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pip08456 14-07-2018 17:26
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35954472)
Her current proposals do not satisfy the essential red lines. For example, when she says we take control of our fisheries, that merely means we decide what to give away. The entire "we take control" part of the proposal means just that.

If the EU agrees to her proposal just like that, then I'm proved right because they wouldn't agree unless their ECJ has supremacy.

She has given so much away that the end result from here is easy to predict unless there is no deal.
Both I and others have predicted this outcome from day 1.

Mick 15-07-2018 10:36
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
BREAKING: U.S President Donald Trump told Theresa May should sue the EU she has revealed today on Marr show.

OLD BOY 15-07-2018 10:58
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35954472)
Her current proposals do not satisfy the essential red lines. For example, when she says we take control of our fisheries, that merely means we decide what to give away. The entire "we take control" part of the proposal means just that.

If the EU agrees to her proposal just like that, then I'm proved right because they wouldn't agree unless their ECJ has supremacy.

She has given so much away that the end result from here is easy to predict unless there is no deal.
We will be out of the Common Fisheries arrangements, which means that we control our own waters. So we decide who fishes there, just as we did pre-common market. The fisheries industry has been crying out for this change.

Theresa May has already confirmed that under her proposals, we will no longer be under the control of the ECJ.

I am struggling to work out what your objection actually is. I have no qualms about crashing out of the EU under WTO rules if we have to, but a trade deal relating to our EU trade is sensible.

We want trade deals all over the world. The one we are discussing now just happens to be the EU one.

papa smurf 15-07-2018 11:06
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35954514)
BREAKING: U.S President Donald Trump told Theresa May should sue the EU she has revealed today on Marr show.
That was the only question she answered ,all she did was dither and dance around the other questions ,it was clear she was deceiving us imo .

1andrew1 15-07-2018 11:09
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35954514)
BREAKING: U.S President Donald Trump told Theresa May should sue the EU she has revealed today on Marr show.
An interesting sound bite from the PM. More here
Quote:
Talking about the president's advice on how to handle the EU, Mrs May said: "Interestingly, what the president also said at that press conference was 'don't walk away'.
"Don't walk away from those negotiations because then you'll be stuck. So I want us to be able to sit down to negotiate the best deal for Britain...
Mrs May insists her plans would allow the UK to strike its own trade deals, despite agreeing a "common rulebook" with the EU on cross-border trade.
She said such rules were needed to protect jobs in firms with "integrated supply chains" and deal with the Irish border issue.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44838028

Mick 15-07-2018 11:17
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35954528)
That was the only question she answered ,all she did was dither and dance around the other questions ,it was clear she was deceiving us imo .
I heard about the interview but I couldn't watch it for fear of breaking the TV. I have heard the crushing reviews though. May is running on empty.

Sephiroth 15-07-2018 11:31
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35954524)
We will be out of the Common Fisheries arrangements, which means that we control our own waters. So we decide who fishes there, just as we did pre-common market. The fisheries industry has been crying out for this change. [SEPH]: Oops. I hope you really aren't wearing rose tinted specs. The Fishing industry want the waters back; May has left the door open for the EU boot to wedge in as a negotiating point for other things we want. She has used vague wording here to allow here to give stuff away to the Brussels turds.

Theresa May has already confirmed that under her proposals, we will no longer be under the control of the ECJ. [SEPH]: Oh please. A whole swathe of stuff, including social policy, are to be aligned to EU rules and thus enforced by the ECJ. True, we can decide to diverge in which case it's Schmitt or bust as we come up against the arbitration panel and ultimately the ECJ. What's more the deal is silent on the Human Rights convention which lets the ECJ in on everything. Oh - just pointed out on TV - will I be able to buy a 2200 watt Hoover again?


I am struggling to work out what your objection actually is. I have no qualms about crashing out of the EU under WTO rules if we have to, but a trade deal relating to our EU trade is sensible. [SEPH]: I understand the need for compromise. But now reading this White Paper, we have rolled over and the Brussels turds will still want more. I'm disgusted at May - I'm even willing to entertain that she has been duplicitous all along.


We want trade deals all over the world. The one we are discussing now just happens to be the EU one. [SEPH]: … and on terms that will ties us down from a customs perspective because we might be bringing in tariff free goods from, say, Singapore..

Damien 15-07-2018 11:49
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35954514)
BREAKING: U.S President Donald Trump told Theresa May should sue the EU she has revealed today on Marr show.
Well he is an American.

