Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Does this mean Johnson’s "oven-ready" Brexit deal has now been "de-frosted"?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:D Very good

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hugh is behind the times - this remark was all over twitter last night. :dozey:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Liz Truss to take over negotiations with the EU.
http://news.sky.com/story/foreign-se...ation-12500210

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

She was a remainer :rofl: iirc, don't like her anyway coz of that crappy book she put her name to that called British workers lazy

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

She was a Liberal Democrat at one time, too. Can't do worse than her predecessor, the bar has been set low for her.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

New report from the well-respected Nuffield Foundation on healthcare and Brexit. States the government has failed to resolve key post-Brexit issues affecting health and social care.
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/res...exit-in-the-uk

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

and she said this in 2016:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FG_lm6ZX...jpg&name=small

They will eat her alive ..

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Could be worse…. Could of been IDS….

(Depending On your viewpoint of course)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It just looks like Frosty's highly political approach may have been holding things up.

So if Truss doesn't fall down that particular rabbit hole, progress can be made. From the FT's interview with Sefovic on Friday:

https://www.ft.com/content/a5cf97bb-...8-eb29233a5fe8

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It’s quite a revealing interview that demonstrates the philosophical gulf between the EU and the UK. For the EU, regulation is basically a good thing. Stuff should be regulated unless there’s a reason not to. For the UK the assumption is the opposite. We regulate only where necessary. I’ve done just enough consultancy work in the past to be treated to the spectacle of civil servants tying themselves in knots trying to avoid “extraneous business regulation”, even accidentally, in sloppily-worded guidance (as my task at the time was to write guidance this was of primary concern for me).

So no, it is not cosmically difficult to put stickers on things but Sefcovic seems not to understand the fundamental difference between a supermarket choosing to discount items as one of its basic freedoms, and a food manufacturer being compelled by regulation to separate out quantities of its product so that the right pallets get stickers on them, or not, as the case may be. Compelling business to act in certain ways by making regulations is not the first instinct of the British civil service (although its fair to say when they do accept the case for regulation, or rather are instructed by politicians to do it, they tend to be guilty of gold-plating).

This issue is not a political drama, and that the EU thinks it is, simply illustrates the deep-seated incompatibility of the processes of government that pertain in the UK and in the founding members of the EU (and principally, France), upon which the Commission (the EU’s civil service) is modelled.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Understandable - why would businesses want to increase costs and red tape just to keep the ERG happy?
https://www.ft.com/content/e6ea46bf-...d-3b29be88f152

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As I’ve said innumerable times before, as long as you go on deliberately caricaturing Brexit, you’re doomed never to understand it.

Sure it’s cheaper to import another country’s rules wholesale. It is also utterly undemocratic. We are well able to understand the regulatory requirements of the British market and to set rules as necessary, and we are now able to do so.

If the price of our democracy is to be found only in health and safety checklists, so be it. I bet, in time, regulations made in the UK will be rather less onerous than those cooked up in Brussels.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The CE mark is now becoming global with Australia being the latest country to sign up. By all means have an optional low-regulation alternative for products sold in the UK if that's the direction the government decides to go. But putting British manufacturers through another process just puts them at a cost disadvantage to their competitors.

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------

I can't see how "regulation is basically a good thing" can be deduced from the article. That's a generic comment that's miles off what the article is discussing. :confused:

To me, it says that these things can be ironed out with trust. I guess now that's with Truss. ;)

I've argued before for Frost to go to break the deadlock and I'm encouraged that this has happened. Let's hope Truss can deliver so we can move forward.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Saw this on the web :)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FG9J4L-W...jpg&name=small

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As far I know we moved to the new scale at the same time so there shouldn't be two scales even if one chart has a British flag.

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/03...and-your-home/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's a bit strange. I've recently bought some electrical items and the EU and UK ratings were identical and followed the A-G ratings on the left. I think the UK one in that picture is from old stock whilst new stock would have the one on the left with EU branding and an identical one with UK branding.

