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-   -   Will Scotland Leave the UK? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33684496)

1andrew1 21-02-2021 10:33
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071454)
In my view, the opposition parties need to highlight the economic madness of separation. If they still vote in line with the SNP having been warned, they will be beyond help.

On that, we agree.
Economics doesn't always work at the ballot box. The heart often conquers the head. Besides, the Republic of Ireland has shown a small country can end up thriving outside the UK and I don't see it clamouring to re-join.

Boris's solution is a bit of an unknown. Is it to play up the UK roll-out of vaccinations? Is it to build a tunnel to Northern Ireland? Is Labour's more devolution? Perhaps to give Scotland many of the benefits of independence but still nominally within the UK?

Chris 21-02-2021 10:54
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071485)
Economics doesn't always work at the ballot box. The heart often conquers the head. Besides, the Republic of Ireland has shown a small country can end up thriving outside the UK and I don't see it clamouring to re-join.

Boris's solution is a bit of an unknown. Is it to play up the UK roll-out of vaccinations? Is it to build a tunnel to Northern Ireland? Is Labour's more devolution? Perhaps to give Scotland many of the benefits of independence but still nominally within the UK?
Ireland is a good case in point. It suffered a generation of grinding poverty post separation and only an eye-watering sum of ECUs has brought it up to where it is now. But Ireland benefited from EU largesse at a time when there were only around a dozen members. All that yummy free money is being hoovered up by ex-communist Eastern European states now. If the SNP thinks it can swap subsidies mostly generated in London and the southeast of England for those purloined and redistributed by Brussels, they’re sorely mistaken.

jfman 21-02-2021 12:10
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071454)
Deliberately or not, you seem to be completely misinterpreting pretty well every single post of mine that you comment on.

As for ‘linear TV’, give us a break. That is nothing whatsoever to do with this thread, and your ‘point’ has been answered on countless occasions. Time to grow up, you are not in primary school any more.
Yet nobody else seems to think you've answered the point - however I agree there's many threads you've started on the same subject then you flip between when on the back foot so no need to have one here.

Quote:
As for Scotland, I don’t really care overmuch myself if they vote for separation. The advantages will be for the rest of us.
You don't seem very convinced, OB.

Quote:
But I do genuinely feel sorry for those Scottish people who are taken in by the rhetoric of the SNP. In my view, the opposition parties need to highlight the economic madness of separation. If they still vote in line with the SNP having been warned, they will be beyond help.
Maybe they struggle to highlight the economic madness because it simply isn't economic madness and much of the oft-trotted out lines are easily discredited based on Scotland doing nothing.

You didn't find the economic argument compelling when it came to Brexit, so I'm unsure why you are pegging your hopes on an argument you readily discounted for a subject you don't care about. :confused:

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 12:18
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
I think that OB deals adequately with most points raised.

Quote:
You didn't find the economic argument compelling when it came to Brexit, so I'm unsure why you are pegging your hopes on an argument you readily discounted for a subject you don't care about.
As to jfman's point above, there is a huge difference between the Scottish micro-economy and the UK's macro-economy in terms of arguing for independence. In the UK's case, the ability to survive post0Brexit is not in doubt. That cannot be said of Scotland. jfman should construct better arguments.

Chris 21-02-2021 12:51
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36071489)
Maybe they struggle to highlight the economic madness because it simply isn't economic madness and much of the oft-trotted out lines are easily discredited based on Scotland doing nothing.

You didn't find the economic argument compelling when it came to Brexit, so I'm unsure why you are pegging your hopes on an argument you readily discounted for a subject you don't care about. :confused:
Many of the remainer arguments levelled against Brexit must also be levelled against Scexit. Those arguments may have different answers, but those answers must be given. And the different scale and balance of the Scottish economy compared to the UK as a whole is highly relevant.

To take but one recent example: there have been many complaints about 73 page documents exporters have to present at Dover before they can put their lorry on the ferry to France. Has anyone seriously considered how the Scottish economy will fare if every lorry trying to go any further than Gretna or Berwick has to do the same thing? Scottish business is proportionately much more exposed to this sort of thing than the UK as a whole.

Has anyone put any thought into how Scottish business would access the EU market, even if Scotland were to join the EU independently, given that it is almost totally dependent on road transport through England in order to get there?

Scotland could “make different choices” about its economy is wholly inadequate as an answer to these pressing practical questions for which there are now real-world examples.

jfman 21-02-2021 13:08
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
It's not for one party to necessarily define what those choices would be though. An SNP led independence referendum wouldn't necessarily be able to commit a Scottish Labour party or a Scottish Conservative Party in an independent country to forge the same path.

Whether "making different choices" is wholly inadequate or otherwise is into the electorate. As Brexit demonstrated many voters are happy to vote for a principle and iron out the details later. If Scottish voters are happy to do so, then that is their perogative.

1andrew1 21-02-2021 13:21
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36071492)
Many of the remainer arguments levelled against Brexit must also be levelled against Scexit. Those arguments may have different answers, but those answers must be given. And the different scale and balance of the Scottish economy compared to the UK as a whole is highly relevant.

To take but one recent example: there have been many complaints about 73 page documents exporters have to present at Dover before they can put their lorry on the ferry to France. Has anyone seriously considered how the Scottish economy will fare if every lorry trying to go any further than Gretna or Berwick has to do the same thing? Scottish business is proportionately much more exposed to this sort of thing than the UK as a whole.

Has anyone put any thought into how Scottish business would access the EU market, even if Scotland were to join the EU independently, given that it is almost totally dependent on road transport through England in order to get there?

