Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

RE : (#3440) Simon Watkin e-mails posted by Portly_Giraffe

I thought that I remembered a high profile case not so long ago ..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6301243.stm

They were both charged with RIPA offences.

(from the Reg story at the time - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08...e_tap_charges/ )

So It would seem that RIPA can and has been used other than "in relation to the police or other State investigatory bodies." I'm sure that if I were found to be intercepting the communications of an ex-girlfriend for example RIPA offences would be the first option for the Police.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So have many, many people. However, in the interest of balance, it does no good to shout down anyone who disagrees or offers criticism. Risking the decline of this thread into a shouting match via rabid, reactionary replies and insults is not the way. It's counterproductive and a distraction. If anyone doesn't like an opposing view, comment on it, but offer a considered rebuttal. Let the other side sling the mud. It is they who look stupid later.

Note: although I've quoted OF1975 above, this isn't aimed at that person. It's just a general comment as I can sense where this is heading.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dav, generally speaking I would agree with you but I don't like the tone that the jackal took. That "crying wolf" comment was very inflammatory and objectionable in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 ----------

The jackal. There is a very big difference between a body like the NSA doing something like this and a private company doing this just to push advertising on us.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anyone noticed any new stories about last night's meeting?

I really cannot wait to see the UNEDITED version!

As I have said before, ALEXANDER for PM!!! :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So are you saying that you'd prefer to have an agency sniff your packets in detail whereas you'd be outraged by Phorm merely harvesting a few cookies here and there ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a thought and I think it has been mentioned before. As we are quite likely to have many more new visitors to this forum due to more coverage, would it not be better to have the the Downing street link http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/ showing instead of the PetitionOnLine one. New people will get the impression that only 250 people have signed as apposed to over 11,000 !!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Any actual evidence to back that up? Where is it publicly known? Which encryption algorithms are you talking about?

---------- Post added at 12:03 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

Ah - I was right. You really don't understand what the technology does. Can I suggest you go have a read of Richard Clayton's analysis of the Phorm system here: http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...ebwise-system/, then come back when you've got a better understanding?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You know how to use google right ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know how to use Google to find a bunch of paranoid lunatics raving about the NSA being able to read their thoughts with lasers: I thought you might actually have something concrete to back up what you were saying. Apparently not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Do you have any real references for this.... or have you been reading too much Dan Brown?

While the keys CAN be broken the amount of computing power and time is still
WAY beyond what would be required to read ALL encryped web traffic.

This debate is about OUR data being unconditionally intercepted and read for pure greed - not national security


Jesus EVERYBODY types faster than me

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've had a very quick flick through that document and it outlines layer-7 sniffing and replacement of http traffic. So errrmm how does that differ from my understanding of it ?

It is still imho harmless.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Any NSA spying on our browsing data would be illegal in this country (BTW, do you have any documentary evidence of that?)
But Phorm claim that their system will be completely legal.

If you (really) want further information about the arguments against Phorm, I'd suggest you have a read of BadPhorm.
However, if you're simply a troll aiming to stir up a fight here, I'll expect you to carry on baiting...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

True

I agree with you about harvesting visitor metrics for greed but there are those on this thread seem to not be clear about why exactly they are opposing phorm.

Again you point to 'DATA' being intercepted. Is it really data or just session/vistor information which could take the form of web metrics or even logon cookies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I didn't say that. I would have an issue with this whoever did it if it was done carte blanche without an appropriate court order. That said, I do think there is at least an arguable case for doing this kind of thing more widely for National Security/counter-terrorism purposes or for the purposes of combatting child pornography etc. I would still be deeply uncomfortable about it but on the balance probably wouldn't object too strongly.

Thats a whole different kettle of fish to what Phorm are planning to do. They are doing this purely to target adverts at us and again I think you are being deliberatively provocative stating that Phorm are "merely harvesting a few cookies here and there".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

how are they supposed to serve up 'relevant' ads without any relevant DATA?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Seriously I'm just trying to weed out the specifics of why you lot are so anti-phorm and imo it's down to different opinions with the two clans being seperated by

[1] Those who dislike the idea of ISPs profiting off their back.

[2] Those who think this tracks everything they do.

