Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap:

Alex & Clayton - Absolutely superb performance. Wonderful.

That AND the EU info tonight, we might be getting somewhere to stop this. It's soooo wrong. (Might be, might!)

:clap: :clap:

For Alex: (_)>

For Clayton: (_)>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More on this directive

Here & here...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After reading the reply from Viviane Reding it certainly looks like we'd get more support from the European parliament than our own. I'm sure the European courts wouldn't have as much reluctance to get BT in the dock over the illegal 121 media and Phorm trials.

It's a pity this info didn't arrive before the meeting, as I'm sure that it has huge potential in defeating Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

theres also the potential if there are any laptops etc and wireless connections going in the bars, we might see some chat surface here or elsewere soon...

so much for the live video stream request, i should have known it wouldnt happen.

after all you need a wirelessly connected laptop, a connected cam pointing in the right direction, and a free copy of VLC set in streaming server mode from the wizard menu, in the room.....

and pointing to a web server somewere or run your own on the laptop and have a few people re-stream it from their better connected end points, real rock science
Doh.:shocked::fit::bsmack:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

- So how do we make that happen?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know Phorm may be treating us as Neanderthals living in the Stone Age, blinding us with pseudo techno-science, but shouldn't that be rocket? ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nope, rocket science needs some real thought, Rock science needs none...

not my bad typeing this time ;) (Ok so i missed the s out on need ;) )

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey now, behave. One of my cousins got his PHD in Geology :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Tell that to a Geologist! ;)

p.s. I only did A Level...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just posted back on the NG asking for the OPs source.
No reason to distrust, but can't hurt to verify.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

with the odd exception's OC ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

See my link to Directive 2002/58EC in post 3503

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed. And if I am not mistaken, Alexander will be the first to acknowledge the input and support of all those on this forum who reject this technology. Well done indeed Alexander and well done to you all.

No more time for group hugs though; a bloody nose won't be enough to stop these plans.

To inphinity and beyond!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just got back from the meeting

Great work by Alex, didn't seem fazed by the event and put across a strong case against.

Dr Clayton also very good. Unequivocal that the process is illegal under RIPA and deeply objectionable from a privacy perspective

Kent was as you would expect - On message and deeply disingenuous!!! He has the politicians habit of answering a question by talking about anything but the subject of the question.

He also spent a lot of time trying to portray Phorm as being good for internet as a whole on the basis that it will lead to a fairer distribution of revenue from advertising. It basically translated as google make lots of money, I want some of it.

The techie from Phorm seemed honest, his main purpose seemed to be rebuttal of Richard Clayton - which was far from convincing

Quote of the evening

Kent: "contrary to popular rumour the guardian has not dropped Phorm..."

Charles Arthur: " Hi, Charles Arthur from the Guardian. Our senior commercial chappies have told everyone we are not having anything to do with Phorm. Are they misleading us?"

Kent: cue furious backpedalling similar to that seen by a politician who has been caught out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have decided to coin a new term to describe the sentiment in the quote from Alexander:

"What Phorm is trying to do is to turn people into products.; a global warehouse selling pieces of us to highest bidders."

New term is terra-phorming.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks. I did have a quick look at your links but it's way too late for me to start reading all that (don't have stamina like Alexander does). I'll have a good look tomorrow at work.;)

Clarification from the OP on the NG is in; it was a personal reply to him. Need to request the commissioner to put this on an EU page as a public statement.
Anybody up for this? It's not my sort of thing as I wouldn't know how to phrase it:dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Priceless! :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another little thing I found today which I havent seen mentioned so far:

Quote from link: "Executive director of ORG Becky Hogge said: 'I'm concerned that the claims that Phorm breaks RIPA [Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act] are not being investigated.'

She added: 'The Home Office, who should investigate, have so far kept quiet.' "

http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=conWebDoc.18793

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done on attending and thanks for the update.

I don't doubt that Kent's backsliding and jinking was in evidence. He does after all hold a Bachelor's degree in Politics from Princeton University.

I pointed out similar in #3461 http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post3461.html

Are you able to elaborate on anything mentioned in the much curtailed q&a?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After hearing about the EU development, Phorm recruit another PR team member

http://sehlhorst.smugmug.com/photos/53113926-M.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

HA HA HA HA HA :dunce::dunce::o::o:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh lord. They still hiring personnel:

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...o,353155.shtml

Sometimes I hate googling for news about Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think there is a need for a "Global War on Terra-Phorming" :D

Look forward to seeing the unedited video of the event thanks to Simon Davies and team. Just so we can see Alex and The Doctor do their thing (and of course that wonderful quote about the Guardian, love that, hope it comes out on tape ok!)

