Re: Brexit
 

Shock horror that if we leave we can’t dictate their defence policy.

Re: Brexit
 

May begs the public: unite behind me on Brexit deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-open-letter

Good luck Mrs May as you are going to need it.

Re: Brexit
 

Only thing the public are united on is hatred of the traitress.

Re: Brexit
 

What else can you expect as many politicians are full of contradictions and insincerity sadly.

Re: Brexit
 

Brexit means Brexit - she’s delivering on leaving the EU.

She was never going to satisfy everyone.

Re: Brexit
 

Indeed but has ever a country been so deeply divided.

Re: Brexit
 

Brexit voters were sold an impossible dream back in 2016, but the Brexit elite were happy to provide snappy phrases like "Project Fear" when challenged by the realities.
Once Brexiters have moved into the stage of accepting this, and I appreciate that this phase won't happen overnight, they should direct their fire at those who sold them that dream, and not just those who had to pick up the pieces.

Re: Brexit
 

Her poll numbers have actually gone up since the deal. This effort to engage public to build support is working for her.

Re: Brexit
 

In defence of the PM (something I’m loathed to do) she is a remainer, implementing a policy she doesn’t agree with because everyone who campaigned to leave had no coherent plan of how to achieve Brexit.

One thing she most definitely isn’t is a traitor. She stepped up when no-one else would.

Re: Brexit
 

And there lies why it has been such a omnishambles.

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 ----------

l for one would not call her a traitor as even though l am no fan of her l am glad she has not given in to the hardliners.

Re: Brexit
 

I agree with that statement, but it’s not a shambles because of TM.

Re: Brexit
 

It’s not public support she needs.

Re: Brexit
 

Nope but this is a clear strategy they have. They are probably hoping that public support will apply political pressure on MPs, make it an unpopular thing to do to vote against this deal. Especially if as predicted it goes to a second round after being rejected once.

I think May's best argument is the 'let's get on with it'. The voters might be sick of this whole thing by now and back it just to get it over and done with. I am certainly sick of it.

Re: Brexit
 

That is far too simplistic. Theresa May was not an enthusiastic supporter of 'Remain' and did not throw herself into the debate. In reality, she probably voted to remain to show loyalty to David Cameron.

It is an absolute fallacy to continue to spread this myth that as a remainer she cannot grasp what is needed to leave the EU. I've had to do many things in my time at work that I have not personally believed in and been congratulated for my efforts. Theresa May soon realised that there was a fair bit of fluff flying around from the likes of Boris and realised that she was probably the only one to have a vision of how we could leave without causing too much disruption to business.

TM's assessment was a fair one, although personally, I have little doubt that with the right leadership, we could have made a 'no deal' Brexit work. Either way, we'll get there in the end.

---------- Post added at 10:14 ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 ----------

I agree, and it is pretty clear now I tbink, that the public do just want to get on with it.

Re: Brexit
 

Correct.

But how many MPs voted in Remain in staunch Leave constituencies?

However, I think it’s too close to the finishing line now.

If it gets voted down in Parliament.........god knows.

Re: Brexit
 

I think it will get voted down at the first but then what?

Labour will go 'well, General Election' which won't happen.

There isn't Parliamentary support for a second referendum. There isn't Parliamentary support for a Hard Brexit and the only option remaining for the second group, the MPs wanting to avoid a hard Brexit, is this deal on a second try....

Re: Brexit
 

I think Theress May will keep plugging away till it's either passed or she gets bored and resigns. I don't think the other options have more support than her proposals, unpopular as her proposals are in Parliament.
Curve ball would be something like a Norway deal but I don't think there's much support for that either and time is against it. As others have said, people are bored with Brexit and There's a May's agreement tackles this issue

Re: Brexit
 

At no point did I suggest she cannot grasp what is needed to leave the EU. I think that, as someone in favour of remaining, she can look at it with the cold objectivity required.

Others, mainly on the leave side, lack objectivity and often view it through some outdated view of Empire and nationalist pride. Often demonstrated with wartime terminology, of stances more appropriate to the 19th century than the 21st.

---------- Post added at 10:42 ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 ----------

This is when kicking the can down the road becomes a viable option everyone can agree upon.

