Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

That sounds exactly like what happenee to Nigel Farage at LBC. :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

That'll be another remainer out of the way then. :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Not sure what you're on about but if a government minister concedes it breaks international law, I can't see any motivation for them to lie about it.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Subjugation by other countries is certainly not one of them.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I think he is in talks with North Norfolk Digital. :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54072347

He was knighted by the current PM for his work on the WA - doesn’t sound like "working for the "other side*""...

*unless, of course, the "other side" is believing in not breaking International Law ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

What if it is? It's the content that matters.

---------- Post added at 14:55 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

Civil Servants used to be independent, but these days, too many of them don't know the meaning of the word. That's precisely why we are seeing the start of a clearout. Long overdue, too.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

What exactly is meant to be breaking international law?
Everybody is a bit short on specifics.
The old backstop provisions had that it remained in place unless and until the EU agreed to otherwise. A similar situation arises with the new agreement. If the EU side of the Joint committee don't agree on anything, then everything is blocked.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

So he got us the crap agreement,no wonder he's jumped ship now it's under review.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I think you are on the right lines, nomadking. If we ignored the treaty or did not abide by it there would be a case to answer, because the treaty remains in effect after the Withdrawal Agreement ends regardless of the outcome of negotiations.

We haven't seen the detail yet, but it seems that all they are doing is tying up some loose ends.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Exactly what I thought until today's surprise resignation. You don't resign over a tidying-up exercise.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Yea sounds like he made a right balls up of the agreement or he wrote it to favour the EU.:shocked:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Remainers are resigning over Brexit all the time, Andrew.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The ultimate sulk:)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

As reported by Guido, he’s the sixth this year. We’re some way beyond the point where senior establishment remainers throwing in the towel can be called a surprise. They’re shipping out as and when they finally realise that good old fashioned civil service obstructionism can’t help them water down Brexit. It’s obvious from the EU’s continued intransigence that close association and dynamic alignment or, in the event of no deal, a continuing say in our affairs based on some obscure wording in the WA is their end game. I’d be astonished if lawyers working within the civil service and familiar with the WA text aren’t fully aware of this. He’s been rumbled, he’s walked, game over.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

So what have the Joint committee agreed about the NI arrangements? If nothing has been agreed, then there is no alternative but to impose something. If you like, a sort of "backstop" in case no further agreement is made. The committee last met in mid July.



Therefore under international WTO rules it can't have different customs tariffs and rules. Otherwise it would constitute a different(ie non UK) customs territory.
WTO Rules

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Enough of a balls-up to be knighted for his efforts. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 16:35 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------

Leavers too, no doubt.

Do we actually know he's a Remainer?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

the upper crust always get knighthoods for failure.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Boris Johnson liked the agreement - https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...9-october-2019

Closet remainer - get him!

Edit;
So did 329 other MPs, get them too!

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

It's usually just the biggest idiots,i'm surprised chris Grayling hasn't been elevated to godhood.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I'm surprised to see you participating so willingly in a government damage limitation exercise. This is a lawful v unlawful question, not a Remainer v Leaver debate.

Some useful thoughts from David Allen Green, a former UK government legal service lawyer.

https://www.ft.com/content/6c3a641f-...e-16ede1656d20

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Is this the same David Allen Green who has been a guest on the Remainiacs podcast several times in 2019

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

What other choice is there? You can't wait forever for the Joint committee to come to an agreement, but at the same time something needs to be in place by the end of this year. That is BECAUSE of the NI Protocol, not in spite of it. That something was meant to be an EU trade deal.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Personally I don't see what the fuss is about :shrug:

Some big wig high cost lawyer chappy resigns because something has upset him . . . wow . . . get a grip, stop being led by the media frenzy :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Non-legally binding referrendum: WE MUST ACCEPT THE RESULT AT ALL COSTS

Legally-binding agreement: Eh, no big deal.

