Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We need to see the recording from last night ASAP, as I doubt any truly informed discussion regarding the meeting can take place until we do.

Please Simon & 80/20, get the video out into the public domain ASAP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Might be time to stop all the back-slapping (no disrespect Alex, you put on a great show) but last night was an achievement not a victory. And imho it still leaves us on the bottom rung. Remember this meeting was courtesy of 'Phorm Productions' even if they didn't fare that well, they have still managed to get the focus around their agenda, their PIA.

I don't want Phorm opt-out or opt-in and I won't see achieving opt-in as a success. Where the hell is the UK Government? When will it support its citizens? This mess is a long way from over.

Simon - we await your reaction to last night with great interest. It's somewhat concerning to hear the last few words of your statement..."and Companies can still make money". What a sell out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As soon as my uploads are done I'll post links here. Something to get discussion on last night's presentations if nothing else.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Panasonic I think I can both understand and respect where you are coming from with regards to Simon Davies (I originally accused Simon of a conflict of interest in the register comments about a month ago or however long ago it was - a view I now consider to maybe be incorrect but thats to digress) but I just personally think it would be harsh to judge Simons involvement with Phorm on a 10 second clip in the channel 4 news coverage.

My opinion is that when we get to see the full footage of what transpired at the meeting then we will be much better informed to make those kind of judgements.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as a loose opposition group we are still in limbo as to what can be done.
We have no legal opposition to make asVirgin customers. We actually have nothing to complain about other than the fact Virgin say they are looking to maybe use this system.
We have exhausted the debate up to now and until we read more of last night for us to take issue with I doubt there is more to be said.

I'm really not interested in fighting a legal battle on behalf of BT users who's rights might have been compromised. I am however interested into pressuring the Home Office to get some balls and start investigation this technology and it's previous use from a technical point of view with relation the the law of tha land they are sworn to uphold.

I might be writing to a few national newspapers enquiring into the price of a full page advert to create a piece designed to bring this issue to the general public. This would of course have to be extremely carefully worded and only give statements of fact and link resources so that people may choose to make their own minds up about it. I'm pretty sure that would be a go unless the ad departments of the nationals saw a conflict with current partners and chose not to be involved.

I am also considering writing to Michael Moore ( bowling for Columbine ) after all, his country is next on the list. Yet I'm unsure if having him investigate it might not ultimately be a hindrance given his somewhat over-zealous approach.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ill repeat the URL as it seems everyone missed it

the best reporting iv seen so far, and something along the lines id hope Mick might write (what happened to that CF news?)and pointed out to him earlyer...

http://www.ibls.com/internet_law_new...stnews&id=2037

"
The real issue is privacy.

The ICO said that Phorm must be quite careful to receive support from the Government, stating: "Phorm and the ISP will also have to comply with the PECR even where they do not process personal data. Under Regulation 6 of PECR a user must be informed when a cookie placed on their computer, given clear and comprehensive information about the purpose of the storage and given the ability to refuse it being placed on the system....

Users will also be able to configure their internet browser to block all cookies from Phorm and therefore prevent any profiling without a cookie being loaded. How this operates in practice will not be apparent until the trials by the ISP get underway or the product is rolled out but it should be possible for Phorm to achieve compliance with Regulation 6."

but OC we cant block cookies or we are then tracked by the Phorm DPI kit so that to phorm webwise is getting wrong.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks CaptJamie. As I said before its imperative that Phorm/80 20 thinking get the full footage out ASAP. It was frustrating enough not being able to go to the meeting myself, then frustrating that there was no live webcast, if we dont have their release by this time tomorrow my criticisms of them will mount again.

I do hope that Phorm and their PR drones arent going to slow down the release with arguments about the editing. I dont need any fancy titles sequences, any flashy preludes or "extras." I want it in its pure, unadulterated, raw totality.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm pretty sure that unless the ISP's implement the system as in informed opt-in and then place those users in a different IP range to be routed through a separate network from the general traffic ( which of course will be most people. I have every faith that even the most clueless of internet users, given the opportunity to sign up for a system that gives them adverts, more or less relevant will simply say no. Even if the ISP plays on the fears of users about security, many are wiser than they were in this area and already know that they have 'something' in place doing that job ) then we will be unable to avoid being profiled by the DPI equipment even if no data is passed to Phorm. That still boils down to interception and IANAL but it still looks illegal to me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

First Zimbabwe, now this; is there no end to the procrastination? ;) Perhaps Phorm have insited the footage be sent away for anonimising first.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as we would have got if they had done the live stream as requested, they didnt and so we are dependant on others good will.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would be unfair to accuse 80/20, who I understand will be releasing the video, of editing the footage to make it appear more flattering to 'Krazy' Kent. Yet further delay does indeed make one wonder if they are simply reluctant to release it whilst they are discussing the best way to deal with the backlash.