Personally clan[1] know what they are talking about and I'm all for their cause. Those in group [2] need some education on the subject.

ps No I don't troll however most my posts appear to give that impression. I've got to live with it and so do the people around me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quick on channel 4 news now!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap: :clap:


Except me, it seems... :LOL:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@ The Jackal

Take a 'quick flick' through this document...

http://www.freshpatents.com/Targeted...pe=description

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No, it is the content of all your unencrypted web traffic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The cookie along side session information will give them all the data they will ever need but more exact targeting would be to profile users or cookies with the plain text content of the page being viewed

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Jackal, have you read the patent application? Have you read the statements made by phorm to the New York times? Issue 2 may not be applicable right now but statements made by phorm and also the details contained in the patent very clearly lay out the possibility that this is the thin edge of the wedge. There is absolutely nothing so far to stop Phorm with regard to function creep. It would be very easy for Phorm to change the software and start snooping on traffic other than that on port 80.

How about you go read up more on Phorm, read the entire 10 page Richard Clayton report (I have) and then come back and tell us why the issue of function creep isn't an issue we should be worried about? Lets remember this is a company that has a very checkered past and even up until recently has shown that it cannot be trusted. You did read about their attempts to edit their own wikipedia entry didn't you?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Again why can't you trust phorm to do this ? I'm sure all phorm will be looking for in the pages are keywords for tagging.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As many on here have pointed out, its not so much what they claim their system
does now, (thats bad enough) but the function creep that will inevitably occur
with seemingly little independant monitoring, once they get their slippers under the beds of our ISP's.

And, if you have to ask why we don't trust phorm, then you obviously haven't read half as much on this issue as you claim.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simply because on past history Phorm do not appear to be a very trustworthy company.

You are happy with it... that's fine. A lot of people here are not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's not the point. The point is that they intercepting our personal data. Remember what was said last week by Phorm: "We can actually see the whole Internet". What is at stake here is our privacy. And yes, I'm very much aware that Phorm isn't the only threat, it's just a very thin edge of a very large wedge.

I'm sorry 'Jackal' I do not see why I have to defend my beliefs to you. Who are you anyway? If you were a genuine member of the British public asking genuine questions and wanting to understand the issues then fair enough. But you're not are you?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just want to add my thanks to Alexander Hanff & Dr Richard Clayton for defending our right to privacy at the meeting yesterday and also to Simon Davies for getting Alexander up as a speaker especially when he didn't need to.

@The Jackal - your posts indicate that you are a little naive regarding this subject, and this is not a personal attack but constructive criticism. The potential implications and misuse of the equipment and system used by Phorm have only been touched on in this thread and is only likely to be. Suffice to say that Phorm's system can only make identity theft easier and that has devastating consequences

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

FINALLY I get a legible answer out of you. It wasn't too hard was it ? Thankyou.

The references to the patent, function creep and Clayton's report have proved invaluable.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There are 3600+ items to this thread and a lot of them cover your questions in great detail.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What reason have Phorm given anyone to trust them? They're an advertising company spun out of a malware maker, touting a most-likely illegal system in a very underhand way (until pulled up on it by a public outcry). They lie about their malware past, they've edited Wikipedia to get rid of unfavourable information, and they can't even be trusted to tell the simple truth about whether an advertising partner has dumped them or not. They have made claims that their system is endorsed by various bodies which have turned out to be incorrect (Privacy International, the Home Office) or irrelevant (Ernst & Young).

Why should anyone trust them?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

it is but is mostly in the hands of government and their minions MI5 et al

most of the time the info they gather never goes anywhere as they don't like sharing between themselves !

now while i might not like it i still trust them more than i will ever trust a for profit company

its our data and we should decide who gets it who makes money with it and how much we get out of it

plus unless we do get our own life time ip's promised by the new ip system touted it is the privacy of family individuals i feel even more concerned about as mentioned before there are children in lots of these house holds who may have things they do not want parents to see or find out about for various reasons

and on those lines i am even more worried now seeing some info being put up that https site may be able to be looked at through this as i have to deal with on occasions child protection issues as part of a charity i help run

i should not have to worry about my isp snooping on that and the idea that they ignore certain things doesn't put my mind at rest

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What was on Channel 4 news? Can you give us a summary?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Moving swiftly on to where we left off . . .

Online Ad System Phorm Problematic

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Channel 4 news did a piece on Phorm and the meeting last night. Was very good. At a guess lasted about 2 -3 minutes. Kent got some quotes in. Nothing we haven't heard before from him and his PR drones. Dr Richard Clayton got some points in including how he thought it was illegal.