Hank

---------- Post added at 22:12 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------


You'd think they have enough chiefs wouldn't you? It's indians they need. Indians with a sense of the natural order and what's right/wrong, and when to give up!

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Smacks of desperation. Along the lines of "hey, this guy got Google doubleclick past the FTC so let's hire him tout suite".

Still a concern though. Seems they are not interested in changing their model but more than willing to hire obfuscatory front men to convince others that the model complies. I'd be appalled if Jeffrey Brooks Dobbs was not able to conclude that Phorm's layer 7 DPI is not illegal in the EU regardless of his work in the US.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm so glad Kent went along too. People misunderestimate him. He does more to discredit Phorm every time he opens his mouth than any of us have managed to achieve in weeks of complaining.

I take my hat off to him. :dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The poor fellow is probably so wrapped up in being ten steps ahead of things not yet thrown at him in order to spin reality that by the time his mind comes back to the present he can't remember what colour underwear he chose that morning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They just don't get the message do they Google my monitor our clicks when we search on google but they do not have our personal details like our ISP, they don't get paid to supply us with an internet connection. They are entitled to earn money from our serches they supply and collate this data for free to us we dont have to suscribe. Are Virgin Media going to allow us to use the internet 24/7 for no fee!! doubt it hence this is a service paid for, we sleect what we want as we serve if we want adverts we select to look at what we search for.. Most of the time the adverts are blcked...

Do we want to pay for somoene to snoop into everything we do then have them sell this to phorm for more money...

I build a few websites I have stored online the family tree as it is so far collated only 4 people have access to these pages.. I would be very annoyed if I found out phorm had read these pages gathered a selection of words from these pages as they are private and can help to identify me. I cannot afford to pay to have them as https and why should I the only way these can be found it bey phorm ilegaly gathering the information as they are not on open webspace. There are many files likethis all over the internet which are still visited by the few people who kow the url.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Let him carry on. He turns shooting yourself in the foot into an artform.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You ARE joking, right??

I take it you have never called up Technical Support.... :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fast? This thread gets so many updates so quickly that I sometimes think you've hooked it up to that IRC chat room Alexander mentioned way back!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ROFL. Very good. An artform I hope and trust he will continue perfecting ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry for not picking up on your post first time, Cobbydale. Directives have direct effect in the UK, so this is a statement of the law in the UK, and very interesting.

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

Do you think Mr Brooks Dobbs knows that he has accepted this appointment

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My congratulations to Alexander Hanff, I thought he did a superb job. I think he said "DO NOT WANT" at least 3 times at the end for which he should be rewarded :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What about, as a mark of our appreciation, we make no further posts in this thread until Alexander returns with a report from the meeting? It seems an immediate way for us to convey our respect for what he has done for us. When he next posts he will be greeted with:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would it be possible for someone to do a diagram on exactly how this software works. ie. the processes and equipment used, and where on the system. Based on This from Dr Richard Clayton.

I think it will help the less technically minded understand the ins and outs a bit more.

Maybe if more people can relate to the process rather than keywords like privacy invasion etc, more people would be behind us.
I'm sure many visitors have come to this thread and been a bit overwhelmed with all the technical stuff being discussed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BTW i forgot , or did i?,to be sure....
:welcome: No.34

----------------------
if you feel the need to spread the Phorm word to the asia markets and readers, to help the world Know, there was a nice clean PR phormed story yesturday just waiting for your comments.
http://www.digitalmediaasia.com/defa...rticleID=30526

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Omnicare, Inc. (NYSE:OCR), one of the nation's leading providers of pharmaceutical care for the elderly, today announced the appointment of Steven J. Heyer to its Board of Directors. Mr. Heyer's appointment is the second of two planned appointments of independent directors to Omnicare's Board prior to its 2008 Annual Meeting of Stockholders.

Mr. Heyer currently is on the board of directors of Lazard Ltd and UK-based Phorm, Inc. as well as the National Collegiate Athletic Association and the Special Olympics.
http://www.genengnews.com/news/bnite...?name=33743618

So where do you think this will lead, no doubt Phorm will use your medical search history to target you with pharmaceutical ads, contrary to what they have said.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

opps, kursk, thats what happens when theres loads of posts and you dont get to follow the leading edge.

im also poping around the world feeding and being fed leads that go nowere or somewere as the case may be, its very quiet right now and i wouldnt expect Alexander to show up as he's probably in a bar or traveling back, and remember ,he's had no sleep last night, so probably running on empty given his busy day...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You did forget, popper. :)

Thanks for confirming my sanity; I've been sitting here saying to myself, "I'm sure that's gone up! I'm sure it was 33 earlier."

jellybaby, it would be interesting to compare a diagram of the process as set out by Dr Clayton against the 'official' diagram that BT have released here: http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/customer_choice.html. The BT diagram definitely claims to go nowhere near Phorm stuff if you opt out, which does not fit in with what Dr Clayton reports (with Phorm's agreement).

