Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Well if they do go independent they should NOT be allowed to keep Sterling.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Not to mention the loss of the Barnett formula, declining revenue from North Sea oil and the cost of all those new government departments they’d have to set up.

The SNP does not appear to have a plan on how to make up the huge revenue deficiency that would arise from separation.

Incidentally, the analogy with Brexit is just plain wrong. Most Brexiteers saw either better job prospects for themselves or better global trading opportunities. They did not vote to be poorer. That was just Remainer hype.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Anyone who thinks that Boris leaving would make any difference is living in fantasy land.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Quite. It’s the English that are their perceived problem.

They begged to be part of us a few hundred years ago when they were bankrupt.

What will happen next time they ask, when they realise they can’t make it on their own?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Others disagree. Stephen Glover for example. Look at the evidence - two key issues fanning independence are Boris and Brexit. We can't change the folly of Brexit but we can change Boris.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So there was no appetite for independence before Boris or Brexit?:confused:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No, andrew just likes to argue with everything, I think hes jfmans twin brother :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Can you show me where I said there was no appetite for independence before Boris or Brexit? :confused:
---------- Post added at 23:43 ---------- Previous post was at 23:40 ----------

I agree, Seph, but equally I accept that others may not agree with us. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Sounds more like his Wife if you ask me ... :p::p:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I don’t think so, Seph, I think these forums are for discussions, not nitpicking arguments.

---------- Post added at 12:00 ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 ----------

You implied it, Andrew, by saying that Boris and Brexit were the problems preventing the Scots from voting for the union.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I didn't say or imply that which is why Nomad King was unable to answer my question. I said "two key issues fanning independence are Boris and Brexit". Perhaps I should have typed a longer sentence like ""two key issues fanning the flames of independence are Boris and Brexit" to avoid any misunderstanding.

That doesn't mean that there wasn't an independence movement around before these two aspects came into play. There clearly was as there was a referendum in 2014.

---------- Post added at 12:11 ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 ----------

Citing two articles which point out that Boris is unpopular in Scotland and is therefore increasing the independence vote is not nick-picking in my book but I appreciate that you may see it differently.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Which is why if we didn’t have Boris and Brexit, the whining of the separatists would continue anyhoo! They will always find an excuse for yet another referendum!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I agree that Scottish Nationalists would continue to make their case, but there seems to be a correlation between Brexit and BoJo and the rise in Scottish nationalism.

The fact that both are unpopular north of the border and that polls are now tilting in favour of independence cannot be denied.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

There is some detailed polling here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-55803103

The rise in support for independence is not being driven by the completion of Brexit; that was priced in after the 2016 referendum. The way the covid crisis has unfolded and perceptions of how Sturgeon and Boris have handled it are at the root of current polling.

Polls like these are largely driven by emotional considerations. Hard practicalities are faced in the polling booth - this is why opposition parties poll well mid-term and then go on to lose the next election. We all like to believe the grass might be greener but when it’s decision time we need to be pretty sure it is before we take the leap.

The fundamentals that drove the vote in 2014 haven’t changed. Scotland would pay an exorbitant bill for taking itself out of the UK and would face social and economic upheaval in its relationship with England that would make the problems we presently face at the channel ports look like a Wednesday afternoon in Trumpton. Every single argument against Brexit can be levelled against Scexit, except it’s exponentially worse, because Scotland’s economic and social ties to England run far deeper than those of the UK to the EU, while Scotland’s resources deployable in mitigation of the upheaval are far less. Yet these sorts of questions tend not to be addressed by people answering opinion polls.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Which makes it all the more bewildering why Sturgeon is doing so well, given that the vaccine rollout is far below England’s. Why is nobody creating about that?

Sturgeon’s Holyrood government is failing the Scottish people in so many ways, but for some reason they just seem to be sleepwalking through the debris left by the farcical SNP.

I used to think the Scots were a canny lot. Now I’m not so sure.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It’s on most of the front pages in Scotland this morning, because the daily vaccination rate on Sunday was the lowest yet. She’s trying to deflect with talk of opening 24/7 vaccination centres but if the hard numbers don’t improve soon the story won’t go away, because frankly there’s nothing else to talk about at the moment.