Re: Brexit
 

I think EEA is better than this deal btw.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

The sad thing in all this is that one of the EU Parliament recognised that the UK did not like the existing version of the EU and though we have heard various EU leaders say that they are sorry the UK is leaving, they did nothing to reform the EU in a way that benefits all its members.

If the EU had carried out those internal reforms we would probably have stayed in a better, fairer version of the EU. It's equally true to say that had the UK government handled the bad side effects of immigration better more people would have voted to remain.Regretably neither happened so we are where we are.

As it is we may well be on our way out, as the EU leaders have approved the deal.

The big problem will be getting the legislation through Parliament so we will just have to wait and see what happens.

Re: Brexit
 

You won - get over it... ;)

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Re: Brexit
 

:clap:

Re: Brexit
 

There goes your Brexit. Although it only existed in a fairy tale anyway. Cheer up, the perfidious hegemonists are happy it seems.

Re: Brexit
 

And on that, we finally agree, Andrew. :)

---------- Post added at 12:32 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

Don't you start!

Re: Brexit
 

It's the tripe I read on here from some that seem to think Brexit voters are neanderthals that never understood why we were leaving.

I understood perfectly and new what I wanted. It was never about a british empire ruling the world again it was making a clean and independent break from being part of the EU.

Our laws were only allowed to be governed because the EU let us..20 years or more from now that wouldn't have been happening because everyone knows the route the EU wants to go.

The fact the UK lacked any negotiating skills while inside the EU shows how little we got respected for leaving the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

Does TMs deal give you what you want then ?

Re: Brexit
 

Nothing it was supposed to be a clean break not remain in the customs union and single market.

This might be for a short while but they have already said this can be extended we are locked into the EU with no say by doing this.

It's like divorcing the wife and still living and paying bills like a couple.

Re: Brexit
 

The vast majority on here have not demeaned or insulted those who have voted for Brexit as they voted for reasons which were important to them as there were reasons why some on here voted against Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

I don’t see how it can be.

This deal or no deal, we had better had buckle up for no deal.

Re: Brexit
 

N.I got stuff now we just need to wait for the reunification to finish them off

Re: Brexit
 

What a statement to make! So we only voted to leave because we wanted to build new empires and start wars!

You really don't understand the reasons why I am most other leavers voted to come out of the EU, do you? What is it about that monolithic bureaucracy that you love so much?

I certainly did not go into the polling booth with visions of empire in my head! What I wanted was a prosperous Britain, freed of the stranglehold on our businesses of tedious legislation seemingly designed to discourage would be entrepreneurs and existing businesses. I also saw how the freedom of movement rights were pushing our social services, health services and housing accommodation to breaking point.

You cannot seriously question the objectivity of leave voters when you cannot see beyond the confines of the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

If you think social services, the health service and housing are at breaking point because of the EU then you are ignoring the chronic underinvestment as a result of austerity.

I’m unsure what tedious regulations you refer to. Can you give me an example of a business idea that will be viable on 30th March 2019 that isn’t viable today because we are in the EU? The claim seems at odds with the CBI stance on the matter. VAT isn’t going anywhere, and in fact cross border trade might be more bureaucratic.

You may want a more prosperous Britain, however you can’t tell me how this will be achieved post Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

I’m unsure where these “huge immigrant waves” went. Even if I accepted the point, if not the emotive terminology, EU citizens living, working and paying tax in the UK is a good thing.

Is there a long term plan to improve the economy from leaving? By when will we match the pre-Brexit economy?

Re: Brexit
 

What, the austerity that was necessary after Labour's mismanagement of the economy which left the incoming coalition with no money?

The point is, we cannot keep taking in more and more people. You must surely see that there has to be a limit.

We will be free of a lot of that EU legislation that fetters the ability of our businesses to compete. We will negotiate trade deals that better meet our requirements, re-establishing our links with the Commonwealth countries when we abandoned them on joining the Common Market, we will have more trade with developing African markets and we will be joining other trading blocs to increase trade on favourable terms. At the same time, trading with the EU will remain much the same as it is now.

Britain has a brilliant future outside the EU and personally, I can't wait to see this reality.

---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------

How can ever increasing immigration be a good thing when our services cannot cope with what they are dealing with now?