Of course we are very privileged to have CJH and his footage soon available and that may force their hand anyway.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Cool I watch Click all the time.

You are a hero to me!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not sure if 80/20T are responsible for the video or not, all I know is there is one that is going to be released in the near future (I don't know when). I got the impression it was an independent crew but as I said, I don't know for certain.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wonder if this is why they want us to just accept phorm..


http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...ng-web-traffic

Some ISPs in America already work as phorm want over here..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm argue the footage doesnt need to be anonymised. They only filmed people below the head. Honest guv. They didn't even look at peoples faces. They wouldn't do such things. This is a new standard in anonymity. What do you mean the footage shows faces? Its not true. Not true. Neener, neener, neener, la, la, la :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've lost count of the number of times I've said the footage should be unedited. I'm sorry I couldn't get it done earlier but my family is without net. No editing is needed - the full proceedings need to be posted in the raw (so to speak) so that we can see all that transpired and reach our own judgements.

It's taking a while but it's getting there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that was my exact point days before the PIA meeting when i told Simon here #25 13-04-2008

(remember the Zimbabwean voting... and still waiting for the result; we dont want that kind of happening going on, do we, on this most important issue in the UK online community to date)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought I had read comments from Simon on here stating they they had arranged for the event to be filmed and would be releasing that video 'soon' . They certainly did say so on the front page of their website but somehow between now and last night the article about the meeting and the video promises have been removed.


I was able to copy and paste that information from their site and post it here before it was removed.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post3501.html


Also Alexander I know of your respect for Simon and I hope I have not offended you with my recent comments regarding 80/20 thinking on this matter. I have tried to be as impersonal as possible and not make it about Simon as an individual.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

CJH please don't take my comments to be any kind of criticism or complaint against you regarding footage taken at the meeting. I am grateful that you and alexander were able to attend and that you were there to record as much as you could.

My comments were 100% aimed at whoever is responsible for releasing the proffessionally filmed footage.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder...is there a link between this Phorm malarky and Berkett's comments on net neutrality?

Is he setting us up for a, "get Phormed and enjoy priority routing for your traffic or opt-out and get to the back of the queue"?

Just idle thinking, that's all...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

None taken OF, none taken. Kind of says something that little me can get his recordings up and in the public domain before the professionals :-) And no, I don't have curly hair or a curly wig! I always wanted to be Bodie...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In a word: YES. The link is that he's become stupid overnight and is trying to lose as many customers as possible.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Overnight? You're too kind to the man...surely he's been working on his condition for ages:D There's a whole foetid history of bad decisions on his watch, isn't there?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:LOL: Very true. You raise a good point. Its been something he's been diligently working on and perfecting over a very long period :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=Pasanonic;34530391]

"I'm really not interested in fighting a legal battle on behalf of BT users who's rights might have been compromised".

I'm a BT BB customer and have posted once or twice on their forum(s) up until now but the two original threads were closed when critisism of BT/Phorm became too intense and the moderator has made life very difficult for posters on the latest open thread. EG: the last post there was made at 4.37pm today. To all intents and purposes there is nowhere there to make ones feelings known or to ask questions. This forum appears to be the only place where the the discussion is open, vibrant and worthwhile so I hope that I and other BT users can join in and feel welcome and some, tho' not I'm afraid non-techie me, might make valueable contributions. After all, it's all one web and this affects us all regardless of ISP.
Many thanks.
Chris.
PS: Forgive my ineptness if I made a mess of the quote usage. I'm a total novice still finding my way about.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

cool, there are a lot of professionals that watch that Click.

so it should be easy to to show sympathy to the Home Office guy getting duped, just like everyone else with this unlawful Phorm CEO trying to infest the UK and the EU with his US profit at any cost even the laws .... if spin works it can also work for both partys i say....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey guys I need some help. I have decided, partly as a bit of light relief, to submit the new term I coined yesterday (terra-phorming) to urban dictionary. My definition is as follows (major thanks to Alexander for this, he WILL recognise it):

A process which aims to turn people into products; a global warehouse selling pieces of everyone and our privacy to the highest bidders.