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and the same points stand,clear as day, weather its Phorm gifted DPI kit or BT BAPF DPI kit, they are intercepting your connection with the first thing your datastream hits is the BT Owned DPI kit,collecting it and processing it in the RAM of the kit,BEFORE they have asked for permission,...and if you just say "NO" to their upcoming Opt-in intercepted page.

then they are unlawfully storing and/or reading a data cookie they have not got the right to place in your PC's RAM or on your Harddrive or permission to read this data they want to store there that says "NO".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Totally agree with you; interception at any point is wrong and illegal.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Earlier on, someone made the point either on this forum or on Badphorm or BT forum, (I can't find it again now!) that we are raising the issue of "Phorm" in the public eye, but it's going to be sold to them as "webwise", especially when they are offered an opt-in.

Should we not get into a habit of always talking about phorm/webwise?

Both words together, all the time?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just got back from the meeting. More people than I thought would be there including the BBC's Darren Waters, Rory Cellan Jones, Charles Arthur from the Guardian and a film crew (presumably C4)

Interesting stuff on the technical side of things from Dr Clayton and a resounding finale - Phorm is illegal.

Kent's side of things was more of the same spin, 'it's good for the internet'. Though I did like the title slide for his: An Internet Privacy Revolution, funnily enough that's how I see it but probably not in the same way he does.

Alex was good, a strong argument against.

As an aside Kent & Dr Clayton were the only two with a visual presentation and Dr Clayton was the last of the two. His last slide was a summary of why Phorm is illegal, as such it was on screen for pretty much the whole event after he finished. Should make a nice backdrop if C4 do show some clips.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

darren http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technolog...ate_londo.html
said 100 people, but was that Professional film crew etc.
that was the ONLY (almost live) coverage BTW Winston.

so we are hungry for more data, and fibod #3515 being the first back to give feedback so your the second....

look forward to anything else you can add.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done Alexander you did great. Big round of applause :clap: and major thanks to you for attending.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

did you here them say anything about when the pro film footage that Simon said he would arrange was to be put online, if infact it was taken?.

the live streaming video feed requested never happened, so im not even sure the Simon pro footage took place eather, aside from the TV companys OC, we think C4 news was there, but perhaps BBC tv was there too?.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BBC item now up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7349715.stm

Nice, boxed, quote from Alexander and a link from the BBC news front page.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There were quite a few cameras there, I expect they will need to edit it altogether before putting it online. There was no comment about when/where it would appear. I saw Dr Clayton being interviewed on camera, not sure by who.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There were as far I could tell two separate cameras setup. One was active for the whole meeting, so I assume that was the 80/20 setup. The other I reckon was C4, they seemed to do an interview or two, but I didn't notice if they taped the whole thing.

They didn't mention when it would be posted, or if they did I missed it.

Rory Cellan Jones (who does the Today programme I think) taped it all and interviewed Dr Clayton before the meeting so hopefully there will be something tomorrow.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just voted 'no' as this type of data has been harvested for years.

Phorm is just a baby in comparison to the real farmers out there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree, I feel that this type of thing has been going on since the early 90's.

If this goes ahead, what options do we have other than ditching the internet? Which won't happen because they know were addicted to it... Well I am. :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The most telling quote of all, from the BBC News article on the phorm event:

Mr Webwise, Phorm or whatever you want to call yourself, perhaps you, and your fellow ISPs really need to examine, in depth, your own statements. :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Q&A degenerated a bit compared to the first part of the session and a fair bit of the time was wasted by Kent waffling on to avoid actually answering the question. Key points as far as I remember.

Kent was asked two or possibly three times about the commercial implications of having to move to and opt in model. No straight answer was given. I think we can assume not good.

One audience member suggested that his previous experience in military spec comms lead him to think that implementing Phorm within BT comms structure materially weakened the security of the system. I didn't follow his point too well, I wasn't techie enough.

The tame Phorm techie said that it was philosphically ok for their system to forge the cookies of third party websites as 'the cookies are owned by the person doing the browsing' - I don't think he has studied a lot of philosophy.

On the subject of the Phorm system moving from 'basic advertising' to more intensive intrusion i.e. function creep - Kent said the ISPs would police phorm as they had the most to lose from abusing the position of trust. Alexander helpfully pointed out that BT had already lost all the trust people had in them.

One older gentlemen told Kent that his technology was the first step towards a Fahrenheit 451 society. Kudos to him.