If Theresa May gets her deal through Parliament, I doubt that we will be taking a financial hit. Why would we?

Re: Brexit
 

From May's letter to the nation.

I'm sure I've seen something like this before.
Was it on the side of a bus?

Re: Brexit
 

A bit less, actually! :D

Re: Brexit
 

Politicians talk is cheap as we all know , actual deliverance is far harder..

Re: Brexit
 

If someone comes to the country, works and pays tax yes that’s a good thing.

If from that tax the Government (and it’s consecutive governments of both colours) underfunds public services that’s the problem of Government, not the migrant. Housing underpins most problems in this country, but it will never be adequately solved because of the wealth held and borrowing against house prices.

Many immigrants work in our public services, supporting them rather than taking from them.

You still haven’t cited an example of EU legislation making business worse off. It’s just the usual generic waffle about trade deals (as yet undefined) and a better future (maybe). Back to the glory days of Empire with the Commonwealth trade deals.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Are you saying that the current Tory government is communist?

Re: Brexit
 

There is a limit, jfman. You can't just keep taking more people in. We are a small country and we don't need a further increase in our population.

Re: Brexit
 

We actually do need an increase in working age population and taxpayers to fund pensions. There’s plenty of space in the country as well, however the London/South East centred economy isn’t encouraging distribution of the population as a whole.

Solving these underlying issues should be far more important than “ending freedom of movement”. I’m also willing to bet something half baked comes from this and net migration figures will remain relatively unchanged. But we will have put two fingers up to Brussels, reclaimed sovereignty, etc etc.

Re: Brexit
 

But the tax they are paying is tax that somebody already in the UK could be paying instead. Their only contribution to GDP is their own consumption. Eg Food and that usually has to be specially imported from THEIR countries.

Re: Brexit
 

I can never understand people saying this, when the unemployment figures show there are a few million sitting on their backsides.

Once again, probably the fault of various Governments paying more in benefits than some people earn :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

I’d be amazed if the statistics showed that EU citizens in the UK specifically import anything but a small amount of items from their home country.

You are also making the flawed assumption that the UK has people with the skills or motivation to do the jobs being done by EU nationals.

---------- Post added at 18:00 ---------- Previous post was at 17:57 ----------

Ah the benefit scrounger, one level above the immigrant in the Brexit social hierarchy. Again these are underlying problems that won’t be solved by ending freedom of movement.

Re: Brexit
 

Eg There was a TV programme where a Czech Roma couple had arrived in Rotherham with TWENTY-TWO of their children and grandchildren. Only one of them had a job. So they, along with an estimated 6,000 other Czech Roma just in Rotherham had to be housed, funded with benefits etc. The fallacy is that enough of the 3m EU residents actually contribute.



So is the stock in all the Eastern European shops produced in the UK?

Re: Brexit
 

So the PM gets a free pass on telling a lie to the to the nation whereas the leave campaign got pilloried for even suggesting it by those who can't tell the difference between a suggestion and a promise?

Re: Brexit
 

A TV programme is probably not the best representative sample of EU migrants. You certainly can't use it to declare it a 'fallacy' that 'enough contribute'.

Re: Brexit
 

Not sure where all these assumptions are coming from about all these people being funded and housed. That's not the case.
http://theconversation.com/when-brit...-the-law-86896

The factual situation is that over their lifetime, the UK makes a surplus from EU citizens working here whilst UK citizens working here just pay their way.

Re: Brexit
 

Indeed.

Just because an immigrant is working, and may possibly be paying tax, doesn't mean that they won't be claiming various benefits and availing themselves of our free healthcare system, maternity care, education etc. They will also need somewhere to live and will probably be taking a scarce home from rented stock.

If they take a job that someone here could have obtained, any benefits to us by them coming here are negated because the person who didn't get the job remains on benefits.

Having said that, at least the ones who work (in legitimate jobs that is), are making an effort to contribute as opposed to the likes of those who live in London subways and openly defecate outdoors. That's when they aren't begging/stealing/mugging etc.

Re: Brexit
 

There’s one Polish shop in my town, no bigger than a local grocery store. There’s a McDonalds, a KFC, a Pizza Hut, a subway and countless other shops. Relative to all consumer spending these stores will be small.