I need a good example of its use so that I can submit it to the website in the hope they will accept it. The trouble is it needs to be short and snappy and help give the term some useful context. Any ideas?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=Bobcat;34530444]Oh mate, welcome and please don't misconstrue my comments to mean that i want to dismiss BT users from the discussion or that we should not be concerned about them. More that i feel concentrating the Home Offices attention on the alleged illegal trials performed on BT users will perhaps get more attention from those actual people who's rights have been compromised. Difficult I know as BT are claiming they can not know who was involved ( I'd take that up with them first if I thought I was in the group )

The more people we have involved the better I was just trying to give my opinion that as a group of concerned Virgin customers as we are at the moment we need to concentrate our efforts in making Virgin understand that this is unacceptable. Should there be a legal challenge in the future I suspect that we will then have more to complain about and I'll be of a very differing opinion.


So once again Welcome. I agree with you, this is a great place have a say.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How about..
"Yeah that guy would terra-phorm his granny for a fiver"

"My computer is infested with spyware... I've been terra-phormed!!

Terra Phorming turning your privacy into profit.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Dude, what's with the mountain of unsolicited junk adverts you have?"
"I can't help it. I've been Terra-Phormed".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How about "Kent's plan was to terra-phorm the entire planet, one country at a time, starting with the UK." ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello everyone. I had tried to stay away from registering here (you guys are doing a great job - I just prefer to read what goes on here) but I would like to reply to pasanonics comment here:

I think getting some kind of justice for the 2006/2007 trials is key in getting Webwise stopped in it's tracks for this reason:

If the ICO, Home Office or whatever make the right decision and confirm that those trials did contravene various laws then it is quite likely that BT would be forced to identify and write to everyone who were unwittingly used in those trials.

The current "total" so far is 108,000. If that is true BT may have to write to all those 108,000 customers stating exactly what they did (spied on them). Now how do you think the vast majority of those 108,000 customers are going to feel once they realise how they have been violated?

Not only will many decide to drop BT as an ISP and phone service but an extremely high percentage of them will stick two fingers up to any form of Webwise opt-in system presented to them.

Of course, if BT can not identify those 108,000 users then they may be forced to write to EVERY customer stating that they may have been part of the secret trials. That would be even more damaging for BT and should ultimately see the end of Webwise and various directors.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think we should keep a very open mind about who is for or against phorm on this forum . Many new posters , not a bad thing i know .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Terra-phorming will commence shortly, resistance is... futi.. what.what do your mean their resistance is working.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree. I just think that the people involved in those trials need to find proof that they were indeed profiled and then make an official complaint to the home office and the police and seek advice about a possible class action suit.

I'm not in a position to do that or to work on behalf of anyone wanting to do that.

As a Virgin customer I can only raise my concerns about the trials with the home office and will get the same standard reply fobbing me off.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Some great examples there vis-a-vis "terra-phorming" and I wish I could use them all. I may submit 2 or 3 and then if they accept the submission maybe others can go and add their own appropriate definition and examples to help flesh it out some too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Taking inspiration from this quote, I offer something in the way of current internet speak, the lolcat. No, there are no cats anywhere here. )I'm allergic to cat hair). Featuring former rock guitar legend Ritchie Blackmore during his performance at the 1974 California Jam (he trashed a tv camera with his guitar and blew up an amplifier in an explosion that nearly blew him into the audience)

Anyway,

Ritchie says...

BTW, it's Kent's presentation that's taking ages to upload here...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

100% agreed. I'm here because I hate the idea of what Phorm/webwise is all about. I'm certainly not a VM fan!

At the moment, BT customers have the biggest stick with which to beat Phorm and the Phorm connected ISP's in general. I think they should have all the support we can give them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe hes clark kent , anyone got any cryptonite,,,,, il get me coat:rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok I have submitted it with 3 of the examples were supplied. Hopefully it will be accepted. No one says we cant have fun while trying to bring about the demise of Phorm.

As for Kents presentation taking the longest to upload its reassuring to know that even the computer doesnt like Kent/Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've not had a good day.

I fear I have given people the impression that I dislike Simon Davies and that I don't support BT customers.

Bad day indeed.

I'm off to stick to what I'm good at and finish a portrait I'm working on.

I'll look forward to seeing the video.

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Being the silly bitch that I am, sat here listening to some rock/metal classics.. I've threw together a song specially for Phorm.

Now if only I could get some folks together to record it :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd be tempted to do it as a spoof a la Spike Milligan with the chicken and teapot orchestra. I've got a Guitar Hero controller :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am a BT customer that was involved in the 2007 trial and I have proof of it. I recently emailed our local PC contact (as we live out in the sticks) from his email address as stated on the Kent Police website, briefly explaining the problem and how to progress further in reporting it, but it has just bounced back after several days, so I will have to try again in person this time.

