Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It could go both ways. Andrew has made one proposal - often cited by neo-liberal and conservatives that lower taxation causes inward investment and greater tax receipts (the reverse of capital flight if you put taxes up).

Other countries - like the Nordic countries - have public expenditure closer to 50% of GDP, and routinely come at the top of any worldwide measure of satisfaction within society.

The mantra of cutting back to a shell of a state with private sector companies siphoning off billions a year in profits for public utilities is one we've been sold but not a unique way to structure a happier, wealthier society.

I'm sure these competing arguments would make for a healthy debate in an independent Scotland with the constitutional question behind it.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Ooh%! a Tax haven off the coast the EU! They don’t like that?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

EU is surrounded by tax havens.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If this forum is certain of anything it's that it doesn't care what the EU think. :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Correct, stuff the EU. :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They should do cable forum t-shirts that say 'stuff.EU' on the front as a branding. Alternative versions available for 'make election counting great again' and 'THE END (OF LINEAR) IS NIGH!'

Others available upon request.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Show a little respect to your future lords and masters as Scotland will probably be joining the EU after Indy Ref 2. :D

---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:55 ----------

:D:D:D
That's my Christmas shopping sorted!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Labour policy alert!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-55384938

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Well the Scotts do love a posh English bloke, should be interesting.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Why not give the Scots more chances to introduce successful policies such as this.
Link

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Scotland’s drug problem is so bad that Nicola Sturgeon actually sacked the minister in charge of the policy. It is almost unheard of for the SNP to own any sort of failure. Yet even now the nationalist sheep can be found all over social media explaining why the drug death statistics are unfair, untrue and some sort of unionist fudge to make Scotland look bad.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Good news for the SNP.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-tory-majority

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Wow, I wonder what the Tories will do to reverse this with a General Election obviously imminent......

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

As it's in the Scotland thread it's pertinent to the Holyrood elections currently scheduled for May.

57 of 59 seats bodes well for the constituency seats and would leave the SNP needing to pick up only a handful from the regional lists to get an overall majority.

The regional lists are designed to offset disproportionate success in the constituency seats however so it could still be challenging.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Why is a General Election 'obviously imminent' :confused:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Suspect it was sarcasm.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Former Scottish Conservative MSP Michelle Ballantyne has joined Nigel Farage's Reform UK (ex Brexit Party) and will head up Reform UK Scotland.
https://news.sky.com/story/michelle-...rm-uk-12185085

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They’re unlikely to amount to much in Scotland. UKIP/Brexit made a bit of a showing in the Euro elections here but they’re pretty much irrelevant to distinctly Scottish politics.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Farage what an ass this man is... Trumps no. 1 fan... o dear, o dear.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Is he still a fan I wonder ...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Love him or loathe him, Farage could see there was a growing percentage of the population unhappy with the EU and managed to give those people a 'figurehead' to follow.
I doubt there would have been any success in a referendum without someone (Farage) becoming the 'champion' of those people and uniting them in a cause.

I don't think it will work again though

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

He could see an opportunity to promote himself and grab some power, like Boris. Neither care a toss for the masses. Brexit was just a means to their personal ambitions. Boris succeeded, Nigel didn't, so he jumped on the Trump bandwagon...
Wouldn't put it past him to join Scexit if he thinks the tide has turned. Bad news for the Nats if he does. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Every time Sturgeon and Blackford come on TV I reach for the TV remote and press mute, as Blackford says nothing important, just about Scotland being taken out of the EU against it will.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I hope and pray Scotland never becomes independent , We cannot go it alone, The S N P cannot run the country without Westminster , We all need each other,

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Agree we"re better together but the same thing applied to the EU really.

Its a bit hypocritical of some that wanted us to leave the EU, to say Scotland can't leave the UK if they want.

Its up to you and no one else ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You'll be in the EU in two shakes of a lamb's tail. It worked out ok for Ireland didn't it?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They weren't part of the UK, and I think that I read somewhere that, it was Spain that would try and block it if Scotland tried to go it alone?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yes because it could trigger Catalonia to seek independence.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

That's what I was thinking about but couldn't remember where, thanks. :)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They were part of the UK. Until Irish independence, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

Spain has advised it wouldn't block Scotland's entry to the EU.
https://www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/...lomat-insists/

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

What I was meaning was that they were not part of the UK when the EU was formed.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Politicians say lots of things, and always tell the truth ... dont they ?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yes to the first point, no to the second.