Simon Davies was very impressive with what I saw. He argued that a solution could be found to this, that it must go ahead with an "informed opt-in" etc.

The report even mentioned the fact that BT carried out trials without asking consent over the last two years and explicitly mentioned that tens of thousands of people were involved. It stated that BT/Phorm were due to start a trial involving 10,000 people but that they were going to ask permission this time.

Sorry I cant remember everything that was said as I was agitated by a few things that the jackal has said so was half paying attention to the programme and part replying to him. I hope they will cover it in more detail this evening.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As someone else who was at the meeting I would like to say:

Thank you to Simon Davies for organising the meeting and for his introduction, which placed his involvement as 80/20T in context.

Thank you to Dr Richard Clayton for his presentation and also grace in handling the heckler.

Thank you to Alexander for his speech and putting the legal and moral issues before everyone there.

I'm glad there will be unedited soundtrack at least, as I was only able to get Simon, Richard, Alexander and Kent on video before I had to leave. Will be looking later to see if the audio quality is ok to post it online. Walking round London with a backpack and enough batteries to power the Six Million Dollar Man (but not, it seems, my camera) wasn't the nicest of experiences.

I want to review the video footage I have before posting anything in detail here but I will say this: Nothing I saw last night convinced me that Phorm is deserving of my trust. I place a lot of value on seeing people for myself, what they do say, what they don't say and their attitude.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mick, to clarify matters, I didn't tell the jackal to shut up because he has a differing opinion. I told him to shut up because I thought he was offering those opinions in a deliberately provocative way with provocative and dismissive language. However, by telling him to shut up I was doing no better. I apologise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't see two clans at all. I see lots of people with lots of valid concerns, some shared, some not. All keen to see Phorm stopped.

It sounds like you've got a good handle on [1]. That applies both to web users, and web site owners too.

Wrt [2] I think you might benefit from a glance at Phorms DPA registration, esp purpose 2 (concerning personal and financial data stored, sources & destinations, sales to traders in personal information, and the 'world wide' transfers). (see www.ico.gov.uk for details of Phorms registration).

You don't need a DPA registration if you don't store personal data.

So wrt [2] I think people do have a point in that Phorm have the technology, the means, and the express provision to do what is described. Even if they are not doing it right now. And I sincerely hope they never will.

There is also a national security concern too. Should this type of equipment ever have been installed in secret at the heart of the UK's ISP network, using closed source software supplied from Russia, allegedly using DNS servers in China, without at least advising people (like Police, Judges, Lawyers, Doctors, Military Personnel) so that they could take additional security measures if required?

And apparently it was installed without a contract of supply? (because Phorm publically denied having a contract with BT in 2007 after the trials had started).

If of course there was a contract to supply BT with Phorm in 2006/07, then there is also a question of insider trading. Because Phorm's CEO told the public there was no contract.

There is so much wrong with Phorm I could bore you for days. And I probably am. So I'll stop.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Phorm hires first chief privacy officer"

http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/37681/...y+officer.html

"Phorm Confirms its Commitment to User Privacy Through 'Chief Privacy Officer' Appointment"

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...o,353155.shtml

---------- Post added at 13:49 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------

Becky Hogge from Open Rights Group (ORG) seems to be busy in the news with regards to Phorm

http://www.drltd.com/Web-tracking-us...-18553704.aspx
http://www.equimedia.co.uk/Online-pr...2008-04-15.htm
http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=conWebDoc.18793

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
 

Looks like there is only one small mention (http://webwise.com/how-it-works/faq.html) In the answer to the question 'What's your connection to Russia and/or China?' Looks like VM are trying to do this on the quiet.

:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

" Phorm boss: Opt-in is a "red herring" "

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/188361/p...d-herring.html

Is he really that clueless???

Edit: Got to love Dr Richard Clayton's comment at the end :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

He's not that clueless, he's just trying to spin things so that your average punter doesn't realise that they have the right to say "No" to Phorm. Just because someone says something 100 or 1000 times doesn't make it right.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quite right. I've said it before about Phorm and it applies equally to Kent - he's arrogant.