In the meantime I have just written a 2nd letter tonight to the BT Chairman's Office asking why they had not replied to my 1st letter but now stating that I now demand my MAC and cancellation (after successful migration) of my recently renewed contract (just prior to all hell breaking loose) without penalty due to their ILLEGAL interception of my data stream on 1st July 2007. Along with the cancellation of my BT Vision and BT Talk service and I said as soon as we get an LLU provider I will move my phone account also. I even stated that I would even cancel my frequently used DABS Online account as it is BT owned and have nothing else to do with BT ever again. Their loss. If a large number of BT users did the same they would lose a lot more money than PHORM is paying them.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK, last night's meeting. I'm sorry I couldn't stay long enough to chat more with Simon and Alexander in particular. Had to run like a nutcase to get the trains as it was, so I have only the presentations I mentioned before. Sadly I don't have the Q&A session or Marc Burgess's talk. As I mentioned before I place a high value on being able to see people in the flesh and hear what they do and don't say on a particular issue.

These are my perceptions on last night's meeting. The footage here is unedited and offered as a way of getting some informed discussion going on.

Simon gave an introduction to the meeting. He believes that there is a way forward with Phorm and, as 8020T are contracted to undertake a PIA with Phorm then 8020T are being asked by Phorm if there is a way forward. That's a statement of fact as I see it. I don't doubt Simon's earnest beliefs either generally or on this issue. He said that Phorm are being open and honest with him. They haven't really been open and honest with us though. That's why I doubt Phorm.

Kent's presentation, well you'll see it for yourself. I was struck by what I felt to be a definite lack of class on his part. This isn't about Google, Yahoo or FIPR, it's about his company and what he wants to do with my (and our) data. He repeatedly said "That's an interesting question" and wandered off - His slating of FIPR over RIPA was not the act of someone going out to persuade a rightly cynical public that Phorm is deserving of anyone's trust. Spin, PR and gloss but nothing that changes my perception that Phorm has nothing to offer me or the people who are my clients. 10-15 minutes was supposed to be allocated for each speaker. Kent went on for 20 minutes.

Let me also say that I have worked alongside managers, directors, MDs, CEOs and COOs whose mantras are openness, honesty and respect. I know their beliefs, opinions, general attitudes and behaviours. What I saw from Kent doesn't match those people.

There has been mention of a "letter of comfort" from the Home Office. Perhaps Alexander can clarify what a "letter of comfort" really is and whether it has any status as legal opinion in law?

Richard Clayton's presentation was about as technical as things got during the time I was there. One heckler persisted and was eventually put in his place. I wonder who that person was and what his interest was? Richard and Alexander seem to have a far better comprehension of the law than Kent and Marc. If Phorm are to be as open and honest as Simon expects them to be then all of Richard's points will be addressed openly and honestly in the public domain. I managed to get some of Richard's Q&A session.

Marc didn't give a presentation as such, just spoke from notes. If only I had bought one more set of batteries! The point that "If a search engine can index a site we take that to mean we [Phorm] can too" grated with me. The user agent string enables website owners to specify who can and cannot index their site. Phorm is not a major search engine.

Alexander's speech was excellent, putting these events into social, legal and historical context and speaking for itself.

Sadly I had to dash at that point.

A reminder - here we were told that "please do bring along vid cameras if you wish, just to be on the safe side."

In conclusion...

Phorm have not convinced me that they are in any way deserving of my trust or that of my clients. I'm not talking about Google, Yahoo, MSN or anyone else, I'm talking about Phorm. Their persistence in saying "well G does this" is nothing more than attempting to evade questions. Stop doing that and peoples' perception might just start to improve. Phorm have not convinced me that they offer anything of value to me or my clients. Anti phishing is a redundant offering. Firefox has that capability anyway.

Phorm's entire approach has been arrogant from the start. Assuming that it will be mandatory for all users (until the backlash started), the use of manipulative language via overzealous and unbelievably accident-prone PR, and only engaging with people when the product is almost ready to roll.

The arrogance continues over the user agent. My clients want to be able to be found by search engines but not to be indexed by an advertising company. Talk about opt-out has had to happen because of the backlash. Phorm would rather nobody knew about any kind of opt-out because the more people who do opt out the less likely they are to succeed.

If Phorm are to be as open and honest as they are claiming and as Simon Davies wants them to be then here are a few starting points for them, all to be published in the public domain. Consider them "interesting questions" to use Kent's favourite phrase.

There are issues about the legality of Phorm. Publish the full QC's opinion and also the QC's details as well. Phorm say they are legal and are confident of it - publish the legal opinion. Why hasn't it been published? Is the QC scared that their association with Phorm will harm their reputation? Does the QC suddenly lack confidence in their opinion?

There are claims about the data they record. Publish it - verified by an independent security expert and let the community explore and test Phorm's claims.

