Re: Brexit discussion
 

Intervene in what way? By saying 'game over we're staying in'?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That's not how Parliamentary Democracy works....

The Referendum said we should leave, and we should all accept that - the Parliamentary Democracy bit is that it shouldn't be a deal that beggars the country, or splits up the United Kingdom; under Parliamentary Democracy, the Government of the Day answers to the House of Commons - Parliament controls the executive by passing or rejecting its Bills and by forcing Ministers of the Crown to answer for their actions.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Intervene as in how the word is defined:

You elect Parliament to govern the country. You give them your authority to make decisions on your behalf. That is sort of how this stuff works. If you do not allow Parliament to validate and assess any outcome of the process the Referendum started then we do not have what the Leavers were so passionate about i.e. a sovereign Parliament able to decide and enact UK law.

Sort of ironic isn't it?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There is something to be said for the Swiss 'direct democracy' way of doing things. Referenda can be called by the people if there's enough support to block new laws and/or change the constitution.

Four referenda a year must be exhausting though!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Don't the Gov get the last say on Brexit considering all the in fighting at the moment and facing the fact the EU is messing us about at the min we arent that long away now from actually leaving and don't appear to have got much from all the talks so far. unless there is a lot we don't know about yet that hasn't been given out to the general public

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The additional 1.4m of their number are unfortunately still doing just that, fearful that Brexit will never happen.

---------- Post added 20-06-2018 at 00:02 ---------- Previous post was 19-06-2018 at 23:59 ----------

I think you're right to point out that the talks aren't making much progress of late, particularly on the evidence of today's news.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8406511.html

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I guess the reason we're not progressing much is because the EU don't want us to.
Maybe if they conceded a little here and there things would progress faster?

But that's not really in their agenda is it, they want the cake, plate and all the crumbs from underneath the table too :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

On the subject of progress, an update was published Yesterday. Here is the statement from the Government - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/d...-19-march-2018 Here is the statement from the European Commission - http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4217_en.htm and here is the joint statement on progress - https://assets.publishing.service.go..._June_2018.pdf

Pretty dense reading!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Oh, the irony..... :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

well I guess that all depends where you're looking, and where from ;)

My personal opinion is the EU are doing all they can to keep their claws in the UK, that's probably a biased view though, as I didn't - and still don't - want any part of it :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Comedy gold. :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Latest development in the Commons:

Brexit: Theresa May wins 'meaningful vote' battle

Curious outcome ...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Anyone Fancy a job?

Linky

Note part of the role is establishing a negotiating team. Only 9 months to go, no pressure then...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes democracy is a bit of a bugger when it doesn't go ones way .

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ah, getting nervous that Parliament might have a say in the future of the country? Wrong sort of democracy isn't it?

---------- Post added at 22:14 ---------- Previous post was at 22:13 ----------

Love the part where "knowledge of airspace and the aviation sector is an advantage but not necessary" :) No need for an expert then ...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well wording it like that gives them the safe option of putting a puppet in place doesn't it. Giving the job to an 'expert' may lead to things they don't necessarily want ;)

Just my opinion of course, there's nothing underhand or corrupt about anything concerning politics :p: :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's alright, our transport secretary will have things covered ;)

Saw the salary range BTW; £62,519 - £70,859. Really going to attract the cream of the crop there...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I'm not nervous about anything to do with parliamentary democracy .

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Parliament should be carrying out the will of the electorate, given the result of the referendum. Parliament does not exist to actually thwart the will of the people!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Does rather depend on what the will of the people means. Logically we should include those who were too young to vote in the referendum. But I am sure that all the brexiteers would call foul.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No quite. Parliament is there to govern the country on half of the electorate. If they determine that the deal returned from Brussels is not in the best interests of the country then they have a duty to intervene.

This does come down to just dogma for some people: "I must Leave irrespective of the cost to me personally, my family, the people who did not want this and the country. The detail is secondary to the principle. I must Leave at all costs"

Sad times ..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No deal back on the table where it needed to be, was crazy to have removed your biggest threat

Thwart, hearing that word makes me think we are back in the 1930's, which I imagine isn't far of the time a lot of brextremists would like to be in anyway

Wonder how keen people will be if it's effects actually start to noticeably hit them, I'd be quite keen to know what people will be prepared to sacrifice to leave, I think we've all accepted we'll be a tiny bit poorer but what if it's worse than that

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not entirely accurate. Parliament isn’t answerable to a written constitution, interpreted by a Supreme Court. If it has any duty to intervene then it could be construed as a moral duty only, not a legal one.

