Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd like to know where they got there customer research from lol

To summarise, our customer research shows that lots of people would be keen to see advertisements that are relevant to their interests, we are planning to trial the service shortly, BT customers may be invited to participate in the trial (via a webpage) but the choice as to whether or not they participate is entirely theirs.

must have been phorm employees they researched as no one in there right mind wants there time intterupted with pointless drivel even if you have been searching for it a certain mr davies was all over google when they implemented this into there searches but its ok for them to do it at hardware level and not be able to block your traffic flowing through there data capture device lmao google and other search engines could have a good case for monopoly as customers using there service get hijacked before the data even reaches that site so mr davies must be ok with it as long as he gets paid which google or other search engines didnt do for him.

So the trail is opt in through a webpage i wonder if the whole 2 shopping addicts sign up for it and give there customer feedback :) i bet everyone connected to said host will still have there data processed as it goes through the same switch still illegal in my eyes ;(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry to be a bit slow, but the trial will intercept all data of all users, even if they have "opted out".

Will these trial subjects even be told about the interception?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yes, i posted that link and related urls this morning #3187 , the one that got phorm pic panic, opps...:dozey:

its interesting that they are bringing out the UK CEO out in manchester to paying clients, at the same time as the london PIA.

the speakers and chair are an odd bunch, in the shadows but making fast progress.... it seems.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi all, first post, but long time reader of this thread. Really appreciate the work you are all doing here to try and stop this disgrace. Alexander, your paper is excellent, sir.

And very old spin at that, Ravenheart. I wrote to Ms. Sanderson back on March 17th about this proposed scheme. Originally she told me in her reply (18th March) that:
Note the bold part which she later changed in a further reply (20th March) to, This came after I accused her of purposely trying to mislead me with information she knew was not true.

Anyway, to the old spin. Notice what she tells Alexander in her reply above and see if you can spot the similarity to what she told me, below:
and
Yep folks, it's a straight copy and paste job.

I don't see any help coming from this woman to be honest, or from BT when they even censor their own forum to stop people asking questions.

Disgraceful!!

OB

btw. Both emails are available in full should anyone wish a copy forwarded.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi,

Will be sending this to Mr Branson tomorrow via registered mail, but would appreciate comments etc.

April 14, 2008

Sir Richard Branson
Virgin Management Limited
120 Campden Hill Road
London
W8 7AR



Dear Sir Richard,

I am driven to write to you in your capacity as a significant shareholder in the Virgin Media group and more-so one that can help direct its future path as an ethical and responsible company. I write this as we (the customers of this group) have been unsuccessful in achieving a satisfactory response to our concerns from the usual channels (Customer Service etc.). For a number of weeks now there has been a multitude of article and comment pieces on the internet and in traditional media regarding the proposed tie-up between the top three ISP’s and Phorm, a company specialising in targeted advertising.

Whilst, I personally have no objection to advertisements on the internet (after all they support many worthwhile sites, some of which I am member of) what I do object to is the invasion of my privacy that would result from this partnership.
From what I (and many others) understand of the nature of this relationship it would involve Phorm supplied equipment profiling my browsing history, in order to serve me targeted adverts. Again I have no issue with this provided regulatory statutes are met. What I (and many others) do have a problem with is twofold:

Firstly, the proposed system is opt-out – in breach of both UK and European law.

Secondly, even if I opt out my browsing history is still mirrored to the profiler, despite my explicit choice for this not to happen.

One of your competitors (Carphone Warehouse) has already stated that their system will ensure that a customer who has opted will not have their browsing passed to any of this equipment. I trust that the Virgin Group, a company known for its ethics and support for the individual would follow a similar path.

I remain yours sincerely

WinstonS

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That rides a coach and horses through what Ian Woodham (VM's Data Protection Officer) wrote to me, that as of 14th March "No Phorm equipment has been implemented on Virgin Media's network and will not be until we are confident that it is compliant to do so".

This needs clarification. Or else this Jamie will go ballistic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nice one Craig.

I do tend to agree with you. There's enough FUD flying around straight from the horses (well, eleventy PR companies) mouths so no need for any more inaccuracies or meaningless flannel. The PR companies seem to be covering that latter aspect fairly well ;)

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As I mentioned previously Jamie. I have asked via the comments facility on that website, for clarification of the comments. I expect that the author is not quite as informed as he ought to be over the facts of the data collection and the implementation of OIX.
Speaking of OIX it has been over a week now since I mailed Phorm asking for a complete list of their OIX partners. I've had no response as yet, not even the dismissal I expected.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a small thought, how many small shareholders have stakes in BT? Quite a few no doubt. Each therefore has voting rights. I have no idea what is involved, but could these shareholders stir things up a bit at an AGM or EGM by requiring some sort of motion that BT do not use Phorm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please do - though note that Cable Forum messages have a character limit so we will need the RIPA notice shortened if we include the url as well.

Does anyone have an opinion about changing the front page of inphormationdesk to a variant of
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/legislators.htm
and moving the current front page into the site as a Q&A section?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In reply to our learned friend Alexander Hanff...

And hello all, from a BT customer who has been following this issue since February.

Alexander: Amazingly, Emma Sanderson's email to you is almost exactly the same as the email I received from Christine Hutchinson...

Quote:
Many thanks for your letter [to] Jillian Lewis. Please accept my sincere apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

I can confirm that on the 14 Feb BT, Talk Talk and Virgin Media all confirmed that we had entered into agreements with Phorm, enabling us to offer to our customers a new free internet feature called Webwise. Webwise provides an additional level of protection against malicious websites and ensures fewer irrelevant ads. In essence, it’s a safer and more relevant browsing experience. Prior to the announcement BT thoroughly researched Webwise and was encouraged by the very positive consumer response to the service.

Clearly our customer's privacy is extremely important to us. Information on users’ browsing is completely anonymous. The system doesn't store personally identifiable information, doesn't store URLs, IP addresses or retain browsing histories and the raw data used is deleted in real time - by the time the page loads. Webwise does not scan webmail pages so your emails on Gmail, Yahoo mail or Hotmail are not scanned. Secure pages like your banking websites and web forms like any online registration or sign-up forms are not scanned. No personal information often contained in form fields is therefore ever captured by the system. No data is passed outside of BT's network. Webwise privacy standards have been verified by external auditor Ernst & Young and leading privacy advocate Simon Davies, MD of 80/20 Thinking, has also carried out a Privacy Impact Assessment on Webwise technology. Of course BT, and I am sure the same applies to TalkTalk and Virgin Media, have all completed appropriate due diligence on Phorm, we also understand that other ISPs both in and outside of the UK are currently talking to them.