@PhormUKPRteam - When in post #3441 you said
I trust this was in response to my accusations of Phorm's arrogance. Well you and your boss have done nothing to change this view. Maybe a quick look at a definition of arrogance;
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great, Ive already blocked EVERYTHING from DoubleClick and other stats.whatever.com, try getting MY browsing data, I WILL NOT make it easy for you PHORM!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jackal
for someone so opinionated you certainly appear very uninformed ,surely the fact that you are the minority here why not phorm a pro PHORM forum and then you and all those of the same opinion can fight for the right to be invaded ,snooped upon and have all you private details on public display and freely available to anyone.Once you have all your facts and followers then come back and post your point of view.
On another note why try and put a downer on a good day that many have put a great deal of personal time and effort to acheive.

Well done guys time for the small people to strike back ;);):clap::clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Phorm Warned by British Government Over Ad System, Must Use Opt-In" by Kelly O'Connell, Internet Business Law Services Editor

http://www.ibls.com/internet_law_new...stnews&id=2037

It is avoidable but Phorm don't want it to be because that would ruin their business model.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Guys,

I have been following this thread with great interest. As some of you know, Channel 4 did a bit on Phorm earlier today. I have made that into an AVI file if anybody is interested I could upload it to youtube when i get home from work. (cant get access to youtube from work :rolleyes:).

So if anybody thinks this is a good idea then lemmie know, and I will upload it. I will be home around 6pm.

Bob

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I, for 1 would love to see this, as I was even too late for the repeat on C4 +1

So from me, this has the thumbs up :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Count me in also I would love to see this.

On another note had a reply to my email to Simon watkin but he did request it to be kept personal this time.

The reply was along the lines that unless phorm is opt-in and informed then we might have a right to fight which I will any ISP that tries to phorm my clicks.

My days with VM are drawing to a close I hope you guys don't mind me staying around to help with the fight against phorm?

Alexandra great work honest you are a beacon of light in the murky waters that isd trying to drown our privacy always willing to help guide us..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its getting to the stage now that i'd probably miss any of the regular posters.
Don't you dare bugger off on us:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Somethings up someone has just dumped nearly £1 million worth of shares
http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...&timeframe=480

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like there are large numbers of Phorm shares trading :-

130k of shares in one trade at 1450 pence.

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=LON:PHRM

Don't know if it's people buying in or bailing out though!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Lets hope it's bailing and that they going to announce something major :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Blimey. Someone deciding to cut their losses?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually default opt-in or opt-out is a bit of a red-herring for me. That's really about whether Phorm will have few or many users, and says little about how it's done.

What is the issue for me is how easy is it to set things up so the traffic of all people at my house do not go through any kit that is either owned or provided by phorm, and that having done it once I don't have to keep re-doing it for any reason at all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excellent news. All we need to hear now is that Vm has dumped Phorm

---------- Post added at 16:43 ---------- Previous post was at 16:28 ----------

At the rate they are losing shares Kent will not be able to buy a trabant in Moscow never mind anything more fancy. :LOL:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It could be shorters but I sincerely hope its something in the offing that is scaring investors away. Trying to guess what would be pointless but time will tell. Lets hope channel 4 news do a longer piece this evening on it than they did at lunch time although the lunch time piece was excellent and actually on reflection I think quite fair.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding shares, it looks like there may have been 2 big sales very close together.


http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareTrades.asp...re=phorm_reg_s

This ties in with the volume traded indicated on the google finance site.

Anyone with better info?

I think nearly £2M got dumped.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can only see the one sell on other sites, could be a mistake.
(Press CONFIRM button ONCE. Oh Bugger :dozey:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I like this from the Guardian Newspaper

And that is my stance as well

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi,

looking at the total trade volume on the London Stock exchange site it is 141,728 for today see

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...%20B1WTNC4PHRM

This is consistent with two sells of approximately GBP 1 million.

My initial reaction was that it was a single sell that had been reported twice so it would be well worth checking tomorrow.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PhormUKPRteam have been looking in for a bit if anyone has any questions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Echelon I should imagine...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see Alexander is showing as being active. If so I just want to say a big thank you to you, Alexander, for all you have done and for attending the meeting last night to be "our voice." That also goes for all others from this forum that attended. Superb job. I cant wait to see if channel 4 news covers the story this evening too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hear hear! And if anyone does see and record a C4 news feature on it could they please upload it?

Started looking over the videos now. Maybe Phorm's PR team were looking to see if there was anything they could spin...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm don't need to break encryption, they can just use a man in the middle attack. It is much more effective. NSA need to hire Phorm obviously.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Uploading it as we speak... should have a link in a few mins.

