Re: Brexit
 

time will tell we wait and see OB

Re: Brexit
 

Is that true? I was led to believe any objection has to include proof that these countries are being negatively affected, seeing as it's a continuation of current status it might be hard for them to prove but then what do any of is here actually know about this

Re: Brexit
 

Article 28 requires agreement (or more accurately, absence of dispute) of all WTO members for a country to enact a change in their tariff and quota schedule. Changing it regardless of objections would be a break in the rules. As I understand it, it's the split of Tariff Relief Quotas between the UK and EU which are causing the most objections.

---------- Post added at 11:56 ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 ----------

The issue is that the current status will not be carried on, even by dint that the size of the market would change from 508 million to 66 million and the balance of good domestically produced will change after leaving.

Here's the formal letter of objection to the UK and EU on the proposed TRQ schedule - https://iegpolicy.agribusinessintell...9A819C09FE2C6E

Re: Brexit
 

Thank you for that information, jonbxx. However, it seems to me that the UK could come up with a solution that satisfies the objectors.

Re: Brexit
 

Some more evidence that a No Deal will adversely impact the UK:

No-deal Brexit could shut down car plants in UK, Japan tells Johnson and Hunt

Re: Brexit
 

Such as?

Re: Brexit
 

Nothing to do with Brexit.
Link

Re: Brexit
 

You didn't read the article did you?

Re: Brexit
 

Meanwhile, in the "its nothing to do with brexit" car news:

Vauxhall Astra: Ellesmere Port manufacture 'depends on Brexit'

Re: Brexit
 

If you don't have time to read the article, Vauxhall are saying no deal = no Ellesmere Port car assembly.

Re: Brexit
 

Bit late to be moaning about car factories considering some of them decided to bugger off before the Brexit thing started ;)

They'll all come rushing back when they find our wages are suddenly lower than those in Slovakia etc :p:

Re: Brexit
 

What they are saying is they want frictionless trade.

So does the EU, by the way.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Some interesting vibes here though from a Anonymous Civil Servant..;)

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rexit#comments

Re: Brexit
 

A depressing read, Den :(

I know some of us have different opinions on this subject ( ;) ) but this current situation is unprecedented. At a point in time where the risk is highest and the stakes never more profound, we have 2 men pandering to the whims of a severely unrepresentative, extremist electorate.

The consolation is that they are, at the end of the day, just politicians and so will never do what they are currently promising.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

You do realise the Civil Service have legal obligations to serve ministers with objectivity and impartiality unless of course you think they are biased.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

You are a sample of one, my assessment was from a sample of many:

Most Conservative members would see party destroyed to achieve Brexit

This is the audience that Johnson & Hunt pander to. "Extremist" seems an appropriate label for what they are prepared to accept to achieve their goal.

BTW, I do not think a "vote of confidence must take place in Parliament" after a new PM is appointed. This would be dictated by the political circumstances at the time.

Re: Brexit
 

Or you could look at it from the principle of carrying out the wish expressed by the electorate. That is democracy and not extremist at all.

The extremists could be said to those who are seeking to overturn the democratic vote.

Re: Brexit
 

Or we are carrying out the will of the most vocal section of a minority of the electorate, if we really cared about the democratic will everyone eligible should've been made to vote and the options for leaving fully covered as although a sizable number probably did vote for no deal I doubt they all did and what's certain is no one campaigned for a no deal exit, why the people who told these whoppers aren't being held to account is beyond me.

Re: Brexit
 

Those that didn't vote either didn't care or didn't understand the consequences, so I don't see the point in a compulsory vote, not that I object to that priciple, which is applied in Australia, for example.

As for the no deal Brexit, I feel sure that most Brexiteers did actually vote for that, although this cannot be proved one way or another.

It certainly appears that a growing number of people are now calling for a no deal Brexit to get it done and dusted, so your second point is moot.

Re: Brexit
 

Not sure what thread you are reading but this specific post sequence relates to the political leaning of the Conservative Party membership.

So getting back to the subject:

https://leave.eu/deselect-these-shameful-tory-mps/

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2019/06/14.jpg

Here's the engine driving the new extremist agenda within the Conservative Party membership.