BT is, of course, aware of the legal requirements regarding interception of communications under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. We consider that these steps will meet the legal requirements of RIPA and also ensure that customers are able to take a fully informed decision as to whether to take the service.

BT expects to begin technical trials of the BT Webwise service in the coming weeks. We will be inviting around 10,000 BT broadband customers to take part in the trial. The trial invitation will be presented through a special web page that will appear when those customers start a web browsing session. At this point, those customers invited can choose to switch on BT Webwise, choose not to take part or to find out more information. Customers choosing not to take part will not have their browsing information mirrored or profiled, and no information will go to the BT managed profiler. No information is gathered, and therefore no information is forwarded to Phorm. Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment. The www.bt.com/webwise site also contains detailed information on the service and a one-click option to switch the service off, which can be activated at any point during the trial. Alternatively customers can block the www.webwise.net domain. The BT Privacy Policy and BT Total Broadband Service Terms will be amended accordingly, we do not consider this a material change. As you may have seen, BT has also confirmed publicly that in parallel with the trial, we are already developing a solution for customers that do not want the service - that removes the need for 'opt-out' cookies altogether.

To summarise, our customer research shows that lots of people would be keen to see advertisements that are relevant to their interests, we are planning to trial the service shortly, BT customers may be invited to participate in the trial (via a webpage) but the choice as to whether or not they participate is entirely theirs. Furthermore BT is committing to providing it's customers with a choice as to whether they want this service or not going forward - it will be optional.

Regards

Christine Hutchinson
Assistant to the Chairman and Chief Executive

Please note the bold text in the email above which I was sent (my added emphasis). I note that your email text did not include this. Are you a BT customer? Or is it that they have just realised customers are wise to the contractual law position, which allows the customer to decide that THEY (the customer) are entitled to determine it IS a material change and thus terminate their agreement without penalty...?

Your email quote Alexander: The BT Privacy Policy and BT Total Broadband Service Terms will be amended accordingly. As you may have seen, BT has also confirmed publicly that in parallel with the trial, we are already developing a solution for customers that do not want the service - that removes the need for 'opt-out' cookies altogether.

I wish I could have been in London for the meeting on Tuesday. I hope to see/hear a recording of it. Or I am sure someone will transcribe. Very eager to see where they propose to go on it now. Nearly every road they turn down gets rough, diverted from or closed off, so I wonder where this will go next (hopefully down one final dead end, but I doubt it, they seem intent on dragging it out for a slow and painful ending)

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hadnt thought of that, I have a couple of thousand shares in BT (from the original privatisation and subsequent hive-offs, when my father bought them in the names of everyone in our family). But to be honest I think the big shareholders will look at the figures and go.. 'ooh profit' and ignore us, but it can't hurt to try.

Anyone know when the AGM is? Should be able to submit motions ot the board, well all the other companies I own shares in allow it, of course whether they listen...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Winston.

I've been meaning to touch on this point since I started reading here. I feel it is again time to point out that even though VM cable and television services operate under the name of Virgin Media they are in fact still NTL Telewest operating under a new leased name. The company bought out a majority share in the mobile division of Virgin and as part of that they obtained a 20 year lease for use of the name and Sir Richard in return obtained a stake in the NTL Telewest company.

I feel that Sir Richard has at times in these forums come under attack for issues which really don't have anything to do with him personally. I agree it is good to bring this matter to his attention as it is often implied that he might be involved in this.

My mother is an acquaintance of Sir Richard and I myself have met him twice. Given that I have his West London home address here I may write to him myself asking if he is aware of this issue and ask for his feelings on the matter but as he is a businessman who has received a holding in NTL as part of a trade I'll not be claiming that he is responsible, but rather that he might want to go on record as he is the highest profile name attached to the Phorm issue by default of NTL using the VM brand name.

I think what I'd like to get across is that the company operating the virginmedia cable services is not a Virgin holding and is still NTL by another name.

regards

Craig.

---------- Post added at 22:35 ---------- Previous post was at 22:33 ----------

This is indeed an interesting option to pursue. Both my parents are BT stockholders in a small measure and I'll make some enquiries as to the procedure for calling and extraordinary general meeting and see if there are reasons to do so regarding the trials.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is my first posting.
I am not totally clear of all the issues here, however, I would like somebody to answer the following questions if they can please.

1 If my internet usage is to be spied on and information given randomly (this is my gist of the situation) whats to stop phorm from accessing any of my banking or personal details used on line for purchasing etc?

2 I have heard the the US may pull the plug on UK internet providers using Phorm. Will I still be able to access my MSN boards, many of which I use for my hobbies or for health support?
3 Does anybody have a list of broadband providers who will definately not be using phorm?

I may need to get rid of Virgin quite soon

Eastbourne

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hank, your reply paragraphs 1, 3 & 4 are identical to the first reply I received from (or so I thought) Emma Sanderson.

Only difference is that in yours she changed the bit about re. the PIA to 80/20 instead of Privacy International.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its interesting that they sign up filing Friday with the US based FTC an independent agency of the United States government to get in the limilight alongside MS.

and MS are signing because of the EU directive under consideration, Brussels, 09 April 2008 ARTICLE 29 DATA PROTECTION WORKING PARTY

they know full well , their stance there is good for their business model, after all that only leaves NebuAd to contend with, or more likely collaberate with, as i suspect they will eventually.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Consider using www.tinyurl.com to condense a URL that might use too many characters for a signature.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm wondering wether it really is Emma Sanderson replying, I've also been asking a few questions and getting immediate replies. At my company we're often asked to look at saving our directors maybe 15/30 minutes a day as their time is precious. It would make sense that Emma has a PA fielding questions with standard cut and paste answers. I can't imagine a director spending their time communicating with the mob.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Craig,

i am not saying he is responsible in any way, shape or form (the thought couldnt be further from my mind), and I have no intention of being rude to him, and kind of hope my letter wasnt. But, he has allowed what was NTL to use the Virgin brand. And surely as the ultimate arbiter of what that brand is worth and what it can be used for he must realise the potential damage to the brand value of allowing this to continue.