Scotland could “make different choices” about its economy is wholly inadequate as an answer to these pressing practical questions for which there are now real-world examples.
Scottish independence has not been so tightly defined as to require a hard border with England or to join the EU at the expense of the UK single market. I'm sure the lessons learnt from keeping Brexit vague so as to render criticism harder have not gone unnoticed.

Independence means independence, as some may say.

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 13:47
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071496)
Scottish independence has not been so tightly defined as to require a hard border with England or to join the EU at the expense of the UK single market. I'm sure the lessons learnt from keeping Brexit vague so as to render criticism harder have not gone unnoticed.

Independence means independence, as some may say.
Scottish independence has been very clearly defined to the extent of joining the EU. In turn, that defines a hard border with England in the absence of any other legal force preventing that.

1andrew1 21-02-2021 13:49
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071501)
Scottish independence has been very clearly defined to the extent of joining the EU. In turn, that defines a hard border with England in the absence of any other legal force preventing that.
Where is it very clearly defined that Scottish independence means joining the EU?

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 14:01
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071502)
Where is it very clearly defined that Scottish independence means joining the EU?
I'll let myself walk into your trap. Remember, the only political party advocating independence is the SNP.

https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what...ion-on-the-eu/

Quote:
What is the SNP’s position on the EU?
The SNP believe that EU membership delivers many social, economic and cultural benefits for individuals, business and communities across Scotland. We believe that the best way to build a more prosperous and equal Scotland is to be a full independent member of the EU.
If the Scots vote for independence, it'll be based on the SNP's policy. Or do you disagree with that?

1andrew1 21-02-2021 15:00
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071503)
I'll let myself walk into your trap. Remember, the only political party advocating independence is the SNP.

https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what...ion-on-the-eu/

If the Scots vote for independence, it'll be based on the SNP's policy. Or do you disagree with that?
A vote in an independence referendum is not a vote for all of the SNP's policies. It is a vote for independence; no more and no less.

Is a vote for the SNP even a vote to join the EU? I don't think so, as I believe that would likely require another referendum anyway.

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 15:48
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071509)
A vote in an independence referendum is not a vote for all of the SNP's policies. It is a vote for independence; no more and no less.

Is a vote for the SNP even a vote to join the EU? I don't think so, as I believe that would likely require another referendum anyway.
That is an argumentative stretch, Andrew.

Every person interviewed on TV who supports the SNP and independence also supports joining the EU, quoting that Scotland never voted for Brexit.

It is SNP policy. Btw, an independent Scotland's government can devise any rules it wishes for joining the EU. I recall that Edward Heath never conducted a referendum before the UK joined the then EEC.

1andrew1 21-02-2021 16:15
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071516)
That is an argumentative stretch, Andrew.

Every person interviewed on TV who supports the SNP and independence also supports joining the EU, quoting that Scotland never voted for Brexit.

It is SNP policy. Btw, an independent Scotland's government can devise any rules it wishes for joining the EU. I recall that Edward Heath never conducted a referendum before the UK joined the then EEC.
The SNP will remind viewers that Scotland was taken out of the EU against its will and best interests as that will encourage voters to vote SNP.

Constitutionally, voting to leave the UK in a referendum instructs the Scottish government of the day to enact the policy. It is not a vote for the SNP or its policies.

Humouring you for a minute. Assuming the SNP wins a majority this year, is there time to get an independence referendum pushed through, won and enacted and then to have rejoined the EU. All in five years before the next Scottish elections when Scotland could elect a different government?

Paul 21-02-2021 18:20
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071509)
Is a vote for the SNP even a vote to join the EU?
As that is their policy, Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071509)
I believe that would likely require another referendum anyway.
As remainers are so fond of pointing out, Scotland voted to remain, so unless their is a sudden unexplained change, they would vote to (re) join.

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 18:37
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071519)
The SNP will remind viewers that Scotland was taken out of the EU against its will and best interests as that will encourage voters to vote SNP.

Constitutionally, voting to leave the UK in a referendum instructs the Scottish government of the day to enact the policy. It is not a vote for the SNP or its policies.

Humouring you for a minute. Assuming the SNP wins a majority this year, is there time to get an independence referendum pushed through, won and enacted and then to have rejoined the EU. All in five years before the next Scottish elections when Scotland could elect a different government?
Andrew, what planet are you on? The UK government knows exactly why the SNP want to rush things. So no legal/binding referendum will be permitted in the short term. Of course because all politicians (except John Redwood) are liars, that could change.

1andrew1 21-02-2021 19:01
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071528)
Andrew, what planet are you on? The UK government knows exactly why the SNP want to rush things. So no legal/binding referendum will be permitted in the short term. Of course because all politicians (except John Redwood) are liars, that could change.
We concur. My point was that even if you believe that a vote for the SNP is a vote to rejoin the EU and that no referendum is needed, it won't happen in the next Scottish Pariament as there's just not enough time. So a vote in May 2021 for the SNP will not be a vote for Scotland to join the EU as there's not enough time.

Hugh has ably deconstructed your loyal but over-optimistic pronouncement regarding Redwood.

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 19:35
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071532)
We concur. My point was that even if you believe that a vote for the SNP is a vote to rejoin the EU and that no referendum is needed, it won't happen in the next Scottish Pariament as there's just not enough time. So a vote in May 2021 for the SNP will not be a vote for Scotland to join the EU as there's not enough time.

Hugh has ably deconstructed your loyal but over-optimistic pronouncement regarding Redwood.
He thinks he has. But nothing in Hugh's effort shows JR to be a liar.