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------

And here you have it Ladies & Gentlemen, look how far the termites have spread.

The perversion of the past is complete. History is revised and the new reality is set. The People voted for pain ...

Re: Brexit
 

The people voted for leaving the EU. They left it to the politicians to sort out the how.

I am tempted to say there's no gain without pain, but I do not buy the apocalyptic views of the remainers, who seem to be a pretty negative bunch to me.

Re: Brexit
 

No-deal Brexit MAPPED: The 4 EU countries with the most to lose - and how UK will fare

According to a study by the University of Leuven, there will be close to two million job loses across the continent as a result of a no-deal Brexit. New trade barriers, which would come into force instantly on November 1, will deliver a brutal hit to businesses. The data reveals that both Britain and its former EU partners will suffer the consequences if the bloc’s leaders and the next prime minister fail to reach a deal. Brussels’ economy will shrink by 1.54 percent in the immediate aftermath if leaders fail to convince Theresa May’s successor to support her hated divorce deal, whereas Britain’s GDP would take a 4.4 percent hit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11...-Brexit-latest

Re: Brexit
 

A extremely exaggerated generalisatiion of those who voted remain as is those who paint those who voted for leave as some sort of extremists as well.

Re: Brexit
 

I should have clarified that it was the remainers who are trying to overturn the democratic vote that I was referring to.

Re: Brexit
 

Is every General Election trying to overturn the democratic vote of the last GE? Things change; it's been over 3 years since the vote in which less than a third of the population voted for Brexit based on a pack of lies.

Re: Brexit
 

General Election = choose 650 people who in turn take decisions about the government of the country for a period of time not exceeding 5 years.
Referendum = a proposition in favour or against a specific course of action.

Pardon me if I fail to see any congruency between the two, beyond the superficial similarity in marking an X on a piece of paper.

I know it brings you out in hives to be confronted with this truth, but they aren’t the same, the cyclical nature of general elections does not legitimise the demand to re-run the referendum and Parliament had the option of requiring a quorum of the entire electorate, which it decided not to exercise.

On the contrary, the nature of a referendum being to determine a course of action, it is absurd to talk about reversing the result when the action mandated by the result has yet to be implemented. Nothing has changed since 2016, except that those who always planned to try to overturn the democratic result have been working tirelessly to present the result as unachievable in order to justify their demands.

Re: Brexit
 

If nothing has changed why the paranoia about a vote confirming the deal (if there is one) ? Or if no deal is acceptable? Different types of deals or no deal could mean very different things.

The paranoia about another vote is because you know what the outcome would be. Not even a referendum is forever. If the people still want to leave, when they know exactly what is on offer, then fair enough. At the moment they don't know, or have any say on our type of exit. At the moment its a jump down a big black hole with Capt. Idiot at the helm.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

The objection to another vote is its delegitimising effect on the use of referendums as a means of settling constitutional questions in our otherwise parliamentary system.

Nobody here is fooled by the attempt to frame it as a “confirmatory vote” - it is what the continuity remain campaign has planned for it to be ever since they lost the vote in 2016: an attempt to rerun and overturn the original result. The giveaway is the way “no Brexit” is invariably, casually suggested as the alternative to “accept the deal”.

For those of us who genuinely pursued Brexit as a means of restoring democratic control of all areas of our national life, the democratic conduct of referendums is genuinely important. In this case conducting the referendum democratically means implementing the result. If we don’t like the result - I.e. us being outside the EU, not us being told for 3 years how awful it would be if we were - then, and only then, is it democratic to hold another vote. At this stage nothing, absolutely nothing, has actually changed.

Re: Brexit
 

We might be begging for that 'thin gruel' post Brexit. The public were fed up generally with their lot and wanted to protest. It was more to do with austerity and 6 years of Tories, than the EU. The status quo is always a hard sell, change even if it for the worse an easier sell. The Union will break up as a result of this, leaving an insignificant Divided Kingdom.

Re: Brexit
 

Surely the GE in 2017 showed the majority voted for some sort of deal, otherwise UKIP would be the party in government?

