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djfunkdup 18-11-2018 14:57
Re: Brexit
 
132-Days 9-Hrs 1-Min and 40-Seconds :)

Hom3r 18-11-2018 14:59
Re: Brexit
 
If by a miracle the losers, sorry Mod Edit get they way after crying so mush, and we remian the the corrupt EU.

I will never vote again as I can just start crying ang throw my toys out of the pram and demand another vote until I get my why.

I will go to vote but write on my ballot paper "WHY BOTHER, AS BREXIT MEANT BREXIT"

With a few choice words I cannot print here.

pip08456 18-11-2018 15:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971327)
Are you for real? You are sidetracking the conversation on the back of an opinion piece. Abbot has negotiated bad deals in the past that got postponed by his successor, indicating his understanding may not be as much as you first believed.
The only thing you've put forward so far is that the timetable for a trade agreementl with India was ambitious.

You have shown nothing else except you posited a trade agreement had been reached that did not go ahead. That was totally false.

Quote:
Did the agreement go ahead as negotiated by Mr Abbot or did it not?

Gavin78 18-11-2018 15:13
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971306)
We have a Prime Minister who wants to set the country back to the dark ages? I think that's clearly untrue.

She is carrying out the wishes of those who wanted to leave the EU - she has went and got the best deal she can. It's now up to Parliament to decide whether to accept or explore other options.

We haven't done any of the preparatory work required to crash out on WTO terms. To do so threatens the very existence of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. To align ourselves with EU standards and not impose tariffs means we are restricted in the trade agreements we can make with the rest of the world.

In a democracy nobody should be silenced, one of the fundamental freedoms is to be able to disagree.

Your entire post is over sentimental drivel. I can accept that, the most bitter of Brexit supporters is seeing their dream crumble before their very eyes.

However, when you strip the emotion out of the situation the cold facts are the EU holds all the cards and we hold none.

Listen to yourself. The vote was made to leave not leave the door half open.

You talk of democracy if this were true the wishes of those asking to leave the EU would be carried out and preperations for leaving would have been made WTO as an example.

The PM has tried to carry out the wishes for the whole country by getting a deal for both sides and making a complete crock of it.

If the vote had gone the otherway and was this close do you think anything would have changed? it wouldn't have and those 17m people would have just been silenced and life carry on.

All you have done is point out that no preperation for leaving is that anything beyond a vote to leave is all "leave" was going to get the rest from that point on is to appease the remain side with a remain sided PM.

OLD BOY 18-11-2018 15:53
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971324)

I'm loving how the pain in the Brexiteers is resulting in the conversation becoming sidetracked to avoid the reality that there's no Parliamentary majority for May's deal and none for No Deal.
Why pain? I quite like the choice between TM's deal and a no deal. That'll separate the men from the boys in the House of Commons! Whoops, sorry, ladies. :erm:

---------- Post added at 15:53 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35971329)
If by a miracle the losers, sorry Mod Edit get they way after crying so mush, and we remian the the corrupt EU.

I will never vote again as I can just start crying ang throw my toys out of the pram and demand another vote until I get my why.

I will go to vote but write on my ballot paper "WHY BOTHER, AS BREXIT MEANT BREXIT"

With a few choice words I cannot print here.
I hope not, Hom3r, because as a spoilt paper, your vote will not be counted. If everyone did that, the remainers would win by default.

Anyway, hopefully it will not come to that.

jfman 18-11-2018 16:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35971333)
Listen to yourself. The vote was made to leave not leave the door half open.

You talk of democracy if this were true the wishes of those asking to leave the EU would be carried out and preperations for leaving would have been made WTO as an example.

The PM has tried to carry out the wishes for the whole country by getting a deal for both sides and making a complete crock of it.

If the vote had gone the otherway and was this close do you think anything would have changed? it wouldn't have and those 17m people would have just been silenced and life carry on.

All you have done is point out that no preperation for leaving is that anything beyond a vote to leave is all "leave" was going to get the rest from that point on is to appease the remain side with a remain sided PM.
The vote was made to leave but it's impossible to implement in the timescales we have worked within.

It doesn't matter what would have happened if remain had won the first referendum - that's a hypothetical scenario.

In this real scenario we have no deal, a bad deal or remain. As the clock ticks down if the May deal fails this Parliament will not vote to leave the EU on no deal terms without either a) a second referendum and/or b) a General Election.

Anyone pretending there will not be a push for this is ignoring reality. With Rudd back on board this is a May cabinet. May has no skin left in the electoral game - she is toast anyway. She is the exact person the country needs to stop Brexit and that's why there's a clamour from the ERG to get her removed as soon as possible.

The ERG supports no deal anyway - it could oppose the May deal from the back benches if it genuinely believed there were only two options on the table. However, there are three.

I'm not actually a passionate remainer, I did vote to remain but could have easily voted the other way. I stand to benefit financially from the economic turmoil of leaving the EU with as much chaos as possible, the sector I work in will not feel the same effects of a recession and it'd open up investment opportunities. I'm just pointing out what's happening at Westminster level here.

---------- Post added at 16:17 ---------- Previous post was at 16:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35971329)
If by a miracle the losers, sorry Mod Edit get they way after crying so mush, and we remian the the corrupt EU.

I will never vote again as I can just start crying ang throw my toys out of the pram and demand another vote until I get my why.

I will go to vote but write on my ballot paper "WHY BOTHER, AS BREXIT MEANT BREXIT"

With a few choice words I cannot print here.
Ironically that's entirely neutral how you choose to waste your energy is irrelevant to the Government. If you choose to abstain in future elections then that's probably an adequate outcome for your sitting MP.

---------- Post added at 16:24 ---------- Previous post was at 16:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35971337)
Why pain? I quite like the choice between TM's deal and a no deal. That'll separate the men from the boys in the House of Commons! Whoops, sorry, ladies. :erm:
People aren't replying so passionately because I'm wrong.

If anyone genuinely believed I was wrong they'd just ignore me and leave me over here howling at the moon.

However the clock ticks on and there's three options on the table, not two.

jonbxx 18-11-2018 16:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35971315)
I feel that the Anglo/Irish GFA is just that and is bilateral. The EU snout is in there to support the Irish tail that is wagging the dog. The Irish interest is purely economic and their ploy is thus not in good faith.

The GFA does not mandate an open border. The issue is really a commercial matter not one of terrorism. By being tough, it could be left to the two countries to sort out. Trouble is that EU Law on which they are totally pedantic comes into play.

There is a strong case for no deal and let the EU erect a border to Ireland’s ennui. If they didn’t, then neither need we.

Why do you want to be bound to a bunch of nasties like the EU?
As we discussed before, the GFA is not a peace agreement on the whole but a framework of mutual cooperation that allows recognition of some in Northern Ireland to be Irish as well as British. If the North/South cooperation enables economic success to the mutual benefit of these on both sides of the border, that is surely a successful outcome?

Again, as we have discussed before, the open border facilitates North/South cooperation. To have a setup which stops an open border ends that facilitation and hinders the cooperation that has been in place for nearly 20 years.

The democratically elected government of Ireland delegates responsibility for some aspects of its business to the EU as we have and will do until we leave. What’s in it for Ireland to go it alone?

If there is no deal as you say there is a strong case for, and we keep an open border between the Uk and the Republic of Ireland, are you happy for an open trading borders with every member of the WTO under their rules?

Damien 18-11-2018 16:53
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35971314)
What is there to solve? Did you read the Abbot article?
I literally wrote the problem to solve in the quoted post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35971315)
The GFA does not mandate an open border. The issue is really a commercial matter not one of terrorism. By being tough, it could be left to the two countries to sort out. Trouble is that EU Law on which they are totally pedantic comes into play.
The agreement largely works because it fudges the question of identity. In Northern Ireland people can choose either or both an Irish and a British passport, they can be Irish or British, and another aspect of that is allowing them to move back and forth without feeling that divide. It's a fudge but one that works. It was never mandated because by happy coincidence the border was already 'open' as a result of the EU. All that was actually there were security checkpoints and not custom or passport checks. GFA got rid of many U.K imposed border infrastructure.