Hugh 21-02-2021 21:20
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071535)
He thinks he has. But nothing in Hugh's effort shows JR to be a liar.
Except for the small fact he made something up that wasn’t in the press release, you are totally correct.

Probably wasn’t a lie, just an "alternative fact"...:D

nomadking 21-02-2021 21:25
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Whether or not an independent Scotland eventually was able to join the EU, there would have to be a hard border and tariffs, with England, Wales, and NI, and the EU.

If a Scotland-UK agreement was reached, that would block any potential EU agreement, that is unless the premise of the NI backstop situation was totally bogus.
Scotland would lose any access to any trade agreements the UK, has and may come to.
Any advantage Ireland has had from the boom in tech industries, would not be available to Scotland. What is the likelihood of new major Google type industries starting up that could set up in Scotland? Any advantage that there might be for Scotland in that situation, would apply even more so to England, Wales, and NI.

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 21:32
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36071542)
Except for the small fact he made something up that wasn’t in the press release, you are totally correct.

Probably wasn’t a lie, just an "alternative fact"...:D
Seemed to me and a lot of others as a self-evident truth.
You're still the Remainer you ever were.

I think the only political thing upon which we agree is the folly of Scottish independence.

1andrew1 21-02-2021 21:44
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36071543)
Whether or not an independent Scotland eventually was able to join the EU, there would have to be a hard border and tariffs, with England, Wales, and NI, and the EU.

If a Scotland-UK agreement was reached, that would block any potential EU agreement, that is unless the premise of the NI backstop situation was totally bogus.
Scotland would lose any access to any trade agreements the UK, has and may come to.
Any advantage Ireland has had from the boom in tech industries, would not be available to Scotland. What is the likelihood of new major Google type industries starting up that could set up in Scotland? Any advantage that there might be for Scotland in that situation, would apply even more so to England, Wales, and NI.
If Scotland left the UK, there's no reason why it couldn't negotiate to remain in the UK single market and customs union which would mean no hard border with the UK. And no reason why it couldn't negotiate a smilar tariff-free trade deal with the EU. I'm not sure what makes you think this is impossible.

In time, both the UK and Scotland could join the EU but it would be easier if they did so at the same time.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071544)
Seemed to me and a lot of others as a self-evident truth.
You're still the Remainer you ever were.

I think the only political thing upon which we agree is the folly of Scottish independence.
I'm sure you and Hugh agree on hundreds of political things from the market economy to human rights to the rights of a country to defend itself with arms. No one agrees on everything which is why discussion forums are always more interesting than echo chambers. :)

Pierre 21-02-2021 21:46
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071546)
If Scotland left the UK, there's no reason why it couldn't negotiate to remain in the UK single market and customs ......I'm not sure what makes you think this is impossible.
.
Absolutely not impossible, access to their fishing, oil, etc.............would all be on the table.

nomadking 21-02-2021 22:01
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071546)
If Scotland left the UK, there's no reason why it couldn't negotiate to remain in the UK single market and customs union which would mean no hard border with the UK. And no reason why it couldn't negotiate a smilar tariff-free trade deal with the EU. I'm not sure what makes you think this is impossible.

In time, both the UK and Scotland could join the EU but it would be easier if they did so at the same time.
So why did the EU(especially Ireland) insist on there being effectively a border between GB and NI. The same EU arguments would still be there, eg preserving the integrity of the EU single market.
Considering that to join the EU, Scotland would have to have their own currency, reduce their deficit to less than 3%, and maintain it for at least 2 years(iirc), then Scotland joining the EU is very much a non-starter, and by some miracle would still be years away.
The only thing Scotland has to offer the EU, is fishing waters. Is that going to be enough, considering how much Scotland will cost the EU.

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 22:10
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
By the time they might get independence, there'll be a much smaller market in England for their oil.

Obviously it makes sense for us to import "Scottish" fish. But this will be EU fish and a hell of a bunfight over fishing rights generally can be expected. Scotland won't have control.

What would the "etc" be? Pity you stopped there. I can't find on a quick trawl figures for Scottish meat supplied to England but I can't see anything stopping England from compensating production accordingly.

I think that Scottish independence would be a very bitter affair.

1andrew1 21-02-2021 22:27
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36071552)
So why did the EU(especially Ireland) insist on there being effectively a border between GB and NI. The same EU arguments would still be there, eg preserving the integrity of the EU single market.
Considering that to join the EU, Scotland would have to have their own currency, reduce their deficit to less than 3%, and maintain it for at least 2 years(iirc), then Scotland joining the EU is very much a non-starter, and by some miracle would still be years away.
The only thing Scotland has to offer the EU, is fishing waters. Is that going to be enough, considering how much Scotland will cost the EU.
It's not me who's suggesting that Scotland will join the EU any time soon! Others have suggested this will happen in the event of an independence vote and you have suggested some reasons as to why it won't. But I'm not sure a country having its own currency is an EU entry requirement.

It's WTO rules that necessitate require trade borders.

How much would Scotland cost the EU? It's far richer than accession country Republic of North Macedonia.

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 22:41
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071557)
It's not me who's suggesting that Scotland will join the EU any time soon! Others have suggested this will happen in the event of an independence vote and you have suggested some reasons as to why it won't. But I'm not sure a country having its own currency is an EU entry requirement.

It's WTO rules that necessitate require trade borders.

How much would Scotland cost the EU? It's far richer than accession country Republic of North Macedonia.
That's not saying much for Scotland!