According to the result 82% of the electorate voted to support leaving at that point and what was claimed by the Leave supporters. Yet this is not really what can be extrapolated from the GE result, as people voted Labour to stop the Tories and vice versa, with Brexit a secondary consideration.

Seems what people voted for in 2016 must be set in stone for ever and ever, even though what sort of Leave is not clear based on the promises of the Leave campaign. We are told the Government leaflet gave us the facts when it comes to leaving with no deal, but the the problems caused by doing this and outlined in that same leaflet are dismissed as "project fear". Funny that?

---------- Post added at 07:56 ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 ----------

Exactly.

Re: Brexit
 

I do want to make it very clear that I do not hold you in any way representative of the membership polled by YouGov. Your posts and argument are rational & cogent and you have a sense of fairness and pragmatism that seems at odds with what this survey reveals.

I can see how the membership could have veered to the right with the influx of the ex-UKIP members. The challenge, like with Labour, it to bring the consensus back to the rational centre ground again.

---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 ----------

You are correct, 54% voted for parties that ruled out No-Deal.

Re: Brexit
 

Really?

I guess you don't get out much do you, simply relying on what you read on specific web pages, news sites and social media.

That's akin to me saying those who voted remain all eat Sushi, have office jobs, and listen to Radio 4

Re: Brexit
 

Isn't that what they do??:D

Re: Brexit
 

They eat carrots not sushi,and recycle the same bullshit day after day.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Well Farage and all the other idiots showed how childish they are by turning their backs on the EU anthem... Farage not in my name.

Re: Brexit
 

There isn't and has NEVER been a deal on offer from ANYONE. From everything that has been on "offer" we would be looking at a "no deal" situation in 2021 regardless. That is unless the EU continue to hold us captive within their total control. IE Obeying the EU and ECJ, no trade deals allowed, and whatever else they will come up with.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

They may have had some credibility if they turned their backs on their EU pay cheques and pensions as well.

Re: Brexit
 

When there is another General Election, it ISN'T in order to prevent the result of the prior GE. A new government starts, passes laws etc. With the 2nd referendum, it is meant to prevent the prior decision being implemented at all.

Re: Brexit
 

I seem to recall that Parliament voted on something about three times. I'm quite sure it wasn't the new paint colour in the mens' toilets that they were voting on.

Re: Brexit
 

But it WASN'T a deal that would be in place from 2021 onwards.


Even if they had approved that bill, in 2021 we would be in a no deal situation anyway.

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

The deal would still be in place in 2021 as we negotiated the free trade deal.

Re: Brexit
 

What free trade deal? Where does it say that? Unless the EU are planning to hold us hostage with the backstop.
From the Withdrawal Agreement.

Link

IE there is NOT a deal currently in place or even offered.

Re: Brexit
 

It could be extended until December 2022.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...tant-1.3671622

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------

A timely reminder from the Chancellor about the economic impact of a no deal. These do include a generous allowance for free trade deals with the US and others.
https://www.ft.com/content/d63ad18c-...e-8b459ed04726

Re: Brexit
 

"Could be". Even with that it would be no deal in 2023.
As I said there ISN'T a deal currently on offer.

Re: Brexit
 

Whereas the LibDems wearing bright yellow “bollocks to Brexit” t-shirts were so classy.

I have sympathy with their position. They didn’t stand for the EU anthem and were then chastised, being told that it is a matter of respect to stand for a “ country’s “ national anthem!

The EU is not a country, state, principality or nation. They were well within their remit to refuse to give such a political entity that has been formed without any democratic mandate such recognition.

Re: Brexit
 

It's still ours to accept and I'm sure that's what BoJo will do. A few tweaks to some wording and job's a good 'un.

Re: Brexit
 

There ISN'T any sort of proposed ongoing deal to accept or reject in the first place.

Re: Brexit
 

Prepare to be surprised then.

Re: Brexit
 

Either there is currently a deal on offer or there isn't. If there is, what is it? Otherwise the current situation is that a no deal situation will occur.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

So there ISN'T currently a deal to either accept or reject? The claims of a deal having been rejected are nonsense.