Re: Brexit
 

I think that the way this is worked out is flawed and, even if it was shown to be correct, there are negative issues not directly related to money.

If an immigrant takes a job that would have gone to a UK resident, the extended benefit payments of the other party must be taken into consideration.

How much are public services having to spend on interpreters because they don't speak English?

How much are they artificially pushing up house prices and rents?

Re: Brexit
 

Massive generalisations going on there. Why not just do away with the welfare state as it’s obviously open to systematic abuse from English people too. Imagine having the audacity to pay tax and expect an NHS hospital to help deliver your baby.

---------- Post added at 18:47 ---------- Previous post was at 18:43 ----------

Regarding social housing I’m sure we used to have plenty but something happened along the way...

Re: Brexit
 

l am talking about politicians on the whole whatever side they are on pip.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Doesn't answer the question den.

I await any remainer answering it considering the amount said about the bus in this and previous threads.

Re: Brexit
 

Even if those people are vital Drs, nurses and carers we don't have enough of for our ageing population ?

Re: Brexit
 

If the immigrant can’t speak English how are they beating unemployed English people into the jobs?

Re: Brexit
 

That’s a bit rich from someone who openly admits they can’t be bothered to back up their arguments with citations and links?

But. Just for arguments sake

https://openeurope.org.uk/intelligen...u-regulations/

You seem to bang on an a hell of a lot about the empire, are you a secret imperialist?

Re: Brexit
 

It's obviously a lie. There are no economic projections in which we're richer after Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

50,000 nursing vacancies.... We need immigration, and whether intended or not, the whole Brexit shambles is making other countries more attractive to the people we need.

Re: Brexit
 

I’d love you to source where I “openly admit” your claim in the first sentence.

I’m quite interested in your link though. Essentially, there are costs adhering to standards and regulations - these aren’t uniquely an EU feature. I’ve quoted one paragraph:

EU regulation can come with benefits, particularly if it helps facilitate trade across the single market. It would also be wrong to assume that, if the UK were to leave the EU, the costs described above would disappear overnight. The reality is that the UK would be likely to keep a good number of these laws in part or in full, such as rules on anti-discrimination, some health and safety rules, food safety standards, and so forth. At the same time, the UK would no longer benefit from many of the EU rules that give British business access to European markets – such as ‘passporting rules’ for financial firms.

So again can anyone tell me a business suggestion that isn’t viable today but will be viable on 30th March?

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 19:32 ----------

Why aren’t our 3 million unemployed queuing up for these jobs? After all, every EU national in a job is literally grabbing it from the hands of a Brit desperate to do it.

Re: Brexit
 

6,000 from just ONE very specific group in ONE town, does suggest a wider true representation. They all had OVERNIGHT to be supplied with houses, benefits, interpreters, health care, etc. That had to be funded by MORE borrowing. Easy to flatter an economy by funding it from borrowing. Same with normal household lifestyles. You can have a lovely lifestyle until you have to start paying the debts off or can't borrow more.

Re: Brexit
 

Post 3664.

Re: Brexit
 

That’s a comment on your inability to understand my posts. Ironically, you failed to understand it!

Nobody else, on either side of the debate, appears to have a problem.

Once again I note you have only quoted one part of my post, selectively omitting the rest which I presume to be inconvenient. Once again playing the man and not the ball.

Re: Brexit
 

How on earth can a one-off group of people in one city of 263,400 people be deemed representative of the millions of immigrants in this country?
And, claiming benefits is not easy! New EU migrants who arrive in the UK cannot claim any benefits until they have started work here.

Re: Brexit
 

I believe that is a question you should be asking the employers :dozey:

Re: Brexit
 

So why isn't there express outrage at a lie when there was about a suggestion?

Remainers being selective about things?

Re: Brexit
 

I think you'll find many Remainers think May's deal is awful. Also it's wasn't as prominent a lie as the one on the bus but in the end there are so many lies it's hard to muster the outrage over every single one.

Re: Brexit
 

I understand you and your arrogance perfectly.

because, like much of what you post it was either, irrelevant, uninteresting, incoherent, inconsequential....delete as appropriate.

Re: Brexit
 

The problem is with so many lies being told in the last 2 plus years any trust people did have in politicians has been completely eroded now.