From this site, we introduced the A-G labels in March this year.
https://energylabel.org.uk/for-consu...om-march-2021/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah …. I smell Photoshop …

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Being charitable, it could be a misreading of the regulations. Apparently there was a changeover period where the old scale and new scale would be shown

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/effici...ommercial.html

But that applied to the whole scheme, and wouldn't be different between the UK and the EU rating labels.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Over a screen that’s impressive ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not to say the manufacturer made a mistake or couldn't put their hands on the up-to-date UK version so used the old one as it was still valid.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1640084387

;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Seeing some worrying stuff appearing about our Australia deal, claims of it costing our farmers £100 million a year and food processing over £200 million a year although tbf that's already on it's knees anyway, yep nothing reeks more of sovereignty and taking back control than relying on foreigners for your food, still at least we can all have fish for tea, can't we

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Link?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's the government's own figures

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ry-web-version

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Here's a Farmer's perspective:

https://www.farmersguide.co.uk/anger...-is-finalised/

The sheep farmers seem particularly impacted:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Chill out snowflake, you'd love it if I was bitter, it'd explain everything neatly for you in a way you could comprehend

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:12 ----------

Expert's, what do they know

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

One reason why Truss needs to act promptly on Northern Ireland is that the US has retained sanctions against steel from the UK. The sanctions, originally imposed by Trump have been repealed against the EU but not the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59113868

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sorry to disappoint you but it turns out that Frost was actually articulating British government policy on Northern Ireland, and Liz Truss is doing the same. Typically, the Independent is so wrapped up in its preferred narrative that it can’t see the basic consistency in the policy not changing just because the team leader charged with implementing (i.e. not formulating) policy has changed. For them, it must be evidence of Truss sucking up to Brexiteers and positioning herself for a leadership challenge.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1980187.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think you meant to quote a different post as your comments don't seem to be in response to the one you quoted.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not at all - you want Truss to ‘act promptly’ and I infer from that you believe there’s at least a chance that she may approach things differently than David Frost did. The Independent reports that so far, she hasn’t, and in fact has repeated the UK government’s threat to invoke Art.16 in her first phone call with Sefcovic.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm explaining why Liz Truss will want to move promptly as the outstanding US sanctions against us are a tedious detail not often mentioned but she will be very aware of them. The rest of your guesswork is just that.

I don't expect her to say anything different as the UK's approach has only recently altered so why concede more? I do think changing the UK negotiator is a good idea as things were getting logjammed and something that Brexiters should be able to come on board with too.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Given the fact that the BBC is no longer "an impartial news-gathering service", their stark admittance that Brexit is a no win situation is damning:

Brexit: One year on, the economic impact is starting to show

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"The business owners I spoke to . . ."

Fair and unbiased, definitely :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting headline in the Express today raging about the red tape nightmare for exporters, whilst conveniently ignoring that what we've got is exactly what they campaigned for :spin:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sad to read I hope the last business survives.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

When Ant & Dec eventually retire, I'm putting your names forward :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well if that's the level of your material you're over qualified for the position :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yup, you're right, the violins will be out shortly.:rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm on my 4th box of tissues:bigcry:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The business that traded for something like 110 years before the existence of, and then outside of, the EU? That business?

I hope it survives as well. But if it’s struggling there’s clearly more to it than a couple of trite remoaner sound bites.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Whatever turns you on… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

[/COLOR]Which is why you should be wary about what you read in the media.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In case they highlight things you don’t want to find out about?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What, like this:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...as-with-norway

Today (21 December 2021) the UK, negotiating as an independent coastal State, has reached an agreement with Norway on fisheries access and quotas for 2022. These discussions mark the start of a new arrangement between the UK and Norway, in which both parties permit some access to each other’s waters and exchange a number of fish quotas in the North Sea and the Arctic.

The agreement on mutual access will allow respective fleets more flexibility to target the stocks in the best condition throughout the fishing year, supporting a more sustainable and economically viable fishing industry.