Allow ISPs and independent IT security auditors (not accountancy houses) access to the Phorm provided equipment on the ISP's infrastructure. Allow ISPs to monitor and report on it for audit purposes. Anything less makes it an alien presence on the network for which the ISP should not accept any responsibility (and which they should refuse point blank IMHO).

Create a user agent string so website owners can say yes to search engines but no to Phorm.

Ultimately this may (and perhaps should) end up in the courts, the final legality of Phorm being decided on by legal minds for once and for all. And the sooner the better.

BT certainly should be taken to task for its (IMO) illegal trials in 2006 and 2007.

We as ISP customers and website owners should make our arguments to 8020T for the PIA process (especially our refusal of permission for our sites to be "Phormed"), judge the PIA when it is published and then make our own decisions.

Personally I'd love to see Phorm told its system is illegal, BT dragged through the courts and VM actually speaking out and saying "Thanks but no thanks". That needs people to do things over which I and maybe we (as VM customers) have no control. We need to keep this story going, spreading the word and pressing for government action.

Thanks again to Simon for organising the meeting, Dr Richard Clayton and Alexander for speaking so well. If anyone did get a recording of the group discussion I'd love to see it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many thanks Cap'n. :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sorry, as I know that Alexander has great feelings of respect for Simon Davies but I also still feel very concerned.

Why does the problem exist? Because some people want to break the law. There is no imperative to seek any compromise with that position. I don't understand why Simon seems to feel bound find a "solution" - I thought he was running a privacy impact assessment process, not brokering some kind of compromise. There is no problem that we or anyone needs to find any solution to, other than just say "no" to interception.

Personally, I don't see what acceptable solution there could be: I can opt in until I am blue in the face, but how can I ever give consent on your behalf to the interception by my ISP of messages that you send me? That would be like saying, as long as I give consent, BT can tap your phone calls because you are talking to me. So even if I wanted to find a compromise, (which I don't), I don't see how there could be one that was legal.

For Simon to say he is sure a solution can be found is in effect to say that interception without consent can be legal. But there has not yet been a proper legal debate.

I repeat, I appreciate and respect Alexander's feelings about Simon Davies as a person, but I don't know Simon at all, and perhaps selfishly, what I really care about is not having to live with this grotesque invasion of my privacy and everyone else's.

And where did all this stuff about ISP funding come from, all of a sudden? That's a matter of policy and outside the scope of a PIA. It is, however, on-message as far as Kent's current sales pitch that "everyone can make money".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Why not email it to the home office aswell I can supply an email address for Simon who has been answering my emails about phorm. I have no asked for answers to two questions.


I hope this email will be enough to make the trials legality be checked first then those whoi were instigating the trials brought to justice for the customers who were used.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:handshake

Well done, Colin, that's great work!
Thanks for being in the vanguard...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reminder
Home Secretary Jacqui Smith will be in Downing Street on 17 April for a live webchat from 14:00 BST.
http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page15259.asp

:knock:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wonderful, when any normal working person can't quiz her... :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK having watched the videos of Simon Davies and Kent Ertegrul I am deeply irritated. Not by Simon Davies but by Kent. I am going to watch the video of Richard Clayton then Alexander and then I am going to go to bed and get some sleep and mull it over for a bit tomorrow before posting again. Nite all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After seeing Simon in person I truly believe in his integrity. What I believe the view is is that the "markets will decide", i.e. the people, this change in direction is greed driven but is untested(other than secretly). BT et al are most likely going opt-in, so they have have to encourage people to do that. As we have seen, 10 years ago we were fighting to keep pop up ads down, pop under ads off it was hell for everyone on the web. The public have seen the damage done by adware/spyware companies, almost everyone now has some form of anti-adware/spyware on their PC, most come preinstalled. I saw the blog yesterday from f-secure saying they are already developing anti-phorm cookie technology. The public don't like and don't want this kind of intrusive technology. I believe that it will fail in the market if it doesn't fail in the courts first. Yes Simon is fraternising with the enemy, but lets not forget that at the end of the day he is also working for us.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The actual quote from the f-secure blog:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With Jacqui's history with the internet exhibit A, it could well be teatime before she's got her webcam logged on.

On an on topic note - thanks for the videos, CaptJamie. Just what the doctor ordered.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Colossal post! Many thanks for the excellent videos.

My opinion, if anyone is interested:
Alexander: well done, sir; given the short notice you had for this you did an excellent job.
Richard Clayton: agreed with just about everything he said; this is downright illegal in my opinion, too.
Kent E: wouldn't trust this man as far as I could throw him.