I only address the letter to Sir Richard as he holds a 14% stake in this combined group (figures from a Google search. so if wrong please correct). I remember him talking about the unfair competition of BA (shades of Mr Laker, I feel), and would hope that the value of the Vigin brand is such that he would perhaps use his influence to affect the future course of the company.

Regards

WinstonS

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep really funny that post where the guy is going to give a talk of how they broke the law by using Bt,talk talk and virgin media without anyone knowing (wonder who was affected in the virgin media camp was it me with the ultra ballistic latency i was having for months and numerous reformats ;)).

Also interesting to note that they keep refering to Mr Davies role in privacy international in replys as mr davies has been said to quote that any company who he has a contract or dealings with that quote his role in PI he will cease that very contract instantly (i can find his exact quote if needed) phorm have also used this quote in the past yet hes still working for them :(.

If this whole episode was software based i.e the isp involved gave you a disk which installed the said ad serving software if YOU wanted it fine i'd have no problem letting it gather dust on some shelf, but the thing comes to a head when spyware companies put hardware in place to do it, that should have been the only Opt in covered and legal not something which is a data mining set top box engineered as the first stop on the bus route to spyville.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hugo Drayton is turning up here as well (near the bottom of the page, day 2).

http://www.epublishing-forum.com/epu...programme.html

7/8th May, London

Brings some money in I suppose.;)

Presumably, these meeting strands are about drawing in potential advertisers. If that's the case, are they likely to get indiscreet about their abilities?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not sure where you got that info from, I have never seen Simon Davies say that. He has said if a client is involved in illegal activity 80/20 T will sever the relationship.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes Winston I totally agree with your position.
I did not actually mean to suggest that you personally were responsible for the things I mentioned. The simple fact is I am new to the posting process here but have been reading for some considerable time and had meant to bring this issue up since reading some attacks on Sir Richard early in the thread and your thread simply reminded, and prompted me to comment.


Also please don't think that as I have a small and insignificant connection with him that I in any way would condone him should he remain silent or worse, speak in favour of the Phorm company and the harm to the Virgin brand. Hopefully I can only help bring it to his attention in the same manner as you.

As I said, it's very easy for the company we have issues with to be confused with the Virgin group not least because of the name and I just thought it was time again to be sure that it was brought up.

No disrespect was meant regarding your post. I'm not that obtuse. ;) I have a habit of being very concise and accusatory when I feel the need ;)

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, I'll have to try to make the RIPA notice shorter to fit it in.

Good idea about changing the front page to the "legislators" page.

I'm thinking about drafting some more template letters, such as DPA subject access requests to send to iSPs - after all, every interception also entails processing of (probably) personal information and (perhaps) sensitive personal information. Maybe also a full set of RIPA notices for members of the public, commercial websites and individuals: letters to registered offices/company secretaries, commercial websites, individual websites, email footers, forum posting signatures. Do you think they would be useful -

Another thought - could the site carry a specific explanation of the term "Webwise", so that BT test subjects can get the right answers when they do a Google search to find out what it is.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you want a site to be pulled in by search engines, have a look at Meta Tags...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its here under 80/20's ethics and principles of engagment alexander

http://www.8020thinking.com/ethics.html

This applies equally to misrepresentation of the view of organizations to which 80/20 employees are affiliated.

We will disengage from any relationship where the client appears to be manipulating our involvement or our advice for ulterior motives.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Your payments and bank info will be covered by HTTPS, its encrypted and should be hidden from Phorm.
Other ecommerce details such as shopping basket/order summary/delivery address may or may not be encrypted.
Probably. Some webmasters in this country are none too happy about their content being parasitically scammed by Phorm. See www.dephormation.org.uk for sample code which will allow web masters to detect Phorm.
www.antiphormleague.com or look at BadPhorm

Phorm, STM, price increases, I'm suprised you haven't moved already.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome to the forum, Eastbourne. As I understand it, banking and credit card details almost always use encryption (although a lot of forms for other purposes do not) and we are told this is foolproof. But the Phorm programmers are former members of Russia's Lebedev Institute which is a world-leader expert in cryptography. And who would be in a better position than Phorm's programmers, and VM's staff, to get into our encrypted data?

---------- Post added at 23:21 ---------- Previous post was at 23:07 ----------

I suppose BT isn't their client, so BT's appropriation of PI's reputation to serve its own PR ends doesn't appear to be one of these cases. Unless, of course, Phorm wrote or prompted the BT press release - in which case that would be manipulation by 80/20's client for ulterior motives.

Tellingly:

"From April 2008, we will do our best to ensure that all our client contracts will contain the following provisions:

Any instance of deception or dishonesty by an 80/20 client during the course of our work will result in the termination of that relationship.
We will disengage from any relationship where the client appears to be manipulating our involvement or our advice for ulterior motives. ..."

Why "from April 2008"? And why will they only "do their best"? If clients won't accept a term as basic as this, just say "No". That's what having business ethics means.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So then, tomorrows meeting in London. is it likely to be an ambush? And if so what is best way avoid being seen as a 'Phorm-puppet'. don't know if it is just me, but I can't see why Kent et al. al are willing to submit themselves to a public meetinng without having their backs covered. Maybe I am too suspicious but...

Moreso based on this meeting in Manchester where they seem to be ready to discuss the serious side of things; the money. And the fact that they have our data already.

Are those of us going to the London meeting tomorrow being co-opted into a Phorm PR stunt?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The penny drops..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Money gains over ethics shares, bonuses you can have it all glowingly ;)
some of the pi forums got bombarded over the sell out i mean strategic partnership ohh damn i dont know how to word it anyone here good at pr or spin?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah, I know OB, we have to accept that given the sheer volume of complaints and questions they must be getting, they have to take people from their day job to purely deal with replying. Or they installed beds into the marketing team/PR team office area? Or they have hired external PR consultantss to deal with them...

