Cable Forum - Brexit (Old)

Page 36 of 591

« First

136

536

Last »

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Cable Forum (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/index.php)

- Current Affairs (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=20)

- - Brexit (Old) (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33706539)

papa smurf

16-07-2018 11:32

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35954684)

There can't be many chairs left now on the sinking ship..

There's a long way to go to match jezza's record ;) but it's not doing her any good ,i expect more to come .

ianch99

16-07-2018 12:31

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35954639)

The leave campaign was not and is not the government and has never been in a position to make good on any “campaign promises” ... as I’m sure you’re fully aware, so using phrases that imply the referendum was in any way similar to a general election is a tad disingenuous.

You seem to be missing the point that the side that campaigned to change the structural and economic future of the country for a generation or more had a duty to provide a detailed, workable plan on how they could deliver their goals.

Or are you saying that anyone can just pitch up, promise anything with no obligation to explain how, in the complex real world, their goal can be delivered?

---------- Post added at 12:31 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35954681)

I stand by my post - we fall on WTO terms.

Stand or fall, make your mind up :)

Hugh	16-07-2018 12:47

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35954692)

But they were only suggestions (by people who then became Government Ministers*...).

https://infacts.org/cut-keep-list-to...teer-promises/

Quote:

(1) More money for the NHS
(2) More money for farmers
(3) More money for scientists
(4) More money in your pocket
(5) And scrapping VAT on fuel bills and tampons
(6) No EU beneficiaries left worse-off
(7) And no short-term economic disruption
(8) We’ll get brand new trade deals all over the world
Click here to donate to Infacts
(9) There’ll be no damage to trade with the EU
(10) Or our cooperation with the EU
(11) Guaranteed in a treaty which we’ll sort out before 2020
(12) Which won’t have any obligation to follow EU law
(13) We’ll cut immigration
(14) With a new system in place by 2020
(15) That doesn’t favour EU citizens
(16) But which gives Irish citizens total free access
(17) And stronger border controls
(18) But no controls on the Northern Irish land border with the EU
(19) And the union with Scotland will be stronger than ever

*Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, George Eustice.

denphone

16-07-2018 13:49

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Not my words but the words of Bagehot (Adrian Wooldridge ) in his column in the Economist (paywall).

https://www.economist.com/britain/20...f-conservatism

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live

Quote:

There are lots of reasons why the party of government has become the party of anarchy ... But one thing above all others explains the current mess: the Conservative party, or large chunks of it, has forgotten the basic principles of conservatism. It has ceased to think like a conservative party, and it won’t recover its governing ability until it relearns that difficult art.

The first principle of conservatism is to be sceptical of pie-in-the-sky schemes. John Stuart Mill liked to mock Tories as “the stupid party”. Walter Bagehot replied that stupidity was a virtue rather than a vice — the Tories succeeded precisely because they preferred common sense to “remote ideas”, and pragmatic compromise to ideological principles. Butler summed up the Conservative approach to politics when he described politics as “the art of the possible”. Michael Oakeshott, a philosopher, said that to be conservative “is to prefer the familiar to the unknown, to prefer the tried to the untried, fact to mystery, the actual to the possible, the limited to the unbounded, the near to the distant, the sufficient to the superabundant, the convenient to the perfect, present laughter to Utopian bliss.”

The Brexit wing of the Conservative party is the party of pie in the sky. It has reversed every one of Oakeshott’s phrases. Britain has been a member of the European Union for 45 years and was the leading architect of the single market. But the Brexiteers have decided to dump half a century of history, bought at the cost of hard negotiation and compromise, in favour of airy talk of “sovereignty” and “control”. They sold Brexit to the British people without specifying what it might mean, making Utopian promises about having cake and eating it while making effortless trade deals hither and yon.

1andrew1

16-07-2018 14:17

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35954656)

That’s a false narrative. They can be delivered. We leave on WTO terms, don’t give them the 40 Billion quid, no deal is better than a bad deal, May’s deal is a bad deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35954707)

Good article. Touches upon the pragmatsim v ideology debate which I've previously touched upon. Conservative in name only.
They also used to be the party of sound financial standing. They seem to be keen on losing this USP too.

ianch99

16-07-2018 15:29

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35954711)

Mick, I'm afraid they have promised or suggested a whole list of things as Hugh has highlighted. The benefits or otherwise of WTO rules is a different matter.