On the cost of Scotland joining the EU, this is useful:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55921961

Quote:
A new economic study into trade concludes that the costs of Scottish independence would be two to three times greater than the impact from Brexit, and that joining the European Union would do little to offset that cost.

The SNP response is that there is no reason why Scotland cannot emulate the success of other countries of a similar size.

nomadking 21-02-2021 22:56
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071557)
It's not me who's suggesting that Scotland will join the EU any time soon! Others have suggested this will happen in the event of an independence vote and you have suggested some reasons as to why it won't. But I'm not sure a country having its own currency is an EU entry requirement.

It's WTO rules that necessitate require trade borders.

How much would Scotland cost the EU? It's far richer than accession country Republic of North Macedonia.
There would still need to be hard borders etc, in the meantime.
They need their own currency in order to demonstrate fiscal responsibility.:D
They would then have to give up that currency to adopt the Euro.
Whatever way you look at it, Scotland is running a deficit of well over 3%. Scotland and Wales are looking for the EU to prop them up.
If by some miracle Scotland no longer had a deficit, then they definitely would have, after contributing to EU funds.
North Macedonia's deficit for 2019 was around 2%.

The amount of Scotland's annual deficit is more than 10 times the amount of North Macedonia.


EU countries cannot have trade agreements outside of the EU. Scotland cannot have a trade deal with the UK and be a member of the EU.

Hugh 21-02-2021 23:26
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071544)
Seemed to me and a lot of others as a self-evident truth.
You're still the Remainer you ever were.

I think the only political thing upon which we agree is the folly of Scottish independence.
How can someone saying
Quote:
Reasons given included extra costs and delays in getting the goods into the UK and an unwillingness to buy EU goods given the attitude of the EU to trade with us in recent months.
when that wasn’t one of the reasons given, be a "self evident truth"?

He stated something was in the survey results that wasn’t in the survey results - or, as everyone who can recognise reality would call it, a lie...

Sephiroth 21-02-2021 23:40
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36071563)
How can someone saying when that wasn’t one of the reasons given, be a "self evident truth"?

He stated something was in the survey results that wasn’t in the survey results - or, as everyone who can recognise reality would call it, a lie...
I accept that unwillingness to buy EU goods as a valid extrapolation. He's absolutely right in the totality of what he says.

Is there a public backlash towards the EU? I certainly think so. And there will be a similar backlash against Scotland, perhaps even more severe, if it gains independence.

1andrew1 22-02-2021 09:28
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071564)
I accept that unwillingness to buy EU goods as a valid extrapolation. He's absolutely right in the totality of what he says.

Is there a public backlash towards the EU? I certainly think so. And there will be a similar backlash against Scotland, perhaps even more severe, if it gains independence.
I think you need to prove intent with lying. So a statement that "we hold all the cards" may be factually incorrect, but if the person saying it believes it be true, then it's not lying.

Of course, if they're daft enough to promote such incorrect information then they shouldn't be in a position of responsibility anyway!

Sephiroth 22-02-2021 09:33
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071572)
I think you need to prove intent with lying. So a statement that "we hold all the cards" may be factually incorrect, but if the person saying it believes it be true, then it's not lying.

Of course, if they're daft enough to promote such incorrect information then they shouldn't be in a position of responsibility anyway!
well, of course but only to the extent that the EU’s likely hostility should have been foreseen.

1andrew1 22-02-2021 09:53
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071573)
well, of course but only to the extent that the EU’s likely hostility should have been foreseen.
Regardless of anything else that was to come, we did not hold all the cards.

Sephiroth 22-02-2021 12:08
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071574)
Regardless of anything else that was to come, we did not hold all the cards.
But for Mrs May, we had a reasonably strong hand - called £39 billion. She gave way by letting them dictate the order of negotiations.
We should have simply walked away with the offer that they could approach us with their offer/suggestions.

She royally screwed us over.

Hugh 22-02-2021 13:31
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36071564)
I accept that unwillingness to buy EU goods as a valid extrapolation. He's absolutely right in the totality of what he says.

Is there a public backlash towards the EU? I certainly think so. And there will be a similar backlash against Scotland, perhaps even more severe, if it gains independence.
Made stuff up that wasn’t said - OK, then...

papa smurf 22-02-2021 13:36
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36071603)
Made stuff up that wasn’t said - OK, then...
Artistic licence:)

Hugh 22-02-2021 13:41
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36071604)
Artistic licence:)
Definitely... :D

OLD BOY 22-02-2021 14:41
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36071603)
Made stuff up that wasn’t said - OK, then...
Extrapolation means ‘estimating or concluding something that existing trends will continue or a current method will remain applicable’ by the definition I see in front of me right now.

Extrapolation is not a lie. It is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.

You, however, may choose to use alternative evidence to extrapolate from.

1andrew1 22-02-2021 14:57
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071609)
Extrapolation means ‘estimating or concluding something that existing trends will continue or a current method will remain applicable’ by the definition I see in front of me right now.

Extrapolation is not a lie. It is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.

You, however, may choose to use alternative evidence to extrapolate from.
Whilst a more accurate term would be "assumption", I'm heading off topic so I will keep my contribution short and sweet. ;)

jfman 22-02-2021 15:30
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071609)
Extrapolation means ‘estimating or concluding something that existing trends will continue or a current method will remain applicable’ by the definition I see in front of me right now.

Extrapolation is not a lie. It is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.

You, however, may choose to use alternative evidence to extrapolate from.
Debatable use of "reasonable".

Hugh 22-02-2021 15:46
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071609)
Extrapolation means ‘estimating or concluding something that existing trends will continue or a current method will remain applicable’ by the definition I see in front of me right now.