Sephiroth 18-11-2018 16:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971324)
No deal is hardly a quandary for the EU.

It's one of the options they have forced us into alongside 'bad deal'.

I'm sure the EU project as a whole wouldn't mind 'no deal' as an example to other Member States what life will be like for them if they leave. The EU will have been preparing for that contingency since June 2016.

While £39bn is a lot, I'm sure the largest trading bloc in the world can find it somewhere else.

---------- Post added at 14:46 ---------- Previous post was at 14:45 ----------



.
[COLOR="BLUE”] I had you smarter than that. You can see from the draft agreement and the political protocol that the EU is shit scared of the UK aging additional competitiveness after Brexit. Never mind the BMW, Mercedes, Prosecco and Frog Cheese that will take a hit.

These bad guys want to shackle us. You have conceded that the EU is out to punish us. Why would you want to have anything to do with them?


[/COLOR]

Damien 18-11-2018 17:00
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35971329)
I will never vote again as I can just start crying ang throw my toys out of the pram and demand another vote until I get my why..
You're never going to vote again because you can ask for another vote? :confused:

---------- Post added at 17:00 ---------- Previous post was at 16:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35971347)
I had you smarter than that. You can see from the draft agreement and the political protocol that the EU is shit scared of the UK aging additional competitiveness after Brexit. Never mind the BMW, Mercedes, Prosecco and Frog Cheese that will take a hit.
I think they've factored in the hit they'll take, they didn't want Brexit remember? However the hit isn't so dramatic that it forced the governments to give us whatever we wanted as the Leavers predicted. What happened to the Germany Car Manufactures forcing a deal? Or the 'Easiest Trade Deal' in history?

Maggy 18-11-2018 17:02
Re: Brexit
 
I have had to edit a certain word several times which is NOT to be used as the OP suggested it's not a word to be used to describe remainers. Please don't annoy me by repeating it again.

jfman 18-11-2018 17:06
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35971347)
[COLOR="BLUE”] I had you smarter than that. You can see from the draft agreement and the political protocol that the EU is shit scared of the UK aging additional competitiveness after Brexit. Never mind the BMW, Mercedes, Prosecco and Frog Cheese that will take a hit.

These bad guys want to shackle us. You have conceded that the EU is out to punish us. Why would you want to have anything to do with them?


[/COLOR]
I wouldn’t describe it as shit scared. I’d say it knows that it has the upper hand in negotiations and has the capability to include caveats that serve its own interests- as any rational capitalist entity would.

At no point have I endorsed any of your emotive language. Both the EU and the UK are trying to get the best deal they can. The reality is the EU hold the upper hand. It holds a pair of aces meanwhile we have the two of spades and an expired railcard. We brought that on ourselves by not effectively planning.

Sephiroth 18-11-2018 17:15
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35971343)
As we discussed before, the GFA is not a peace agreement on the whole but a framework of mutual cooperation that allows recognition of some in Northern Ireland to be Irish as well as British.

<SNIP>

If there is no deal as you say there is a strong case for, and we keep an open border between the Uk and the Republic of Ireland, are you happy for an open trading borders with every member of the WTO under their rules?
The GFA has been ascribed varying attributes in this thread. The closest to reflecting reality is yours, I would say.

But then there is Brexit. The EU pretends to want to protect the GFA because, ultimately, of the risk of terrorism. It seems to me that the UK guvmin has bought that; either they know something about terrorism that the EU doesn’t, or it’s just gullible. Ireland is only interested in the economical aspect. NThe EU is interested in carving Ulster away from the UK.

In such circumstances, we should not fall for the trick that keeps us uncompetitive, shackled to the EU and with the Irish smugly waving to fingers and a shelali at us.

I am happy for an open border with Ireland as you describe because, agai, it would scare the shits out of the legalistic EU about good going into Ireland. A useful starting point that could change later.



---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971352)
I wouldn’t describe it as shit scared. I’d say it knows that it has the upper hand in negotiations and has the capability to include caveats that serve its own interests- as any rational capitalist entity would.

At no point have I endorsed any of your emotive language. Both the EU and the UK are trying to get the best deal they can. The reality is the EU hold the upper hand. It holds a pair of aces meanwhile we have the two of spades and an expired railcard. We brought that on ourselves by not effectively planning.
Of course they hold the upper hand as long as we are the appeasers. The moment we walk out of talks because of their unreasonableness, we are free to do as we want, including reducing VAT and other competitive measures of which the EU are shit scared.

jfman 18-11-2018 17:18
Re: Brexit
 
If the EU were that scared would they not have offered us a good deal?

1andrew1 18-11-2018 17:35
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971355)
If the EU were that scared would they not have offered us a good deal?
Exactly. We threw away most of the cards in our hands when we invoked Article 50 without sorting out the groundwork so we could properly threaten a no-deal.

Sephiroth 18-11-2018 17:45
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971355)
If the EU were that scared would they not have offered us a good deal?
That’s not their way. In any case a good deal for us would disadvantage them so double not going to happen.

Hugh 18-11-2018 17:51
Re: Brexit
 
Professor David Andress has a new book out (Cultural Dementia), and I thought one of his lines summed up the ERG (Jacob Rees-Mogg, aka "Lord Snooty" et al), even though he wasn’t specifically talking about them.

Quote:
Gunboat diplomacy, without any gunboats. Colonial attitudes, without any colonies. Imperial pretensions, without any empire.

papa smurf 18-11-2018 18:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35971359)
Professor David Andress has a new book out (Cultural Dementia), and I thought one of his lines summed up the ERG (Jacob Rees-Mogg, aka "Lord Snooty" et al), even though he wasn’t specifically talking about them.
The xmas Beano is also on the shelves ;)

Hugh 18-11-2018 19:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35971364)
The xmas Beano is also on the shelves ;)
You read what you want, I’ll read what I want... ;)

Pierre 18-11-2018 20:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971339)
In this real scenario we have no deal, a bad deal or remain.
Sorry, we have a deal, which at first doesn’t fulfill all expectations but is at least a platform from which to negotiate a decent future trade agreement and relationship over the next two years. Or no deal.

There is no 3rd option.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971355)
If the EU were that scared would they not have offered us a good deal?
What bits about the Withdrawl agreement make it a “bad deal”

jonbxx 18-11-2018 20:43
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35971353)
The GFA has been ascribed varying attributes in this thread. The closest to reflecting reality is yours, I would say.

But then there is Brexit. The EU pretends to want to protect the GFA because, ultimately, of the risk of terrorism. It seems to me that the UK guvmin has bought that; either they know something about terrorism that the EU doesn’t, or it’s just gullible. Ireland is only interested in the economical aspect. NThe EU is interested in carving Ulster away from the UK.

In such circumstances, we should not fall for the trick that keeps us uncompetitive, shackled to the EU and with the Irish smugly waving to fingers and a shelali at us.

I am happy for an open border with Ireland as you describe because, agai, it would scare the shits out of the legalistic EU about good going into Ireland. A useful starting point that could change later.
Do you feel that there's much of an appetite for reunification in Ireland? Sure, Sinn Fein wants it but noone else does. Fine Gael is probably the most UK friendly party in Ireland and they are currently the ruling party in the Oireachtas. Ireland revised their claim to the North in Nineteenth Amendment referendum with a 94% 'yes' vote.

Northern Ireland is to be honest a political and economic basket case. 25% is Northern Irelands income is subsidies from Westminster to the tune of €11bn a year. Ireland doesn't want it on its' books, they are doing well but not that well. To be honest, reunification from an economic point of view would be better for the UK!