Inrteresting to see the standard email changing in certain places though isn't it? When they realise their mistakes or when they realise that their slip up or perhaps a white lie won't wash, will be discovered and used against them in the forum here.
:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Something a little more descriptive perhaps?
I appreciate the fact that Phorm etc. will try and spin this meeting, and I hope that the quality of the participants attending will be enough to neutralise it, but in the event is isnt something more than 'the penny drops' would be usful. Any meaningful suggestions/questions. To quote:

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At some point 80/20 should be, but so far is not, conducting a proper Privacy Impact Assessment consultation with stakeholders. That would mean providing proper briefing information to stakeholders and asking them for their views.

This meeting is not a consultation meeting, as it is advertised by 80/20 as a way to ask questions of Phorm. It is a meeting where Phorm, not stakeholders, will express their views. That means in my view that this is a communications meeting. So yes, its purpose is to promote the Phorm PR agenda.

A further oddity of the meeting: Phorm has spoken disparagingly about the "small but vociferous group" of objectors to the proposed interception by ISPs. Why then has 80/20 limited its invitations to the meeting to that same "small but vociferous group"? 80/20 already knows that its client is not interested in the views of this group.

If I were to attend the meeting, I think I would ask some questions about the PIA process. In particular, when a proper and fully informed consultation was going to be conducted.

There is certainly little point in asking about the primary issue - the interception by ISPs. ISPs will not be there and Simon of 80/20 said last night that 80/20 is in any case unable to deal with the interception issue.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've always been a bit sceptical about the meeting, but I really don't think Simon would get involved in anything underhand.

I think we are at the point now where the best PR 'win' we could give them is if very few people turn up, particularly when a lot of effort has gone into canvassing the media to be there as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're right Winston, I do apologise. The post was curt but not intended as rude. Yes, this is indeed a PR exercise imho. I consider the meeting and the PIA to be an irrelevant smokescreen (apologies to Simon who is watching but keeping out tonight). Phorm have us debating their processes; very clever. I think the ISP's are our best target.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm off to bed but I notice that Simon ( from 80/20 thinking ) is online and I'd like to bring my post to his attention.

Hi Simon,

Welcome back.
I notice from the itinerary tomorrow that after the statements by yourself and others that the panel discussion involving the audience seems to be proposed between Kent Ertugrul & Marc Burgess *. I'd very much hope that you yourself could be part of this panel discussion in the interests of fairness, because actually, re: yesterday I do trust you to do the right thing. I just don't trust Kent to allow you to.

If it could be brought up at the meeting by the attendees should the panel not be expanded it does not allow for the proper questions to be answered I'd be grateful.

*http://www.8020thinking.com/events

regards
Craig

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quite. As part of a PIA we are entitled to proper, written briefing materials and an opportunity to make dignified, measured representations. We should not have to attend some stage-managed, potential shouting-match in order to try to glean a few more scraps of information or get a point across.

I didn't realise that a lot of effort had gone into canvassing the media. In that case, it's hard to see the meeting as anything other than a press conference.

As for Simon's motives - he has refused to answer reasonable questions about the PIA process. I don't suppose he is being underhand, but it looks to me as though he is being used and has been out-maneouvred. He seems to be confused about his objectives and role and feeling conflicted. I feel for him as a person, but he is not running a good PIA process, and we need a good PIA process to help protect our rights.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A question for 80/20Thinking if I may. Tomorrows meeting (actually todays now)

I appreciate there will be a schedule to follow but one would assume that we would be free to ask questions of the panel as we see fit at some point in the proceedings? I have a sneaking suspicion there are a number of questions that will be asked that need to be answered. Or are we to be subjected subjected to more of the same continous inane and irrelavant spin of Phorms PR groups?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good post. But you mean to say you're not rea££y sure why principles are being sacrificed? :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Programme

Chair: Dr Ian Brown

Overview and background, Simon Davies, 80/20 Thinking

Technical presentation: Marc Burgess, VP Technology, Phorm Inc.

Implications of the system: Dr Richard Clayton, FIPR

Commentary by Kent Ertugrul, CEO, Phorm Inc.

Panel discussion with audience: Kent Ertugrul & Marc Burgess

♦ ♦ ♦

Registration is free but numbers are limited so please notify us in advance by emailing info@8020thinking.com

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Notice how the open discussion will only be taken by the phorm people, Simon and Dr Richard Clayton are there just to be seen as endorsing the product model nothing more nothing less :(.

I hope simon dosent Come out and say that he is involved in PI that way he would break his own ethics :) maybe kent will sneak it in somewhere seems to be good at it ;).

Deffo the pr stunt trick as there taking there own camera crew with them to broadcast it ;).
Hope no one from burson in the crowd asking questions :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, you might try asking her to supply you this so called existing BT have obtained extensive legal and other external advice

legal documentation, or at least the names of the people they consulted. then....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So I take it that we will be free to present our views to the panel.

That's all I ask.

Whilst my natural cynicism expects this to be a PR stunt I would like to hope that we (the concerned public) are allowed to prevent our views and opinions to the board members of Phorm. I have no argument with them personally (they are, after all business people). My only concern is that the privacy and rights of the consumer are respected.

If Phorm can prove to me that their system does this, then I will withdraw, but so far it has not been shown to be the case. I would like them to show me (today) how they plan to do this, without breaking UK and european laws, and without hiding behind weasel words and half understandings of the law.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't know enough to be able to say. It's all very sad and very strange.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, the final version of the PIA is to be published by the end of this month. Tomorrow's meeting will, apparently, contribute to the process. We have already been warned that we will not like all the PIA's conclusions but will embrace some. I assume this means we're not likely to like all that might be concluded as it wouldn't be proper for conclusions to precede the evidence ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi all,

Apologies for the silence. I've been dealing (ironically enough) with another RIPA issue - local authorities abusing the covert surveillance provisions of the Act. All those people who'd called us complaining about unmarked vans at the bottom of their street are getting a little more attention from us now.

Anyhow, briefly, yes you are free to ask whatever questions you wish. I take the point about the Q&A panel just being Phorm. I'll ask the Chair to give Richard and I equal access, or be on the panel as well. We'll try to limit speakers to 15 minutes or less, so there should be at least an hour for Q&A.

You may have seen that we're filming the whole event for the Web. Unedited.