Here's the bit a lot of people won't like. I'm still not completely convinced by Simon Davies/80-20 Thinking; I'm troubled by his comments that there can be a way to make this work. Returning to his words I quoted earlier about Google/Doubleclick, I just can't see how he can say what he said about that deal, yet feel that the DPI system that Phorm/Webwise propose could be/can be acceptable. JMHO.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=12751

Quite a long and one sided view,and if i hadn't been correctly informed by the cf ,i'd see phorm as not something to worry about.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just watched Simon's bit (I'll watch the rest in the morning) but I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that he thinks Phorm's system as proposed is acceptable. He seems to me to be saying that a system could be devised that would be acceptable and within the law that would enable Phorm to do business. And I think he's right and IMO would have to start with 'no interception without explicit consent from all parties in the data exchange'. This would be difficult to implement, is not what is currently proposed and I think - well pretty much know - would not work as a profitable business model so Phorm would phail.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here Here, and thank you for puting up the Video of the meeting. :)

Everybody types faster than me, it suks been Dyslexic!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Watched the interview's taken by CaptJamieHunter nice work btw :)

Just quickly add my comments about persons in it

Simon Davies - Still concerned like others and not sure what he's trying to prove as even he himself must be concerned if hes a privacy expert and has heard other experts view on the matter - i feel sorry for him actually after signing the contract for this episode before he actually knew of phorms past as 121 media. (One of phorms Competitors leaked the link - Possibly Nebuad)
Hope you come out of this with your reputation intact simon wouldnt want that company to drag me down.

Kent - Same old product wish wash and people trying to buy into his flawed idea of illegal interception is good for buisness (i guess it is for those that pay you and not for those you could eventually blacklist by ruling the garden gate) backed up by no actual independent verified proof.

Dr Richard Clayton - Absoloute Star (This Guy And Alexander would be welcome to pay me a visit anytime as are both very genuine) i may have got mixed up with him in prievous post sorry about that deepest apologies again i was tired (got a 1 year old daughter teething away atm and had no sleep at all and was reading so much phorm stuff and alexanders finished report my brain went to mush - Must stop using forums as instant messenger sometimes to get flamed for it :().
Pity that the phorm pr team were planted to heckle the guy.

Alexander - Put everyone's views across perfectlly very well done and loved the people in to products comparison (Lets not forget phorms previous product as 121 media called people on paper - Same idea and vision to illegally spy and serve ads - different deployment)
Massive thanks from all Alexander :D.

Very well done to all keep up with getting the message out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

this thread, its just full of interesting facts; so your staging/staged the classic silence treatment and staying away because your friends in the group dont personally agree with the cause, good for you and your fellows, although it was a public meeting for the stake holders and you are, we assume, effected too, you are in the UK right, with an effected isp? so were more than within your rights to attend;anyway we did see your brave stance against your paymaster, and applaud you for it, please dont go holding it agains those 3 fellows after all they may have had no choice but to work and so couldnt join your workers revolution
:angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So on that basis, what do you think Simon's PIA is going to say?

:hyper:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ho ho - the Channel 4 page is excellent, I particularly like the title: http://www.channel4.com/news/article...+phorm/2023952

Also, whoever posted that FoxNews page, that's great stuff: Phorm should be forced to link to that page from their consent requesting popup so people really do have "fully informed consent"...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was having a tidy up this morning, and I found my dvd of a film called Taking Liberties, anyone who has any interest in the erosion of our rights here in the UK it's well worth watching and touches on all aspects of law that Blair and his cronies pushed through and it's effect on NORMAL people.

I got to know about the film through another forum I'm a member of, and after seeing it frankly I was shocked, and why I'm so strongly opposed to Phorm, we have to take a stand.

Official Site here: http://www.noliberties.com/

And it's available on dvd for under a fiver from Amazon.

Thanks to Captn Jaime for uploading the vids, I'll have a watch of them shortly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just want to say thanks to CaptJamie for uploading the vids. I have watched them all but am still taking time to digest everything that I saw and heard. Anyone have any information on when the professionally filmed version will be posted?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I tried to watch them, but the first video, intro with Simon, the movie goes on for like 2 mins and then stops & goes back to the begining, what happened to the other 8 mins of the vid???

I REALLY, REALLY wanna watch all this!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good morning all.

Found a reply from the Earl Of Northesk in my mailbox this morning.

"Dear CaptHunter,

My thanks for the attached.

You are correct in your assessment that, as a regular reader of The Register, I am acutely aware of the issues surrounding Phorm and the use by BT and others of their 'Webwise' software product - and am as appalled as your good self as to the apparent breaches of the DPA and the RIPA that they imply. (I would add that it may also be that the software breaches the Computer Misuse Act.) I currently have a question for written answer on the matter awaiting a response from the Home Office. And, if I may say so, your e-mail provides me with fertile material to scrutinise the issue with even more depth and diligence, albeit that I am currently overseas and so a little constrained.