Here are nice articles found while reading up for my reply;

Study on the costs of reunification - https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...y-15-1.3629748
How reunification could happen - https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...-reunification
Leo Varadkar opposed to reunification referendum - https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-35932315.html
Opinion piece on why reunification will not happen - https://reaction.life/brexit-no-silv...reunification/

Sephiroth 18-11-2018 21:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35971373)
Do you feel that there's much of an appetite for reunification in Ireland? Sure, Sinn Fein wants it but noone else does. Fine Gael is probably the most UK friendly party in Ireland and they are currently the ruling party in the Oireachtas. Ireland revised their claim to the North in Nineteenth Amendment referendum with a 94% 'yes' vote.

Northern Ireland is to be honest a political and economic basket case. 25% is Northern Irelands income is subsidies from Westminster to the tune of €11bn a year. Ireland doesn't want it on its' books, they are doing well but not that well. To be honest, reunification from an economic point of view would be better for the UK!

Here are nice articles found while reading up for my reply;

Study on the costs of reunification - https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...y-15-1.3629748
How reunification could happen - https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...-reunification
Leo Varadkar opposed to reunification referendum - https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-35932315.html
Opinion piece on why reunification will not happen - https://reaction.life/brexit-no-silv...reunification/
I visit Ulster at least twice a year. As you say, the majority don't want to unify with the Republic. A religious divide as we all know.

Your analysis of the Fine Gael position may well be correct. But a pressure to unify isn't an allegation that I'm making. By me saying that the 'EU wants to carve Ulster away from the UK', I mean that they want to force the UK into unpalatable constitutional arrangements; just because they are nasty. TM seems not to have fully averted that because the Backstop includes a deeper arrangement for Ulster alone, which is the carve up to which I am referring.

Hugh 18-11-2018 21:36
Re: Brexit
 
I am sure that the inhabitants of the 3 counties of Ulster that are in the Republic may disagree with you.

1andrew1 19-11-2018 00:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35971359)
Professor David Andress has a new book out (Cultural Dementia), and I thought one of his lines summed up the ERG (Jacob Rees-Mogg, aka "Lord Snooty" et al), even though he wasn’t specifically talking about them.
I think Jacob Rees-Mogg is more influenced by his father's writings including the Sovereign Individual. And to his credit, his father predicted Bitcoin 10 years before it happened.

Quote:
The book also foresaw a backlash against the footloose, cosmopolitan elites that digital technology would help create. The economy’s “losers”, as Rees-Mogg and Davidson called them, who “do not excel in problem-solving or possess globally marketable skills”, would turn to nationalism and bitter nostalgia. They would “seek to thwart the movement of capital and people across borders”.
Quote:
In August, Alastair Campbell, Blair’s former right-hand man and a prominent remainer, wrote about The Sovereign Individual at length on his blog. He called it “the most important book you have never heard of”. “After reading it,” he intriguingly claimed, “it is easy to see” why Jacob “so loves Brexit, and the chaos and disorder, and opportunities for disaster capitalism and super-elitism, that it may provide.”
https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...s-brexit-plans

In Brexit news, Barnier is suggesting that the EU allows the UK an extension to the transition period to allow time for the trade deal to be negotiated.
Quote:
Meanwhile, amid reports of an extended transition period, Sky News understands that when Michel Barnier met ambassadors from the remaining 27 this weekend, he proposed an extension to the two-year transition to 2022.
Sky's Europe correspondent says: "None of the 27 objected. The 2022 date will now be put to the UK to see how they react."
https://news.sky.com/story/embattled...tback-11557629

Dave42 19-11-2018 00:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35971376)
I think Jacob Rees-Mogg is more influenced by his father's writings including the Sovereign Individual. And to his credit, his father predicted Bitcoin 10 years before it happened.





https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...s-brexit-plans

In Brexit news, Barnier is suggesting that the EU allows the UK an extension to the transition period to allow time for the trade deal to be negotiated.

https://news.sky.com/story/embattled...tback-11557629
but they are bullying us and don't want a deal ;)

ianch99 19-11-2018 07:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35971376)
I think Jacob Rees-Mogg is more influenced by his father's writings including the Sovereign Individual. And to his credit, his father predicted Bitcoin 10 years before it happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...s-brexit-plans

In Brexit news, Barnier is suggesting that the EU allows the UK an extension to the transition period to allow time for the trade deal to be negotiated.

https://news.sky.com/story/embattled...tback-11557629
Really interesting post, Andrew.

The most depressing part of all of this is that so many are convinced that the principal actors in Leave are doing all of this on behalf of those that have been most affected by the globalism and free market changes since Thatcher & Reagan. The nom-dom Media barons pumping out decades of lies about the EU and immigration, the list goes on.

When the truth is that these people, the elite who will not be impacted by Brexit no matter which way it goes and the political chancers driven by ego and ambition will be content to see significant damage to this country if it helps to achieve their aims.

Here is one such odious individual:

Crispin Odey

It’s been a good day for me, claims hedge fund tycoon Crispin Odey

Quote:
A Brexiteer hedge fund manager proclaimed a good day at the office last night as market fears that Britain could crash out of the EU without an agreement sent the pound tumbling.

Crispin Odey, the investment tycoon, said that mounting concern over the future of Theresa May’s fragile premiership had boosted his funds as shares in British banks, retailers and housebuilders fell sharply.

“I have had a good day,” he told The Times. “Bad days tend to be good days for us.” Mr Odey has been betting against the pound and stocks exposed to the British economy. Criticising Mrs May’s Brexit deal, he said that the prime minister “has given an O-level answer to an A-level question”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...exit-bloomberg

Quote:
Farage told Bloomberg his concessions were not aimed at moving the markets for anyone, and told MailOnline that he did not try to mislead people by conceding defeat. But speculating on Brexit has made at least one very rich Brexiteer that bit richer. Crispin Odey was one of the largest donors to leave, handing over just shy of £900,000 to the campaign.

On hearing the referendum result, Odey said: “I feel fantastic. It’s a fantastic decision by the electorate.” Odey had a special reason to feel “fantastic”. He’d bet on Brexit hitting the pound by “shorting” sterling and moving 65% of his fund into gold in anticipation. Odey’s fund made £220m in the space of just a few hours. As he said at the time: “I think I may be the winner.”
There are many like this obnoxious individual.

Maggy 19-11-2018 08:44
Re: Brexit
 
Meanwhile.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8639216.html

Quote:
Theresa May’s Brexit deal has been slammed by arch-leave MP Nadine Dorries – because it means the UK will be left without any Members of the European Parliament.

The Tory backbencher, who campaigned tirelessly to get the country out of Europe, said Ms May's deal would leave the UK without any influence in Europe.

“This is a very sad place to be,” she told Sky News. “But unfortunately, the future of the country and of our relationship with Europe is at stake. This deal gives us no voice, no votes, no MEPs, no commissioner.”

OLD BOY 19-11-2018 09:06
Re: Brexit
 
The case for leave is that we will once again be able to take key decisions that are for Britain's benefit. ianch's reference to Crispin Odey is completely irrelevant and just shows the contempt with which those on the far left have for anyone who makes money. The reduction in the value of the pound was not caused by this man, he simply predicted that this would happen in the short term. I could have done that. Even the remainers said that would happen. No doubt he will be anticipating a rise in the value of the pound when we have clarity on the future direction of the UK with the free trade deal no doubt that we will get from the EU.

Leaving the EU presents incredible opportunities for this country provided that we are not tied down by continuing EU obligations which, for example, hamper our ability to get new trade deals on terms that benefit us. This will encourage new wealth to this country, made possible by those same wealth creators and risk takers that ianch and his supporters detest so much.

Having considered TM's proposed deal with the EU very carefully, I have concluded that the backstop arrangements and the proposed common rulebook should be rejected. The backstop has the potential for locking us into an arrangement we will never get out of and over which the DUP will crash out of the current agreement with the Conservatives, and the common rulebook it seems will hamper our ability to secure new trade deals on the terms we believe will be best for Britain.