EDIT...... Just thinking, I have a WMV version of it at just under 6mb, can I upload that to here? Is it too large?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You really need to stop insulting people, whether it is intended or not that is what you are doing, including me.

It doesn't matter what Phorm claim they are doing with the data, it is all about the very fact that they are using Deep Packet Inspection and redirects and fraud to do it. You may not be technically minded but several of us are and we understand -exactly- what the dangers are with Layer 7 tech. The technology can be used to literally do anything Phorm want with your data. They can insert ads for example, or they could sell information that you read a lot about cancer to insurance companies, they could sell information about your sexual preferences, the list is literally boundless. Phorm are completely unregulated.

Why are we concerned? Because we have fundamental human rights which protect us from exactly this type of scenario and they are being ignored. If you don't value what scant rights we still have, that's your problem; I however do value those rights and I will fight tooth and nail to protect them.

I would suggest that instead of "scanning" documents, you actually go and -read- the vast amount of information available.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd love to know what changes Mark Ramprakash has made to his batting technique - he's started this season off with another hundred.

Well, you did say "any questions" :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, yes I am back but I am very tired still hehe.

I can barely walk due to the shoes I was wearing last night, even my blisters have blisters, but hell it was worth it :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't look to PhormUKPRteam for the answer... they couldn't even get the weather forecast correct... :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Evening Alexander!

Just 1 question: how does it feel to be a public hero?

I for 1 cannot find words to express how much I am gratefull for what you have & are still doing!

Thanks so much :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a quick update, there is a strong possibility that I will be in the BBC "Click" studio next week regarding Phorm. I just received the invite this afternoon. Another trip to London...

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:28 ----------

I am not a hero, the people who see this technology for what it is and are trying to stop it are the heros. The gentleman who was almost moved to tears in his comments on Phorm at the meeting is a hero. My friend who was good enough to drive me there, hang around at the after meeting gathering and then drive me back is a hero. Simon Davies is a hero. Richard Clayton is a hero. I am just a man fighting for liberty.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sure I am not the only person on here who see's it like this too!

Well done to everyone involved, and with this effort, it will be a huge blow to Phorm and hopefully pretty soon legal action can be taken against Phorm & BT, as Dr. Clayton says, it IS illegal, and the sooner someone stops this dead the better it will be for everyone!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In my ongoing quest to get the Phorm tactics known to as many organisations as possible. I've found out why Liberty (who I emailed a few weeks ago) may not have to replied to me (and anyone else who may have contacted them)

This is from their website
I'm now waiting on replies from the British Bankers Association and my own bank, regarding Phorm and it's potential impact on the new banking code.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi guys,

here is the link for the channel 4 news article. I have a feeling I will be asked to remove it at some point as it is copyright of channel 4. Any ideas where else I can post it?

Channel 4 Phorm Article


Bob

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, firstly, thank you for all your hard work on this. :tu:

I agree with Dephormation Pete. You are going to have to shell out on expenses etc, going back and forwards to London.

Please let us help out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree. Money is far too tight this month but should be better next month and I would love to make a contribution as a thank you for your time spent on the issue.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will sort out a wishlist either later or tomorrow, I am very tired at the moment and intend to spend the evening relaxing with my family.

Thanks again for everyone's kind words. I have much more time to prepare for the "Click" program so hopefully it will be a very positive experience. I note news of this is making more headway in the US now, I hope I don't have to fly out there to give an interview lol I definitely could not afford that.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 19:14 ---------- Previous post was at 19:04 ----------

Just a quick note on what people have been saying regarding some communication from the EU.

Yes I am aware and the directives they discuss are what we have in the UK under Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003. RIPA is also relevant with regards to interception even though RIPA was passed before the EU directive.

Could the person who got the reply from the EU please forward it to me at core.ldf using the gmail service (hopefully that email address was sufficiently obfuscated to be missed by data mining bots). I would very much like to use the reply in my dissertation's conclusion.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not every one haz £500, to pledge to this. :mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Look mum I am on TV!!!

And scowling when on shot as well. Thanks for uploading BigBoab.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I appreciate That Alex is upset that some people have seemed disrespectful to Mr Davies and I hope I was not one of them as that was not my intention. but his ( SD) statements last night dismissing any talk of legality for the DPI system smacked to me of a whitewash and they should have arranged for legal counsel to be there as the legalities are the whole issue here.
However I thought,'benefit of the doubt'.
That was until I saw Mr Davies on the Channel 4 item today. It is clear from his comments given to 4 that he is clearly not an independent person working to produce just a PIA but was quite clear in his words that he is a supporter of the phorm system and is working to see that it is implemented for commercial gain. He did not appear in my view to be anything like the independent he keeps claiming to be.