The issue here is that parliament is sovereign, the only limitation being that it cannot bind its successors by any decision it takes. We don’t have an act of Parliament describing the authority or otherwise of a referendum, and even if we did, such a need act could not prevent Parliament from overriding it.

Referendums are alien to our evolving, uncodified constitution so its not surprising that there is this tension around the authority vested in them. What we do have, however, in the absence of a written constitution, is a very powerful sense of precedent and convention. Parliament is not, and cannot be, bound by any law or referendum result, in any legal sense, but the political power behind the referendum result, granted it by an act of Parliament and by the actions of our politicians before, during and after the vote, is difficult to resist.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I doubt there will be much sacrifice going on at all.

The affluent amongst us may notice a small increase in Rolex prices or the cost of that new Maserati. Exotic foreign holidays may be a tad more expensive but still easily affordable.

The poorer folk will just carry on getting further into debt buying the latest iPhone that they want but don't need, and possibly decide to keep that old Vauxhall Zafira for another year instead of trading up to an 08 plate Astra. Primark may see a rise in footfall :D

Seriously . . I don't envisage much change to peoples lifestyles at all, been there done that etc

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You are right of course, a moral duty if not a legal one. Referenda have always been avoided wherever possible because they lead to situations like this.

If Lemmings voted to leap over a small gap that they were promised was just small and easy to cross, are you then duty bound to at least ask them, once you all realise that there is indeed a cliff there instead, to consider their decision again? Or do you just watch them jump according to their original decision? The bad news is that they have tied themselves to you!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Get to the back you'll have something to land on ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Nothing to see here, folks. It'll be just fine, trust me. :rolleyes:
https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/06/6.jpg
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/pres...-scenario.html

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Nah pretty much all of what you said is fairly accurate actually. Your sarcasm is mostly true.

Just if someone who is rich says it, it will come off as snobbery / elitism etc.

---------- Post added 22-06-2018 at 00:11 ---------- Previous post was 21-06-2018 at 23:51 ----------

Technically Parliament is the will of the people.

Each individual constituency voted for a member of parliament - they all sit in the house now.

Some things were done as a result of it - that stuff led to May continuing on as PM.

So when the will of the people is raw in form, every member of the House is in office, having been elected.

When people tamper about with the system, you end up with what Cameron had - a coalition government with a parent (Tory) and child (Liberal Democrat) partnership. Or like in this instance, May who is propped up by the DUP.

The raw will of the people gave May no mandate, no majority and with a plurality of the MPs in the house, she decided to command a government and ended up ummm....thwarting the will of the people who chose not to give her a majority?

Now obviously there is so much cringe in that post, I would need to take a bath to cleanse myself from all the filth of it but to anyone who continues "this will of the people" stuff, there is an equally nauseating response.

I wish people would grow a spine on every level and stop harping on about it as if it is some sacred / holy cow. Like the Democrats keep saying that Hillary got 3 million more votes...clearly the EC and parliamentary mechanisms for winning elections and forming governments exist for a reason but seriously cut the crap about Parliament carrying out the will of the electorate. Only if they were to do that, they would have thrown May out of the window by now. Yet it is your lot who keep her hanging around - who else would want this mes on their hands?

---------- Post added at 00:24 ---------- Previous post was at 00:11 ----------

I don't know whether they do or not but it is hardly incumbent upon them to do it for Britain, is it?

Arrrrgghhhh - why should they? They have their 4 basic principles - why do they have to compromise, on anything? Davis came up with that same boat load of crap to Barnier, and what did Barnier tell him to go do?

How about this. Every time May says that she has a red line, how about everyone tells her to just "concede a little here and there?"

I mean she already does....ohhhh I get it!

Because we have a spineless leader who surrenders at every go, you want them to have one to level up the playing field!

Of course, that makes sense now.

Carry on.

Ummm...it's their cake. We are the ones who want a permanent Icing (trade) flour (financial) and egg (security) co-operation from them.

All the while saying that we don't have to contribute anything to it, don't help make it and all boast about having our cake, eating it and of course ignore the fact that such analogies are really masquerading for the fact that the size of our cakes are significantly less than their's with a way lower caloric count.

---------- Post added at 00:33 ---------- Previous post was at 00:24 ----------

Oh dear Lord.