---------- Post added at 14:17 ---------- Previous post was at 14:15 ----------

Good article. Touches upon the pragmatsim v ideology debate which I've previously touched upon. Conservative in name only.
They also used to be the party of sound financial standing. They seem to be keen on losing this USP too.

You are right, a very good description of the Tories of old.

There is a fascinating narrative developing: Mrs May is tried to sell a deal that is nothing to no-one. For the Remainers, it sells them less than they already had but at a real tangible cost to them (and others). For the Leavers, esp. those that believed the snake oil salesmen, it is not the Britain of the past they are seeking.

So, who will vote Tory now?

The Remainers? Some but a lot will say "What the hell, even Corbyn the clown is better than this rabble" I mean when Labour catch on that Corbyn is really a hard Brexiteer, along comes David Milliband to save the day. At least, that is what a lot of the moderate Labour supporters would hope for.

The Leavers? Less so now that Mrs May has sold them out as a large number of them would see it. If UKIP resurfaces then the more extreme Leavers would desert together with those that previously voted Tory because they were supposed to be a "safe pair of hands".

Add the demographic push from Leave to Remain and this leaves the Tories in a pickle and the UK with Clown Corbyn as P.M.

OLD BOY

16-07-2018 17:11

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35954684)

There can't be many chairs left now on the sinking ship..

Once again, Den, you have taken your eye off the ball. I mean, who wants to take a seat while their ship is sinking? ;)

denphone

16-07-2018 17:17

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35954734)

Once again, Den, you have taken your eye off the ball. I mean, who wants to take a seat while their ship is sinking? ;)

Better to be sat down OB when the ship is sinking as its better to go out with grace sitting down rather then standing up and getting in the way of everybody else..;)

Damien

16-07-2018 17:18

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Looks like Chequers deal is completely dead btw.

I cannot see the Government agreeing even a starting position to take to the EU, there is no majority for anything in Parliament.

denphone

16-07-2018 17:36

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Robert Peston summed it up aptly.

Quote:

@theresa_may having capitulated to the rebel Brexiters of the ERG, the rebel Remainers are now so incensed that they are planning to vote tomorrow to force her to sign up for customs union. May is out of Brexit frying pan and into Remainer fire. Ouch

OLD BOY

16-07-2018 17:51

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35954737)

Looks like Chequers deal is completely dead btw.

I cannot see the Government agreeing even a starting position to take to the EU, there is no majority for anything in Parliament.

I agree. It seems that the EU has got the back up of so many people, the Brexiteers who want a clean break are prepared to scupper any kind of deal at all with Brussels, which is a shame, given that we are looking to do trade deals with the rest of the world.

So it looks like we are heading towards WTO and no deal. I hope all those who have made Theresa May's life a misery with all their claptrap about 'soft Brexits', 'cliff edges' and the like are satisfied. Had they supported her against the hard liners instead of trying to avoid Brexit altogether in defiance of the referendum result, we would have had a proposal for the EU long ago.

However, this is not the end of the world, we can make this work. Unfortunately, without any kind of deal, there will be some casualties.

Damien

16-07-2018 18:03

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

No majority means she is caught between two sides neither of which can come to an agreement. We have no effective government. History will look upon this Parliament very badly.

denphone

16-07-2018 18:16

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Open warfare on the Tory benches tonight.

Quote:

Edward Leigh to Anna Soubry: "I worked for Margaret Thatcher, you ain't no Margaret Thatcher."
Nicky Morgan snaps back: "Is that the best you can do?"

papa smurf

16-07-2018 18:20

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35954734)

Once again, Den, you have taken your eye off the ball. I mean, who wants to take a seat while their ship is sinking? ;)

As a boat owner i can confirm the captain remains seated as the ship goes down .

OLD BOY

16-07-2018 18:54

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35954743)

No majority means she is caught between two sides neither of which can come to an agreement. We have no effective government. History will look upon this Parliament very badly.

Not really. A proposed deal the EU won't accept will not be accepted and will simply result in article 50 being invoked without a deal. Simple.

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:01.

Page 36 of 591

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page