The UK fishing industry will gain access to 30,000 tonnes of whitefish stocks, such as cod, haddock and hake, in the North Sea, providing a welcome boost for 2022.

Norway will allocate the UK 6,550 tonnes of cod around Svalbard. In total, that means the UK can fish over 7,000 tonnes of cod in the arctic, estimated to be worth around £16 million. This is 1,500 tonnes more than in 2021.



And this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/environm...ade-bolstered/

A fisherman is on a quest to revive Lowestoft's historic herring fishery and his family's traditions as a Brexit deal has given boats enough quota to make a living for the first time in 50 years.

The UK-EU agreement signed earlier this year should allow the town’s herring fishery to thrive for the first time since the 1960s - but fishermen need help to sell the hundreds of tons of fish they are now allowed to catch.

Fishermen say abundant herring are now available in the North Sea, and the area needs investment from freezers, smokers, transport and buyers so they can make the industry a success again.

Martin Yorwarth, 49, wants to take advantage of the new larger quotas allowed for British boats in the Trade and Cooperation deal signed earlier this year, which will see the amount of herring UK boats are allowed to catch in the Southern North Sea and Eastern Channel rise by almost a third between 2020 and 2026.

Overfishing and red tape destroyed the once thriving East Anglian herring industry in the 1960s, and in the 1990s smaller boats were pushed out by larger trawlers.

Fishermen now see a chance to restore it, with a 600-ton quota allocated for the area this year.



The remainers love highlighting negative news stories about Brexit, but we can all do the same in arguing the opposite, and here are two examples of it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/15...c-fishing-deal


---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp...h-sea-herring/

All agreements have positive and negative views depending who you asked and in what way.

It shouldn't be Remain vs Leave anymore but are we all getting a positive outcome of where we are.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I was attempting to demonstrate that we were gradually resolving the initial problems on leaving the EU. We can agree that problems remain, and these will be dealt with and overcome with time. In the meanwhile, the fishermen can look forward to be able to get more fish than when we were in the EU by the end of the transition period we have agreed with the EU. Short term pain for long term gain.

The NI agreement should be sorted out soon as well.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The evidence is clear and all around: there never was going to be any "sunlit uplands" and there never will be. This grubby little project was sold on the basis promise of no downsides, only positives. Permanent 4% loss in GDP is just the start, the list is endless.

I suppose that if the outcome you have been hoping for, against all evidence, does not happen then all you have left is bitter denial or a redefinition of the reality we all saw. I think we are now at the "Well, I always said that the problems and pain would happen but trust me, it will pass and those sunlit uplands will arrive, honest, have faith" phase.

I think the most depressing part of this is that people who you would like you are rational and honest can still deny self-evident reality.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There are no ‘facts’ to support your view that Brexit will not reverse our fortunes. The future hasn’t happened yet, and you don’t appear to understand the word ‘opportunity’.

Will you still be screaming about GDP from the rooftops when that changes into a positive figure?

Yeah, sure you will… :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good post, well said...:clap::clap:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

'sunlit uplands' . . where was that phrase first used, and was it by the remain or leave camp?

I suspect it was the remain camp, referring to some kind of Utopian dream that quite obviously wouldn't happen, in order to be then thrown into future arguments that Brexit didn't/isn't working ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nope. It was Brexit supporting Andrea Leadsom in 2016 after the referendum.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...dership-speech

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'll take your word for it, typical Andrea Leadsom, ideas above station I guess :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

tbf, she wasn’t the only Leadership contender who was "economical with the actualite"…

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rules-VAT.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not sure what’s economical about any of that? As has been common throughout this discussion there’s a (possibly quite wilful) refusal to acknowledge the difference between a referendum campaign in which both sides present what they see as the risks and opportunities inherent in voting for or against their proposition, and an election in which politicians are elected on manifesto commitments to enact specific policies.

The Leave campaign observed that Brexit would enable greater freedom in VAT policy. That is a correct statement. It is a further benefit of Brexit that come the next election, if the sitting government has not used that freedom, it can reasonably be held accountable for it at the ballot box.