I never thought that Spicy's fight with the media after Trump's inauguration would actually have some purpose to show a point for another political argument ever again, but here we are.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...fering-weather

Yeah, seriously.

I love Spicy, but seriously - that was a stretch and then some.

However you have somehow managed to take that analogy, to a whole new level.

I m speechless.

---------- Post added at 00:40 ---------- Previous post was at 00:33 ----------

Yeah I thought that the weather analogies were something...Hugh has a lot to answer for, lol.

---------- Post added at 00:46 ---------- Previous post was at 00:40 ----------

Oh I dunno lol...chickens crossed roads at Dover / Calais for decades and ended up dead / roadkill / meat for those in the jungle.

Now with queues and lorries backed up to a standstill after March of next year around the ports, chickens crossing roads in front of lorries has never looked like having more of a chance of success!

Boris even predicted as much in his latest audio recording.

Means that Gove definitely won't have to make the decision on whether to import in Chlorinated chickens or not. So in that sense, leaving the EU has definitely worked out for Gove - chickens everywhere and Kamikaze analogies in threads continue.

:p::p::p:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

More like the bottom of the barrel you mean.;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Airbus could be leaving. North Wales probably going to be the worst hit but Bristol and Portsmouth have stuff too I think.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This is what you get when the government has created its own shambolic mess over the Brexit negotiations...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

tbf the Govt. advised against Brexit. The people that caused this mess are the ones that believed the lies and voted for it. No one else to blame.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Airbus has said it will reconsider its investments in the U.K if there’s no transition deal post Brexit. Not quite the same thing.

I don’t know if you’re aware of exactly what goes on at Broughton, but it was part of my news reporting patch back in the day so I’m acquainted with it a little. The operation is enormous, and highly technical, employing large numbers of highly skilled men and women who manufacture wings for a number of Airbus planes.

Such is the expertise at the site that when the A380 was developed, they chose to build the wings there even at the inconvenience of having to work out how to transport them by road to the nearest port so they could then go by coastal barge to France for assembly.

They simply aren’t going to move the manufacture of any current product out of North Wales. It would cause massive disruption and cost to their business.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Fair enough but if they start reducing their investments it becomes a matter of slowly winding it down doesn't it? No big sharp shock but the slow starvation of investment. New equipment is built elsewhere until the point where there is nothing left to do here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ears-f6jnc7x2j

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think because things move so slowly and other factors are involved, you'd need something like Airbus relocating for people to realise the impact of Brexit.
From the company's own website
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/pres...-scenario.html

As reported in today's Times:
"Airbus prepares to take flight
The European aerospace company Airbus is set to become the first big manufacturer to pull investment from Britain after losing patience with Theresa May's stalled Brexit negotiations. Airbus, which generates £1.7 billion in tax revenues, is preparing to abandon plans to build aircraft wings at its British plants and move production to China, the US or elsewhere in Europe. It is making a series of investment decisions this summer because of worries that EU safety certifications will not apply from March next year and uncertainty over customs checks."

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 ----------

It's worth reading Airbus's risk assessment, including this:
http://www.airbus.com/company/worldw...k.html#Economy
Of course, some people believe that the talks are making good progress and everyone else is deluded.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Whereas others believe everything’s an unmitigated disaster, and those who think otherwise are deluded. ;)

Thankfully there is a broad middle ground where it’s possible to be both frustrated at Teresa May’s ineptitude yet also confident that such is the scale and impact of Brexit that nobody can afford to mess it up; both sides know this and when the day comes the EU will agree to fudge it one way or another, just as it always does.

It’s worth bearing in mind, by the way, that every risk assessment ever carried out by a school planning a trip has described the potential for death or serious injury. Describing a risk of something happening doesn’t mean it will happen or even that it’s likely.

As I said earlier, there is simply no way for Airbus to shift wing production to a location within the EU in the time available. Regardless of what happens next March, those wings will still be being made in Broughton this time next year and the year after that.

Also, consider the implications of the Times article you quoted. They’re claiming to be worried about tariffs and the loss of EU certifications and an EU supply chain whilst also pondering a production shift to China or the USA? That doesn’t even begin to stack up.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It would be a bit like the way Japanese TV manufacturers left the UK. Their existing cathode ray models continued to be made here. When they introduced their LCD models, they opened new factories in Eastern Europe to produce them and closed their British ones.
We've got a transition period of a couple of years. How long it would take a company like Airbus to up sticks I'm not sure but I'm sure sufficient of the workforce would be prepared to upsticks given that their skills wouldn't be in demand in many other places in the UK.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Airbus, like any large manufacturer would need to balance friction vs. costs of both moving and manufacture. The cost of moving is pretty much set and Airbus already manufactures in China and US so it would be more expansion than setting up new plants.