A substantial number of votes in Scotland are now cast on constitutional rather than policy or performance grounds. That said, until covid the polls weren’t looking brilliant for the SNP ahead of this year’s election. Their record on everything else is now being conveniently masked by Nippy’s knack for giving a good speech in a crisis. Still, if they do manage to feck up vaccine distribution in the way they have so much else in Scotland, then come election day it may yet have an impact.

Well there’s nothing wrong with having your crude national stereotypes challenged ...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Scottish people love being told what they think by the English.

Plenty of small countries survive without England, indeed I can’t think of a single country in what used to be Empire desperate to rejoin.

If you think Boris isn’t a factor then you’ve not been paying attention. There’s little united about a kingdom where England (and her voters) get the party they want in power (and as a result policy outcomes) far more than voters in Scotland.

Of course, it’s because English voters know better. :confused:

---------- Post added at 15:24 ---------- Previous post was at 15:20 ----------

Well Scotland were denied the opportunity to pursue a ‘zero covid’ strategy by frothing at the mouth unionists adamant the border must stay open, even though other countries (such as Australia) closed borders between states.

It’s not unreasonable for some to conclude we are unfortunately the siamese twin of incompetent policy makers, regardless of whether public health is devolved or not.

The Scottish position is they are delivering the vaccine to care homes which it stands to reason is slower. The real question is how quickly each gets to the end of the JCVI lists. Of course independence supporters are extremely unlikely to read headlines from unionist papers anyway.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Nice try, but the idea that Nicola “I’ll take no lessons”* Sturgeon didn’t close the border because of anyone other than herself is silly. Where issues are devolved, the buck stops at Bute House. The reality is she has agreed all along with the strategy of keeping stuff open where possible. She has differentiated herself just enough to be able to claim she has a distinct view but the reality is, if she had wanted to completely close Scotland to the outside world, she had the power to do so.

Nursing homes were last week’s excuse incidentally - this week, Sunday’s appalling vaccination rate is being blamed on “reporting lag”. Do try to keep up. ;)

*Head cocked slightly to the right and headbutting each syllable

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

And that is a Scot telling another Scot, he's talking bollocks I presume?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

He's engaging constructively we just disagree.

---------- Post added at 15:54 ---------- Previous post was at 15:51 ----------

I don't pay attention to the minute detail because as I say it's generally a unionist press ruse and a clear tactic for the run up to the election

Publish exorbitant amounts of data every day, do it and we will criticise it as commercially sensitive. Thankfully most see through it and long term delivery is more important than whether you have out more doses on a Sunday than a Monday.

I think Scotland closing the border with England would cause a significant amount of civil unrest or disobedience from the unionists. Even last month as both Scotland and England had "stay at home" orders for people to stay near home or within their local authority areas it remained a talking point for one side of the fence that the border should stay open.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I like the’ head butting’ bit! :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

AKA "A Glasgow Kiss"...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ds-decade-ago/

It's mostly behind a paywall*, but you can see enough to see that support for Welsh Independence is growing as you said last month.

*Apparently, the Telegraph doesn't check email addresses, so you can put any old junk address in there such as xyz@hotmail.com and it'll let you in. The only trouble is when someone else has used the same junk email address

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The same argument also applies to them. How would they afford independence? Where is their financial plan?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yawn.

How does England finance anything? Fiscal deficit, over a trillion of debt, recession...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

What business is it of yours, the issue and union may well be saved if English people keep out of it, actually cancel that, lecture them till your boots are filled

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I've offered to pay for Old Boy to campaign for the cause of British nationalism in the Scottish Parliament elections.

He has thus far declined my kind offer, sadly.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Debt and deficits have to be somewhat proportional to your GDP otherwise you'll struggle to borrow the money. Lenders want confidence you can pay it back.

Welsh GDP per Capita is lower than that of the U.K by quite a bit. The level of debt it could raise and thus spending it could make will would be lower per head than it is now.