Both kent and the Phorm techie made vague aspersions that Phorm was perfectly legal. However when asked specifically on the BT trials, they made absolutely no comment apart from trotting out the BT statement almost verbatim. I think they are worried.

Thats all that I can recollect from the Q&A session. One other thing from Richard Clayton's presentation.

He said that a website would be able to use a javascript thingie on a webpage to read all the details contained in a forged webwise cookie. One of the audience asked the probability of it occurring, to which the curt reply was that the probability was 1. Richard Clayton also seemed to indicate that this exploit had been demonstrated in a lab environment but he wasn't very clear on that.

Thats all folks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: No.35 The jackal
-----------------------------------
Mick,paul etc have you seen this, perhaps as i asked before, you might consider it?..
http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...comment-163549


"

1. Message Says:
   April 14th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
   Message to cableforum.co.uk
   Since your Sign On Page is http & not https & I am a BT Customer, it would not be in keeping with my Security to Enter either a Sign in Name, PASSWORD or E-mail Address on your Site!
   I am sure other potential posters, who may have useful information have also declined to join in your discussions for this very reason!"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Rob - don't know if you caught the above, it's a few pages back now. Kent does tend to leave a few good quotes behind him! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's why its included in the title of the thread. ;)

I've seen suggestions from some members regarding a fund and that could the CF team manage it. Well there needs to be some sort of clarification as to what this is for - is this a short term solution to compensate, as a true gesture of good will for Alexander for attending the meeting tonight or is this something for more longer term?

If its for a longer term then clear guidelines need to be drawn up as to what the fund is for and its aims. The fund would need at least 2 - 3 trustees. These don't have to be team members.

If its for a short term solution - the best thing would be for Alexender to set up a paypal account to receive donations online. That way Alexander gets the donations direct (Through a safe means of transfer without giving out bank account information etc etc) rather than through third person to pass on to Alexander.

Of course its up Alexander if he wishes to accept donations in this manner. But I am sure he can see there are some who want to show their appreciation.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've put up a response to that. Rather off topic I think for that site though.

However as far a Phorm / webwise and any similar points go there are concerns. Most message boards are indeed not https, yet by choice many users choose to give some private details. It is for the use during their signup and subsequent use, to determine their trust of the site. They have the belief the site will endeavour to abide by it's terms of use. More importantly though, they have the belief that their data transmissions are not being intercepted.

Message boards are perhaps the most vulnerable thing to the privacy of users compared to phorm. Many users disclose stuff they shouldn't often to non public parts of the board. Where there is no https, are we saying that phorm can scan the message boards of private areas restricted to member only users?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

given the abilitys of the layer7 DPI kit , can it , for sure, they dont call it 'a man in the middle attack' for nothing and usually that refers to the far slower software impimentations not this commercial grade Deep Packet Inspection Hardware. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_packet_inspection

will it, scan the private password protected areas in just http sites ?,given the current data we have all looked over these last few weeks, it can and it will, infact it appears it cant stop itself, unless its manually got your site details in some Phorm of blacklist they maintain, the total oposite of everyone else, they will unless they know not too...


BUT regarding https see this BT question put just today...
the implication is they already did perhaps read https at some point in one of the old trials......

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/me...ID=17784#17784
"L deAblow [img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Posts: 59
Registered: 3/13/08 Re: BT Webwise Discussion Thread
Posted: Apr 15, 2008 7:46 PM [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] in response to: Mark W [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] Reply
Mark W can I confirm that those people who had problems accessing services like Rapidshare at the time of the profiling were being distrupted by the PHORM profiler.

Rapidshare limit the number of downloads per IP and also check for the same account accessing the rapidshare service simulateously.

With the Profiler also getting a copy of the web page after I have used my account to log in would suggest they were profiling HTTPs as well as HTTP during the trial.

This would obviously show that banking account details were also profiled as part of the trial.

Please comment soonest as Rapidshare keep a log of all IP that a account holder uses
For support free of commercial sleaze try the other forum at http://www.filesaveas.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?catselect=general"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To me it looks like that Phorm can snoop on all forums PM's. :shocking::afire:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My personal thoughts on the matter of donations were initially for a short term solution to cover the costs of Alexander's trip and a little extra as a thank you. He'd have to decide of course that he was happy with this and can make his own thoughts known later.

As for a longer term fund I have also given this some thought. i feel if we were to set up an official action group with clear and defined objectives, open to forum members and non members alike, and driven by some core people best placed to head such a group then a fighting fund would need to be implemented.
I think we should wait for a transcript of the meeting and then poll the members as to if they thought such a group would be in the best interests of driving the opposition message forward.