So unless those two issues can be satisfactorily resolved, I think the deal should be scrapped and we leave without a deal. The proposal to join temporarily into the EEA arrangements signed up to by Norway is a better way forward to give us that transitional breathing space.

---------- Post added at 09:06 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35971385)
Has she only just realised this, one wonders? :D

ianch99 19-11-2018 09:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35971387)
The case for leave is that we will once again be able to take key decisions that are for Britain's benefit. ianch's reference to Crispin Odey is completely irrelevant and just shows the contempt with which those on the far left have for anyone who makes money. The reduction in the value of the pound was not caused by this man, he simply predicted that this would happen in the short term. I could have done that. Even the remainers said that would happen. No doubt he will be anticipating a rise in the value of the pound when we have clarity on the future direction of the UK with the free trade deal no doubt that we will get from the EU.

Leaving the EU presents incredible opportunities for this country provided that we are not tied down by continuing EU obligations which, for example, hamper our ability to get new trade deals on terms that benefit us. This will encourage new wealth to this country, made possible by those same wealth creators and risk takers that ianch and his supporters detest so much.

Having considered TM's proposed deal with the EU very carefully, I have concluded that the backstop arrangements and the proposed common rulebook should be rejected. The backstop has the potential for locking us into an arrangement we will never get out of and over which the DUP will crash out of the current agreement with the Conservatives, and the common rulebook it seems will hamper our ability to secure new trade deals on the terms we believe will be best for Britain.

So unless those two issues can be satisfactorily resolved, I think the deal should be scrapped and we leave without a deal. The proposal to join temporarily into the EEA arrangements signed up to by Norway is a better way forward to give us that transitional breathing space.

---------- Post added at 09:06 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------



Has she only just realised this, one wonders? :D
Yet again you ignore the reality all around you. Your desperation in resorting to name calling as a response is just pathetic. If you think people who manipulate the country's finances for personal gain ar irrelevant then you are more divorced from reality than I imagined.

Just to be clear, I do not "detest" wealth creators and risk takers per se. The ones I detest are those who seek to gain personal wealth at the expense of the population they claim to help or represent.

The most disturbing aspect of your reply is your casual disregard and contempt for the other citizens of this country. Your willingness to plunge into the abyss of a no-deal Brexit betrays a naivety at best and a frightening level of denial at worse.

Carth 19-11-2018 10:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35971376)

In Brexit news, Barnier is suggesting that the EU allows the UK an extension to the transition period to allow time for the trade deal to be negotiated.
Does this mean a further 2 years of huffing & puffing over the N. Ireland issue, while we continue to pump money into the EU? :blah: :banghead:

I don't fancy another 2 years of this, we should just smile as we walk away :Yes:

ianch99 19-11-2018 10:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35971359)
Professor David Andress has a new book out (Cultural Dementia), and I thought one of his lines summed up the ERG (Jacob Rees-Mogg, aka "Lord Snooty" et al), even though he wasn’t specifically talking about them.
Peter Hitchens, a conservative author and journalist has a similar perspective to the above. He realises and is very honest about the decline of Britain's role in the world since Suez.

Here's a good recent article from him:

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...res-about.html

Quote:
For far too long we in this country have thought we were richer, more powerful and, in general, better than we actually are. Now we find out the hard truth, exposed in all its gloomy detail by the EU talks. Will we learn the necessary lesson, or will we prefer our precious illusions?
He also comments on Mrs May attempts to deal with the poison chalice she was given, and here, I totally agree with him:

Quote:
Say what you like about Theresa May, and I have. But in this matter she has borne herself with dignity and integrity, a quiet, unshowy, resolute and very English sort of dogged courage of the kind I was brought up to admire.
She has peered over the abyss and knows what is there. Nobody else would have done any better.

jonbxx 19-11-2018 10:51
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35971394)
Peter Hitchens, a conservative author and journalist has a similar perspective to the above. He realises and is very honest about the decline of Britain's role in the world since Suez.

Here's a good recent article from him:

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...res-about.html



He also comments on Mrs May attempts to deal with the poison chalice she was given, and here, I totally agree with him:
That was an interesting article and mirrors something I have been thinking about for a while - the end of the British Empire. Are we still going through the end or is what is happening now something new?

There are lots of theories on why the empire ended but they seem to revolve around economic stresses and local uprisings. You could say the Boer War or the partition of Ireland was the beginning of the end of empire but the real death throes were (in my opinion) the rise of a wealthy and more internationalist USA.

think we are still on the arc of the end of the British Empire. What the end state will be, who knows?

nomadking 19-11-2018 11:15
Re: Brexit
 
It's the EU that is obsessed on building an "empire".
Quote:
Mr Macron wants a more integrated EU, with a joint eurozone budget.
He also wants Germany's backing for a European Army, which he has said would reduce the bloc's dependence on the US, and a new tax on internet tech giants.

...
The French president acknowledged that unity could be "scary," and would mean nations pooling their funds and decision-making - but then asked: "Is it better to remain locked at a standstill?"
The French and German leaders met for talks after Mr Macron's speech, and were set to discuss migration, defence co-operation and tax structures for digital companies.
France and Germany are expected to unveil plans for a limited joint eurozone budget on Monday.
"pooling their funds and decision-making" of course means decisions made only by Germany and France.

Mr K 19-11-2018 12:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35971398)
It's the EU that is obsessed on building an "empire".
"pooling their funds and decision-making" of course means decisions made only by Germany and France.
Get used to it, with the proposed plan we'll be paying in and getting no say at all.

We need to rid ourselves of our paranoid xenophobia. Sometimes interests are mutual and acting together is more effective, particularly when dealing with the US, China etc. Little England will become an irrelevance.

nomadking 19-11-2018 12:29
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35971404)
Get used to it, with the proposed plan we'll be paying in and getting no say at all.

We need to rid ourselves of our paranoid xenophobia. Sometimes interests are mutual and acting together is more effective, particularly when dealing with the US, China etc. Little England will become an irrelevance.
But the EU isn't about mutual interests, only the interests of Germany and France.


Quote:
Future relation European Council Guidelines-April 2017
paragraph 20
"Any free trade agreement should be balanced', ambitious and wide-ranging
... A level playing field must be ensured, notably in terms of
competition and state aid, and in this regard encompass safeguards
against unfair competitive advantages through, inter alia, tax; social,
environmental and regulatory measures and practices. "
Everybody has to be hamstrung by the same policies that Germany and France insist upon. The draft agreement continues that.

Mick 19-11-2018 13:05
Re: Brexit
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35971406)
But the EU isn't about mutual interests, only the interests of Germany and France.


Everybody has to be hamstrung by the same policies that Germany and France insist upon. The draft agreement continues that.
This clip of Guy Verhoftstadt insisting the transfer of Sovereign powers of the Member States, is transferred to the EU Institutions.

This is total corruption of the corrupted EU. It's power and domination and the erosion of total democracy. The UK Voted to leave the EU - but that cannot be allowed to happen, so they are making it exceptionally difficult to leave, it's a total sabotage of the leave process, creating a bullshit excuse with the Irish Border problem. But just look at this pathetic excuse for a man, Guy Verhofstadt.... this is the guy who is the European Parliament's representative in the Brexit negotiations.



Not a great fan of Memes but this one seems to be on par as to what the EU stands for....

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1542632178

Mr K 19-11-2018 13:13
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35971406)
But the EU isn't about mutual interests, only the interests of Germany and France.
Don't notice any other country desperate to leave, quite the opposite there are 5 waiting to join....

We arent the only ones to have concerns, but maybe others see reform of the EU as the way forward, not just running away into financial ruin/obscurity.

Mick 19-11-2018 13:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35971409)
Don't notice any other country desperate to leave, quite the opposite there are 5 waiting to join....