And that's actually worse than it seems because per person Wales has more spent on it than the U.K average: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...20UK%20average).

So losing 10% per head spending even if they were to match U.K's GDP of which they're quite a way behind.

I.E Even if Wales could match U.K' proportional level of deficit spending (and the U.K can finance debt very cheaply) there would be a significant shortfall in the level of spending per person in Wales.

So it's a valid question to ask what their economic plan is.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

A legitimate question for the voters of Wales, yes. However if the voters of Wales voted for ideological reasons - 'taking back control' over economic ones then that is absolutely their perogative to do so.

Fundamentally, the UK makes economic decisions that (by it's own calculations) leave very few of the nations and regions as economic contributors. Wales, and other parts lagging behind on GDP per capita, will never make up the difference in the current constitutional settlement because there's no incentive for London to do so.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's also our prerogative to ask rather than handwave it away. If Welsh Nationists want to 'take back control' at a significant economic cost then they should be honest about that state what will be cut or how they'll make up that huge spending disparity.

Both the Scottish and Welsh economy would adjust and make different economic decisions to reflect their newly independent nations but that will take time and it's not certain they'll reach the same levels of wealth. Some small nations manage to do it better than others.

Wales is a country of 3 million people. How would it adjust its economy to Independence? Is Wales going to turn Cardiff into a Singapore? Maybe the European Silicon Valley? And if so how is it going to do that whilst competiting against London & Dublin?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You are assuming that "wealth" is the only worthwhile measure of success. High GDP (and GDP per capita) counts for little for your citizens have a high cost of living and don't personally see the benefit of it.

Nobody wants necessarily to be Singapore or Silicon Valley. By framing the debate in these terms it narrows the scope of debate, essentially rigging it in favour of the union by emphasising economic uncertainty.

The role (and purpose) of the state are equally as important. What (and where) money is spent can be a significant difference between employing local people, in local jobs, paying taxes and profits being siphoned off into tax havens and private consultancies owned by friends of the leadership.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Wealth is a pretty key measure of success as it can directly impact people's lives and their cost of living. A low GDP means fewer, less well-paying, jobs. It limits the money the Government has at their disposal to improve the cost of living with what they subsidise, the Welsh NHS for example will be an expensive budget item for the newly independent Wales. As will their pension bill.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Probably a good place to start though.

You think that wont happen in an independent Wales or Scotland for that matter. Greed is not just an English trait it is a human trait and in any society there will be those more equal than others.

I remember at the last Indy Ref, that knob from Deacon Blue on Question Time pleading the case for a more "fairer" Scotland, like independence would deliver some kind of socialist utopia, bollocks, pull the other one it plays Flower of Scotland.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's not the only measure of success though. Well paying jobs in areas with high GDP equates to a higher cost of living. Steps like more affordable housing could change the lived experience of citizens despite lower GDP.

The NHS and pensions are expensive budget items for the UK. Unless England are funding this through sheer generosity these will be somewhat proportionate to the Welsh population in terms of resourcing and costs.

The idea that small countries cannot be successful is completely flawed. However they need the economic powers to stimulate investment. "Lower paid" jobs at outset can make these attractive opportunities for international companies looking for well educated, English language workforces at a fraction of the cost you could get in the South East of England.

With more service sector/office work moving online with remote working it's inevitably going to change the dynamics and gives the potential to attract investment and corporate tax receipts. Wales will never be able to do this while the game is rigged in favour of the UK.

---------- Post added at 09:20 ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 ----------

It's certainly possible, but it's equally certain the current situation won't improve it.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Decades of left wing carping about benefits being too low and hospital waiting times being too long have left many people assuming they’re not seeing the benefits of living in a wealthy nation, when the fact is there’s no way either Scotland or Wales could maintain the level of public spending they presently have within the UK.

You complain that focusing on GDP is ‘rigging’ the debate when the truth you can’t bring yourself to admit is that what it’s actually doing is ‘winning’ the debate. State benefits cost money. Infrastructure like the new Forth road bridge costs the same to build in a country of 5 million as in a country of 60 million.