Re: Brexit
 

The withdrawal agreement deal is the one agreed between Theresa May and the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

The withdrawal agreement never ever was nor ever will be a "deal". Nice try though.

Re: Brexit
 

The one with continued freedom of movement, following EU rules and the ECJ, EU set tariffs on non-EU goods, no trade deals allowed, and of course paying them a lot of money?

Re: Brexit
 

The withdrawal agreement is a 'deal' which provides the transition period, covers all the legal stuff involved with that and also has a softer political declaration which gives a direction of travel for the subsequent attempts at a trade deal. The future agreement. It is a deal. It is not the final deal.

Everything else is splitting hairs.

Re: Brexit
 

Exactly.

Re: Brexit
 

Bollocks!

Re: Brexit
 

I don't understand why anyone cares. It's a bit rude to the live performers but they got the attention they want and it works for them. Same with the t-shits, a bunch of nothing that somehow invites faux-outrage and pearl clutching.

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------

What would you call the Withdrawal Agreement then?

Re: Brexit
 

Merely a delay of no deal. Therefore talk of a deal having been rejected that would've prevented a no deal situation is nonsense.

Re: Brexit
 

Dead

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Just what the Doctor ordered .. sounds familiar?

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2019/07/1.jpg

---------- Post added at 07:40 ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 ----------

I agree the LibDem stunt was just childish however the Brexit Party actions were just disrespectful. If you are paid to do a job, do it or resign. If they had principles, the very least they could do is not go to Strasbourg. Being the hypocrites they are, they take the money and then turn up as a political stunt. Even Sinn Féin have more principles that this lot ..

Also, where are they told to stand for the "country's" national anthem, do you have a link for this? Here's the background on the EU anthem:

https://europa.eu/european-union/abo...bols/anthem_en

Re: Brexit
 

Oh dear me,have we had a rough night?

Re: Brexit
 

. They are there to remind the EU that the U.K. voted Leave.

https://www.facebook.com/LBC/videos/...435399&sfns=mo

24 seconds in.

Re: Brexit
 

Both parties' acts were for home supporters. The EU knows the 2016 referendum result.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Well it's a deal to cover a interim period whilst an actual trade deal is sorted. It would be incorrect to say this was anything other than a temporary measure but nevertheless it's still a deal. Just depends what deal you're referring too. Obviously it makes no deal less likely due to the backstop, it's the central problem of the whole thing.

That too.

---------- Post added at 08:39 ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 ----------

It's splitting hairs not to call it a deal. I am not arguing the merits of it at the moment.

To be fair corruption probably is a common value not just with the EU but a lot of other nations too. :D

Re: Brexit
 

The only thing Sinn Féin don't do is swear allegiance to the Crown. No different to not acknowledging an anthem. Sinn Féin get paid salaries, claim expenses, and even visit the Houses of Parliament. They just don't enter the chamber itself.

Re: Brexit
 

But that isn't a trade agreement!!

Re: Brexit
 

There isn't a proposed deal to put to the electorate in a 2nd referendum. There isn't a proposed deal that takes us into the future. There is nothing that can be accepted or rejected.


The word "deal" only appears once in the 599 pages of the Withdrawal Agreement.

Re: Brexit
 

'Agreement' itself is a synonym for deal.

Re: Brexit
 

The title of the Agreement is:-
Nothing about avoiding a no deal situation in the near future. There is NO current or previous option to avoid an eventual no deal situation. All current paths lead to no deal. Even if the WA had been fully approved, there would still end up being a no deal situation.

Re: Brexit
 

How is it an agreement or deal when it has been rejected 3 times ?

it's a failed proposal.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

There is no agreement and there is no deal. Parliament has rejected it.

Let's just call it a try-on! :D

Re: Brexit
 

I see no reference to the EU "national" anthem being mentioned. Fake news ..

Re: Brexit
 

No but you will hear it as being referred to as a country's anthem. Unless you are deaf of course.

Re: Brexit
 

They get paid allowances because they are representing their constituents, holding surgeries, replying to emails, etc.