We have, many of us, sent letters to various bodies and had varied success. If we could organise a central group, backed by some of the more respected and knowledgeable names who seem to be in opposition then this might serve to have the people we are lobbying recognise us as a more legitimate action group.

Just some random thoughts, it is late and I have imbibed a few cold ones.


Craig


P.S. nearly forgot, thanks Fidbod for the reply re: q&a session.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK folks I am back. Been up for about 40 hours straight now so bare with me. We hit heavy fog on the M1/M6 on the way back (most of the way) so the drive home was painfully slow.

With regards filming of the meeting.

Channel 4 were there and filming, they approached me after the meeting as unfortunately they had not been there for my "speech" (I think they were interviewing someone in the hallway outside), so it is unlikely I will be in the C4 coverage.

However, there was a 2 camera professional setup with separate audio which will be appearing online unedited (the sound will be unedited, the video will be edited with regards to the 2 camera's having different angles, the final piece will be seamless with the audio). Obviously this might take a couple of days to get online given the work involved.

Before I go any further, I want to give a very special mention to one gentleman, a regular member of the public, who took the time and effort to attend. I don't know who he was, or where he was from, but if he was someone from this forum please do make yourself known. His words and reaction, I think were the most important of the entire meeting. He spoke after I finished supporting me as a member of the public and started out strong and bold but as he spoke it was clear that he was genuinely upset, I was incredibly moved by this and tried to find him after the meeting but unfortunately couldn't.

I missed a few points I wanted to raise and for that I apologise, I arrived late so didn't have a chance to get a glass of water, my throat was dry and I won't deny that the experience was a little overwhelming. In my defence though, I had very little time to prepare my speech as I wasn't asked to give it until 4:30am yesterday morning but I do think I made some important points.

I hope people are not disappointed that I didn't raise the legal issues of the 2006/2007 trials; it was obvious that it would have just been a waste of time (and there wasn't enough time as it was we ended up almost being kicked out of the lecture hall for over-running) as BT carried out the trials so it was never expected that Phorm would answer any question directly related to this. So I tried to go back to basics and talked about ECHR and why it came into existence in the first place. I talked about turning people into products and the global warehouse pieces of us are planned to be sold in. I also mentioned how people feel insulted that Phorm feel they have the right to profile them. I emphasised that fundamental human rights cannot be overturned by implied consent and that the general public (in my eyes) don't care that the data is anonymous they simply do not want this technology invading their privacy in any way. I also expressed my concern over Phorm refusing to provide a user-agent for content owners to include in robot.txt and in my conclusion stated that Phorm -must- provide a user agent. I also discussed trust and how there simply wasn't any for Phorm or BT as result of the actions and revelations of the past 2 months.

At the end of the speeches/presentations and the Q&A with the panel, we were all given the opportunity to sum up our thoughts in 30 seconds; what I said for my summary is a bit of a blur now but I think you will appreciate it once the video is released, I believe I closed by stating something along the lines of this being the most intrusive activity to privacy ever.

After the meeting it was very busy, I was approached by several academics, experts and members of the press. I spent considerable time talking to a prestige crowd at the after event "gathering" including Dr Richard Clayton, Gus and Simon from 80/20T, a senior legal representative from Orange (who's name currently escapes me due to my fatigue but I have it in my notes and will rectify this issue later today), people from Cambridge Uni, ORG, British Computer Society and many others.

The chap from Orange was very interesting and confirmed that Orange were not interested in deploying Phorm's technology until they could devise a true opt in solution (with real consent not some buried terms) at the authentication level. His thoughts were it might be possible to put Phorm opt-ins onto a separate IP block so that only that block of IPs went anywhere near Phorm's kit. He basically got the point and his views echoed many of the issues and concerns expressed over the past few months. I have to say it was an absolute pleasure to have the opportunity to talk to him.

Now, let me just get one thing clear before I go any further with regards the attacks on 80/20T and in particular Simon Davies. I was very proud and honoured to be invited to speak at the meeting (by Simon without even consulting Phorm in advance). Simon and I were in discussions via PM on this forum and email until approx 6am yesterday morning and not only was he very honest and sincere, he was even kind enough to offer me some advice and moral support which I will now quote as I am sure he won't mind:

"I would say that you're strength is your passion. You are carrying the
rights perspective. That's powerful. We need to hear that case put clearly
and unequivocally. Be measured, empirical and assertive - but I'm sure you
are all those things!"

This was in a personal email so I normally wouldn't disclose such information but I think it is important to end this unjustified attack some people have made on Simon.

When I arrived at the meeting and introduced myself to him, the man hugged me and I am far from ashamed to disclose that (he also hugged me at the gathering later in the evening.) He is an incredible man and when you meet him face to face, his passion for his work as a privacy advocate is very clear and very humbling and some of the things people have said have actually been very hurtful to him and upsetting.