Extrapolation is not a lie. It is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.

You, however, may choose to use alternative evidence to extrapolate from.
Extrapolation may not be a lie, but saying
Quote:
Reasons given included ... ...an unwillingness to buy EU goods given the attitude of the EU to trade with us in recent months.
when that reason wasn't given, or even mentioned, isn't extrapolation...

Or are you saying that would have been the answer to a question the survey didn't ask, but if they did, it would have been that?

Hom3r 28-02-2021 11:15
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
The way things are going with AS investigation NS might be lucky if she isn't forced to quit :D

1andrew1 02-03-2021 18:55
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36072328)
The way things are going with AS investigation NS might be lucky if she isn't forced to quit :D
Indeed - Conservatives will be tabling a no-confidence motion.
Quote:
Nicola Sturgeon is facing calls to resign after new documents raised further questions about her involvement in the Alex Salmond saga.

The government has published emails showing it continued a legal fight with Mr Salmond despite its lawyers advising it was likely to lose.

Further evidence from two other witnesses has also called into question Ms Sturgeon's version of events.

Ms Sturgeon is to face a Holyrood inquiry into the affair on Wednesday.

The Scottish Conservatives said there was "no longer any doubt that Nicola Sturgeon lied to the Scottish Parliament and broke the ministerial code on numerous counts."

The party said they would be submitting a motion of no confidence in the first minister.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-56259056

Hugh 02-03-2021 20:28
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36072698)
Indeed - Conservatives will be tabling a no-confidence motion.
Quote:
Nicola Sturgeon is facing calls to resign after new documents raised further questions about her involvement in the Alex Salmond saga.

The government has published emails showing it continued a legal fight with Mr Salmond despite its lawyers advising it was likely to lose.

Further evidence from two other witnesses has also called into question Ms Sturgeon's version of events.

Ms Sturgeon is to face a Holyrood inquiry into the affair on Wednesday.

The Scottish Conservatives said there was "no longer any doubt that Nicola Sturgeon lied to the Scottish Parliament and broke the ministerial code on numerous counts."

The party said they would be submitting a motion of no confidence in the first minister.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-56259056
Pritti amazing the Tories want a politician to resign over breaking the Ministerial Code... ;)

Mad Max 02-03-2021 20:29
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36072732)
Pritti amazing the Tories want a politician to resign over breaking the Ministerial Code... ;)

I see what you did there...;)

1andrew1 02-03-2021 22:47
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36072732)
Pritti amazing the Tories want a politician to resign over breaking the Ministerial Code... ;)
:D

Sephiroth 02-03-2021 23:34
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Asking around my acquaintances, I've detected a change of heart since a year ago.

They all support the union and abhor the notion of Scotland going its own way. But ...

They're tiring of the constant poisonous crap coming from the SNP and are tending towards the "sod 'em" mantra that I've been espousing for some time now. They'll be sorry, but content to watch Scotland go down as a consequence of its own folly. There will be intense interest in the "Withdrawal Agreement" and political fortunes will depend on there being no generosity from the rest of the UK.

There is some concern as to the potential flight south of wiser Scots who see the writing on the wall if the Referendum (if at all held) goes the wrong way.

All the above is why the UK government won't allow a referendum for a very long time.

pip08456 03-03-2021 01:15
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36072771)
Asking around my acquaintances, I've detected a change of heart since a year ago.

They all support the union and abhor the notion of Scotland going its own way. But ...

They're tiring of the constant poisonous crap coming from the SNP and are tending towards the "sod 'em" mantra that I've been espousing for some time now. They'll be sorry, but content to watch Scotland go down as a consequence of its own folly. There will be intense interest in the "Withdrawal Agreement" and political fortunes will depend on there being no generosity from the rest of the UK.

There is some concern as to the potential flight south of wiser Scots who see the writing on the wall if the Referendum (if at all held) goes the wrong way.

All the above is why the UK government won't allow a referendum for a very long time.
With respect Seph your aquaintences are immaterial. Like it or not the SNP are playing the political aspect of Brexit in that it didn't align with the wishes of the Scots.
It doesn't matter if eventually things may turn out better or not, the Scots feel they were sidelined because of the Union. That is the hand the SNP seem to be playing. That is the hand that works for them, or at least little Jimmy Krankie.

Sephiroth 03-03-2021 10:31
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36072774)
With respect Seph your aquaintences are immaterial. Like it or not the SNP are playing the political aspect of Brexit in that it didn't align with the wishes of the Scots.
It doesn't matter if eventually things may turn out better or not, the Scots feel they were sidelined because of the Union. That is the hand the SNP seem to be playing. That is the hand that works for them, or at least little Jimmy Krankie.
You've misunderstood the purport of my post, Pip. If my acquaintances are English weathervanes (and you are not as I understand), then the growing "sod 'em" mentality is a heavy reason why the government won't allow a referendum.

On the "sidelined" notion of your post, the Scottish hypocrisy is stark. On the one hand, they (SNP) don't want to be bound by the EU Referendum yet they want a binding referendum on Scottish secession from the Union.

Hugh 03-03-2021 11:02
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Not sure if Wokingham Tory Waitrose shoppers are a "weathervane" on this matter.

Not that there is anything wrong with being a Wokingham Tory Waitrose shopper, but I don’t believe they could be classed as a valid sampling of the broader English electorate.

gba93 03-03-2021 11:20
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36072817)
Not sure if Wokingham Tory Waitrose shoppers are a "weathervane" on this matter.