OLD BOY 15-07-2018 17:23
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35954532)



We will be out of the Common Fisheries arrangements, which means that we control our own waters. So we decide who fishes there, just as we did pre-common market. The fisheries industry has been crying out for this change. [SEPH]: Oops. I hope you really aren't wearing rose tinted specs. The Fishing industry want the waters back; May has left the door open for the EU boot to wedge in as a negotiating point for other things we want. She has used vague wording here to allow here to give stuff away to the Brussels turds.

Theresa May has already confirmed that under her proposals, we will no longer be under the control of the ECJ. [SEPH]: Oh please. A whole swathe of stuff, including social policy, are to be aligned to EU rules and thus enforced by the ECJ. True, we can decide to diverge in which case it's Schmitt or bust as we come up against the arbitration panel and ultimately the ECJ. What's more the deal is silent on the Human Rights convention which lets the ECJ in on everything. Oh - just pointed out on TV - will I be able to buy a 2200 watt Hoover again?


I am struggling to work out what your objection actually is. I have no qualms about crashing out of the EU under WTO rules if we have to, but a trade deal relating to our EU trade is sensible. [SEPH]: I understand the need for compromise. But now reading this White Paper, we have rolled over and the Brussels turds will still want more. I'm disgusted at May - I'm even willing to entertain that she has been duplicitous all along.


We want trade deals all over the world. The one we are discussing now just happens to be the EU one. [SEPH]: … and on terms that will ties us down from a customs perspective because we might be bringing in tariff free goods from, say, Singapore..

__________________
I'm sure that these are your legitimate concerns, Seph, but I do think you are making assumptions here. Theresa May has emphatically ruled out remaining under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, for a start. You don't know that anything will be 'given away' in terms of our fisheries policy, and I'm not sure which social policies you think will continue to be in place.

There are parts of the White Paper I would like to see clarified, but we will have to wait for that. In the meantime, we should not jump to conclusions.

Sephiroth 15-07-2018 17:35
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35954585)
I'm sure that these are your legitimate concerns, Seph, but I do think you are making assumptions here. Theresa May has emphatically ruled out remaining under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, for a start. You don't know that anything will be 'given away' in terms of our fisheries policy, and I'm not sure which social policies you think will continue to be in place.

There are parts of the White Paper I would like to see clarified, but we will have to wait for that. In the meantime, we should not jump to conclusions.
OB, I think you've also jumped to the conclusion that we can take May at her literal word. Whereas I've used judgement based on what's been happening to date and the weasel wording of the White Paper to conclude otherwise.

Hugh 15-07-2018 17:45
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Well, Brexit means Brexit.

OLD BOY 15-07-2018 18:33
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35954588)
OB, I think you've also jumped to the conclusion that we can take May at her literal word. Whereas I've used judgement based on what's been happening to date and the weasel wording of the White Paper to conclude otherwise.
So it doesn't matter what May says. You will disregard these comments and believe something else. That is your right, I suppose, but I prefer to take people at their word and read what documents actually say.

From what I can see so far, all May is doing is trying to get a favourable trade deal with Brussels. Outside of ECJ jurisdiction, outside of the EU, common market and customs union, and an end to free movement.

What's wrong with that?

heero_yuy 15-07-2018 18:40
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Quote from OLD BOY:


From what I can see so far, all May is doing is trying to get a favourable trade deal with Brussels. Outside of ECJ jurisdiction, outside of the EU, common market and customs union, and an end to free movement.

What's wrong with that?
Except that you always get that feeling that we're being sold out to the EU as so many times before. :rolleyes:

Sephiroth 15-07-2018 19:11
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
I second the above.

OLD BOY 15-07-2018 19:38
Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35954602)
Except that you always get that feeling that we're being sold out to the EU as so many times before. :rolleyes:
I know, and I think that is what all Brexiteers, including me, are worried about. However, so far, Theresa May has not said anything that alarms me. Let's see how it goes. If those red lines start to get fuzzy, I will be joining with all the hardliners, screaming for WTO.

But do you really think she will commit an act of political suicide? People would not stand for it, and you can already see a flavour of the kind of reaction you will get from the public if we don't get a proper Brexit. Theresa May's ratings have plummeted in the expectation she will foul up. If she doesn't, and we get the true Brexit we want, just watch those ratings soar again.


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