Tonight I met some of the most inspiring and decent people I am ever likely to meet in my lifetime, Simon and Richard in particular and words can't describe that experience. I was treated with the utmost respect by everyone who spoke to me (well almost, there was one gentleman who approached me immediately after the meeting who clearly wasn't happy with me being the "voice of the public" claiming that the people I represent were a small group of complainers, he even suggested only 250 people had signed the petition on the PM website. I never saw him again after this but needless to say I refuted all his arguments) and I am very thankful of that.

I left the gathering around 11:30 and got home shortly before 5am.

Final thoughts? The meeting didn't really discuss anything new but it was important given that is enabled and initiate dialogue in an open forum. It was not a PR event (however much Kent might have wanted it to be) I only saw one supporter of Phorm in the audience who attempted to heckle Richard on a couple of occasions and was well despatched by the same. In reality, the questions coming from the audience were more a reflection of the issues raised from our side of the fence and the audience made it clear that they were not even remotely happy with Kent's answers or opinions on law and the wider issue as a whole; so I respectfully suggest some people have some humble pie to eat and some apologies to issue to Simon Davies.

The PIA will be ready at the end of the month, but in a discussion with Simon later it was made clear that a solution with regards to opting in was a serious issue that needs to be addressed.

It was a great night, one I will never forget, I am only sorry that I never managed to meet more of the forum members who turned up, I wish they had made themselves known to me.

With regards all this talk of donations, there really is no need. However, if people really do want to make donations, I will use them to buy some books I need for my Masters and the offers are very much appreciated.

Now I need some sleep, but I will be back later to answer any questions and of course continue where we left off yesterday; in our fight against this technology, my dissertation and the fight to hold BT accountable for the illegal trials in 2006/2007.

Good night, thanks to everyone for their kind words and keep up the good fight, it really does seem to be making a difference.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Your constant hard work on this subject is very much appreciated. :tu:

The BBC have added more info HERE

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nice one, Alexander. Very pleased the meeting went well and thank you for presenting the users' perspective.
I'm particularly happy that you too have met Simon and realise that he's not been rephormulated... ;)

:clap: :cleader:

I know virtually nothing about how the ISPs' network gear works but was wondering if Phorm-related kit could not be positioned on an http proxy server that could be configured within each user's browser, eg on port 8080?

It certainly sounds like a simple solution that would involve no unauthorised DPI to check opt-in status and would allow anyone to completely avoid Phorm-infected kit.

Any technical comments would be appreciated, if only to get the idea out of my head?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just wish i could have attended.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done Alexander ,

When you get up I think you should look at this reply (copied from VM newsgroups)

Reply from EU Information, Society & Media Commissioner Viviane Reding

The Commission is aware of the activities of the company Phorm in the UK,
concerning the analysis of internet traffic for advertising purposes, the
agreement between Phorm and major internet service providers in the UK and
the concerns that have beep raised about the effects on privacy of these
activities. Privacy and the protection of personal data are fundamental
rights of the citizens of the EU. They are enshrined in Articles 7 and 8 of
the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, and also protected by the European
Convention on Human Rights and the related instruments of the Council of
Europe, to which all EU Member States are signatories.

The general principles for the protection of personal data are defined in
Directive 95/46/EC and complemented and particularized for electronic
communications by Directive 2002/58EC on privacy and electronic
communications (ePrivacy Directive).

The ePrivacy Directive obliges Member States to ensue the confidentiality of
communications and related traffic data through national legislation. In
particular, they shall prohibit listening, tapping, storage or other kinds
of interception or surveillance of communication and the related traffic
data by persons other than the users without their consent, which must be
freely given, specific and informed indication of the user's wishes. The
data concerned in this particular matter i.e. the content of search queries,
constitute communication within the meaning of this Directive and the URLs
used in the packets constitute traffic data. This data should therefore be
protected appropriately.'

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, my sincere thanks.

Yesterday was a very important milestone, not just for us, but also I feel, for you personally as well. And yes, I would love to donate something towards your Masters book fund.

Ali (((huggsss)))

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Firstly many thanks to Alexander, it sounds like the meeting was very productive.

The Phorm issue featured on Radio 4 this morning at around 7.30 It's onto the listen again section now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/li...2_20080416.ram

Phorm bit starts 22.39 minutes in

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have to love the "double-speak" in that article -
"Phorm, the global digital technology company that is revolutionizing online data privacy for users"

Much like Pol Pot revolutionised health care for Cambodians :erm:

Makes you wonder what Phorm's "mission statement" is - "Liars, Liars, pants on fire!" perhaps?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I totally agree with all centements of thanks to Alexander, I really wish I could have been there to shake that mans hand, as I am really proud of him for what looks like "dedicating his life" to beating Phorm, and IMO, that man deserves a medal!