We arent the only ones to have concerns, but maybe others see reform of the EU as the way forward, not just running away into financial ruin/obscurity.
Then UK Prime Minister in 2016, David Cameron, went to the EU to ask for reforms - he was denied and went away with virtually nothing on the table, they were insistent on NO change - they will not change, only for the worse - they want power and they will stop at nothing to get what they want, totally corruption at the highest of levels and now they want an army, something Nick Clegg said was a total fantasy.

Mr K 19-11-2018 13:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971408)
Oh dear that sums up the mentality of Brexiteers, they think it's 80 years ago and they're in a episode of Dads Army !

If anything the rise of nationalism and division is more likely to bring those days back. Churchill was one of the champions of the EU post WW2, so Western Europe would come together. He made a speech in 1946 calling for a United States of Europe ! He'd be a Remainer for sure.

Mick 19-11-2018 13:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35971412)
Oh dear that sums up the mentality of Brexiteers, they think it's 80 years ago and they're in a episode of Dads Army !

If anything the rise of nationalism and division is more likely to bring those days back. Churchill was one of the champions of the EU post WW2, so Western Europe would come together. He made a speech in 1946 calling for a United States of Europe ! He'd be a Remainer for sure.
Absolute bollocks - The EU did not exist when Churchill was alive.

And I will not tell you again about making provocative posts about other members mentality, do not question/insult mine again or your membership will be terminated!

He was a believer in Democracy and would have fulfilled the democratic decision taken on June 23rd 2016, without delay, that's for certain.

Dave42 19-11-2018 13:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971413)
Absolute bollocks - The EU did not exist when Churchill was alive.

And I will not tell you again about making provocative posts about other members mentality, do not question/insult mine again or your membership will be terminated!

He was a believer in Democracy and would have fulfilled the democratic decision taken on June 23rd 2016, without delay, that's for certain.
true but he did do a speech calling for a united states of Europe Mick

http://www.churchill-society-london..../astonish.html

pip08456 19-11-2018 13:46
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35971412)
Oh dear that sums up the mentality of Brexiteers, they think it's 80 years ago and they're in a episode of Dads Army !

If anything the rise of nationalism and division is more likely to bring those days back. Churchill was one of the champions of the EU post WW2, so Western Europe would come together. He made a speech in 1946 calling for a United States of Europe ! He'd be a Remainer for sure.
This speaech has frequently been brought up by remainers in a bid to prove that even Churchill avocated for Great Britain to be a part of the United States of Europe. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Conveniently there is never a link to the speech nor any quote from it other than what Mr K has posted.

So in the interests of clarity here is the most relevant quote and a link to the full speech. Make of it what you will.

Quote:
Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia - for then indeed all would be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine.
http://www.churchill-society-london..../astonish.html

Mr K 19-11-2018 13:50
Re: Brexit
 
However the Great Britain of today isn't the mighty World power of 1945. We need friends and allies more now than ever before. You got to question why the Russians were so happy about the Brexit vote.

Dave42 19-11-2018 13:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35971417)
This speaech has frequently been brought up by remainers in a bid to prove that even Churchill avocated for Great Britain to be a part of the United States of Europe. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Conveniently there is never a link to the speech nor any quote from it other than what Mr K has posted.

So in the interests of clarity here is the most relevant quote and a link to the full speech. Make of it what you will.



http://www.churchill-society-london..../astonish.html
If we are to form the United States of Europe or whatever name or form it may take, we must begin now.

If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.

there just 2 quotes in speech about united states of Europe so wrong again Pip im affraid

pip08456 19-11-2018 14:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35971419)
If we are to form the United States of Europe or whatever name or form it may take, we must begin now.

If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.

there just 2 quotes in speech about united states of Europe so wrong again Pip im affraid
What you mean is that there are only 2 quotes that fit your agenda.

Dave42 19-11-2018 14:13
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35971421)
What you mean is that there are only 2 quotes that fit your agenda.
nope just proving he mentioned united states of Europe that's all and for the record im totally against one

ianch99 19-11-2018 15:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35971396)
That was an interesting article and mirrors something I have been thinking about for a while - the end of the British Empire. Are we still going through the end or is what is happening now something new?

There are lots of theories on why the empire ended but they seem to revolve around economic stresses and local uprisings. You could say the Boer War or the partition of Ireland was the beginning of the end of empire but the real death throes were (in my opinion) the rise of a wealthy and more internationalist USA.

think we are still on the arc of the end of the British Empire. What the end state will be, who knows?
This film, which I am half way through, is revealing and disturbing:

The Spider's Web: Britain's Second Empire

Quote:
The Spider's Web: Britain's Second Empire is a documentary released in Mexico during May 2017 which details the transformation of the UK as a colonial super power to a global financial power. It suggests that the City of London Corporation and its banks have done tremendous damage to the world economy since the 1960s and that up to half of all offshore wealth (globally) is hidden in one of many British offshore jurisdictions. With contributions from leading experts, academics, former insiders and campaigners for social justice, the film claims to highlight how in the world of international finance, corruption and secrecy have prevailed over regulation and transparency, and the UK is right at the heart of this.
Film review: The Spider’s Web – Britain’s Second Empire

Quote:
The Spider’s Web offers unique insight into the British Empire, both past and present, and its colonies and far flung outposts. This is a story which, if known at all, is often understood through a rose tinted view of what that British Empire actually represented. The Spider’s Web details how the former Empire was transformed after World War 2 into a new financial empire of offshore tax havens and secrecy jurisdictions.
Watch it if you can .. I think it may be on Amazon if you have access to this.

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:03 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971408)
Not a great fan of Memes but this one seems to be on par as to what the EU stands for....

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1542632178
Gross misrepresentation of why the EU was formed and what it strives for. Comparing (again) the EU with Nazi Germany show you have totally lost the plot.

nomadking 19-11-2018 15:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35971409)
Don't notice any other country desperate to leave, quite the opposite there are 5 waiting to join....

We arent the only ones to have concerns, but maybe others see reform of the EU as the way forward, not just running away into financial ruin/obscurity.
Only because they want the free money that comes with it, and freedom of movement. Even more Turkish, Ukrainian, Albanian, etc criminals and gangsters and general dross waiting to come to the EU.


Eg There was a TV programme where a Czech Roma couple had arrived in Rotherham with TWENTY-TWO of their children and grandchildren. Only one of them had a job. So they, along with an estimated 6,000 other Czech Roma just in Rotherham had to be housed, funded with benefits etc.

ianch99 19-11-2018 15:19
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971413)
Absolute bollocks - The EU did not exist when Churchill was alive.
Which bit is bollocks"? Nice turn of phrase by the way, classy ..

On September 19, 1946, Sir Winston Churchill delivered his famous speech in Zurich calling for the creation of “a United States of Europe”:



Here's the transcript:

http://www.goldmercury.org/news-and-...tes-of-europe/

Quote:
Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as by a miracle transform the whole scene and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.

OLD BOY 19-11-2018 15:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35971390)
Yet again you ignore the reality all around you. Your desperation in resorting to name calling as a response is just pathetic. If you think people who manipulate the country's finances for personal gain ar irrelevant then you are more divorced from reality than I imagined.

Just to be clear, I do not "detest" wealth creators and risk takers per se. The ones I detest are those who seek to gain personal wealth at the expense of the population they claim to help or represent.

The most disturbing aspect of your reply is your casual disregard and contempt for the other citizens of this country. Your willingness to plunge into the abyss of a no-deal Brexit betrays a naivety at best and a frightening level of denial at worse.
Completely wrong - again! Incidentally, I was not 'name calling' - you must have invented that one.

If you seriously believe that wealth creators are not making money to make themselves rich, I don't know what planet you are on. The point is, the money they make comes into the country, and this is good for all of us.

Something you might like to consider. Our exports to the EU have reduced from 57% over a decade ago to 44% now. Additionally, according to the IMF, 90% of global growth in the next five years will occur outside of Europe.