Not that there is anything wrong with being a Wokingham Tory Waitrose shopper, but I don’t believe they could be classed as a valid sampling of the broader English electorate.
Maybe the referendum should include voters in the other UK countries to see what the feeling across the all the UK is.

papa smurf 03-03-2021 11:26
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gba93 (Post 36072819)
Maybe the referendum should include voters in the other UK countries to see what the feeling across the all the UK is.
That would be fair as we all have intermixed over the centuries since the union was created.

1andrew1 03-03-2021 11:29
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36072817)
Not sure if Wokingham Tory Waitrose shoppers are a "weathervane" on this matter.

Not that there is anything wrong with being a Wokingham Tory Waitrose shopper, but I don’t believe they could be classed as a valid sampling of the broader English electorate.
Not the same situation here, but it always amuses me on this forum when people dispute a representative survey of 2,000 as not being large enough but are more than happy to take a couple of mates' views from down the pub as being representative of the entire country. :D

Sephiroth 03-03-2021 11:35
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36072817)
Not sure if Wokingham Tory Waitrose shoppers are a "weathervane" on this matter.

Not that there is anything wrong with being a Wokingham Tory Waitrose shopper, but I don’t believe they could be classed as a valid sampling of the broader English electorate.
They couldn't fit all the Wokingham Tories into Wokingham Waitrose. Good job there are 4 x Waitroses within about 3 miles of Wokingham.

As to your point, I didn't classify my acquaintances as a weathervane because I prefaced my remark with an "If". Have you evidence to the contrary? What do your acquaintances now think?



---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36072823)
Not the same situation here, but it always amuses me on this forum when people dispute a representative survey of 2,000 as not being large enough but are more than happy to take a couple of mates' views from down the pub as being representative of the entire country. :D
If you're indirectly pointing to me in your remark, I prefaced my weathervane observation with an "if" and was putting my report "out there" to see if that's what others are finding.

Btw, I don't frequent pubs.

1andrew1 03-03-2021 12:09
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36072824)
They couldn't fit all the Wokingham Tories into Wokingham Waitrose. Good job there are 4 x Waitroses within about 3 miles of Wokingham.

As to your point, I didn't classify my acquaintances as a weathervane because I prefaced my remark with an "If". Have you evidence to the contrary? What do your acquaintances now think?



---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------



If you're indirectly pointing to me in your remark, I prefaced my weathervane observation with an "if" and was putting my report "out there" to see if that's what others are finding.

Btw, I don't frequent pubs.
To confirm - I'm not pointing to you hence my opening words "Not the same situation here..."

---------- Post added at 12:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gba93 (Post 36072819)
Maybe the referendum should include voters in the other UK countries to see what the feeling across the all the UK is.
Wouldn't that just add extra cost with no benefit? It's not up to people in Wales to decide if Scotland leaves the UK.

papa smurf 03-03-2021 12:15
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36072829)
To confirm - I'm not pointing to you hence my opening words "Not the same situation here..."

---------- Post added at 12:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------


Wouldn't that just add extra cost with no benefit? It's not up to people in Wales to decide if Scotland leaves the UK.
Breaking up the union affects every UK citizen, so we all need a vote.

1andrew1 03-03-2021 12:21
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36072833)
Breaking up the union affects every UK citizen, so we all need a vote.
How?

Sephiroth 03-03-2021 12:24
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36072833)
Breaking up the union affects every UK citizen, so we all need a vote.
Is that what your "acquaintances" are saying?!

Of course, you know how the SNP would howl if that referendum went the wrong way for Scotland; conversely, it would be a hoot if the England and even Wales vote amounted to a "sod 'em".

papa smurf 03-03-2021 12:27
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36072834)
How?
We would put an x in the appropriate box the same as we do for every vote.

---------- Post added at 12:27 ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36072835)
Is that what your "acquaintances" are saying?!

Of course, you know how the SNP would howl if that referendum went the wrong way for Scotland; conversely, it would be a hoot if the England and even Wales vote amounted to a "sod 'em".
Yes seph they could get thrown out.

gba93 03-03-2021 12:28
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36072835)
Is that what your "acquaintances" are saying?!

Of course, you know how the SNP would howl if that referendum went the wrong way for Scotland; conversely, it would be a hoot if the England and even Wales vote amounted to a "sod 'em".
I've taken a strawpoll of 1 person and they said "sod 'em" - problem sorted!

nomadking 03-03-2021 12:29
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36072834)
How?
Because apart from anything else, England will be expected to have to keep propping up Scotland.

Pierre 03-03-2021 12:39
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36072821)
That would be fair as we all have intermixed over the centuries since the union was created.
I'm first generation English, so I'll qualify for a Scottish passport! As I'm sure will hundreds of thousands of other people too.

Sephiroth 03-03-2021 12:53
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gba93 (Post 36072838)
I've taken a strawpoll of 1 person and they said "sod 'em" - problem sorted!
"They"?

gba93 03-03-2021 13:15
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36072842)
"They"?
Okay, if you want to be picky "He/She" although "they" is grammatically correct

Chris 03-03-2021 13:20
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
“They” is perfectly acceptable to denote a single individual whose sex is unknown, or withheld for whatever reason.

Sephiroth 03-03-2021 13:59
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gba93 (Post 36072843)
Okay, if you want to be picky "He/She" although "they" is grammatically correct
Yeah - I know. But I've got to be consistent so that Hugh can have his sarcastic fun.

Anyway, I'm reasonably sure that the English are thoroughly fed up with the present Scottish leadership and feel that if ordinary Scottish citizens wish to follow that line, then "sod 'em".