Nationalistic pride is cheap. It’s an indulgence when you need comfort at a time of crisis or you hate the party that’s been running the country for years. Actually putting it into practice has a tangible cost. I’m not sure any nationalist in either Wales or Scotland has yet come to grips with the reality of erecting international frontiers on this island. Are Scottish businesses really going to be happy to fill in those 73 page export documents just to get their goods south of Gretna? Are Welsh businesses going to give up on the border towns close to England that are virtually impossible to get to without using roads that cross the border multiple times?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Would that be backed by an English loan.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You're right benefits do cost money - £22 billion a year on housing benefit that does little to resolve the problem instead props up a buy to let housing market.

Scotland and Wales would have to make different choices on public expenditure yes, but where we differ is your assumption they couldn't make better choices more representative of their needs and populations.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Sometimes, you just have to save people from themselves.

---------- Post added at 10:28 ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 ----------

However you want to look at this, we are financing Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That’s my point.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

'We would make different choices' is just the standard cop-out answer. There are oodles of examples of countries of similar size and resource as Scotland or Wales where a more specific starting point could be made by way of comparison (though various other things like social attitudes and population health must be accounted for). I'd be interested to hear your views on which different choices, at work in other places, would work for Scotland.

I propose not indulging the Welsh angle any further in this thread incidentally - it's beyond silly.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Very different choices, jfman. All those Lefties in both Scotland and Wales won’t like it one bit if they were to realise that their public services had to be grossly curtailed to fund independence.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No independent analysis supports that as independent countries they couldn't be better off. Plus England would in your theory save money. Win win.

---------- Post added at 10:40 ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 ----------

Speculative at best

---------- Post added at 10:44 ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 ----------

We would make different choices is hardly a cop out answer. It's the very essence of how, and where, countries promote investment. Do we spend hundreds of millions on Japanese trains or do we spend more to build them here, recognising the consequent economic value of those jobs in their communities bringing subsequent value to their communities?

Do we build high speed train networks or high speed broadband networks?

These are at the very core of economic development.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

There are of course locations within the UK where the heavy engineering and technology skills exist as a basis for a domestic rolling stock industry. They are however all in England, where hard economics dictates they would all remain because most of what any such facility produces would always be used in England. Much the same could be said of any other example of manufacturing you could name. Within the UK of course it doesn't really matter whether the rail engineering hub is in Darlington or Dundee. It would provide tax receipts to the UK government and machinery to the whole rail network, to the benefit of all. However when you start talking about these things while wilfully neglecting the fact that there would be a major international competitor to the south, you're really not making a very convincing point.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

A major international competitor that sees such great returns on investment and every pound of public expenditure that it can, allegedly, make billions in transfers to the other nations and regions shouldn't be too difficult to emulate.

The purpose of these transfers, other than propping up a neurotic and fragile English nationalism, is to prevent competition and keep those nations in check.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I would be interested to read any independent analysis that claims either Scotland or Wales would be as well off after independence. Northern Ireland is a different proposition as the most likely independence result would see them join with the Republic of Ireland.

Do you have any links, jfman?

---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------

You know that’s not true. Look what happens when any government tries to cut benefits or any other public services. The Left shout the loudest, of course.

---------- Post added at 11:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 ----------

Do we provide a furlough scheme or just let those impacted by the pandemic claim universal credit? That kind of thing, eh?

Scotland on its own would never have been able to fund a furlough scheme as the UK has done, and you know it.

You picked the wrong example, and it wasn’t even a good one. The UK is building a high speed rail line AND high speed broadband.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

More speculation Old Boy. Your English nationalism is oozing out of you here.

Small countries had furlough schemes. Small countries have trains. Small countries have broadband.

No high speed rail in Scotland, and broadband is being supported by the Scottish Government ahead of Boris and his 2025/2033 commitment.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Assigning the neurotic and fragile nationalism to the English is a novel tactic, Ill grant you that.