They are not allowed to draw a backbencher’s salary, pension and receieve other grants as they do not attend the House so you seem to be misinformed here.

The Brexit Party MEPs are just 5th columnists who aim is to disrupt the EU Parliament. They are total hypocrites and nothing more than you would expect from something Farage put together.

---------- Post added at 13:35 ---------- Previous post was at 13:34 ----------

You are deaf it seems. That is not what was said ..

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:35 ----------

But you are just superimposing your subjective perspective onto these values. Your right of course but it does not make you correct.

Let me ask you this: if you got a job at a new company and were sent the company standards e.g. dress code, protocols, etc. and you turned up in a tee shirt & shorts, went to your desk and played loud music all day, doing no work, would the company have a case that you are not doing the job you are being paid to do?

Re: Brexit
 

An explanation why Mr Farage needs his EU salary

he insists he needs his £94,000 annual MEP's salary because he cannot live in a 'mud hut'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...edia-firm.html


Seems reasonable to me.

Re: Brexit
 

He’s repatriating a little of that £350 million. Fair dos.

Re: Brexit
 

It wasn't the plan was to "repatriate" the money into his own pockets though :) True man of the people ...

Re: Brexit
 

I thought Arron Banks paid for NF’s "not a mud hut"?

Re: Brexit
 

Great speech from Anne Widecombe

'Thank God we’re leaving!' Widdecombe speech stuns 'undemocratic' European Parliament

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11...ean-Parliament

Re: Brexit
 

Do you mean the elected MEP Anne Widdecombe who was addressing the other elected MEPs?

Re: Brexit
 

Sadly the election of mep's is the only time democracy is seen in action in the EU dictatorship.

Re: Brexit
 

clearly you don't know what word dictatorship means

Re: Brexit
 

Clearly you don't seeing as you cannot see the wood for the trees - The EU is a dictatorship, having it's own anthem and Flag and creating future laws where one cannot insult or burn such disgusting flags, I mean come on FFS , it is suppose to be a trade union, not a fecking country. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

it not try living in a real dictatorship like North Korea then say that yes lots wrong with EU but it aint a dictatorship people have lots of freedoms you never ever get in a dictatorship

Re: Brexit
 

Stop being so pathetically narrow minded - you knew what he meant - MEP's only got to vote for one person to become European President. That is a dictatorship. The nominations happen behind closed doors in the Council, they put one name forward. Big whoopie do - how undemocratic is this bullshit? :dozey:

Corrupted EU leaders chose Ursula von der Leyen as their pick to replace Jean-Claude Juncker as the leader of the European Union’s executive branch, this absolutely, despite the fact she was not even on the bloody ballot paper as a candidate and has no manifesto. Didn't you remainers quickly condemn Brexit Party recently for not having a Manifesto - when it suits I guess - which is so pathetic.

The European Council effectively ignored the European parliament’s spitzenkandidat, or “lead candidate” system, which was meant to inject an element of democracy into the selection of commission president, instead nominating the defence minister, who is largely unknown outside of Germany.

The above clearly shows the EU is not a democracy, it is a totally corrupt and disgusting institution, forced upon us because of what?

Nothing - we need to get the hell out, enough of this corrupt bollocks - we need to get out now.

Re: Brexit
 

Magid Magid incident highlights EU's race problem, say activists

An incident in which a black British MEP was asked to leave the European parliament on his first day highlighted the lack of racial diversity in EU politics, a campaign group has said.

The European Network Against Racism (ENAR), a network of more than 160 grassroots anti-racism organisations, said the incident reflected a wider pattern in European politics: “To be successful in EU politics, you must be white.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-say-activists

And now this

DONALD Tusk sparked uproar today after refusing to respond to the European Parliament’s criticism over his “lack of respect” for democracy during the process to find Jean-Claude Juncker’s successor.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...esident-latest

Re: Brexit
 

Stop arguing with me - The EU is a dictatorship. Nothing you say changes this.

Re: Brexit
 

That's sorted then, with the minimum of irony.

Re: Brexit
 

Nice ... :D