WAKE UP VM, this Phorm rubbish IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!

YOU even THINK of allowing these spyware peddling criminals into your buildings to install this crud and YOU WILL BE TAKEN TO COURT AND SUED SO DAMN HARD, no amount of over-subscribed areas will get you lot out of this massive hole you are digging for yourselves!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've already posted this, along with source clarifications and subsequent caveats. (Posts 3481, 3485, 3496, 3511 and 3517)
However, there is a good chance Alexander could miss these due to last nights activity so it doesn't hurt to reiterate. :tu:

Anyway, this was taken from a personal reply to an email. We really need to see it on an EU headed web page.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yet again the British are all mouth and no action that's why you're always walked over.

There are 1000 votes here, if everyone were to pledge £500 we could make a go of this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think last night will probably be a watershed in this whole issue.

The fears of many that phorm had something up their sleeves in
this PR meeting have come to nothing.

The case was presented clearly and eloquently by Dr Clayton and
Alexander and, just as importantly, the audience. in front of what
we hope will be national media coverage

Maybe, just maybe kent may be getting the message that this
massive invasion of our privacy WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

Once again many, many thanks to Alexander
People who have his drive, passion, knowledge and eloquence
(not to mention his seeming ability to go days without sleep), do not
appear in society very often and we are so lucky to have found this man
in our midst.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh we seem to be doing pretty well in our customary amateur and cheapskate way!
But if you've got £500 to spare, I'm sure Alexander or Privacy International would be very appreciative...

:blah:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please Alexander, set up an Amazon Wish List. Put all the books you need on it, and publish the address. Its a ten minute job.

The books will be yours in an hour, I'm absolutely certain of it.

Pete

Amazon Wish Lists

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Plezase do not attack me, if you're fine with VM, then so be it, but DONT have a go at people for different oppinions than yourself!!

You talk about paying, would YOU be prepaired to pay £500?? I say to that you are VERY lucky if you have a spare £500!!!

What about people on low incomes or single families???

Wake up please!

Is it the customers fault that virgin (and NTL previously) are in such amount of debt???

If i owed a quarter of what they owe, I'd be taken to court & declaired bankrupt, knowing english law, I'd probably spend a few years inside too, so dont try using that as it is not our fault, WE should NOT have to bail virgin out of their problems, no way on your nelly matey!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No you read me wrong. The funds gathered would be used for legal action. Once we get say 50K together we'll soon get pledges/offers from individuals with more clout.

And yes I would pledge £500 as a matter of principal even though I'm neutral to this whole 'phorm' issue that people are crying wolf about.

Sorry I wasn't attacking you directly just the general consensus

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Crying wolf? Excuse me? You may not care about these issues but a lot of us do and a lot of us see this as a threat not just for what it is right now but for what uses it could be put to later on down the line. The much discussed issue of function creep. I don't accept that people are crying wolf on this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What's the threat here ? Are you under attack from terrorism ?

What exactly are you scared of when much more sophisticated eavesdropping technology already exists and is being used. :shrug:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's funny, you sound just like Kent did last night, "Look at what everyone else is doing, they're worse!!!11!!!"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The threat is to our privacy, our right to not have our communications UNLAWFULLY intercepted. The fact that our clickstream data is going to be auctioned off to the highest bidder. Its the thin edge of the wedge. I just knew you were going to bring up the issue of terrorism.

Heres the point. If the government/MI5 etc wants to do what phorm is going to be doing (intercepting communications) then they have to get a court order to do so. Phorm plans to do this by default just in order to push adverts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A couple of points that I didn't get to make last night at the meeting last night.

1. I think the earlier poster is quite right, it's unfair to say "the general public thinks x". The general public at the moment doesn't know their phorm from their elbow (although that will change). "The technical community" would have been a more accurate phrase.

It is worth noting however that the technical community tend to be one of the bedrocks on which the general public computing experience sits - have a problem with your internet connection? don't understand this phorm thing? printer not working? Who do you speak to? Your local techie.

2. The whole "honouring robots.txt is implied consent to interception" is utter ******** and made me really quite cross, just because I want my pages to be accessible and searchable easily DOES NOT mean that I consent to a third party intercepting the transmission of those pages.

To use an analogy (no cars!), if I'm handing out a bunch of different leaflets, anyone is more than welcome to take whatever leaflets they like. It is no-one's business however (other than mine and Joe Bloggs), what specific leaflets Joe Bloggs decides to take from me.