Historically, Wales' incorporation into England was down to medieval feudalism, pure and simple. Were it not for geography facilitating the preservation of language and culture, there would probably be no nationalistic sense of Welshness today that could be said to be any stronger than the distinct regional sense of identity that exists in various parts of England - all of which were themselves feudally incorporated into a unitary state from pre-existing petty Kingdoms. Much the same is of course true within Scotland, as the Picts knew to their cost. Come to think of it, the Scots were much more effective at wiping out Brythonic culture in the land between the Antonine and Hadrian's walls than the English were in Wales.

The union between England and Scotland was the favourite idea of the Stuart monarchy, pretty much from the very day James VI went south, was crowned James I of England, and never went back to Scotland again. The logic of unitary control of this one island and its resources, and people whose entangled history means they have for 2,000 years had far more in common than not, predated even the Stuarts.

It was fragile, neurotic Scottish nationalism, and the assumption that an independent, foreign England would somehow favour Scotland above its other alliances, that led Scotland to economic ruin at Darien. Ironically that then forced Scots to confront the logic of union (the deal on the table from England being unite with us and we pay off your debts). The deal on the table wasn't half bad, for either party. It gave the English political influence over a bankrupt, chaotic northern neighbour. It gave the Scots political influence over a wealthy, powerful neighbour which from henceforth was compelled to consider Scotland as home territory rather than a foreign competitor. Scots gained immediate access to what were now British colonial possessions.

For centuries now, the whole territory has been governed as a unitary state, with its economy managed likewise as a single unit. Nonetheless, Scotland and England exist in parliamentary union, not as an amalgam, and Scotland's distinct legal identity is assured. For this reason, central government spending is identifiable as 'transfers' in Scotland in a way that it isn't when spending occurs in, say, Yorkshire. It is absurd that spending that is identified in this way because Scotland's identity is being consciously respected and assured, is somehow a symbol of English colonialism - a position that has no basis in either history or in current affairs.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Your economics seems to be getting a little shaky, jfman.

By the way, you never did provide me with that link. Do you not have....any?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Not a fan/supporter of Scottish Independence, but don’t similar sized counties like Denmark, Croatia, New Zealand, Ireland, Finland, etc. manage economically?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

We're on the magic roundabout, we've done all this a dozen times. Yes, of course an independent Scotland could go it alone, but just because they could, does it mean they should.

If they do, they wont enjoy anything like the spending per head they do now. The numbers will be even worse than what I posted below in October.



https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=3509

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Then how do those other countries manage?

Isn’t it possible Scotland could emulate them?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I pray we never become Independent, SNP are a cult ready to destroy Scotland,

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Plenty of opportunity for them to be doing that already, but they're not.


How much of their economy relies on easy access to England? Ireland is to receive over 1bn Euros from the EU because of Brexit. where would Scotland or Wales get that sort of money?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Those other countries don't have another country subsidising their public spending.

As evidenced nobody is saying that Scotland couldn't go it alone, they could very easily they just won't be able to offer free prescriptions to everyone and free tuition etc etc.

They could still do that and continue to borrow at massive rate, they wouldn't enjoy the lower interest rates that the UK as a whole does.

Their currency would have to be pegged, most likely, to the Bank of England, so they couldn't really set their own fiscal policy, and likewise if they joined the Euro - which is far from certain.

They could do whatever they want......................it'll be fine.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You’re assuming Scotland would want to spend billions on Trident, a privatised track and trace system that doesn’t work, a high speed rail network in another country... etc.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So it's back to spears and the horse and cart then, hope you kept the drawings for the wheel;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

But that isn’t the argument, Hugh. The argument is that there is a huge hole in the budget with the absence of the Barnett formula and all the other reasons set out above, and the SNP appear to have no idea how to fill it.

No-one is doubting that the Scots could survive on their own, but they will be much poorer as a result. The Scottish electorate need to know that before they enter their crosses.

---------- Post added at 19:46 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

They probably wouldn’t, but they will have to pay a lot of extra dole money with all those people they’d throw out of work. And you seem to forget, Scotland will have to fund its own defence, albeit a non-nuclear defence.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The hatred some Scots have for England drives their support for the SNP imo.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No doubt about it, Max.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Wonder if someone will blunder along and say what about our oil conveniently ignoring that a lot of the gas fields are in what would be English territorial waters and that even in the boom years it only exceeded the Barnett formula payments a couple of times

I'd say most or a sizeable majority of Scots dislike England intensely it's the reason I'd be delighted to see them forge their own future on their own, imagine how nimble a country of that size will be

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Defence spending only accounts for around a quarter of their previous deficit. Still a big gap in the deficit to be filled.