Boris et al have now have the power to lessen the impact of fuel bills by acting on VAT. Come the next election if they have not done so and you think they should have, you know what to do. :shrug:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There’s a huge difference between "could be" and (as was stated in "Britain's energy bills will be slashed by £2 billion a year") "will be" - the first is a possibility, the second is a promise (as stated in the Sun).

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/121870...s-back-brexit/

"Will be", not "can be"…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

On either side, I would add. Just for completeness, of course.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Link?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Sun … seriously?

You’re still missing the point though. Referendums are not elections. They are not fought on manifestos. They are fought on arguments about possibilities. I prefer to assume the British electorate is intelligent enough to understand this difference.

The argument that ministers *can* scrap VAT on fuel is not a lie. It’s absolutely correct. They can do that. Anyone who thought that was a good reason to vote Leave was not deceived.

*If* Boris and Gove made firm commitments to use those powers during the referendum campaign then, for starters, nobody can complain that they were not used between 2016 and 2020 as they weren’t in positions where they could make good on such a commitment. Boris has, however, now been both PM, and working with a manifesto he had influence over, since 2020 (plus a couple of weeks of 2019). If we get to the next election and they haven’t made good on their commitments then those are factors that voters may take into account.

There are in fact a whole lot of policy areas where minsters can no longer just blame Brussels. The next general election has the potential to be the most broad ranging debate on the running of Britain in a generation. That is a good thing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

When all this stuff was spouted about energy bills, Covid hadn't arrived and the gas shortages weren't in the frame.

HS2 was a very large project too, but circumstances after it's conception have drastically altered its current direction (no pun intended)

There was also that chap that said "Peace for our time" wasn't there?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Apparently there's going to be an inquiry into our trade deal with Australia now, things like hormone fed beef and general animal welfare being the chief concerns, weren't we promised our standards wouldn't drop and if anything would be higher

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If I had to vote for Brexit again tomorrow, I still would vote leave, as would many remainers.


What hasn't helps is Covid as this destroyed many best laid plans.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or covid has helped avoid proper scrutiny of what's been happening, got a feeling some people are going to be held accountable for the things they've said in the coming year

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You assume that everyone who voted did so based on politically ideology when the opposite is true. Most were promised a better future with no downside when all they have is a broken country run by crooks.

As time goes on and the fog of Covid clears, it will be these people, the ones who realise that they have been conned, that will be the ones that really suffer. The economic downside will manifest in reduced public services, lower quality food & environment standards, the list goes on.

The structural damage to the country in terms of societal divisions, generational betrayal, international reputation, empowering of latent racist & xenophobic views, etc. is significant and lasting.

A truely Pyrrhic victory.

Yet again, you ignore the reality of what is happening now and focus on the illusory sunlit uploads. If all you can point to (yet again) is "opportunity", then you really did take the blue pill.

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

I do not remember the Leave campaign clearly & publicly presenting the inherent risks on leaving the EU

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So we were not going to have turkey or pigs in blankets for xmas day as "all the EU workers have been kicked out".

Well, many decided to take up the offer to stay and carry on working.

And no shortages of turkey, pigs in blankets or anything else the remoaners said would happen.

No shortages of EU goods either.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why would they? That was the remain campaign’s job. Guess my sentence could have been clearer … each side articulates the benefits of its proposition and the risks of the opposition.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The test for EU imports is next year when we start checking them.

---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

It seems the quality of some of the turkeys this year left a bit to be desired.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/17146...co-sainsburys/

https://nypost.com/2021/12/26/britis...stmas-dinners/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I can’t wait to hear how this is something to do with Brexit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Exactly, talk about clinging at straws.:rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Are you sure that that a lack of workers has no impact on the quality of these turkeys?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Were there any shortages?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Daddy, why is this bothering you so much?

If you don’t want to eat Australian beef, don’t buy it. However, don’t begrudge poorer people the ability to buy food which is actually better for them than pizzas, burgers,etc.