Codification, bureaucracy and incompetence in the EU is stifling business. The reality is that a good future for the UK lies outside of the EU, and if we actually manage to detach ourselves from the EU's stranglehold over us, we will go from strength to strength.

I want this country to prosper in a way that also benefits the poorer sector of our society and to free ourselves of that collosal debt that has been accrued while we have been bringing down the deficit. In what way is that 'a casual disregard and contempt for the other citizens of this country'? That sounds to me like a Corbyn rant.

---------- Post added at 15:22 ---------- Previous post was at 15:20 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35971437)
Which bit is bollocks"? Nice turn of phrase by the way, classy ..

On September 19, 1946, Sir Winston Churchill delivered his famous speech in Zurich calling for the creation of “a United States of Europe”:
Unfortunately, this 'United States of Europe' will be ruled by bureaucrats. Something I doubt very much Churchill envisaged.

ianch99 19-11-2018 15:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35971438)
Completely wrong - again! Incidentally, I was not 'name calling' - you must have invented that one.

If you seriously believe that wealth creators are not making money to make themselves rich, I don't know what planet you are on. The point is, the money they make comes into the country, and this is good for all of us.

Something you might like to consider. Our exports to the EU have reduced from 57% over a decade ago to 44% now. Additionally, according to the IMF, 90% of global growth in the next five years will occur outside of Europe.

Codification, bureaucracy and incompetence in the EU is stifling business. The reality is that a good future for the UK lies outside of the EU, and if we actually manage to detach ourselves from the EU's stranglehold over us, we will go from strength to strength.

I want this country to prosper in a way that also benefits the poorer sector of our society and to free ourselves of that collosal debt that has been accrued while we have been bringing down the deficit. In what way is that 'a casual disregard and contempt for the other citizens of this country'? That sounds to me like a Corbyn rant
You seem be unable to comprehend the difference between Benevolent Capitalism and Disaster Capitalism. Your binary view of what is and is not possible is depressing but not unsurprising.

You have been drinking too much of the free marketeers cool-aid. Trickle Down Economics has long since been disproven yet you clearly still believe the cliche. The free market has no morality. The people I refer to will aim to profit from the misfortunes of this country. They already have done so and will continue to do so unless we, the host on which they feed, say "enough is enough".

You also end by the tired "he sounds like Corbyn" jibe even though I have repeated many many times I cannot stand the man. More imagination is needed ..

OLD BOY 19-11-2018 15:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35971440)
You seem be unable to comprehend the difference between Benevolent Capitalism and Disaster Capitalism. Your binary view of what is and is not possible is depressing but not unsurprising.

You have been drinking too much of the free marketeers cool-aid. Trickle Down Economics has long since been disproven yet you clearly still believe the cliche. The free market has no morality. The people I refer to will aim to profit from the misfortunes of this country. They already have done so and will continue to do so unless we, the host on which they feed, say "enough is enough".

You also end by the tired "he sounds like Corbyn" jibe even though I have repeated many many times I cannot stand the man. More imagination is needed ..
So you are accusing this man of 'disaster capitalism'.

OK, would you mind telling me in what way this profit he's made affects the poor people of this country? He's made money and he pays tax on that. Nothing illegal has been done and we benefit by way of the tax revenue that results.

So if you actually banned this practice, how do you envisage that the poor would benefit?

techguyone 19-11-2018 16:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35971437)
Which bit is bollocks"? Nice turn of phrase by the way, classy ..

On September 19, 1946, Sir Winston Churchill delivered his famous speech in Zurich calling for the creation of “a United States of Europe”:



Here's the transcript:

http://www.goldmercury.org/news-and-...tes-of-europe/
That was a response to WW2 with the idea being a united Europe would be less inclined to have perpetual wars...

NATO pretty much stopped that.

Mick 19-11-2018 16:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35971433)
This film, which I am half way through, is revealing and disturbing:

The Spider's Web: Britain's Second Empire



Film review: The Spider’s Web – Britain’s Second Empire



Watch it if you can .. I think it may be on Amazon if you have access to this.

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:03 ----------



Gross misrepresentation of why the EU was formed and what it strives for. Comparing (again) the EU with Nazi Germany show you have totally lost the plot.
No plot lost here and it is a true representation, nothing you say changes that and if you also question/insult my mental state again, your account will also be subject to termination. I have had enough!

ianch99 19-11-2018 16:29
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35971443)
That was a response to WW2 with the idea being a united Europe would be less inclined to have perpetual wars...

NATO pretty much stopped that.
Disagree. Churchill was no idiot. If he felt that a military alliance would have sufficed, that is what he would have advocated.

jfman 19-11-2018 17:16
Re: Brexit
 
Another day closer to our remain PM and remain Parliament ignoring the advisory referendum that if held today may produce a different result anyway.

Hugh 19-11-2018 17:34
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971454)
Another day closer to our remain PM and remain Parliament ignoring the advisory referendum that if held today may produce a different result anyway.
Remember, the reason that it was advisory was that we are a Representative Democracy, not a Direct Democracy.

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/11/4.png

handyman 19-11-2018 17:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971445)
No plot lost here and it is a true representation, nothing you say changes that and if you also question/insult my mental state again, your account will also be subject to termination. I have had enough!
Rarely come to the forum and this is a fine example of why I stay away. :rolleyes:

Wielding your tiny amount of 'power' threatening to ban members who disagree with you so that you can try to push your inaccurate agenda.

Comparing the EU to the Nazi's is just about as wrong as it gets and a perfect example of why so many people were whipped up to vote on a pack of lies.

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/11/5.png

jfman 19-11-2018 18:12
Re: Brexit
 
I’d actually forgotten something that I’ve just realised will be the pièce de résistance.

Our remain Chancellor, Philip Hammond, delivering his emergency Budget statement. Cuts, cuts and more cuts.

I might get the popcorn in specially for the occasion. This will give the Labour Party clear cover to call for a second referendum.

Angua 19-11-2018 18:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971457)
I’d actually forgotten something that I’ve just realised will be the pièce de résistance.

Our remain Chancellor, Philip Hammond, delivering his emergency Budget statement. Cuts, cuts and more cuts.

I might get the popcorn in specially for the occasion. This will give the Labour Party clear cover to call for a second referendum.
With Brexiteer Corbyn in charge I would not hold my breath. :erm: You could choke on your popcorn sadly.

He is the only opposition leader to walk away from open goal opportunities.

handyman 19-11-2018 18:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35971459)
With Brexiteer Corbyn in charge I would not hold my breath. :erm: You could choke on your popcorn sadly.
He could have compromised some of his more extreme views and made hay in this situation.

jfman 19-11-2018 18:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35971459)
With Brexiteer Corbyn in charge I would not hold my breath. :erm: You could choke on your popcorn sadly.

He is the only opposition leader to walk away from open goal opportunities.
He can’t control his MPs though.

Backing austerity 2 over a 2nd referendum would finish him. May is going anyway, and a half decent front bench Conservative (I know, I know) would annihilate his socialist dream in the polls.

OLD BOY 19-11-2018 18:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 35971461)
He could have compromised some of his more extreme views and made hay in this situation.
Nah! That would have upset Momentum.:D

Ramrod 19-11-2018 18:53
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Those behind May are the same people who brooked no opposition by pushing through the last bombing of Syria while Parliament was in recess, and then invented spurious arguments about constitutional probity. They are the same people who have been feeding madder and madder fear lies to a willing media set over the last two years, while bankrolling new pro-EU Parties across the board. Among their number are Soros, Macron, the Bourses, globalist business, central banks, multinational banks, international news media, intelligence agencies and the oil kings. Together, they have convinced both the City, the Financial Times and senior spokespeople among the CBI that they shall be part of the Promised Land flowing with silk and money.