Link

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No, I am expressly not assuming any such thing.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I don't think that's true tbh, I'm Scottish and proud to be so, I'm also British and just as proud to be, there's no doubt a lot of Scots do not like the English, but I wouldn't say it's the majority, and it's definitely not most.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Having lived here 17 years I’d say you’re wrong. There is definitely a headbangers wing of the SNP that thinks life is basically a football match and they will happily scream bigotry from the safety of the terraces (or on social media) but true, intense dislike is very difficult to hide for any length of time. Most people just get on with their lives without really letting it affect them.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

How much does Scotland currently spend on Trident?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

He’s referring to the per-capita allocation of defence spending that is nominally attributed to Scotland in the annual GERS figures (Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland). A favourite Nat trick is to vaguely assert Scotland would do things “differently” while not really being hot on the detail. In defence, what the Nats prefer to forget is that the UK’s defence spending is not excessive for a NATO member (2% of GDP is the target) and even if an independent Scotland preferred to adopt a neutral stance similar to Ireland (not sustainable in my view, given Scotland’s oil assets, its strategic position at the entrance to the North Sea, and Russia’s penchant for probing both the air defence zone and the limit of territorial waters) then Ireland’s defence spending is actually not vastly smaller as a proportion of its GDP.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Interesting that it has risen to much in recent years then.

What has made the English so loathsome (to some) in that time?

I don't think that it's really any more accurate a statement to say this than xenophobia and racism drive English policies on freedom of movement.

There's racists, bigots and xenophobes in any society but no real evidence of any more in Scotland than the rest of the UK.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It’s always been there. If she was still alive, I’d introduce you to my mother-in-law. Hatred for the English was in her bones. On the few occasions she invited us for dinner, I would always swap my plate for my wife’s before digging in. Just in case...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Just because xenophobia and bigotry is in your family history doesn't mean you can tar everyone else with the same brush.

Maybe she was an excellent judge of character.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Perhaps it was specific rather than general? ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm sure it was only in a specific and limited way. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Boris's second adviser on keeping the UK intact quits in as many weeks!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56128879

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Such a shame you have to resort to a personal attack rather than debate the obvious issue that the Scots dislike the English.

To answer the proposition you introduced, no, my mother in law despised the English and made no bones about it.

However many times I tried to endear myself to her, nothing really worked. I don’t think we will ever gain the friendship of the Scots. But for their own sakes, I hope they will at least accept we are better united than as competitors.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Quite!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Seriously ... stop embarrassing yourselves. Even if there’s eventually a referendum, and even if the Scottish electorate votes to leave the UK, that doesn’t make every leave voter an enemy, or a “non-friend”. I know plenty of people who voted Yes in 2014. A good number of them are English. For most yessers, it’s about their belief that Scotland’s economy and society are sufficiently distinct from England that they ought to be managed separately. I don’t have to agree with them to respect that as a reasonable constitutional position.

It isn’t all about you, and you sitting here pontificating like this just sounds a bit ridiculous and egotistical.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If Scotland votes to leave the UK, that is the end for Scotland.

The rest of the UK will be better off. So should we care?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Evidently you do. :confused:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Old Boy's another one disinterested in a topic that he posts a lot on. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It was a joke... :dozey:

What’s this ‘we’ ordure?

Lots of Scots like lots of English, what people don’t like is the lazy stereotyping of entire nations, and people who insist their unfortunately personal experience is actuality for everyone.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You should have learned not to try jokes on here Hugh.
They're not welcome or understood. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yet OB as, perhaps inadvertently, one of the most economically right wing members of the forum knows the answer to all of Scotland's problems. Lower taxes to induce capital flight from neighbouring countries.

Think Corbyn winning in reverse. Piece of cake.