I am uncertain as to how much reassurance it may offer you but, as I have done for some ten years now, I intend to continue to prosecute the case for individual data security and privacy as strenuously as I can. As to the specifics of the Phorm case, it strikes me that the actions of BT (specifically the 'secret' profiling and interception of their customers' data) may well constitute a criminal offence (in respect of RIPA and CMA). To that extent it is conceivable that any aggrieved subscriber could refer the matter to the police for investigation - although, as you will be only too well aware, the police's resources in this area are abject.

Once again my thanks for taking the trouble to e-mail me and please do not hesitate to contact me again re your concerns and/or to alert me to any additional information.

Yours &c.,

Northesk"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A simple question from the perspective of someone who is not on one of the three ISPs, but who runs a website:

Will Phorm result in increased traffic on my website when visited by users from the three ISPs who are opted in to Phorm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Watching it again now and it seems to be ok. You can download the original (it's a WMV file) which has better picture quality than the FLV you get on the site.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

download it and/or run it through VLC or MPC it works fine even if it is Divx/Xvid, thanks BTW CJ, very useful to get the lazy news sites to see the other side ;) what your original format BTW? puting it through a AVC encoder, VLC for simplicity,might produce a smaller file at the same bitrate.

with the right spin, and taking the usual "Click!" format and stance into consideration beforehand could produce some interesting mass uptake of the legal and moral invasion of privacy when Alexander takes to the studio.....i wonder if PhormUKPRteam have any tips for keep it punchy ;) , morning BTW catching up on the chat i see.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The camera's native format is MPEG - I tried converting to FLV but the file sizes were too large for the webspace I have so I converted to WMV (using WinFF) and found that DivShare was ok with that and converted it to FLV anyway. It's a bit quick and dirty but it works. There's a lot going on down here in the hangar so quick and dirty it will have to be for now.

It's a bit of an indictment on news sites (how come El Reg hasn't reported on this?) that my video seems to be the first put online?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Heres a quick tip for Phorm to remove all there opt in queries and legality about the whole thing - Put it on a freely distrubited media cd,dvd or even a old floppy get the isp's to distrubute it and the users installs it if they wish, end of story as the T&C's are written on the media or on the insert and remove the intercept point.

In no way should phorm ever as a company be allowed to control the way we view things and store our data as the first step onto the intenet. (i as a person denounce your whole buisness idea's and your philosophies).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

VERY NICE ;)

given he makes the time to read ElReg it might be interesting to also give him the direct links for this CF thread and the recent HO emails from florence, and how it appears he's been duped and taken out of context purely for the profit of Kurts and the ISPs ventures in customers copyrighted datastream pimping.

i wouldnt hope that he might register here and directly contribute perhaps,but it does not harm to ask and invite him....just incase,some direct quotes cant be a bad thing for our side after all.

if he only has the time to browse the thread now and again, we can still keep him and others informed in an ongoing fashion..

BTW Mick,paul,rob etc is there an add-on this the board software so as to pull off CF links and store them with comments, a personal posts reference if you will ?

the reason is clear, in this thread alone there are masses of posts that hold real gems of information, but currently its really hard to keep track of them for later reference, just an idea anyway.....


BTW rob, you had another response from that http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...comment-163549 thread....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats a really positive reply for the Earl, he's obviously on the ball regarding the whole Phorm issue.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...horm_shambles/

"The government has refused to investigate BT's covert wiretapping of thousands of its customers in 2006 and 2007, despite its own expert's view that without consent Phorm's advertising targeting technology is a breach of criminal law.

Whitehall's willingness to turn a blind eye to the fact that tens of thousands of people were spied on by big business in order to serve up targeted marketing has angered web users. "I'm absolutely sickened and appalled," Pete John, who has tried to interest authorities, told The Register this week"
http://ad.uk.doubleclick.net/ad/reg....AAArNS-sAAAJx?
Nice timing for a reply back to Earl Northesk :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

dont want to go OT but FLV,WMV etc are containers , what you need to do is learn about the codecs and then you put these AVC codec encoded video inside your favourite container, that can be FLV,WMV, MPeg or any other container....

as it happens iv talked about that container thing before here, CF being the helpful MB that it is ;) so have a look at this search
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/se...archid=2246864

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Two great bits of news. The Earl Of Northesk response is reassuring and the new register article is fantastic too. Glad to see the Lib-Dem Don Foster is keeping the pressure up too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

invite Don here too, cant have to many people reading the most informative thread on the net can we ;)

---------- Post added at 11:21 ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 ----------

:welcome: Jelv.

in what way do you mean more traffic, if you mean your server will get more get requests for a given users single browser get, than it appears not.

the bouncing around forging cookies, requests etc seems to be more from the end users end given the data we have so far, but ill leave a more indepth answer to the web servers experts here...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Terra-phorming has been added to the urban dictionary site. Its now up.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...terra-phorming

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excellent Phorm shares have dropped 15% today already

Lets keep the pressure on !