Sorry, but I can't keep up with the number of queries and points being made, so I'll just have to dip in whenever I can. Please don't take it personally if I miss you. I'll endeavour to come back later and answer as many points as I can.

Oh, and as for the person who compared me to George Best. Yes, well, maybe given the developments in the world now you should consider whether sometimes I too wake up after half a pointless lifetime and also ask "where did it all go wrong Simon".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kursk, yes, it can't be that the conclusions have already been determined. But then, if there is to be no proper process, and in particular no informed consultation, I am not clear what the conclusions will be based on.

---------- Post added at 00:46 ---------- Previous post was at 00:43 ----------

Simon, it would be really good if you could answer any of the questions and respond to any of the comments about the PIA process, which doesn't seem satisfactory to me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well it worked for these guys
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1iBbBL1040&NR=1 :angel:

i changed it for this one ,FAR better, late to their appearance..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would like a couple of technical questions asked by anyone going.

1. Will the device in such place have an impact on latency on the network due to extra packets been sent back.

2. Will there be any sort of technical support paid for by phorm for the isp's involved if there device affects the network as you give the device to the isp's as a gift so the device then belongs to the isp so they can get around the privacy bit by altering T&C accordingly.

3. how does the device match up your ip with an random number is this not associated profilling which makes the whole anonymous question a blatent lie as in that randomly generated number gets associated with X customers ip address.

4. Where does this collected data get sent for profiling (which also means where does the whole process go from start to finish everyone involved in looking at it and any backups the device stores or makes)?

5. have phorm any plans to expand the spyware device (once its green lighted) into doing more than just serving ads in the future.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry 'bout that Simon :D.

Today's meeting will be interesting.

I didn't expec......:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hope you make it today Alexander

Good Luck to everyone going......Keep Calm but Give 'em Hell

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is that work on behalf of yourself, PI or 80/20? If your non-80/20 activities are preventing you from conducting a proper PIA process, and in particular a proper consultation, then is it right for you to continue with this PIA engagement - cannot a colleague take it over for you, or provide you with more support? I am not sure it is the interests either of your client or stakeholders (or you) for you to be too thinly spread.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

;)

---------- Post added at 01:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:56 ----------

This is probably the most important point I will ever make on the issue of "consultation". Ready?

You all have quite properly made your voices heard. Now there is an expectation that tomorrow's meeting will reflect that nationwide anger and frustration. That's the way politics and social reform have worked for some thousands of years. Whether from the soapbox or the valve radio, Personal anger needs to reflect in a public display.

We are reliably informed that Cannel 4 news will be filming the event. There will be quite a few journalists present. Will they witness a revolt? Hundreds of angry consumers demanding the return of their rights?

Here's the reality. 52 people have signed up for tomorrow. Sure, some people will come without letting us know, but still more simply won't show. We've organised dozens of these meetings with the same dynamics for each.

52. Amazing. And half of those are industry or media. Yes, I want a consultation, but it takes more than one party to make that happen.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Lol classic post popper ill edit the beggining of that python for todays readers :D.

In the early years of the 21st century.
To combat the rising tide of People beliving they had privacy online, the isp's gave Kent Ertugrul of Phorm leave to move without let or hindrance throughout the land, in a reign of violence, terror and torture that makes a smashing profit.
This Was PHORM.

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome Bobcat.

all are welcome here, its not just a cable board, and many people here use DSL and other forms of connection.

no you didnt make a boo-boo, its been pointed out here way back (it is the longest running Phorm thread on the net after all) that VM asked them to remove the information.
if you see anything not mentioned, then post away , it all helps in collecting the information required....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you want the crowds I think there is a lot to be said for the inclusion of free sandwiches or a free hat ;)

In seriousness though, I do hope that quality makes up for the lack of quantity and that all present do justice to themselves - we can ask no more. I wish you all the best of luck, and that is you included as well, Simon :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi again Simon.

I just can't let it go ;)

I'm aware of your meaning behind the end of your post and maybe a little dismayed there will be no more people involved but surely it does not matter as long as we are represented by people with the academic know how to obtain the required answers from the panel? I was not aware that we were to stage an opposition revolt. I've said before I think that it would be a poor representation of ourselves to stage a public protestation in the manner of, say, fathers for justice, as it would make our cause look a little ridiculous from the outset.

I am glad that just 1 person is there who has all the facts and given the opportunity to speak will gain some answers. What these answers will be remains to be seen.

I personally would have hoped to be there but my work keeps me in Manchester that day but this personally gives me a great opportunity to hear what Hugo Drayton has to say to the industry at the Manchester Digital meeting. I'll find it £41 well spent ( I expect I'll spend more but I like a drink after these things )

When we have more answers and more importantly the results of a properly conducted PIA that has addressed and debated all of the issues with concerned stakeholders then we might know better how to organise a more vocal and public protestation.

Don't you think? Or would you have us behave like furtive theorists so that we might undermine our cause by looking foolish?


Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Most of the average users cant be expected to make it or pay for the cost of travelling there to express there concerns simon we as people typically rely on the media or watchdogs to pick this up and ask said questions when we cannot make it (which they dont).

Given the fact that i would say that 85-90% of internet users who use the isp's where this might get implemented dont even know about this in any sort of detail at the minute will be affected how can you have a proper consultation where no one knows about the issue at hand or the impact it will bring, most of us more informed users have to revert to blogs or some paid for pr company to spout it out we dont have expendable finances to fight or spend on pr.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well you cant say i didnt tell you , you should have ,or perhaps you still might, theres time yet, forget the 16th century townhall meeting style, and instead draged this into the 21st century wireless interweb live streamed meeting place style.

as requested by the Cable Forum membership ;)

all the tech and tech help you require is right there on the london campus and in the room is it not?

after all, these web interception for profit PIA projects are regarding every single individual stakeholders that is web connected, the perfect match, it's not rocket science.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I really must go to bed now but if Alexander returns tomorrow before his 1pm lecture can someone remind him that as the press and TV will be there he might want to have a good number of reproductions of his dissertation paper available for people to read? Even should he arrive late ( and I hope this is not the case as I think that the organisers would welcome a chance to exclude him ) then his paper is fine reading for the press before they make any reports.