He can't successfully reconcile any view on Scottish independence with his own, shall we say lax, economic views.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

My nieces girlfriend was a young lady from Glasgow, after a year she got a job at Thomas Cook and was based near our town, she temporarily moved in to my sisters until she got the deposit to rent a room.


I got on with her as she was a Queen fan, Several times her mum would stay (this was before she got her own room.)


We often spoke about Scottish independence and both didn't want it.


Sadly they spilt and she moved on and lives in Kent.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Whaaaaa, assuming one’s own personal experiences are actually universal? Surely OB would never ever do such a thing. :spin:

Seriously though, for someone to think they understand an entire nation based on a dysfunctional relationship within their own family is pretty extreme.

Two of my grandparents-in-law were raving separatists but we used to be able to get past it (if the subject ever came up I’d tell them it’s England’s oil, and they’d just get preoccupied with maritime boundaries until the conversation moved on).

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The joke was about his M-i-L not detesting the English in general, but only a specific English person... :)

This sounds pretty much stereotyping the entire Scots nation...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Fundamentally, I take Old Boy's input as completely insincere.

One only has to look at every single post where he's set up his signature to inform us using the user title

and until recently the post signature to tell us that on demand will replace linear television. A subject close to his heart until you ask him to define 'linear'.

Almost nobody believes he is sincerely engaging in either debate so when brings his British nationalism for a brief sojourn into the Scotland thread to tell us what's good for us forgive me if I'm sceptical he has Scotland's best interests at heart.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm not sure the EU flag is flying on Government buildings but it's nice to provoke outrage among the English by implying it.

It may on Europe day, but I think we will still play under that flag in the Ryder Cup in the absence of a flag for Europe the continent and not the EU.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

That's top trolling by the FM.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm not convinced she's capable of being that arch and knowing. Nationalists are obsessed with flags and other national emblems. It seems much more likely to me that she's tragically sincere.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm pretty sure this has been properly thought through. Will it win the SNP more votes by reminding voters that Scotland voted to remain in the EU and left due to votes taken outside Scotland? Probably yes but it certainly won't lose any. So decision taken.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You have to factor in the nationalist assumption that deep down, all right-thinking people actually agree with them. Scottish ‘independence’ is basically a virtuous position in and of itself, and supporting arguments are secondary. “Independence within Europe” has been SNP policy since the very early 90s (not at all coincidentally, from the same time that a significant chunk of the Tory party became arch Eurosceptic) despite it being intellectually incoherent when viewed alongside the arguments they offer against absolutely anything being decided in Westminster.

Nevertheless, for various complex historical, cultural, and frankly religious reasons Scotland has a sense of itself that is European in a way that England does not. I don’t think that sense mandates the strong attachment the SNP has to the EU, which is entirely political and unquestionable because to do so automatically aligns one with Tories. But there is a convenient, if intellectually lazy, link between Scotland’s historic sense of European-ness and its present political attachment to the EU.

All of which is to say that no, I don’t think any strategising has been done around the flag-flying. The SNP is all about identity politics and flag-waving gestures like this fit the bill admirably. It will have been very easy for Sturgeon to convince herself, without any real effort, that flying the EU flag would be a popular thing to do.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The SNP have done a really good job increasing their vote share for an organisation seemingly incapable of strategic thought.

Would have thought the titans of the Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative parties would do a better job against such a hapless bunch.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm pretty sure that nothing I've written above says the SNP is incapable of strategic thought.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Deliberately or not, you seem to be completely misinterpreting pretty well every single post of mine that you comment on.

As for ‘linear TV’, give us a break. That is nothing whatsoever to do with this thread, and your ‘point’ has been answered on countless occasions. Time to grow up, you are not in primary school any more.

As for Scotland, I don’t really care overmuch myself if they vote for separation. The advantages will be for the rest of us. But I do genuinely feel sorry for those Scottish people who are taken in by the rhetoric of the SNP. In my view, the opposition parties need to highlight the economic madness of separation. If they still vote in line with the SNP having been warned, they will be beyond help.

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:14 ----------

On that, we agree.