Hugh 03-03-2021 16:21
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36072846)
Yeah - I know. But I've got to be consistent so that Hugh can have his sarcastic fun.

Anyway, I'm reasonably sure that the English are thoroughly fed up with the present Scottish leadership and feel that if ordinary Scottish citizens wish to follow that line, then "sod 'em".
Consistency over accuracy?

I believed better of you...

papa smurf 05-03-2021 10:10
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Sturgeon ridiculed over failure to 'recollect' 50 times in crucial conduct hearing – VIDEO


https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ond-hearing-vn

What a farce.

Carth 05-03-2021 13:25
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Selective memory is all part and parcel of being a politician isn't it?

Forgetting to declare an interest in certain ventures, forgetting you're not allowed to claim for 17 extra homes, forgetting there's a lockdown on when you travel to Scotland, forgetting what you said yesterday when quizzed about it today etc etc

Hom3r 05-03-2021 13:28
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Lets hope her successor is pro Union and not pro destruction

papa smurf 05-03-2021 13:33
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36073161)
Selective memory is all part and parcel of being a politician isn't it?

Forgetting to declare an interest in certain ventures, forgetting you're not allowed to claim for 17 extra homes, forgetting there's a lockdown on when you travel to Scotland, forgetting what you said yesterday when quizzed about it today etc etc
I thought the first bit of her misleading evidence was the oath, after that it was all bullshit.

Hugh 05-03-2021 13:56
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36073166)
I thought the first bit of her misleading evidence was the oath, after that it was all bullshit.
Terrible when politicians say misleading things - it’s good that people speak out about these things...


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56281934
Quote:
Dozens of Covid contracts had not been published when Boris Johnson told MPs they were "on the record for everyone to see", campaigners say.

The Good Law Project said the PM's assurance last month was "not true" because government lawyers had said 100 contracts were yet to be revealed...

... The contracts have attracted scrutiny because many were awarded directly, without being opened to competition, because of the urgency of the pandemic.

Challenged about the ruling in the House of Commons on 22 February, Mr Johnson said: "All the details are on the record."

The prime minister added: "The contracts are there on the record for everybody to see."

But three days later, in a written legal response to the Good Law Project, seen by the BBC, government lawyers admitted 100 contracts for suppliers and services relating to Covid-19 signed before 7 October had yet to be published.
Seem to have missed the CF outrage on this one...

papa smurf 05-03-2021 14:13
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36073177)
Terrible when politicians say misleading things - it’s good that people speak out about these things...


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56281934

Seem to have missed the CF outrage on this one...
What has this drivel got to do with Scotland leaving the UK?

Hugh 05-03-2021 15:24
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36073182)
What has this drivel got to do with Scotland leaving the UK?
Not nice to call Boris’ untruths "drivel"...

papa smurf 05-03-2021 15:30
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36073196)
Not nice to call Boris’ untruths "drivel"...
Oh i get it you're unhappy that saint Nicky has been found out and you're trying to divert the thread towards the Tory's,any way this is a great video
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ond-hearing-vn

heero_yuy 05-03-2021 15:37
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
They do say a fish rots from the head down. :erm:

Hugh 05-03-2021 15:38
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36073198)
Oh i get it you're unhappy that saint Nicky has been found out and you're trying to divert the thread towards the Tory's,any way this is a great video
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ond-hearing-vn


Not a supporter of her or Scottish independence, so you are barking up the wrong tree with that assertion.

(also not a fan of the hypocrisy of criticism of one set of people for actions, but glossing over/ignoring the same actions in others.)

papa smurf 05-03-2021 15:39
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36073205)
They do say a fish rots from the head down. :erm:
That interview smelt like 5 day old fish.

Hugh 05-03-2021 15:39
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36073207)
That interview smelt like 5 day old fish.
Spoken like a Subject Matter Expert... :D

papa smurf 05-03-2021 15:42
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36073206)
Not a supporter of her or Scottish independence, so you are barking up the wrong tree with that assertion.

(also not a fan of the hypocrisy of criticism of one set of people for actions, but glossing over/ignoring the same actions in others.)
That could make an interesting thread, why not start one?

Chris 05-03-2021 15:49
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Please get a room, you two. Let's keep to the topic.

Pierre 07-03-2021 08:05
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
http://news.sky.com/story/scottish-i...gests-12238501


A small poll, and you know I don’t have any faith in polls, but worth bringing to the attention of this thread

Chris 07-03-2021 08:33
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
The sample size is good, especially bearing in mind Scotland’s population is far smaller than the uk’s as a whole - UK-wide newspaper polls frequently use 1,000 adults.

The only thing that makes it not directly comparable with previous ones is they didn’t weight for voter turnout. They seem not to have done that because their interest was more to do with the effects of the recent shenanigans with Salmond and Sturgeon. In that sense their polling question was already loaded so refining for voter turnout would be a pointless additional step anyway.

Still it is an interesting contribution to the picture. I suspect this May’s Holyrood elections will be quite the spectacle.

jfman 07-03-2021 10:20
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
As with any poll in the immediate aftermath of "an event" it'll be interesting to see if it sticks or voters reflect on it and as time passes go back to considering other issues.

As always the propaganda wing of the British state at the BBC gave the story undue prominence with Sarah Smith falling into the trap of hearing what she wanted to hear rather than what was actually said resulting in her claim on the 6 o'clock news that Salmond urged Sturgeon to resign, something she retracted to her 24 thousand twitter followers.

https://twitter.com/BBCsarahsmith/st...634144258?s=20

I know the BBC aren't what they used to be but I'm going to work on the basis that the 6 o'clock news gets more than 24 thousand viewers.