The UK is an expensive place to makes things. This will be balanced with frictionless movement between the UK and Toulouse so things even up. Airbus could move wing manufacture to the EU zone where the costs would be similar but frictionless or somewhere cheap and accept the friction costs. Expensive and friction doesn't add up.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

A good way of analysing the situation.
Some further insightful analysis from Paratus in the comments section of the FT.

https://www.ft.com/content/595220cc-...6-75a27d27ea5f

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Airbus: 'No-deal' Brexit would be 'chaos at the borders'
The company would pull out of the UK if Britain leaves the single market and customs union without a transition agreement.

https://news.sky.com/story/airbus-no...rders-11413180

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Isn't it a bit more than that? They will pull out if the transition agreement does not lead to a permanent deal where there is no 'friction at the borders."

Of course, if Mrs May tries to edge towards such a deal to keep big business happy, she has Mr Mogg preparing to tear down such a deal:

DO NOT CAVE: Brexiteers will vote DOWN deal if May gives in to EU demands, warns Rees-Mogg

How would be the Prime Minister at a time like this?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Who would indeed? She's stuck between a rock (keeping business in the country) and a hard place (the hard Brexiters who are happy to throw the economy to the dogs for the sake of what they believe in.)

Public-facing companies have been reluctant to talk too much in public as they're afraid it could impact their sales and businesses that just sell to other businesses don't have much public awareness. However, Airbus does have strong public recognition so hopefully the Government and general public will sit up and take notice to stop the company leaving.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Think it's time TM had a holiday, doesn't she look tired ? ;)

Last time it was walking in North Wales. Bit of fresh air did her the world of good. She had the brilliant idea of calling an election to make her strong and stable....

Stuff the Brexiteers TM, they're all bonkers. It may be damage limitation, but just get the best deal for Britain is my advice. End of your career, but you've had a good run and a bit put by in the bank :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Doubt she'd be welcome in North Wales again given the possibility of Airbus leaving the country but she does need a holiday!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I am kind of surprised that more people have not stated that their companies will be leaving the UK, post EU referendum. With Scottish independence the nationalists called it "project fear" but I think that it was accurate that corporations would leave, jobs would go and the currency was an issue. In terms of the EU, if financial passporting rights are indeed gone that is a huge reality that the UK financial services sector will have to factor in. Jobs will end up being lost, companies will move huge amounts of capital overseas and that is to be expected. People now factor that in, as a given.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Companies are starting to grow a pair. BMW has just done this.
The car giant BMW has followed plane maker Airbus in warning of the adverse consequences of Brexit.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It is interesting the way that you worded that - "growing a pair". While yes, I would like if they did stand up to the nationalists of their own volition, I kind of see it more as just the reality of it all setting in. I can't see this as being anything other than just free market policies now setting in, you? I mean if you were looking at somewhere that had a stable political, monetary and fiscal environment in to grow jobs, start businesses and have a stable growth environment, where would you look to? Would you stay in the UK? It just looks like economic common sense, not anything like what was dubbed as "project fear".

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I don't see many 'British' companies in these lists that are now coming out.

oh sorry, they were sold down the river years ago :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No airbus will be leaving without wings .;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

All a load of tosh. Keep this real: with "friends" like Juncker, Barnier, Verhofstadt, Merkel and the two faces of Macron we shouldn't want to have anything to do with those vultures.

We are more than 60 million people and the UK can make it all work, with or without the EU - and for that matter the perfidious Irish PM.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This FT article cites British-owned and head-quartered companies Unipart, Ineos and Avon Valley Precision Engineering.
https://www.ft.com/content/ee84acd0-...4-408cfba4327c

---------- Post added at 22:55 ---------- Previous post was at 22:51 ----------

Yes, the skilled aircraft workers there can move to East Anglia and displace the Eastern European fruit-pickers.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think you are keeping it unreal and in denial somewhat. Look around you ..