So regardless of his work in the past with respect to 80/20 Thinking I personally shall be accepting that any further statements from them are to be treated as positive spin from a company with a vested interest in moving this technology into the mainstream.

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Fibod,

Where are ye then?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@OF1975 re: your 19:25 post on iii

I'm not registered to post on iii so I'll make the comment here.

Regarding Phorm in the US...

I'm not so sure it will be such an easy ride. In an earlier incarnation Kent's activities are quite well known by some of the techs...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178282,00.html
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/Sp...-Distribution/
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Spyware/index.php?p=820

Also, whilst the states may be more laid back about the privacy issue, legal eagles are far more prone to swoop if they think there's a buck or two to be had...

As an aside... I note that 'brettypoos' has calmed down a little now... wonder if that's the same poster as on http://www.lse.co.uk/SharePrice.asp?shareprice=PHRM

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.channel4.com/news/article...+phorm/2023952

http://www.ibls.com/internet_law_new...stnews&id=2037
INTERNET LAW - Phorm Warned by British Government Over Ad System, Must Use Opt-In

...
The Government admitted the Information Commissioner was "approached by a number of individuals and organisations for a view on Phorm's Webwise and Open Internet Exchange (OIX) products." In constructing their ad scheme, the company ran afoul not only of UK legislation but also European data protection laws that also insist that such invasive programs must use an enrollment plan. The ruling could cause huge problems for Phorm's business model because this is exactly the type of negative publicity any company dreads before releasing a new product. Phorm had already announced their annual losses had doubled in an April press release.

...
The real issue is privacy. The ICO said that Phorm must be quite careful to receive support from the Government, stating: "Phorm and the ISP will also have to comply with the PECR even where they do not process personal data. Under Regulation 6 of PECR a user must be informed when a cookie placed on their computer, given clear and comprehensive information about the purpose of the storage and given the ability to refuse it being placed on the system....Users will also be able to configure their internet browser to block all cookies from Phorm and therefore prevent any profiling without a cookie being loaded. How this operates in practice will not be apparent until the trials by the ISP get underway or the product is rolled out but it should be possible for Phorm to achieve compliance with Regulation 6."

well apart from the fact ,it is clear how they operate, that they do track you if you block the cookie and are trying to store and read these data cookies without consent.....

"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Craig, I really think we need to wait until we see the whole recording of last nights meeting before passing judgement. Also, the media are well known to 'selective quote'. I somehow doubt that the snipit of the interview CH4 showed is representative of SD's views.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm guessing the studious looking young gentleman in glasses and fetching curly hair ;)

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

Those comments, made to channel 4 in a separate interview will be all we get to see. Try as I might I can't see how his obvious support in that interview could have been taken out of the context of a larger conversation saying the opposite.
Channel 4 even made it clear before showing his piece that 80/20 was in the payroll of Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You may be right Kt88man. I just know from my chats with american friends that they just dont seem that interested in any of this even when I tell them all about it and warn them that it IS on its way over there. I think you may be right about the US techs and leagle eagles though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

About 2 minutes 50 into the clip

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander: Was that you at the front on the panel with 2 others?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm just working on converting the video I took and uploading it. Could be a while though (the laptop's a bit slow). I have all bar the first word or so of Simon's introduction, Kent's presentation, Richard's presentation, most of Richard's Q&A and Alexander's speech. The first words are missing purely because I had to change batteries between each presentation. And I had only one set of batteries for Alexander and Mark Burgess. Alexander won out.

My own thoughts will also be detailed in that posting. I'm off to make a large pot of tea - see you good folk in a bit.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also to those criticising Simon Davies I disagree. So far we have only seen a short snipit and should wait till we see the full footage. Lets give the man a fair chance. His past work in this arena surely earn him that?

To 80/20 thinking and Phorm, however, I strongly suggest that they try their damndest to get the full footage put up ASAP though. They lost a bit of goodwill by not finding a way to stream it live and if we are left waiting for more than another 24 hours for it then I think they are out of order.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Gotcha!!! Don't ya look studious!!