The duplicity continues :shrug:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

We're breaking the law. Boris is responsible, lock him up ! :)

No country will take us seriously for any trade deal. Our word means nothing.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Lighten up, or go watch a black and white movie......:D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

:tu:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

:D:D:D
I think you can get away with stuff like this in the short term. But it will always come back to bite you as Tony Blair found out.
We've got over 750 international agreements to make to replace those made via the EU. This situation will only slow these down.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I'd like to be doing half as well as Tony Blair is after being 'found out' :p:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

His busking income has gone downhill since Covid. ;)

---------- Post added at 09:01 ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 ----------

Controversially, he was not elected to chair the Intelligence Committee so there's some hope left.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

If only BoJo had listened to Margaret Thatcher a bit more:
https://twitter.com/damacan35/status...792331/photo/1

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Maybe he listened to bob dylan

Come gather 'round, people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin'
And you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

After yesterday's news, I think this is probably closer to the mark. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL8chWFuM-s

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Pretty sure Bob never signed (or threatened to break) International Law... ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Pretty sure I aint bothered as long as it gets me (us) a better Brexit by redefining the subtle nuances currently in place.

It's a little like all those legal tactics a while ago trying to block leaving by questioning the 'wording' of terms . . . I'm sure you remember ;) :p:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Why should any country do a deal with us when we have shown we are willing to break a treaty?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

No idea mate, I don't do negotiations. It does show we're not willing to accept a shitty now flawed part of a previous agreement though

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Since we're just quoting random people to make a point, here's another one for you all:

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2020/09/3.jpg

Why would any country make a favourable deal with us when we prove we'll break the law to get out of it? Utterly weakens our position.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Jo Public: What about the oven-ready Brexit deal? It's September and we're still faffing about fishing rights and fields of a level-playing variety.

BoJo Apologist: No, no, no! Don't be daft! The Brexit deal wasn't oven-ready, it was the Withdrawal Agreement which was oven-ready!

Jo Public: What kind of oven-ready Withdrawal Deal requires you to break international law?

BoJo apologist: Oops!

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Answer, one which isn’t followed up by a permanent treaty.

There is precedent for ‘treaty override’ in the U.K. and elsewhere. It happens from time to time. It should always be avoided if at all possible but sometimes it isn’t. Sometimes sovereign nation states have competing international obligations. Because they are sovereign, they are free to decide how to resolve that; sometimes that will involve breaching the terms of an international treaty.

“international law” is a term widely misused. There is no such thing as international law, there are only treaties. There is no criminal sanction for breaking “international law” because it isn’t criminal law, although this week the term is clearly being used by Remainers and opposition MPs mischievously to try to draw an equivalence.

Sometimes the consequences for breaching a treaty are spelled out within the treaty. Sometimes the consequences are hard to pin down - they may affect a country’s international standing or its ability to sign other treaties later on. The magnitude of the effect most likely matches the magnitude of the breach, and the country’s general international standing.

I suggest that in this case the actual consequences for the U.K., *if* these treaty-breaking clauses are ever activated, will be rather less than the fuss being made over them this week.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

When I proclaim that setting a house on fire and running into it would be a bad idea, I'll continue to make the statement that it's a bad idea when the building actually catches fire. I'll also continue to say that it's a bad idea long after the building has burned to the ground. This will never not be a bad idea and remoaners will never stop telling you that it's a bad idea and always has been.

It was a bad idea 4 years ago and it's a bad idea now. The fact that we are having to break international law is just yet more proof that the house is, in fact, on fire and we're continuing to run into it.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The house is burning to the ground?

Brilliant, it wasn't a very good house anyway, too many power sockets in the wrong place and the services were a bit of a mess.

Time to build a new and better house to our specifications, not those of 20+ architects with differing ideas :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

There are some interesting clauses in the Withdrawal Agreement if either side does not comply with the agreement in total. Here are some highlights;

Article 170 - if an agreement/resolution has not been reached in 3 months, an independent arbitration panel needs to be set up to resolve the differences
Article 171 - this panel would be lawyers or judges basically. 2 from each side and a fifth voted member from those 4 nominees as a chair
Article 174 - any dispute that affects EU law goes the the ECJ and that ruling is final (!)
Article 178 - if the guilty party does not comply with the arbitration panels (or ECJs) decision within a reasonable amount of time then the complainant can suspend;

(Part Two is citizens rights)

So basically, if the rules are broken and cannot be fixed, the entire Withdrawal Agreement goes except for the Citizens Rights provisions AND any other agreements between the UK can be suspended.