BTW, I though we were perfidious one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's more a case of time running out. Companies would have had to make announcements earlier one way or the other if the Government had struck a deal. It hasn't and so they really have to work in the dark. I think the seal may have been broken and we'll continue to hear warnings from more companies.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There was no deal to be struck - at least not at this stage. The nasty EU wants to punish us for our democratic decision.

It has made the guvmin in look stupid because we see little progress. Leave means leave not half in/half out. The guvmin say they are confident of a good deal on a leave means leave basis. If they know something we don’t, which is entirely possible, we might all get a surprise.

As to the principal Tory MP remoaners, they are anti-democratic in their behaviour; dishonest in their stated intentions; many of them miffed at being ousted by May from the cabinet.

Btw, if for any reason we do end up remaining in the EU, no worries, as long as we keep sticking picador sticks into Brussels.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Protesters to march on anniversary to demand second referendum.

Traitors at the event will include Tory rebel Anna Soubry, Labour MP David Lammy and Green Party co-leader Caroline Lucas.

Businesswoman Gina Miller, who took the Government to court over Brexit, will also give a speech in favour of a second third or even fourth referendum until she gets the answer she wants.;)

The real story here
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...my-Gina-Miller

Re: Brexit discussion
 

EU Referendum The Counting Results currently being re-run on BBC Parliament Channel as of right now... :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Still wondering what a 2nd referendum result is meant to represent. All those that want to remain will vote no to any deal whatever it is.


Any deal has to be right because it will never be changed. IE No deal is better than a bad deal, as with a "no deal", a reasonable deal can still be struck, but a "bad deal" can never be overturned.


You have to be extra careful in wording any agreement, because the EU can set its own rules for who is included as part of the EU. Eg Freedom of movement can be handed over to Ukraine and Turkey etc, without the UK having a say. Not that we have or had much of a say even within the EU. Whatever Germany and France say, goes.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Really Mick ? The World Cups on and it's sunny outside :D

Guess you have to go back that far to find things going well for the Brexiteers, all downhill since then !

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Seems they don't share Airbus' negativity.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes a French company, picking up the scraps the failed British Carillon. Not exactly a British success story or vote of confidence, just an opportunity to make money where we've failed.

Anyway the French don't want the Third World on their border. How are they going to turn back the tide of British immigrants (like Brexiteer Lord Lawson !) Close the tunnel now if I were them ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Nope not at all. Because we’re still leaving the EU and IT WON’T be downhill at all.

With the likes of Sweden, Poland and Italy all getting pissed off with the EU, we won’t be the only ones leaving the corrupted pile of garbage, AKA EU!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Throw troubles in Turkey into the mix too ;)

Oh, the Pro EU gang seem to have missed the news about yet another 'loan' to Greece . . to enable them to 'manage' their debt better :D :D

Mebbe Airbus could relocate to Greece and help them out :p:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If Airbus try to decamp the government should demand back the 100's of £millions they were given to set up here.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Lol, a French-owned pothole repairing company buying British competitors due to the low pound is hardly a replacement for thousands of skilled aircraft makers! :D

---------- Post added at 13:23 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

I appreciate you may have a slight hangover from yesterday's celebrations Papa but I'm not sure traitors is a term we use here.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Who can be redeployed to build planes for Britain or to build foreign planes we might wish to buy.

You need to respect the Brexit vote whether or not you like it. That's our democratic system.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

How on earth is your second point, a straw man, relevant to anything in the discussion? Debating Colas or Airbus is not disrespecting the Brexit vote. Closing down such debates is fundamentally unBritish and not what my forefathers fought for.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Your posting history in this thread is all about the harm to the UK that will arise from leaving the UK. Fair enough - it's your right.

But the thrust is clear - reverse Brexit if possible (even if you haven't said that directly it is obvious).

I've said that we're more than 60 million people. That's enough to make a success of our country with both its buying power and its in-house skills.

Remainers nibbling away at the democratically arrived at decision to leave the EU are a pest that we have to live with. Worst of all are those MPs who are determined to thwart the Referendum - they being the main hope of the remainers.

We should just get on with it and leave those crooks in Brussels behind us.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

IMHO Gina Miller need her citizen revoked and deported, she is only interested in her own business.

As I said before I don't care if Brexit costs me my job, we MUST fully leave the EU and not stay in any way whatsoever.


Airbus should get Red Bull to make their wings :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This says it all about the current Government's incompetent approach to business. :(
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ness-concerns/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That's going too far and is actually quite fascist. I supported Gina Miller's single handed fight to bring some degree of parliamentary say into the process OF LEAVING THE EU.