Goodnight all.

Craig,

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jeez - you go away for a few hours and ...

Dephormation : Can I join you lot instead?

Why yes - There is, of course, an entry examination. However, having looked at your CV , the committee feels that your application would be successful.

More than interesting if true.

1) BT et al (including VM) were all running illegal trials.
2) Said Pimps were not running illegal trials but "data gathered" was already to hand - err.. from what pre-existing system?
3) Like all the illegal activities of BT (et al?) - they only involved a statistically insignificant number of offences and so they should not be prosecuted.

Look, I can't stress this enough - defence against the coming Phorm is not an option. Working out how successful your bomb shelter might be is an admission that you will be bombed.

AH and your "reply" (where to start?)

I imagine you are!

Last night I burgled only three houses. As you will agree, compared to the 25,000,000 homes I could have burgled, this is indeed a small scale burglary and therefore I shouldn't be prosecuted. Unfortunately I was caught and have to now stand trial. Not to worry - I fully intend to produce you in my defence.

A feature you seem to be relying on in your "we don't know who we wire-tapped" defence. Nice - the prosecution can't produce a body - therefore no crime.

Err... that would be your new technology "BT Webwise helps to increase your protection against online fraud and make your Internet browsing more relevant." (by wire-tapping your Internet communications in perpetuity)

Would you care to publish the names and/or companies that this legal advice came from?

Given that you cannot be trusted to even "fess up" to your prior activities - what guarantees do your customers get that this will be the case?

lets see... We (BT et al) were approached by a spyware company who pointed out that the only reason their last venture failed was that "consumers" could get rid of their wares using any reasonable virus scanner. You, BT, felt that their latest scam - putting their wares into your exchanges, away from the virus scanner, was indeed a great idea so long as your cut of the proceeds was right. You then go on to break all "consumer" trust (and perhaps more than a few laws) testing this new "cash cow" - and you get caught. Just to be clear here, you now want us to trust you when you say .. everything is OK - trust us .. insignificant..<blah> ...

You do of course realise that Phorm (and by extension you) have no business plan if we "will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment" having opted out.

They have sold this to you and their customers based on everyone being "in". let's face it, on asking "do you want your net connection wire-tapped?" is unlikely to get a great response.

No - they won't. What you are suggesting is that your illegal activities can be nullified by simply unilaterally changing a contract.

You have gotten away with changes to T&C mid contract for far too long. Your latest scam has shown your customers that, like any other business contract, you cannot unilaterally change the terms mid stream. Lets face it where would our entire business led system be if I could just change a contract to suit my ends at any point in the future. "Dear Bank, I now no longer wish to pay you X% interest on my loan, it simply doesn't suit my current lifestyle - signed me." Err... don't think so.

Wait one moment... I was under the impression that "Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment". Perhaps someone else should read your statements before you publish them? Contrary to your earlier statement we will indeed "come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment" but you are "working on" an alternative?

May we see the "thorough research" you know, terms of reference, questions, sample size, your conclusions, anything really because I have some "research" that says you are wrong. I can't produce it here on an open forum of course because that would be just stupid.

Yea, we can see that. I generally wire-tap my customers when the need arises. Business is business after all.

No, after all, only you have information such as IP addresses or postal addresses and we really trust you not to link the two. The same way we trust you not to wire tap our connections (then lie about it) and give the results to a spyware company. Yep, you have convinced me.

So that would be all the companies that are big enough to take you to court and destroy you. However, what about my service providers? Am I to take it that if they are not in the big league then who cares? There is in fact no way you can "blacklist" the millions of "sensitive" services that move across port 80.
So what is Phorm for - just dump them and run the whole system internally, yourselves.

Are the named entities like the legal opinion that you purchased around the same time? Can you get your money back?
Mirror mirror on the wall ...

Again - see earlier point - where can we view the "research". I know a guy who's "research" shows that "lots of people" would be keen to see all drugs made legal. I just don't know who is right anymore.

- signed confused

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and portly's A4 versions for the flyer quick recap handouts perhaps with the added see Alexanders PDF paper for detail etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the comment replying to my mention that PG2 has no seeming working version for Vista users 3x2.

It had no bearing on this issue other than I'm a bit ****ed off that I've embraced Vista on most of my machines ( both 64 and 32 bit versions ) and I was just having a dig at the fact that some people don't seem to be trying to keep up.

If I must be drawn on the issue of PG2 I personally think it is a waste of time that does nothing to protect your internet privacy and everything to hinder your internet experience.

I just want developers to get on the Vista train. There will be little choice soon. ( It happened the same with XP and I was one who held out with Win98 because it is still one of the most stable OS' that was produced. However it took 3 years to gain that stability and XP the same.)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I really wanted to embrace Vista but I gave up, life is too short. I'm back with XP and Ubuntu, and if the later sorts a few things out that'll be my main OS.

Anyway I hope the meeting goes well for the CF members attending, even if it had been in a better location I couldn't have made it as much as I'd like to have :(. Phorm may well see this as a PR stunt but their arrogance will hopefully be their downfall.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Couldnt agree more with all you posted 3x2 will be really interesting to find if vm ran secret trials sometime last year then they would have to come out and admit it themselves which should be fun to the vm brand.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm a bit behind - so excuse me.

Re: Vista / plugins / etc - just making the point that we shouldn't require them. I don't want Phorm in my system at all, I really shouldn't have to work around it.

Re: 80/20

Here's the reality - I can't get there, some of us have to work. Kent may have a private jet, millions of dollars, access to the media and a professional PR team - I don't. This sounds like a press conference.

Are these the same "Journalists" we have seen to date? BBC technology (today) "CyberCarpet opens way to Pompeii" , "Why this cycling jacket changes colour" ,"Freediving with beluga whales" and of course "BT wire tap 40,000 customers". Oh no I made that last one up.

Yes, I seem to remember a small matter of new bibles in a Scottish church ending with the Kings head rolling down a London street. We can only hope ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah, you just keep on quaffing that wine and supping on those grapes. The Internet will set you free. No need to make any effort.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Why Choose Delaware as Your Corporate Home? (why indeed?)