But why is this relevant?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Perhaps Paul was inferring that Spain would indeed block Scotland application to join the EU, even after saying they wouldn’t. Should circumstances actually get to that point.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Do you really want to play at being that dim ? if so, refer to below

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I've provided a link quoting a diplomat not a politician. So yes, politicians do lie but that's irrelevant here.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Who is speaking on behalf of the Spamish Government, who are politicians.
Dont start trying to be a smartass, it wont end well.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's useful to refer to the source material here, make of it what you will.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So an 18 month old article quoting a nobody supposedly speaking on behalf of a country.



Nothing to see here....

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I know how much everyone loves polls on CF but one out this morning predicts the SNP to win 71 of 129 seats with independence supporting Greens getting 11.

The spirit of Ian Paisley can live on with a Yorkshire accent with Richard Leonard's Labour party being the biggest opposition party.

Better get those Salmond smears out quickly.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's interesting he's not said anything publicly yet about the rumours of him forming a rival independence party. It may be just tittle tattle or he may think it's in his strategic interests to wait till the last minute. If he does go for it it will royally screw up the polling predictions especially with the two-vote PR-ish system we have.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Very much so. Could have wildly varying consequences if they stand in every constituency or whether they stick to being a "list" party.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Accent TBC ... Leonard has walked. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55666234

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

And I was really looking forward to it. :)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

eeee bahh gumm I cannae believe it

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Entertainingly James Matthews at Sky has been sitting on the following gem since 2017:

https://news.sky.com/story/nicola-st...eaked-12192267

While embarrassing for the email exchanges to be made public by mistake they aren't particularly out of the ordinary. A seperate freedom of information request lodged in 2018 and published by the Scottish Government acknowledges the role of Special Advisors (and Ministers) in the clearance process prior to responding.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-18-01646-review/

That said the average reader/viewer would probably consider it overly complex I'm sure no journalist, ever, has sought to trip up a Minister by reading to them outputs from a freedom of information on television.

So while it reads juicy the reality is much more mundane.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Looks like the Scots are going to ignore Boris and have another vote anyway.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...droidApp_Other

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

This is one of my worst fears if the SNP ever have an election for Indy2 and win, I will cry my eyes out

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

This has always been a possibility. They’ve shied away from the advisory referendum idea in the past because there’s a very effective strategy for countering it, which is for the other Holyrood parties to refuse to engage with the campaign and to advise the public not to vote at all.

You then end up with a large yes vote on a small turnout, in which every non-voter can be claimed as a no voter. The referendum is delegitimised as a piece of political theatre - nationalists talking to themselves in an echo chamber.

Sturgeon has however now got little choice but to go down this route because the real heidbangers in her party are getting impatient. She is about to have gone a full parliamentary term as a nationalist first minister without delivering a referendum, let alone Scotland’s departure from the union. Going another term that way isn’t an option. She clearly wants to hold on to her job.

As a member of the electorate in Scotland I’m certainly not minded to legitimise the SNPs schemes by participating in them.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The Sunday Times today leads with a Union Jack-coloured spread today. Based on the results of a YouGuv survey, it claims we are now a "disunited kingdom" with a majority backing border polls in Scotland and Northern Ireland together with a growing call for a Welsh referendum.

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2...this%20one.png

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

At last a brexit dividend

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Just saw a well placed point said elsewhere....Scotland wants to leave UK vaccination program to join the EU vaccination disaster?

Ok then.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Scotland can't hold a referendum, negotiate independence and join the EU within the timeframe of Covid vaccination.

Whoever said it was plainly incorrect, seeking to misrepresent the situation. A frequent unionist pitfall.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The bit you said, that I have highlighted in bold was legally correct. The rest was separatist hyperbole.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Has the court of session ruled on that yet or is this another example of opinion presented as fact?

One man's uncomfortable truths are another man's seperatist hyperbole.

I've said before unionists struggle to make a compelling case for the union to people who are likely to vote independence and I think this is another glaring example.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

How the tables have turned - you're a damn hypocrite jfman. :rolleyes:

There are far more benefits to keep the union and I am not talking about England keeping Scotland.

Scotland would be out in the cold, with no currency, would need to apply to join the EU, Spain could scupper this for you. Your precious SNP is currently got a crisis of it's own that could see Nicola "Looks as though she wears a dress size too small" Sturgeon booted, for potentially lying re: Multiple Turkey necker, Alex Salmond.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I just wish the SNP and there independence at any cost rhetoric would just bugger off.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Agreed, once in a generation wasn't it....:rolleyes:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It took 4.5 years for the UK to leave the EU after the referendum. For Scotland to vote to leave the UK and to join the EU in less than a year requires the smoking of a particularly strong brand of cigarette. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yes and we all know why it took 4.5 years don't we? :rolleyes:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I don't see any hypocrisy here.