But yes I do agree this election will be fascinating, with unintended outcomes of the PR system perhaps the margin between majority Government/minority Government propped up by Greens or perhaps outright minority Government where not even the support of the Greens gets to a majority.

papa smurf 07-03-2021 10:31
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
She's as popular as ever with the snp bots.

And gets a fly past by the Scottish air force.

SNP SUPPORTERS have been mocked on social media after three politicians tweeted identical messages supporting party leader Nicola Sturgeon.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/14...s-Ross-Twitter

jfman 07-03-2021 10:46
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36073416)
She's as popular as ever with the snp bots.

And gets a fly past by the Scottish air force.

SNP SUPPORTERS have been mocked on social media after three politicians tweeted identical messages supporting party leader Nicola Sturgeon.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/14...s-Ross-Twitter
https://www.theweek.co.uk/107071/tor...minic-cummings

Would never catch the Tories doing anything like that...

spiderplant 07-03-2021 21:39
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36073412)
The sample size is good, especially bearing in mind Scotland’s population is far smaller than the uk’s as a whole
The population size is irrelevant. 1000 is always a good sample size, which is why they use it.

It's nicely explained here: https://ukpollingreport.co.uk/faq-sampling
Extending the soup analogy, it doesn't matter how big the bowl is - you only need one mouthful.

:notopic: :rant:

Mick 18-03-2021 19:33
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
BREAKING: Scottish Parliamentary Committee has concluded that First Minister Nicola Sturgeon misled Parliament.

https://news.sky.com/story/sturgeon-...finds-12249817

TheDaddy 18-03-2021 20:35
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36074724)
BREAKING: Scottish Parliamentary Committee has concluded that First Minister Nicola Sturgeon misled Parliament.

https://news.sky.com/story/sturgeon-...finds-12249817
She shouldn't survive this, should she?

Dave42 18-03-2021 20:38
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36074731)
She shouldn't survive this, should she?
no but what about all times Westminster Parliament has been mislead they would be no one left if they all had to resign

jfman 18-03-2021 20:46
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36074732)
no but what about all times Westminster Parliament has been mislead they would be no one left if they all had to resign
Indeed. It's an easy deflection.

Standing for election on her record in a mere seven weeks time.

Mick 18-03-2021 20:50
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36074732)
no but what about all times Westminster Parliament has been mislead they would be no one left if they all had to resign
Can you list all the Committee based inquiries and investigations in to Westminster being misled?

I can think of one particular time, when Labour lied about WMD in Iraq and took us to an illegal war.

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36074731)
She shouldn't survive this, should she?
Absolutely not. She’s been found to have lied and breached the ministerial code. She needs to go as per their own rules.

jfman 18-03-2021 21:04
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Do they say she lied and breached the ministerial code or is that spin?

The quote I’ve seen says “potentially” breach the ministerial code which is far from a done and dusted conviction in a proper court.

Mick 18-03-2021 21:08
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36074737)
Do they say she lied and breached the ministerial code or is that spin?

The quote I’ve seen says “potentially” breach the ministerial code which is far from a done and dusted conviction in a proper court.
Lying in the Scottish Parliament is a serious breach of the ministerial code and it specifically says when this rule is breached, it should result in resignation.

Mr K 18-03-2021 21:09
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Well if Boris is the standard, she's in the clear...

Mick 18-03-2021 21:15
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36074741)
Well if Boris is the standard, she's in the clear...
It’s the same shit, different day with you all the time. Same applies to you what I said to Dave42, list all the times British Parliament has been found to have been misled by Committee based inquiry?

I’ve already listed one time it was by Labour, you do the rest or stop talking bollocks.

Do it.

Carth 18-03-2021 21:18
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
I'd vote for her, just think . . . next time they might get someone useful :shocked:

jfman 18-03-2021 21:19
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36074740)
Lying in the Scottish Parliament is a serious breach of the ministerial code and it specifically says when this rule is breached, it should result in resignation.
I’m not disputing that part I’m interested in whether they are they calling her a liar or are they saying “potentially mislead”. They’re not one and the same.

The fact this is being rushed out by Laura K and the likes tells me all I need to know. The report when published will be extremely woolly, not definitive and not enough to force a resignation. Which they know.

1andrew1 18-03-2021 21:46
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Sky News points out that "knowingly" is not in the text of the committee's report. The report says "mislead" and then "potentially breached the ministerial code". Does "potentially" rescue her?
Quote:
A Scottish parliamentary committee has concluded that First Minister Nicola Sturgeon misled parliament.

Sky News understands that Holyrood's harassment committee has reached the conclusion by a majority vote ahead of the publication of its final report.

Members have decided that Ms Sturgeon misled the committee itself and, as such, misled parliament and potentially breached the ministerial code of conduct.
https://news.sky.com/story/sturgeon-...finds-12249817

Mick 18-03-2021 21:50
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36074747)
I’m not disputing that part I’m interested in whether they are they calling her a liar or are they saying “potentially mislead”. They’re not one and the same.

The fact this is being rushed out by Laura K and the likes tells me all I need to know. The report when published will be extremely woolly, not definitive and not enough to force a resignation. Which they know.
You do know the Committee in question, that has voted on whether Sturgeon misled, has a SNP majority, with the Greens?

Chris 18-03-2021 21:51
Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 
It looks like the committee's Green MSP discovered her backbone. The SNP MSPs will all have voted to exonerate Sturgeon of course. On matters of confidence and supply they can normally rely on the useful idiots in the Green Party to prop them up. Not today, it seems.


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