You can see who voted for this here

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Brandon Lewis is not a Remainer nor is he an opposition MP. He is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland who yesterday admitted "This does break international law in a specific and limited way".

How can the Withdrawal Agreement be oven-ready if it results in a cabinet minister admitting it has to be amended in such a manner?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

If we've left the EU, can the ECJ still rule on it and can we still be suspended from it?


Maybe the agreement was oven ready, but some fool turned the oven down?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Just because something is "oven ready" doesn't mean you can't spice it up halfway through the cooking process.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Brandon Lewis is specifically correct. What’s your point?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Yep, in respect to matters that affect EU law, we agreed that the ECJs rulings are supreme (just like when we're in the EU) For matters that don't affect EU law, the arbitration panels findings rule if a mutual resolution can't be found.

In the case of this market bill, it looks like state aid is an issue and, where this would apply to Northern Ireland, that affects the Single Market and therefore EU law

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

That the term "international law" is used far more widely than by opposition MPs and Remainers which is what you suggested - it's being used by the Government.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Shame we haven't made provisions to live somewhere else while the house is being rebuilt. Nor did we get everyone out of the house before it was engulfed. And thanks to the structure of the house being compromised to the fire, it's a safety risk going into it until it's made safe so rebuilding it is just going to take longer.

You're just defending the guvmin for the sake of it. Nothing constructive at all - like protecting the UK from unintended consequences if there is no deal.

Forget about criticising what you were sold on in January, this is now. Now is now and perhaps you could analyse what other lies and mistruths you've been sold so you're not taken in again.

(It's funny how this non-sense argument can be so easily flipped back and it still adds nothing to the discussion. Kind of expected better of you, Seph).

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The withdrawal agreement is now almost well and truly cooked, with only 3 months to go. Then it gets stuffed. :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

You misunderstood my point.

Obviously remainers didn’t invent the term. This week, however, it is being wilfully misused by some in a way that allows the impression to be formed that the government is doing something criminal.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

In a limited and specific way...

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Interesting commentary from the FT's editorial board.
https://www.ft.com/content/351fe714-...2-fcd3533fff45

---------- Post added at 22:48 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

On the other side of the party, the ERG want the government's controversial bill to go even further. Not an easy few weeks for BoJo.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/sta...64163236450305

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Most of the criticism I've seen has been blue on blue, with many highly distinguished Conservative politicians believeing it is their duty to both their party and country to speak up.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The key news by the evening was the controversy over international law, the secondary element being the why. So to me, it's a logical order given the timing of the programme.

If the news item was on earlier in the day before the controversy arose, then stating "In a move that the government describes as necessary to head-off a consequence of a no-deal Brexit, it is proposing a bill that does xyz." would be appropriate.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

News stories have a life of their own. They can't simply repeat the news items from the morning if they have evolved. This one did significantly. I think the bias lies more in Berks than the Beeb in this instance. (I may well agree with you on other BBC stories but disagree with you on this one.)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

As with almost every other vehicle of mass news distribution, the most important aspect of any story is the sensational headline that draws the crowd through the door . . . only to find a tatty interior with tired and faded soundbites that say nothing at all.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

We can also throw in the notoriously left wing Daily Mail. Here are their three headlines in their 'Battle for Brexit' section;

Or Sky news;

Or ITV news;

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Yep . . . not many sensationalist headlines in that list, no sir, all looks good to me :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

:erm:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The BBC, Sky and ITN should report the news accurately and impartially. They should not have to worry about whether their reports give aid to one side or the other. The BBC and its peers should not be organs of the state.
Singling out the BBC from its two peers Sky and ITV and ignoring their news reporting suggests unconscious bias IMHO.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Oh oh oh, I get to bring up this now!

https://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/9920

That big US trade agreement we all pinned our hopes on goes out the window if we break the treaty. So no EU trade agreement, no US trade agreement.