More than 800,000 business entities have their legal home in Delaware including more than 50% of all U.S. publicly-traded companies and 60% of the Fortune 500. Businesses choose Delaware because we provide a complete package of incorporation services including modern and flexible corporate laws, our highly-respected Court of Chancery, a business-friendly State Government, and the customer service oriented Staff of the Delaware Division of Corporations.

Endorsed by Monty Burns (Oh OK, I added that bit)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simon,

I agree that 52 people is a pretty poor show, but you also need to understand that the meeting is in central London starting at 6:30pm. Most people finish work around 5-6pm so unless people are working in London it is going to be incredibly difficult for many people to get there.

The only reason I can get there is because I am a student and only have one lecture tomorrow, otherwise I wouldn't be there either.

Also please remember the notice of the event was relatively short, giving people precious little time to book holidays in order to attend the event. So I don't think it is fair to criticise the lack of attendance really. It would have been better to hold the event in a more central location (like Birmingham) during a weekend or maybe even the upcoming bank holiday, which I am sure would have attracted a far larger audience.

For anyone from this forum going to the meeting tomorrow a short description of me and what I intend to wear, so if people wish to have a chat they can.

I am in my early 30s, 5'10" with a broad build. My head is shaved and I wear black rectangular glasses. I will be wearing a dark suit with like blue pin stripes and a light coloured shirt/tie. I should hopefully also have a bundle of paper and camcorder + tripod.

I look forward to seeing some of you there. Now I really must finish the last part of this dissertation, so forgive me if I am slow responding to any questions over the next couple of hours.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

3x2

Please there is no need for that sort of comment, it doesn't help us in any way at all and simply makes us look like a bunch of uneducated yobs. Let's try and keep a cool head and if you have a complaint or don't like something someone says, address the issue in a mature and respectful fashion.

My post above yours addresses the same issues but in a tone much more suitable to aid the discussions as opposed to alienate people.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The reference to wine and grapes is a historical allusion to the fall of advanced empires in the face of enemy onslaught. Think, Rome.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's obviously a matter of opinion but from my perspective you seem ignorant, rude (as well as abusive) and incredibly aggressive towards Simon, who's already stated that he is taking no personal financial benefit from 80/20's work with Phorm.
As the saying goes, ymmv.

It's about time we looked at matters thru the other end of the telescope -- Simon's PIA could actually be our best bet to remove the worst excesses of Phorm's wire-tapping. And it's not too much of a flight of the imagination to suspect the final document could provide the evidence that'll defeat them.

Perhaps instead of character assassination and snide innuendo, our energies would be better spent carefully explaining the intricacies of Alexander's legal arguments?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK folks, I am kidding myself to think I am going to finish this paper tonight. I am going to finish putting together my questions for tomorrows meeting and then get a little rest before my lecture at 11. I do apologise for the delay, especially when there is so little left to write, but I am sure you can appreciate that getting prepared for this meeting is more important at this time and I should at least try to get some sleep tonight.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Alexander

Get your self to bed!

Good Look At The Meeting ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

indeed Simon, but your forgetting this is the net tech age.

OT for this thread but accurate for all the worlds people in both built up area's and remote villages etc:

and you dont want to be just working while you read and respond and it can be fun to learn new things and idea's.

your right though, even it your intent was not this, FYI "The Internet will set you free" and more accurately, 'the wireless Mesh net'.will set you free.

thats what the OLPC (One Laptop Per Child) shows with its Laptops used in the remote villages of developing nations and perhaps even in the forbidden places like NC etc if their careful.

they can even make their own wireless Mesh Network http://meraki.com/oursolution/mesh/ and if your without grid power #590

and very little effort if people are ready to put a little cash and learning effort into it, a perfect gift for those that dont currently have this freedom to mass communicate and interact perhaps.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh Popper, I really thought you'd see where I'm coming from. Yes I do know about the wonderful powers of the Internet. I've used it in campaigning many times. But you can't deny ten thousand years of political history in ten years, and that's what seems to be happening. OK, we're all cool and wired, but big deal. There's a million issues you're competing with. Use the net to communicate by all means, but my argument is that you then go that extra mile.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well you have done fine the current one online is only missing the last part unless you found more and thats more than fine for now.

get yourself off the rest and good luck with the lecture , it seems to be the perfect warmup for the evenings deliberations ;)

10 Council of Europe's Convention on Cybercrime

to save people looking for the link in the mass of pages
http://www.paladine.org.uk/phorm_paper.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

what is your exact point with all these cryptic messages then simon as you dont like to answer any questions on this open forum?

what is going to fall over if that is what your suggesting?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree, even having used and worked in the internet industry for over 16 years it is still not a substitute for personal interaction and I hope it never will be. It is a tool, an incredibly valuable tool admittedly, which has changed and continues to change our global society in dramatic ways, but it is not a substitute for living.

Life is about communicating, developing and improving the world in which we live and our understanding of it. One of greatest gifts we have a species is how we manage to communicate on so many different levels.

The Internet and related technologies is an amazing feat (which is hopefully why we are all trying to protect our rights to privacy in the first place) and I am one of it's biggest fans, I am passionate about technology and communications, to see technology break down national boundaries that have existed for centuries and allow people to communicate and learn about different cultures. I strongly believe that it can even help to increase tolerance and understanding, build global democracies and improve the world in which we live. But I would not want to give up the real spirit of living, the ability to interact, enrich and be enriched by others.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 05:07 ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 ----------

I would like to proudly announce that I have been invited to take part in the meeting as a guest speaker. I say proud because I get the opportunity to represent all of you and everyone else in the country who has expressed concern and campaigned against this technology.

I would also like to thank Simon for allowing the general public to be represented at the meeting. I think it is a very important step in the right direction and I will do my best to raise the concerns many have expressed over the last 2 months.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

sure im playing with you ;)

indeed , your after the in your face in person approach and thats indeed one of the (some might say Old school)Options.

you are OC dealing with masses of web connected people here from far and wide, and as already pointed out, not everyone has the means to drop everything on short notice and attend.

such is life in the UK, and many of those netted people live in area's and conditions many people will probably never understand or have seen, never mind lived.

some parts of the UK isnt all rosy and affluent, yet they might have the net as their main form of entertainment , are we to ignore them because they are not the clientele the inteception for profit models are after, not all poor (in relative terms OC)people live in other countrys, many are here now, today, and on the net as their one luxury... buy a train ticket to london, or pay this months BB bill if you will...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That isn't the way sounded to me at all.