It looks increasingly likely that these are the people giving Theresa May her air of invincibiliy, and the Tory Whips everything they need to have confidence in the passage of an EU/UK deal.
link

jfman 19-11-2018 19:06
Re: Brexit
 
There’s definitely dark forces afoot. If I’m certain of one thing it’s that Brexit won’t mean Brexit.

Ramrod 19-11-2018 19:09
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Over the last few weeks, she has worked among and with senior EU, Whitehall, MI5 and NATO officials. One by one, Raab, the DUP and the Cabinet have been starved of information and presented with sudden leaps. Ministers have resigned, their replacements given only honorary power, and all talk of renegotiating anything with the EU has been declared off-message. Alone in Brussels, Olly Robbins is mapping out a detailed deconstruction of British sovereignty with zero accountability. Everyone but the members of this group – which is determined that, come what may, the EU must not fail, that the EU shall have its army, and that NATO will tighten its grip on Russian aims – has been frozen out.

Damien 19-11-2018 19:19
Re: Brexit
 
The ERG still don't seem to have the numbers yet. Odd they seemed so confident.

Dave42 19-11-2018 19:59
Re: Brexit
 
according to Robert Peston the deal with tories and DUP close to being ripped up general election more likely

https://twitter.com/Peston

jfman 19-11-2018 20:09
Re: Brexit
 
And we edge closer to the sum total of the Nationalist/Republican votes outnumbering the Unionist/Loyalist votes. That’d be fun.

denphone 19-11-2018 20:11
Re: Brexit
 
What complete and utter chaos but if we have had 2 years of it then a few months more will make any difference...

Dave42 19-11-2018 20:15
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35971484)
What complete and utter chaos but if we have had 2 years of it then a few months more will make any difference...
a leave vote was always gonna be chaos as both main parties split very bad Den and no plan for leave at all

denphone 19-11-2018 20:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35971487)
a leave vote was always gonna be chaos as both main parties split very bad Den and no plan for leave at all
Well if they can't even organise a piss up in a brewery then there ain't much hope of warring politicians ever coming up with a cohesive well thought out plan.

Mick 19-11-2018 20:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 35971456)
Rarely come to the forum and this is a fine example of why I stay away. :rolleyes:

Wielding your tiny amount of 'power' threatening to ban members who disagree with you so that you can try to push your inaccurate agenda.

Comparing the EU to the Nazi's is just about as wrong as it gets and a perfect example of why so many people were whipped up to vote on a pack of lies.
Yawn - I don't really care why you stay away Mark and if you think you can come back and and start mouthing off at me, you can think again.

Don't interfere in matters which do not concern you.

Finally - I am not wrong - you got Guy Verhoftstadt stood there in the EU Parliament demanding more Sovereign power from the EU Member States and that power being taken and put back in the EU institutions, you got the EU wanting an army - if this not more Hitler/Nazi like, I don't know what is. So the meme I posted earlier is actually fairly accurate. So enough of your silly big font "wrong wrong wrong memes", it has absolutely no effect on me.

1andrew1 19-11-2018 20:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35971491)
Well if they can't even organise a piss up in a brewery then there ain't much hope of warring politicians ever coming up with a cohesive well thought out plan.
To give Nigel Farage due credit, I don't doubt he could organise a mighty fine piss-up in a brewery. But he wouldn't be much good the next morning when it came to negotiations with the EU. ;)

---------- Post added at 20:57 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 35971461)
He could have compromised some of his more extreme views and made hay in this situation.
That would have been the sensible thing to do but JC must be the worst leader of the big 2.5 political parties for a long time. ;)

Sephiroth 19-11-2018 20:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35971494)
To give Nigel Farage due credit, I don't doubt he could organise a mighty fine piss-up in a brewery. But he wouldn't be much good the next morning when it came to negotiations with the EU.

<SNIP>
Got anything to back the assertion up that Farage wouldn't be a decent Brexit negotiator?

jfman 19-11-2018 21:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35971496)
Got anything to back the assertion up that Farage wouldn't be a decent Brexit negotiator?
He’s never been Prime Minister of Australia.

Mr K 19-11-2018 21:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35971496)
Got anything to back the assertion up that Farage wouldn't be a decent Brexit negotiator?
He's hardly gone down well in the EU parliament when he occasionally turned up to mouth off insults. How to win friends and influence, not ! He's been an embarrassment as a representative of the UK.

Never mind, he's going to quote happily clam his massive EU pension which we'll be paying for :rolleyes:

jfman 19-11-2018 21:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35971496)
Got anything to back the assertion up that Farage wouldn't be a decent Brexit negotiator?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971493)
Yawn - I don't really care why you stay away Mark and if you think you can come back and and start mouthing off at me, you can think again.

Don't interfere in matters which do not concern you.

Finally - I am not wrong - you got Guy Verhoftstadt stood there in the EU Parliament demanding more Sovereign power from the EU Member States and that power being taken and put back in the EU institutions, you got the EU wanting an army - if this not more Hitler/Nazi like, I don't know what is. So the meme I posted earlier is actually fairly accurate. So enough of your silly big font "wrong wrong wrong memes", it has absolutely no effect on me.
I’m not entirely convinced that given UK contributions, in terms of soldiers, assets and resources to NATO it’s entirely a bad idea for the EU Member States to organise better and contribute more if they agree to do so.

It was “our boys” over in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq after all.

The idea that somehow that equates to Nazism is fundamentally flawed.

Mick 19-11-2018 21:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971502)
I’m not entirely convinced that given UK contributions, in terms of soldiers, assets and resources to NATO it’s entirely a bad idea for the EU Member States to organise better and contribute more if they agree to do so.

It was “our boys” over in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq after all.

The idea that somehow that equates to Nazism is fundamentally flawed.
I am not talking about NATO - the EU wants an army separate to NATO because they want a United States of Europe - no thank you. :sick:

pip08456 19-11-2018 21:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971502)
I’m not entirely convinced that given UK contributions, in terms of soldiers, assets and resources to NATO it’s entirely a bad idea for the EU Member States to organise better and contribute more if they agree to do so.

It was “our boys” over in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq after all.

The idea that somehow that equates to Nazism is fundamentally flawed.
The EU are not talking about organising and contributing more to NATO though. They are referring to a standing European army separate from NATO.

handyman 19-11-2018 21:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971493)
Yawn - I don't really care why you stay away Mark and if you think you can come back and and start mouthing off at me, you can think again.
I never left, just like the UK will never leave the EU. And abusing your position as a mod on a forum is super big of you, you tiny little man. you're a Euclidean point..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971493)
Don't interfere in matters which do not concern you.
The prosperity and survival of this country concerns me deeply. Just because you're a Brexit voting, EU hating Alt-right individual does not put you on the right side of the argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971493)
Finally - I am not wrong - you got Guy Verhoftstadt stood there in the EU Parliament demanding more Sovereign power from the EU Member States and that power being taken and put back in the EU institutions, you got the EU wanting an army - if this not more Hitler/Nazi like, I don't know what is. So the meme I posted earlier is actually fairly accurate. So enough of your silly big font "wrong wrong wrong memes", it has absolutely no effect on me.
None of what you have said adds anything to your argument and only makes your position look feeble and weak. Comparing the EU to a party that exterminated 6 million Jews, I ask you..

The EU aims to have countries work together to be stronger together.

Brexiteers think that the UK is suddenly going to be an Empire again. FFs we are not even the biggest power in Europe but at least we had a respected seat at the table.

Mick 19-11-2018 21:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35971501)
He's hardly gone down well in the EU parliament when he occasionally turned up to mouth off insults. How to win friends and influence, not ! He's been an embarrassment as a representative of the UK.

Never mind, he's going to quote happily clam his massive EU pension which we'll be paying for :rolleyes:
And Drunken Juncker stumbling about, pissed as a fart is not embarrassing for the EU ?

Ok then.... :rolleyes:

jfman 19-11-2018 21:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971506)
I am not talking about NATO - the EU wants an army seperate to NATO because they want a United States of Europe - no thank you. :sick:
The membership of both organisations is virtually one and the same. An EU force could never practically act without NATO approval and vice versa.