What was this about "it's okay to break the law if it means a better deal" or whatever?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Thought you'd be happy at no chance of chlorinated chicken :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Funnily enough, I'd rather have a trade agreement with our closest allies that also enforces the food standards that would prevent Chlorinated chicken!

However now my concern is that we'll weaken our negotiating position even further. No deal with the EU means we'll be desperate for a deal elsewhere and the US is a prime candidate. The US can, as I suggested in an earlier post, point at our lack of integrity and demand more from us. They can also use the GFA as another bargaining chip "You broke the GFA, how are you going to make it up to us?".

This sadly doesn't decrease the risk of Chlorinated chicken entering our country, it increases it.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I guess much depends on which 'experts' you listen to regarding the quality and safety of chlorinated chicken . . and pork ;)

As to weakening our negotiating position, didn't that already happen with the rest of the world when we decided to 'go our own way'?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Ownership is irrelevant, the BBC should not be an organ of the state. The laws of the UK mandate the BBC, ITV and Sky News and others to report news impartially.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Even the EU say there are no safety concerns over it. That is not what there ban is based on.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Strange - I thought Mark Francois was the Chair of the ERG; I thought he would have very forthright views on this?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Part of me wonders whether this legislation along with the Moonshot leaks are a couple of dead cats to distract from the handling of Covid and our economic woes. Time will tell.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I couldn't see any sensationalism but there's a degree of personal judgement there so we can happily reach different conclusions. One man's accessibility is another's sensationalism.

What I did feel was unfortunate was your apparent bias in condemning only the BBC when the Mail, Sky and ITN also took the same approach on the basis that it is "taxpayer funded". All TV news has to reach the same standards of impartiality regardless of funding mechanisms. You shouldn't hold the BBC to higher standards than its peers.

---------- Post added at 16:35 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------

Interesting times ahead.

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-eu...month-12068247

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

They really don’t get it yet, do they.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

As Khan said to Kirk, you are in a position to demand nothing, whereas I am in a position to grant nothing.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

We'll never agree on the first one but to your credit, you do acknowledge your difference in approach to the broadcasters but as you set higher standards for the BBC it will never fare well for you.
I'm a bit disappointed by your second paragraph though. The government and other organisations used this terminology too and I've explained how stories don't stay static and evolve during the day.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

:D :D

I'm wondering if they'll now have an emergency meeting to discus kicking us out of the EU . . hey don't laugh, anything is possible with that lot ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

No, but the threat of a court case should wake 'em up. ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I see what you did there ...

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Tom Newton Dunn
@tnewtondunn
A Tory grandee rebellion is underway to give Parliament a veto on the Govt's plan to override the Withdrawal Agreement. Sir Bob Neill has just tabled an amendment to the Internal Markets Bill, also signed by Damian Green and Sir Oliver Heald. More on
@TimesRadio
now.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I doubt any amendments to frustrate the bill will be successful.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

agree it wont get passed but there is some disagreement on tory benches

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

All so unnecessary. If onlyBoJo hadn't misread Rule Britannia as "Britannia waives the rules" we wouldn't be in this fine mess. :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

very true even worse they still not got a plan even after 4 years

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I'd rather leave it and I'd rather not have to ask every single restaurant and takeaway I ever visit if they use it or not.

I don't know why people are so happy and willing to dump food standards.

Did we get another "remain parliament"? That was the last excuse when the government tried to break the law.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

tbf, it wasn’t illegal, just unlawful...

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Interesting memo from Jonathan Jones to 1,500 civil cervants reproduced by ITV's Robert Peston. Right-winger Peston also notes of BoJo's government, "Their supposed Whitehall purge looks more like a Whitehall farce." https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1304131578638012416