Re: Brexit
 

So you have no interest in engaging with any discussion? Feel free to stop selectively quoting me then.

I can engage with constructive posters instead.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:15 ----------

I think it's much more likely that most EU immigrants can speak English adequately. There's no rational reason for an employer, a capitalist entity, to employ someone absolutely unsuitable for the role when our own 3 million unemployed are chomping at the bit to get off the sofa and into the workforce.

Re: Brexit
 

Yes I guess they can, but sadly I've experienced those who can't . . working in the UK

Re: Brexit
 

It's certain areas of the job industry that have been swamped with none english workers. Taxi companies and manufacturing as an example. It's about having those that can contribute to society that really count E.g Dr's and Nurses which are much harder to get.

I know working for the NHS especially in my department there is a high number of Asian patients with Renal failure. This is caused by the general life style of the culture not to mention a large portion of these can't speak english.

As a result of this and the NHS trying to save money they employ staff that can speak the language rather than pay for interpreters which I might add in 2016 my local NHS spent over 50k in 2 months using these.

This is not to mention the 50k it costs per year per patient for treatment.

As for a companies doing business after brexit for a no deal well it's totally out of my area of expertise but the failure here is that nobody has done anything to ensure that something has been set up for them. because we have a PM who is a remain voter with her own Agenda not the voters Agenda.

The intention from the outset of her taking control was to ensure leave never happend despite the crap slogan she used at the start of her taking over

Re: Brexit
 

Asians with medical conditions. :mad:

Re: Brexit
 

You've lost me what is the purpose of that?

Re: Brexit
 

Some speak English and some don't. Not all jobs require English to be spoken, particularly as whole workforces will be speaking a foreign language. Many employers won't be bothered about language, they are more concerned about getting cheap labour (which often undercuts the wage of UK residents).

Wage rates are depressed, meaning that to compete others have to agree to a low wage (prompting in work benefit claims) or remain unemployed. Either way, this means more Government expenditure on benefits.

---------- Post added at 03:00 ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 ----------

A lot won't be paying tax or NI, either because the personal allowances have been substantially increased or because they only need to work over 16 hours a week to get round the no Jobseekers Allowance rule as soon as they arrive here.

Aside from the financial aspect, these people are putting a strain on hospitals, schools etc.

---------- Post added at 03:09 ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 ----------

Some immigration is desirable, it's the fact that anyone who cared to come here could do so and we were powerless to stop them. Under a hard Brexit or Mays deal we will be able to control the quantity and quality of immigrants we allow in.

I think that the problems caused by EU migrants was a major reason why a sizeable number of people voted to leave.

I do hope that the Government will have the sense to let anyone in on the proviso that it is not necessarily a permanent arrangement. Over the next decade millions of jobs will be lost to automation and we will have enough of a problem dealing with this without the extra burden of people who become surplus to requirements from overseas.

Re: Brexit
 

You can’t actually quantify any of this. It’s just a checklist of xenophobic statements. The facts are EU nationals are net contributors to the UK economy.

If there’s a strain on public services it’s because they are chronically underfunded. That’s a political choice by people who want low tax and don’t mind austerity as long as they are fine.

If wages are too low why not vote for a party advocating a higher minimum wage? Again these are political choices by both parties, doing so while pointing at the “bogey man” of the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

So whether wages are low or not is irrelevant? So EU nationals “driving down wages” also drives down prices? I’m not sure how that supports the anti-immigrant agenda.

As for Macron the whole point of trade deals is compromise, whether with the EU, USA or Commonwealth countries they are all going to want something in return.

The USA want to sell us chlorinated chicken, the French want fishing rights, we want “frictionless trade” without freedom of movement. I don’t think any of this is hugely surprising or necessarily needs to evoke the adjectives used for the EU when if the shoe was on the other foot, or we had anything meaningful to trade with the EU, we would use that as leverage.

Re: Brexit
 

It's going to be an interesting week. We should have a decision on whether the UK can cancel Article 50 tomorrow. I also believe the impact reports on no deal and Theresa's deal will be unveiled. Expect much complaining from the Brexit elite when the latter happens.

Re: Brexit
 

No doubt, the impact report will concern itself with costs, loss of EU membership advantage and negative impacts, and less attention to increased trade, opportunities and other benefits. So once again, a report with undue emphasis on the downside.

