate to defend our response at any cost would happily swap it for the 99.99% of times South Korea get it right.


No individual can beat the pandemic. People get infected in workplaces, in cars, at home and on public transport.

This requires state infrastructure in place to test, trace and isolate. Again you are simply trying to absolve the Government of blame.

While those on benefits can sit at home with their feed up in a global pandemic the workforce needs the state to make going to work and carrying out relatively normal activities to be made as safe as possible. That requires test, trace and isolate.
The South Korea experience with MERS, DIDN'T happen in the UK. That influenced SCIENTIFIC advice in the UK.


The queues outside KFC etc, clearly demonstrate those in UK are a bunch of morons and nothing will work.


On which planet would people in the UK have allowed the things that were in place in South Korea? What other countries followed the South Korea example? Even South Korea didn't until recently.:rolleyes:



Quote:
The World Health Organization (WHO) has changed its advice on face masks, saying they should be worn in public to help stop the spread of coronavirus.
...
At the same time, the WHO stressed that face masks were just one of a range of tools that could be used to reduce the risk of transmission - and that they should not give people a false sense of protection.
"Masks on their own will not protect you from Covid-19," said WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus.
So it was just the UK?:rolleyes:

Quote:
The organisation said its new guidance had been prompted by studies over recent weeks. "We are advising governments to encourage that the general public wear a mask," Dr Van Kerkhove said.
February 2010 report
Quote:
43. HPA believes that the practical issues for public use as laid out above, coupled with the reduced likelihood, intensity and duration of exposure (compared with healthcare settings), the risk of diluting or complicating messages about home self-isolation, the risks of engendering a false sense of security (eg overemphasis on masks as means of protection compared with hand washing) increase the likelihood that masks worn widely by the public would provide little benefit.
If you have to base a plan on absolutely everything that's even slightly possible, it just gets silly. You have to keep a sense of proportion, and base things on what is most likely to happen, and that in turn will be based upon what has actually happened in the past.


If you have LESS points of introduction, then WHATEVER you do or don't do, will mean LESS cases. If you have people coming in from all over the world, China, Germany, Italy, France, Austria etc, then you will have MORE cases IRRESPECTIVE of what you do or don't do.
Just think of the fictional scenario where somebody deliberately uses people to spread a virus. The more people used in country X compared to country Y, will increase the number of infections in X compared to Y. THAT IS COMMON SENSE.

jfman 06-06-2020 11:27
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36038584)
The South Korea experience with MERS, DIDN'T happen in the UK. That influenced SCIENTIFIC advice in the UK.
Ah English exceptionalism. We don’t need to study global science. If it didn’t happen here it doesn’t count.

Quote:
queues outside KFC etc, clearly demonstrate those in UK are a bunch of morons and nothing will work.
Government has said it’s safe to open.

Quote:
On which planet would people in the UK have allowed the things that were in place in South Korea? What other countries followed the South Korea example? Even South Korea didn't until recently.:rolleyes:
One where the alternatives are rolling lockdowns and a trashed economy.

South Korea didn’t respond to Coronavirus before Coronavirus. :confused: What planet are you on?

Quote:
So it was just the UK?:rolleyes:

February 2010 report

If you have to base a plan on absolutely everything that's even slightly possible, it just gets silly. You have to keep a sense of proportion, and base things on what is most likely to happen, and that in turn will be based upon what has actually happened in the past.
As long as it happened before in Britain, obviously. :confused:

Pierre 06-06-2020 12:45
Re: Coronavirus
 
Well life is pretty much back to normal here, if the school had opened as it should have it would have been even more normal, but typical Labour council played politics instead.

Just need kids football to start again, it can In groups of six, but we’ve Decided to wait until we can train the whole team together.

Don’t even have to wait outside the local coop anymore.

I don’t know anyone that has had the virus, I might of had it, who knows?

Hopefully the panic makers may calm down now and we can start to work towards normality by Autumn.

jfman 06-06-2020 13:22
Re: Coronavirus
 
There's zero chance of normality before Autumn. It's hardly "panic makers" when we have all observed what uncontrolled spread of the virus results in - the highest deaths per capita in the world.

Schools, even where open, are not open to all. Those who can work from home are still doing so - that's demand for retail and hospitality in major towns and cities that will be absent.

While the "mild flu" fantasists can dream of a return to normal ahead of proper mechanisms to control the virus it simply won't happen because of the deadly consequences.


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