Again you are trotting out the same old, tired unionist lines. No currency, Spain would veto, all of these were part of Project Fear 2014 yet still independence climbs in polls.

Despite "all these benefits" you haven't yet named one in this thread. Not a single benefit of being in the UK.

It's not "my precious SNP" - I'm simply offering observations on Scottish politics. I've said before the serial incompetence of the unionist parties results in weak opposition and is bad for political discourse. I know on CF not many view opposing views as healthy but there was a time that was quite normal in politics.

As Labour lurch to a new leader - so many since the SNP took power I'd struggle to name them all. The Conservatives also have a new leader in Scotland I can't see either making inroads in May despite any scandal that could engulf the SNP.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

By the time they get round to it it will have been at least 10 years since the last vote. It could be argued that is a different generation; 10 years worth of voters that didn't get the chance last time.

Brexit will lead to the end of the UK sadly.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The Conservatives wouldn't back May's deal?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The SNP wanted independence before Brexit existed.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Before you get too relaxed with all this nonsense ...

The wise heads in the SNP haven’t actually changed their minds about any of this. They were in no doubt they needed a Section 30 Order for 2014 and they still think that. What has changed is that a number of positions in the party’s NEC now occupied by hardliners. Sturgeon wants to keep her job so pragmatism has forced her to order the pompous Mike Russell to write up the “strategy” we are now debating. Except it isn’t a strategy, it’s a plan B that only exists because Sturgeon can no longer afford to look like the nationalist leader who doesn’t want a referendum.

What’s worse is that thanks to Nippy being rather more to Scottish tastes than Boris when it comes to media management in a crisis, the SNP looks like it might actually have a working majority again this year, if not by itself then with the continuing assistance of those useful idiots who like to call themselves the Scottish Green Party; furthermore, Boris has gone further than any UK politician to date in spelling out that he means to stick by “once in a generation”, and has defined “generation” in truly Biblical terms (40 years). Sturgeon has little wriggle room left and her strategy of asking the true believers to wait until the right time is getting harder to sustain.

So really, those in the SNP who think winning a referendum is more important than simply holding one are beginning to lose the argument that it is better to wait until the polling is consistently high enough, consistently long enough, for victory to be more or less certain. The party ultras, who properly drank the kool-aid in 2014 and genuinely think Scotland is on the brink of being thoroughly wrecked by Toreeez, having its NHS sold off, Trident missiles farting plutonium all over the central belt and whatever, are starting to get the upper hand.

It’s also worth pointing out that the SNP, in proposing the UK government can do only one of three things in the face of its proposed Referendum Bill, has actually failed to list the fourth option: the one thing the UK government is most likely to do, and which the SNP desperately hopes it won’t do, which is to accept the Scottish Parliament is perfectly entitled to poll the Scottish electorate for its opinion on any issue it likes, but that this doesn’t afford the outcome the same status as the 2014 referendum which was enabled by Act of Parliament and underpinned by a document signed by the PM, FM and their deputies.

HMG may deny a section 30 order, choose not to challenge any subsequent referendum act in the courts, decline to engage with the ensuing campaign (except perhaps for taking the opportunity to point out to the electorate that this is a glorified exercise in opinion polling which they are not obliged to participate in) and then refuse to discuss the outcome with Scottish Ministers.

What then?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Brexit has furthered their cause, and now also made it an issue in NI. Even Wales are now starting to ask the question.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They did, but support in the polls has gone up. Similarly support for a border poll in NI.

England voted for the UK to take a huge leap against the will of Scotland and NI. And while yes, those are the rules of the game, not being seen to act in the interests of everyone naturally pushes self-determination

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's not my job to justify why I think Scotland should stay aligned with England, far too many to list - you want to part ways, tell me what benefits you get with leaving, because I see none, none whatsoever, so fess up or simply just shut up.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I suspect the UK Government will grant a further referendum if the SNP win the election clearly, or at least define clear terms under which a referendum could take place.

However, if there's an unofficial poll it will simply drag on further constitutional turmoil. The Scottish electorate will continue to return SNP governments in Scotland and the overwhelming number of MPs to Westminster (50+). The situation will not be sustainable long term - even worse if the UK were to return a hung Parliament.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The SNP are citing Brexit to argue extenuating circumstances on this. I think they'd be better off arguing that the last 10 months seems like a lifetime. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Comedy gold Mick. Taking back control, sovereignty, take your pick.