I have tried to remove the more offensive remarks from my earlier post but there is a time limit and it has passed. I was angry and was a bit hasty in my reply. Perhaps an Admin can do it later.

Anyway I'm off home to bed soon so bye all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Alexander

Excellent news, As I said Good Look at the Meeting, and now get your self off to bed. ;)

I am off to bed. :zzz:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mick have you got a front page CF story primed for today ?

incase C4 news etc were to come visit Cable forum, after the potential interview with Alexander as the peoples speaker for their story backdrop, just as per the first poll backdrop shots....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will be giving a 10 minute "speech" after Simon Davies at the beginning of the meeting and also commentary during the following stages of the meeting.

Unfortunately, it means I won't be able to record the meeting because I will be up there on the stage. Although it has been said the meeting will be webcast and recorded by other parties. Someone please grab the webcast and put it on YouTube.

Alexander Hanff
Yes I know, but I tried sleeping and it isn't working.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can't make it to the meeting, but have uploaded a flyer for someone to print and distribute if they can:
Inphormationdesk Flyer V1.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see things got a little heated again last night. Almighty Zarquon! Slagging people off here won't achieve anything other than convincing those who haven't decided yet that we're a bunch of mardy, spiteful little techies.

Congratulations on being asked to speak at the meeting Alexander - that's great news for us here and another counter to the Phorm spin and PR machine.

Disappointing news that only 52 people have signed up to attend. Even those who believe it to be nothing more than a PR exercise should make the effort to attend, see for themselves and contribute. There might just be a media presence there asking for your opinion. I hope more people will come along.

Someone mentioned nuclear shelters. There were a few public service information broadcasts and adverts for shelters in the US in the 1950s (http://blog.wfmu.org/ was where I found them). Having watched Peter Watkins' excellent The War Game several times before hearing the adverts, I knew that the shelters really were of little assistance.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

if anyone here (stuart?)has access to the london campus networks and student housing networks, then it might be a good time to see if any resident campus students are planning on attending or have even read the CF thread...to get informed,were do they hangout anyway?, face book!.

or if they even realise this event is taking place there, and it effects, or will effect them at some point....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex,

be careful if you do attend.

These guys have employed professional PR men to present themselves. If you suspect you're being manipulated, don't sit there and cooperate.

TBH I think we've already been stitched up. Phorm have had days to prepare for this. They announce it at short notice to wrong foot objectors. And organise it in London away from the people hit by their trials in the South West. Note that Phorm get the last word on the agenda.

It is a PR presentation, not a debate. (What on earth is a privacy campaigner like Simon doing organising a meeting like this for a firm with credentials like Phorm? ££).

They will take any concession as an endorsement of their company.

Preparation is key. Take notes in a summary and detail if you have time. A quick ref, and a detailed ref. with quotes. Take some prints of the reg articles too.

Good luck. Please do give them hell.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would love to have attended the meeting, but as I'm currently waiting a knee replacement, don't drive, and the fact that London is a nightmare to travel around on public transport if you have a disability are all factors.

I wish those attending the meeting all the best.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh Christ its just hit me. Clever PR people would pack the audience for the camera, probably with their own staff/Phorm investors. And preselect the question list.

I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, but with the calibre and number of PR companies involved you might wonder.

Simon's 80/20 firm are strategic partners with PR consultants Burson-Marsteller.

Phorms list of PR consultants supposedly includes Citigate, Freud, John Stonborough, and Burson-Marsteller.

So I guess they're working together on this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Backing down in the face of possible adversary is not the way to win a battle or get your message heard. Irrespective of the purpose of the meeting (although I have to admit I don't think it is anything sinister) I have a responsibility to myself, to everyone else who has been active on this issue and more importantly to my son, to ensure he retains the right to privacy and liberty.

If we all just sit back and wait for someone else to take a stand, before we realise it, no-one has and the consequences are dire.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Raven, its still possible to effect things even if your not going, for instance i asked this before, did anyone email sir bernard to see if he can come here and take part.

perhaps he might want to make it to the PIA and give his support to the the peoples speaker ;)

and/or get some independent airtime to take full advantage of the situation if it turns out to be a PR exercise, perhaps even get some more airtime than a 30second spot or less on C4 news?

pitching a question time style round table live net stream and many more smaller projects.

its a pitty the UK 18doughtystreet http://search.virginmedia.com/result...t&cr=&x=43&y=9

doesnt seem to be running or exist anymore, is there anything like that available now were at least some real 21st century net TV coverage could take place today?.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

According to this report Virgin Media have already passed on customer data to Phorm.

"Phorm has initially populated the OIX with data gathered from BT, Virgin and Carphone Warehouse on users’ internet browsing habits. Many observers believe this is a step too far in terms of compromising privacy issues."

http://tinyurl.com/49sywm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

already covered and your tiny url is broken..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Which page number? life's too short :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

take a key word (longer than 3 letters)and pop it into the search posts above and you get
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/se...archid=2242487

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 ----------

ohh well what do you know, i was looking to see if i could find any new place like 18doughtystreet.com and found their old renamed url
and right there a this old program.

"
New Technologies (05/11/2007)

http://doughty.gdbtv.com/images/prog...6228/small.jpg
Shirley Dent of the Institute of Ideas presents Claire Fox News.
Her guests include: Rob Killick CEO, cScape, Toby Marshall, Lecturer and Researcher, Chris Meade, Co-director, Institute for the Future of the Book and Jeremy Thorp, Head of Internal Communications, BT Global Services, UK "

iv not watched it yet, but it apparently covered privacy and new tech...

http://doughty.gdbtv.com/player.php?...b30348cd9f9130

might be interesting or at least good for some contacts in this.... ;)

i used to watch 18doughtystreet from its first days, alas i didnt get to continue that for some time and so the closer of it if thats the case i missed, shame.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ohh I'm still fighting from my little fortress here, take more than a dodgy knee to stop me. I've got a few letters to post this morning, and I'll be interested to get the reply, which of course I'll share with you all once I hear back from them.

Keep fighting folks