Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The onus isn’t on Hamas to present itself for annihilation. The absence of that doesn’t justify carpet bombing civilian areas, bombing churches, hospitals, refugee camps, etc.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Technology has changed. People's access to a range of media that provides a more rounded view of events, and information more rapidly and graphically have changed. People's reaction to the Dresden bombings would likely have been different if they saw the results on their TV screens every morning.

And whilst the law always plays catch up to technology and social change, that has changed too, as Hugh has outlined.

---------- Post added at 09:34 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

It's not really a constructive way to engage with others by calling them whiners. You wouldn't call someone that in a debate down the pub so why do it online? :confused:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

So where are these clearly defined targets? They are mixed in with other buildings. The whole area is one giant front line.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Hiding/shielding enemy combatants in civilian areas, churches, hospitals, refugee camps etc is also a war crime.

So what does Israel do if it has to go through human shields to achieve its objectives?

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.ne...OHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Interesting, even-handed (imho) article in today’s Times Comment section

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9...6f9b9155c3c2d1

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

A lovely thought experiment is just that, regardless of how well educated the thinkers are.

A quick skim does however point to wider considerations around proportionality- including necessity. Considering the minimal threat Hamas actually pose to Israel - there is no “clear and present danger” from Hamas to Israel who have more than adequate defensive capabilities to defend themselves from rockets.

It’d be interesting to know if Israel are keeping tabs on what “legitimate” military target is being destroyed for each of the thousands of bombs being destroyed since there’s probably now more than 1 bomb per Hamas militant.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's a fair article. I think everybody will in agreement that an invasion of Gaza will be bad for everyone - all round, with absolutely no certainty that the IDF will be able meet their two objectives. On that point he is correct, and uses that argument to say the war is not just because for a just war you need to be able see the outcomes.

But he offers no ideas on what Israel should do, instead.

His quote from Aquinas, that he then ignores is also prescient:

Hamas are the very embodiment of evil.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And what’s displacing a million people and raining bombs down on them, cutting off electricity, fuel and food supplies if it’s not evil?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The IDF does not = Hamas, if you want to try to twist that false equivalence go ahead, as you have several times.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m not claiming the IDF are equal to Hamas. They’re only following orders, as the military saying goes.

I’m asking if the description I made, on its own merit, without being conflated with the actions of anyone else, could be considered evil?

I think if on a human level your answer is no, or starts ‘but…’ you have a problem.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I don't think it's evil. If it was the IDFs one and only objective to purely kill civilians, cause terror and fear to make a political point, take pleasure in the suffering and rejoice at all the deaths...

Then I would call them evil.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Nobody said it was “purely” an objective to kill civilians - merely that it was a specific and controllable outcome from their actions.

If Israel’s point isn’t political, then what is it?

I’m certain somewhere in Israel there will be people taking pleasure and rejoicing. If we can have one person in this thread alone - then it’s certainly going to be a not insignificant minority of Israelis who have a vested interest.

I’d love the thoughts of those Stanford academics on specifically the blocking of food and water in aid convoys. When and where can that be justified? What military objective is achieved?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

In the absence of clearly defined targets, what else is Israel expected to do? Nothing, but wait until the next attack?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Nobody has suggested Israel “do nothing”.

Israel will always be waiting for the next attack regardless.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I think "evil" would be greatly impacted by motivation. Acts can be terrible but not evil.