There’s many arguments against “ever closer union” but EU Member States choosing to pool common resource, training and military assets can only be to the benefit of NATO operations.

There’s not a single territory the EU has a border with it can realistically invade. It’d only enhance their ability to contribute to NATO, something that President Trump has openly called upon everyone else to do.

However I respect your right to a different opinion on the matter, and I’m sure we’d both agree it’s further diverging from the main topic.

1andrew1 19-11-2018 21:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971502)
The idea that somehow that equates to Nazism is fundamentally flawed.
For the millions who perished in the concentration camps of the Nazis it's utterly reprehensible to put the two in the same bracket. :td:

Hom3r 19-11-2018 21:29
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35971337)
Why pain? I quite like the choice between TM's deal and a no deal. That'll separate the men from the boys in the House of Commons! Whoops, sorry, ladies. :erm:

---------- Post added at 15:53 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------



I hope not, Hom3r, because as a spoilt paper, your vote will not be counted. If everyone did that, the remainers would win by default.

Anyway, hopefully it will not come to that.

If you wrote it inside the box it will count.

In the recent election someone (Even thought they know who voted for who) drew inside the box a "Gentlemans sausage", it was counted as it was within the box.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-penis-8277990

jfman 19-11-2018 21:30
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35971511)
The EU are not talking about organising and contributing more to NATO though. They are referring to a standing European army separate from NATO.
Which will be far better resources to respond with NATO/US led operations.

Do people seriously think it’ll invade anyone? The main achievement it’ll have is reducing 16-24 unemployment by a fraction of one per cent.

A standing EU army, even at 50 000, would lack the technology and support required to carry out significant operations anywhere in the world without US agreement.

Mick 19-11-2018 21:35
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 35971514)
I never left, just like the UK will never leave the EU. And abusing your position as a mod on a forum is super big of you, you tiny little man. you're a Euclidean point..
We will be leaving the EU - And you don't visit often enough to know I am not actually a mod - I am one of the owners, so DO NOT come on here and abuse me on my own goddamn property with pathetic childish insults or you will be actually leaving for sure. :dozey:

Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman
The prosperity and survival of this country concerns me deeply. Just because you're a Brexit voting, EU hating Alt-right individual does not put you on the right side of the argument.
I am not Alt-Right thanks, yet another incorrect assumption of a Brexiteer but yawn yawn yawn - save it, heard all this BS before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman
None of what you have said adds anything to your argument and only makes your position look feeble and weak. Comparing the EU to a party that exterminated 6 million Jews, I ask you..
And I have told you, the EU are behaving Hitler like with their power demands. Erosion of Democracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman
The EU aims to have countries work together to be stronger together.
LOL - absolute rubbish, keep telling yourself this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman
Brexiteers think that the UK is suddenly going to be an Empire again. FFs we are not even the biggest power in Europe but at least we had a respected seat at the table.
This has nothing to do with wanting the UK to be an empire again, my you have been brainwashed and totally got everything wrong as to why people voted to leave.

Hom3r 19-11-2018 21:41
Re: Brexit
 
I thought the JC wants us to be tied in with the EU trade markets?

I have been a live long Labour vote, but in the unlikely event of a General Election I will seriously consider voting Tory.

But there in lies my dilemma, my Tory MP isn't pro-same sex relationships, and as you may know my niece came out at 16.

So can I honestly vote for him?

Gavin78 19-11-2018 21:47
Re: Brexit
 
I can see we are coming to an end with the EU all the hardcore remain voters are making a final stand.

Talking of Juncker did anyone see the video of him ready to make a speech with the wrong colour shoes on each foot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ukxe65gXE

He talks the UK down but can't even dress himself

Mr K 19-11-2018 21:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971515)
And Drunken Juncker stumbling about, pissed as a fart is not embarrassing for the EU ?

Ok then.... :rolleyes:
I was replying to the question as to why Farage wouldn't be the best negotiatior for the country Mick :rolleyes:
As usual you try to change the subject....

handyman 19-11-2018 21:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35971524)
Talking of Juncker did anyone see the video of him ready to make a speech with the wrong colour shoes on each foot?
TBF I have done this as I have 4 pairs of the same shoe in slightly differing colours. Rushing out of the house and not paying enough attention. then, of course, it's not the type of thing you check.

Mr K 19-11-2018 21:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 35971526)
TBF I have done this as I have 4 pairs of the same shoe in slightly differing colours. Rushing out of the house and not paying enough attention. then, of course, it's not the type of thing you check.
Tricky at this time of year when getting dressed as in the dark.. Then daylight comes and you're at work :D

jfman 19-11-2018 21:54
Re: Brexit
 
It doesn’t matter what’s on his feet when he’s got us by the balls.

No deal, bad deal or remain there’s only one winner in these negotiations.

Mr K 19-11-2018 21:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971529)
It doesn’t matter what’s on his feet when he’s got us by the balls.

No deal, bad deal or remain there’s only one winner in these negotiations.
Don't think there's any winners. Just some (unfortunately us) will lose a lot more than others.

Mick 19-11-2018 22:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35971524)
I can see we are coming to an end with the EU all the hardcore remain voters are making a final stand.

Talking of Juncker did anyone see the video of him ready to make a speech with the wrong colour shoes on each foot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ukxe65gXE

He talks the UK down but can't even dress himself
LOL - he looked like he was stumbling again too, a walking EU embarrassment.

Here was another video of him stumbling earlier this year...

Damien 19-11-2018 22:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35971522)
I thought the JC wants us to be tied in with the EU trade markets?
Corbyn supports sitting on the fence and giving vague answers to anything about the EU. He is clearly a Eurosceptic and always has been. Even now he is avoiding backing a second referendum. I wouldn't be surprised if he voted Leave.

handyman 19-11-2018 22:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971521)
We will be leaving the EU - And you don't visit often enough to know I am not actually a mod - I am one of the owners, so DO NOT come on here and abuse me on my own goddamn property with pathetic childish insults or you will be actually leaving for sure. :dozey:
Did not realise you owned the internets. And just because I'm not Active ON the forum, does not mean I don't know anything about the forum. People are able to discuss things in other ways.

FYI we ARE the EU, which is why it's all very bizarre that we want to leave a group we have input into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971521)
I am not Alt-Right thanks, yet another incorrect assumption of a Brexiteer but yawn yawn yawn - save it, heard all this BS before.
I'm not a brexiteer. I live in the real world where having a view for or against the EU does not make a real difference. Being in the EU is more beneficial for our country even if people have some reservations about how the EU is organised. We certainly are not going to have an influence on its future from the outside. Keep your enemies closer and all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971521)
And I have told you, the EU are behaving Hitler like with their power demands. Erosion of Democracy.
We ARE the EU.

Mr K 19-11-2018 22:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971531)
LOL - he looked like he was stumbling again too, a walking EU embarrassment.

Here was another video of him stumbling earlier this year...
Actually he blames sciatica, which causes numbness in the legs, believe me I know ! If so then he's owed a lot of apologies. Whatever, it's a bit irrelevant and desperate to target hate at an individual given the enormity of Brexit. Reminds me of a certain Presidents tactics....

Mick 19-11-2018 22:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35971532)
Corbyn supports sitting on the fence and giving vague answers to anything about the EU. He is clearly a Eurosceptic and always has been. Even now he is avoiding backing a second referendum. I wouldn't be surprised if he voted Leave.
I think he is a Remainer - But because he knows half of his voting base are leavers up North, he upsets them, he won't get in to No. 10 and these are his true ambitions.

handyman 19-11-2018 22:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35971531)
LOL - he looked like he was stumbling again too, a walking EU embarrassment.

Here was another video of him stumbling earlier this year...
Happy to make fun out of someone having difficulty walking due to back pain. Big Big man :rolleyes:


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