Boab

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have a few English friends like that as well... unsure if it's apathy, lack of knowledge, or, genuinely don't care...

"I'm not bothered, they'll only lose the data anyway" was the comment from one...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

First off, a big thanks to Alexander for all his work on this and for his great effort last night.
I have to totally agree with this. Like everyone else here I admire Mr Davies for the work he has done in the past, but I just cannot see how he can support what Phorm/Webwise plan to do with our data. It should be remembered that with his PI hat on he did once say of the Google/Doubleclick deal on the PI site here: http://www.privacyinternational.org/...D=x-347-560886

I'm not too sure about how to read Mr Davies' comments where Phorm/Webwise are concerned. Since he does post here, perhaps he would tell us the difference between the two systems as he sees it.

OB

btw. This is not flamebait, so don't flame me. As previously stated I am a great admirer of Mr Davies previous work; it's just that something just doesn't 'ring true' for me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As I made clear. I was speaking of my opinion based on the facts as they were presented to me in the channel 4 news item. The interview with Simon shown at the end did nothing to allay my fears that 80/20 thinking have a vested interest in the project and are working to ensure it is implemented.
You will see no more of that interview so there is nothing to wait for.

Simon himself was the one to bring up his hat juggling skills and all I am saying is that I have come to the conclusion that whilst he is wearing his 80/20 thinking cap I can't trust his comments to be other than self-serving.
I don't feel this is a criticism of him, I've said all along that I could never see him being allowed to be openly critical of the proposals being that he is employed to help move the implementation forward. If he worked for me I'd be sure he was towing my party line regardless of whatever that line might be. He's doing his job and I have no issue with that.

I do think that C4 were more critical than I could ever be. When someone adds a caveat to an item along the lines of. here is "XXX" and we must make it clear he is in the pay of "XXX" it is an old ploy that is meant to convey to the viewer " hey, listen to this guy but be fully aware of where he is coming from and who is paying his wages."

I'd sit down with Simon all day and discuss privacy issues. The man is a colossus in this field. At the risk of repeating myself I am simply dismissing 80/20 Thinking as anyone who can add anything to the debate but more positive spin on behalf of Phorm because that is the job they are employed to do.

I do hope Simon is not insulted by any of this, I really am saying the guy is just doing his job and well he should do once he has taken it on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've reread Alexanders post located at
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post3563.html

I've also reviewed the Ch4 news interview with SD.

I have to admit, I'm rather puzzled. The SD (and the attitudes of whom) Alexander describes in his post, does not appear to be in accord with that of the CH4 interview.

I wonder if Alexander could shed some light on this? Exactly whose side is SD on?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Am not as upset by Simon's stance. We all know his company is hired by Phorm so that is not a revelation and with the CV's of everone in 8020 I don't think it is fair to jump to a conlusion of them just being hired goons to do as they are told.
Yes Simon did seem happy for Phorm to go ahead, but (and I think it is a relevant but) he did state (even on that video clip) that he see a way in which Phorm could be deployed. That does not mean that he (or 8020) approved of Phorm going ahead in its current state; only that there was a method of having the system available and working within all of mentioned legal/ethical constraints.

If you look at 8020's main statement on their website, you'll read that they advertise themselves as being consultants to guide a company and make it aware of its responsibilities and to make it comply with what is ethical and legal in terms of privacy etc. In a way that's a brilliant thing, as they are working on the inside of Phorm to help shape it into a more acceptable product, and the company is getting paid in the process.

Personally, I can't really think of any more capable hands I would rather be at the wheel of steering Phorm into the seas of acceptability to the ISP's customers than Simon et al's (except maybe Alexanders ;)) - it's the best thing we have to having someone working on the inside.

Best case scenario is of course, the ISP's say "actually, forget all of this Phorm idea". But the more likely one is perhaps that Phrom will change to a more acceptable Opt-in (where non opt-ins dont touch any kit of Phorms period), and I think that stands better chances of happening with 8020 in their ear.

Obviously it is wrong for me, or anyone else to say your opinions or interpertations are wrong - I just felt the need to offer mine in contrast

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I accept your opinions too and understand fully how you can come to them.
I hope I made clear in my previous post that I'm not upset. I'm not even surprised. I'm just not going to accept the views of 80/20 without careful consideration just because the man in charge has a good track record. It is a commercial venture after all and I know more than enough about this having run my own companies for the last 20 years.