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Impact on your web site in traffic terms is likely to be small.

However, given their current statements, you may see a significant increase in requests for robots.txt (because Phorm will need to query this file for every browser who accesses your site, and is unlikely to cache it for future reference, given the number of web sites on the internet). Contrast with Google; Google will query robots.txt then ignore the rest of your site for days.

In operational terms, if your site includes application driven content (like a CMS, shop, or eCommerce app) you are likely to see higher latency on first connection, and lower end to end reliability and performance.

In copyright terms, the effort you expend designing, organising, gathering, optimising, authoring and editing content will be used by Phorm to target advertising... to benefit your lazier competitors.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm is down 16.81% so far today :shocked:

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...&timeframe=480

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wooh - Ha! Back from Hols and all refreshed. How are we all? Would have loved to go to that meeting tho, but things always seem to clash - my first hols in two years - and it clashed!

Thanks Alex - just seen all the work that you have done, and glad Click have got hold of you. They (Dan) phoned me - and I was away and suggested they look at this forum to find people they could talk to as I was away.

Just seen the iii website - another 16% off the share price this morning. Seems like people are getting cold feet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have now watched every video,and after I have got something to eat & drin, I willwatch it again, as there are a few points I would like to make, and of course, there is always the contradictions that Kent likes so much, so I shall have my notepad & pencil at the ready andI will be back later with the points I picked out.

Nice work Captain :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We need to look out for the big volumes being sold, like the trade yesterday.

I would love to see it go below 1000 by the end of the week.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is the video online then? I can't find it anywhere. 8020 has no links.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Two big sales at 11.39 and 11.42 wiping another 50K off them :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34530525
for the Capt Jamie Hunter video fest

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My analysis and links to the footage are here. The monthly bandwidth is taking a real hammering - they've only been up 12 hours and already it's hitting 50 per cent! A backup account is currently being prepared :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you could make a torrent of it and find a server to take it from or use the Vuse/Azureus upload user content is probably the better long term option!
http://azureus.sourceforge.net/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that would be nice :)

but on the other hand i wouldnt like to see them go bust before a prosecution if its possible

i would like to see this sort of thing declared illegal in court so they or others cant come back in a diferent guise

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you might also find a way to make use of this too, but its getting some bad press due to it not feeding back the torrent when finished, and its not clear if its good for the general use.

it seems to be ok for grabing large files for mirroring to other places though so take a look anyway perhaps and report back

http://torrentfreak.com/imageshack-bitorrent-080405/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm about to email Viviane Reding, the European Comissioner for Information, informing her of the latest developments. I'll also ask if she could put something on the newsroom section of her site regarding the response she gave to Oar Wellian.

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barro...g/index_en.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding the share price, even if it drops to a few pence, it does not put them out of business. They have plenty of money in the bank.

It does, however, limit their ability to raise more money, and the publicity is not too bright either. It's a shame really that they have just raised £32M.

Shareholders might want a new CEO and business model though!;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

im keeping an eye on the http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj...s/index_en.htm

but its very sparse there, perhaps she might try and get the working party involved and get some updates put there ASAP to keep us informed....

---------- Post added at 12:46 ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 ----------

heres the direct publish url for vuse (the fancy GUI part of AZ does it too btw)

http://www.vuze.com/app

---------- Post added at 12:53 ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 ----------

lol , 30 members and 76 guests, i guess the CJ videos links have become popular....;)

welcome guest readers, join up and post your comments, its always good to hear another POV.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Are both of the £1 million trades from yesterday confirmed?
I couldn't find any details this morning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL, it seems there are people helping to inform the http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=12751 news coverage and bring a little ballance to the copy ;)

btw all the new guests might like to pop over to the BT-RIPA petition if you have a few seconds spare....
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_pe...ned.cgi?BTRipa

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well the google graph still indicates a volume of 141k shares yesterday, which would suggest 2 large trades.

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=LON:PHRM

(use the 1 month view and put the cursor over yesterday, volume shown top right of graph).

I suspect anyone wanting better information has to pay for it.

------

Even simpler. On the 3 day view you can still see the trade, with a volume of 130k!)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=12452

Is Phorm's targeted ad system illegal?
:dunce: or just someone who's fallen for kents spin ?