The impact report will be of limited value, therefore, as have been other forecasts in the past, so this won't wash with your 'hard' Brexiteers.

It's only remainers who are looking seriously on whether we can cancel Article 50. That isn't going to happen. Apply for an extension, perhaps, but I don't know what good that will do other than annoy the public.

Re: Brexit
 

The reports will take into account the small upside. But as we know, it's dwarfed the far larger and perrmanent downside unfortunately.

Re: Brexit
 

These trade deals are all speculative and given the reaction of people in this thread and the country impossible to negotiate since any concession will be met with anger.

Re: Brexit
 

Beggars can't be choosers Richard. Other countries are in the market for medical staff (e.g Germany); why would they want to come here where they won't be permanent and apparently unwelcome ?


We don't have enough young people and too many old people, that situation is going to get worse especially with Brexit as our youngsters seek better opportunities elsewhere. Meanwhile Little England is left to fester with the whining oldsters who produce nothing but demand everything.

Re: Brexit
 

People need to grasp the concept that the bigger bloc or country offers the larger market and so has the upper hand in negotiations. Be that the EU, India or the USA. There's nothing mean about that.
If we had all the trade deals lined up that Liam Fox said we would have, then we might be looking at the country taking less of a long term hit than looks the case now. Regrettably, these deals have not occurred.

Re: Brexit
 

Aah, I see the old EU immigration debate has come up again so I guess it's time to post a link to the governments own study - https://assets.publishing.service.go...EEA_report.PDF.

From that report we have;

Wages;
Public services;
Again, the question remains why did successive UK governments allow unrestricted migration from the EU when there were mechanisms in place under EU law to prevent migration becoming an excessive burden to the state. This includes rules that say they must be working, self supporting or in education after three months or they must leave.Belgium manages this just fine.

Re: Brexit
 

Don’t forget that non-EU immigration has been higher the EU immigration for decades, and still is...

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

Re: Brexit
 

Yep that just about sums it up.:tu:

Re: Brexit
 

Thing is if we control our borders we can allow in people with the skills we need as we need them. We can let in seasonal workers even since it seems our local lot don't want to do it. I really can't see that being an issue.

What is the (perceived) problem is uncontrolled immigration.

Re: Brexit
 

Maybe because any politician that suggests limiting immigration is immediatly branded as a racist by the liberal left who use such slurs to avoid actually having a debate on the issue.

Re: Brexit
 

According to The Sun Gove and Rudd, along with Labour rebels, will seek the Norway option if the deal is voted down: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit...ove-join-efta/

Re: Brexit
 

OK, may be I should rephrase the question - why have successive governments allowed unrestricted immigration from the EU while actively restricting non-EU migration (see 'Go Home' vans, Windrush, etc)

Re: Brexit
 

So that's about 17 MPs then...

Why don't we seek a 'UK type deal' ? that sounds the best of anything on offer to me ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Not the kind of figures to worry the Brexit elite.
https://news.sky.com/story/live-back...rexit-11563967

Re: Brexit
 

I am surprised May's deal is so close to the impact of no deal really

Re: Brexit
 

It would be interesting to see what they took into account in coming to that conclusion. Doubtless, they could do a calculation based on potential loss of trade, but what about new opportunities? It would be difficult to assess that of course because they cannot know how businesses will react and the type of benefits that would flow from their initiatives.

So these reports will always underestimate the potential benefits because they have no hard information to go on, whereas potential loss of business can, for the most part.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over this impact assessment!

---------- Post added at 13:37 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------

The figures are no more than a finger in the air from those who believe that Brexit carries with it no benefits.

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:37 ----------

How on Earth can you say with any credibility that there will be 'a small upside?' What do you base that on?

Remove restrictions and open up markets and business will respond very positively indeed, without governments getting in the way.

---------- Post added at 13:43 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------

You do know that we are not permitted to negotiate trade deals until we have left the EU, don't you, Andrew?

There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes and Japan has already signalled that they will support us joing the free trade area to which they belong, which is massive.

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

It is increasingly likely that this will be the route we have to take. It will be temporary, of course, until we get the trade deal we want from the EU.