Is this joining US politics as a subject you have "no interest" in yet post strong opinions on a regular basis?

It's not for me to sell it to the English members of Cable Forum, it's for the SNP to sell it to Scotland. A job they seem particularly good at of date despite so called "scandal".

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Scanned through the above - still no benefit of leaving offered. :dozey:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

In your opinion. However as I've pointed out many times the English lecturing the Scottish on what is good for them plays into SNP hands.

I've even generously offered to pay for Old Boy to come and campaign in May. :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I desperately hope they just ignore them, let them have their own non-binding referendum if they want , every year. I would pass a Bill that decreed a proper referendum to be undertaken any year from 2056, in law, and let them stew in their own piss until then.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

As we all discovered no Parliament can bind a future Parliament so any such decree wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on.

It's good to know the English would rather see Scottish political discourse stuck for 40 years rather than focusing on schools, the economy, health and moving forward inside or outside the UK.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

And if you think you got a gotcha on me, because I voted to leave the EU, think again - you do know what the difference is, because last time I looked, EU wasn't a country, to pull oneself away from. Do try harder dear. :dunce:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If you can't see the rank hypocrisy then there's little point in debating you on it. :dunce:

Decicion making can be taken at a range of levels. Local, national or supranational. The concepts of control remain the same.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

And what exactly do you want to take control of, that you don't control now or indeed make decisions on?

Because my goodness, I can only think of....wait for it.... ching ching..

The Weather?

:Sun: :Sun: :Sun: :Sun:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Any of the areas specifically reserved by the Scotland Act 1998.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I think you’ll find it is the SNP that has sacrificed, education, NHS, Drug use, COVID and just about everything else on the alter of independence, not the English.

They had their shot. They can try again in 2056.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The SNP progress their manifesto and stand for election just like any other party. It would be the UK Government blocking such progress for an entirely arbitrary reason, in your provocative proposal until an entirely arbitrary date, not the SNP.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Tell me when the SNP cared about the bits underlined?

I remember Andrew Neil's question to Nicola Sturgeon, around the time there was a scare about President Trump apparently taking an interest in our NHS and how they would do their upmost to stop the former president from getting his hands on it, but Andrew Neil rhymed off a list of issues with the NHS in Scotland, and asked wee Nicola if it shouldn't be Donald Trump that the NHS needs protecting from but the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon...

There is always a video... :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I’m loving your use of “arbitrary” across several threads........have you just found out what it means?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yet where are the opposition to capitalise on this? The SNP are on course to absolutely rinse them in May by a margin that makes leaving the EU and Biden's emphatic win over Trump look tiny.

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

No, it's just a common thread for the evening that people are making arguments without fully thinking them through which makes it easy to throw "arbitrary" around.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

In the grand scheme of things, they could win a million seats, they still couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, they're fecking horrible, all they give a toss about is separation that leads to nowhere but ruin.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Stephen Glover accepts the downside of economic arguments:
His recommendation seems to be to accept a referendum but to delay it until Boris - hugely unpopular in Scotland - is no longer PM and the issues with Brexit are no longer making headlines. This way, the referendum is less likely to go in favour of devolution. But not to delay it until 2055 which he sees as too far off.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...k-genteel.html

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

My late grandad was born in Glasgow (Gorbals), but grew up in Edinburgh.

He fought in WWII to defend the UK and not Scotland, he would be spinning in his grave at how the SNP are attempting to destroy the Union and bankrupt Scotland.

I would like to know how the SNP will fund all of Scotland needs with 5.46 million people, bearing in mind roughly 1/2 of these will not be taxpayers. (bearing in mind London has a population of 9.3 million).

They would lose their free prescriptions to start, would they be allowed to keep and use Stirling, I guess the Army they would have to pay for, and we should protect the waters around the island.

But what about the border, Scotland would be in neither the UK nor EU, so would need some kind of ID to enter the UK to access the ports to Europe in the South.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I expect the SNP will follow the Vote Leave playbook. Don't focus on likely practicalities as that doesn't win votes. Instead, focus on the higher level emotional issues of sovereignty.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I think Sturgeon should be arrested shot then given a fair trial in England.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Knowing my grandad, tarred and feathered more like

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Well I would hope so, as it is in Scotland after all....;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

:D:D:D

As I think Damien mentioned last year - in the event of devolution, England/Wales will be retaining Edinburgh though. :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Glasgow would insist on it... :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

:tu:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The logical conclusion to this article seems to be that Boris needs to step down to try and help ensure Scotland does not leave the UK.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bori...21-1?r=US&IR=T