---------- Post added at 15:32 ---------- Previous post was at 15:31 ----------

Covid has delayed implementation of manifesto pledges. Surely, anyone can see that.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh no you don’t.

You make a proposition, you provide evidence. You don’t make assertions then expect others to prove the negative.

So, please, prove to us so we’re sure that these rancid turkeys had something to do with Brexit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, I am not. We have only left the EU for a year and we have spent that time getting rollover deals and shoring up issues in problem areas such as the NI Protocol. Do you seriously expect there to have been big benefits achieved in 12 months? Because if you did, you have clearly never been involved in project management.

Let’s come back to this in five years, when things will look completely different. What is happening right now is a side show for those who lack vision.

---------- Post added at 15:42 ---------- Previous post was at 15:39 ----------

I agree with most of that, except that I wouldn’t write off the PM just yet.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

tbf, it wasn’t "Remainers" who said that, but representatives of the Traditional Farm-fresh Turkey Association (TFTA) & the British Meat Processors Association.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-menu-too.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We had the best turkey ever this year, courtesy of our local farm shop.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY

‘On either side, I would add. Just for completeness, of course.’

I think you must be resorting to desperation now, Andrew!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Our turkey was just as good as the last couple years, as it was, as usual, from our local farm shop.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Drop the personal attacks please.

I understand Brexit very well. There is no "average" Leave voter as such. Some voted for altruistic reasons, some voted uncaring of the damage it would cause because the hatred of the EU outweighed any cost, some voted the way that their favourite media outlet encouraged them to, some voted in a perverse xenophobic temper tantrum, etc.

What is clear, and will remain clear in spite of your personal attacks, is that most thought that there would be no real serious downside:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/0...endum-and-why/

Just so we are clear: long term 4% loss of GBP is not "a period of economic adjustment"

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Lord Ashcroft didn't consult me, and I'm going to guess he also didn't consult anyone I know.

Any old fool can show results from a poll of 'choice' participants :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Correct, whatever fits their agenda.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That works both ways.

Actually, as a remainer, you simply do not understand what the average Brexiteers wanted. You assume, and you assume wrong.

Most voted to control immigration, escape EU bureaucracy and regain our sovereignty. Our destiny lies in our ability to make our own laws, not to accept laws designed by a remote bureaucracy with no electoral mandate.

The difficulties we are having in the first year post Brexit are transitional, including your 4% loss of GDP. This will be recouped in bounds in future years.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Bless

---------- Post added at 17:10 ---------- Previous post was at 17:05 ----------

I do not assume anything. I am informed by the information I research. I would encourage this approach.

Please no more sunlit uplands rubbish. If you have evidence, share it otherwise cease the baseless propaganda.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

PMSL....:D:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I suspect "being so overcome by bitterness" can be read as an insult even if it was not intended to be so.

The 4% reduction in GDP is permanent, not a temporary matter and is on top of any reduction from Covid 19. We're choosing to erect non-tariff trade barriers with our large trading bloc in exchange for a little bit more sovereignty. These non-tariff barriers come at a cost.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The information you research appears to be from the perspective of remainers. You read what you want to read and reject opposing views.

As for sunlit uplands, you need to be patient. The transition from winter to summer is not instant.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Do you mean the Poll he quoted from Lord Ashcroft, the staunch Brexiteer?

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/14742/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I really do not care why you voted for Leave. You can justify it to yourself until the cows come home. It really does not matter one iota. You can call me this name or that name, again it really does not matter. If you get your kicks doing this, great good for you.

What I care about is the damage done to the country and the poisonous legacy it has gifted our children.

---------- Post added at 19:31 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

I oppose sunlit uplands hot air in the same way you rejected 'Project Fear". So, I await your submissions of the myriad Brexit benefits that surround us.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some people care enough about it, they keep telling us why we voted even though we've never been asked :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Warning, Brexit joke ahead! Those with a sensitive disposition, please look away now