3. Choice.

Choice was mentioned a lot by Kurt, choice on having cookies stored for ages, choice to have your web browsing profiled by IP address from a number of sites. Yes there is choice, there is the choice to use a service or to not use it. When an ISP employs phorm, the choice in having data intercepted vanishes. Therefore my next choice will be to use a Phorm-free ISP.

Chris

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you feel so passionately about the subject then

" DO SOMETHING REAL ABOUT IT "

Crying wolf on public forums doesn't really help nor does a petition with a handful of sigatures.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Like go to a public meeting to voice your discontent?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed.

I saw that any minutes from the meeting or a plan of action yet ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

JUST what IS your problem Jackal???

How would YOU like having some nosey, intrusive person viewing your EVERY movement, what you do, who you talk to, who you visit, and worse of all, whatch what you buy, only to sell this information??

UNTIL you understand how much this means to us, SHUT UP and keep your oppinions to YOURSELF, as i say YOU know jack about this, and I am only thankfull that there ARE people that are taking this seriously and are doing EVERYTHING they can to prevent this??

A little bit of advice: keep on going this way and you WILL upset a lot of CF members!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is nothing ordinary people can do about it, except switch ISPs, or break the law (by hacking their ISP/Phorm).

Opt out systems are illegal.

Opt in systems are seemingly unregulated (Police, ICO, and Home Office will not investigate complaints). So effectively Opt in offers no protection to consumers, ISPs are free to violate RIPA at will regardless of the explicit consent from their customers.

I've written a browser add on to counter Phorms Opt Out.

I've written server side tests that may allow web servers to detect Phorm.

And like many people, I have complained to my ISPs. They've either ignored or lied to me.

I've complained to my MP. But he's a Labour politician, and guess what... BT have a non executive director who is also a Labour MP.

Some parts of the press have covered it, notably Chris Williams at the Register... but some of the newspapers have a vested interest in ignoring it. Particularly the FT.

People like Alex have troubled to make public appearances.

I've made complaints to the Police, in person. Sitting in front of a Detective in an interview room.

I've made written complaints to the ICO. They were all ignored.

I've made complaints to the Home Office.

No one has investigated the complaints. Instead, all of them say 'its not our job to enforce RIPA'.

So just where do you get the idea people are doing nothing about this?

Or put another way, to be more constructive. What more do you think people should be doing? I'd be interested to hear, because if there is more we can do, I'm sure we will do it.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It seems it's not just us. Look at what NebuAd did across the Atlantic.

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente...udy_finds.html

And they want to come here too?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What technology are you referring to?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Even the minority have a voice - that's democracy.
I'm sure there is an element of bear baiting in Jackal's posts but, to paraphrase Voltaire, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's called constructive criticism - Look it up in a dictionary if you have one.

Anyone with more than two brain cells can see that - everyone else will just get agitated by any comment that does not agree to their own personal agenda.

Wow ! Amazing - Phorm does all that ?
Would you be kind enough to point me to the relevant document references ? I too would like to educate myself on the subject to take me to the level of knowledge that you have.

Many thanks in advance.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Democracy?, not in Labour's Britain

I have spoken to a local MP regarding this and they have recieved a few letters regarding this sent to them but even they are getting stonewalled or getting nonsensical replies from the relevant bodies when they make any inquiries

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

a big thankyou alexander for going on behalf of the general public and for those supporters that went to the meeting yesterday

its been an interesting read and like before has been mentioned on this forum moves incredibly fast

even i would like to contribute something to help alexander and to be able to fight this so that it was never implemented by phorm or any others that may try in the future

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@Dephormation Thankyou that's an excellent summary.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The *@@@@* stuff has been on google mail for some time now. So hence I have more than one "E" but its interesting to see what the system makes of some of my customers "E"s, better than a book!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Jackal may I politely suggest to you that you shut up. I HAVE done something about it. I have spent hours writing to MPs, MEPs, Liberty, commenting on news stories and blogs about this, telling friends and acquaintances about all this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you for your ignorance, the ONLY thing now left to say is: **IGNORED**

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Really? Where is it? What's it called? Is it being deployed without a warrant or judicial oversight by a private or public body and does it monitor nearly everything every user on a particular ISP network does on the internet without the informed consent of both parties involved in the communication? Does it do this purely for the purposes of advertising?

If you know about this and have any actual evidence that this is happening, why haven't you gone to the police? You're clearly in possession of evidence of criminal acts which no-one else is aware of. Why don't you share?

Either that or you don't know what you're talking about. You can have one guess which I'd put money on...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What's publically known is that the NSA can quite easily break 128bit encryption keys(which is the vast majority of so called secure web traffic) and worse still it's rumoured that 256bit keys are down the pan too.