Of course that's being misused now to try and derail Brexit - and might indeed have been Miller's intention. But she had the right to pose a legal challenge and the law agreed with her case. We can't democratically rail against that.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Would you be in favour of leaving the EMA, ECA and EASA (medicines, chemicals and aviation agencies) The government wants to stay in those..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Absolutely but it does not mean that those who did not vote for Brexit should zip their mouth nor should they be called traitors.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Expressing an opinion is fine. Deliberately trying to derail the process to keep us effectively IN the EU is treason.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

How about the judges who found in her favour? Should their citizenship be revoked too?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Traitors ? Treason ? We're increasingly going down a Nazi road... Soon the Tower will be back in business? Brexiters need to look at the language they are using, and why they are easily ridiculed. Free speech is what we've fought 2 World Wars for.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You are right to call out those who come out with this fascist rubbish.

But please do not tar all Brexiters with that brush as you (possibly unintentionally) have done.

People here are going into the square root of Airbus, BMW and using it as an argument not to let the Referendum result prevail. Sure, try to get a good deal (those Brussels turds don't want us to have a reasonable deal); obviously no deal is better than a bad deal. As I say, the UK is of sufficient critical mass to make a thorough go of things.

But the nub of all this is are we to be the vassal state of the EU or do we plough our own furrow as a sovereign state?

I suspect that those remainers on this forum who are provoking this Project Fear stuff will avoid a direct answer to my question. Or they'll dance around it and change the question.

Just get on with Brexit.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Challenge accepted :) The EU was and is not a separate entity to the nation state. It’s the result of a series of treaties between countries to promote trade and foster a collaborative atmosphere. You can’t really be a vassal state of on organisation you help run. We have 73 MEPs and of course a seat on the EU council inhabited by Theresa May at present. We have a say in all decisions made and are pretty successful in this with well over 90% of the time being on the winning side in council votes.

If we choose something like EEA membership, then will will have the benefits but no say. Then I would agree that the term vassal state would apply but as a fully paid up member of the EU, no.

Why has it not worked for the UK population is the big question. In my opinion, there are a few answers which are not mutually exclusive. First, we have never been invaded in modern times and certainly did not suffer like other countries in the Second World War and Cold War. Being under the cosh of other states will focus the mind of cooperation being preferable to conflict. Of course, the counter argument is ‘what about Germany’? There is a collective institutional recognition of what nationalism does to a country and your average German will push back hard if you cite ‘Deutschland Uber Alles’.

The second reason, linked to the first as that we never really ‘took part’. Look at the turnouts for European elections. These elections were time time to make a protest vote with ‘no harm’. However, this meant that we have been under represented in the European Parliament by our own hands. Look at the attendance figures of our MEPs as an example.

The final reason is that it has been easy to blame ‘others’ for our own countries failings. The UK negotiated an opt out for signs to be posted on EU funded projects. The EU gave over £20m for the reconstruction of Manchester City centre after the 1996 bombing but you wouldn’t know. My mum lives in the wilds of Scotland and the local busses are funded by the EU as it is a deprived area and there’s no government funding. Hopefully of course, some of that sweet £350m will come in to replace that funding but I have my doubts.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yeah, not trying to persuade you, it was just my 10 cents as a remoaner ;) Even if you didn’t agree, did it restore your faith in having questions answered by the ‘other side’? If I didn’t answer your question, please let me know.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ah OK, I see what you’re getting at I think. Of your choices, my preferred option at present would be option 2, be in the EU but not as part of some kind of federal arrangement. Basically what David Cameron came back with, avoiding the ‘ever closer union’.

Obviously, we are very unlikely to be in the EU for much longer so, from a business perspective, working for an international company, selling to other international companies, being in a customs union and single market would be ideal. Hopefully having some say in those would be great! Doing business with non-EU/EEA countries is a massive pain.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So in this post, you said:

I even defended you in this post by saying:

Now I am assuming that it is your own interests / buisness to protect your family members / siblings from having pictures of what is up their skirt taken by someone.

Correct?

So by your own definition, if it is your own business to protect your family (and nothing else though I assume that you might be advocating to try protect the interests of every woman?) then are you suggesting that your advocacy is a deport-able offense??

(The irony, that if it was an illegal immigrant who was the culprit yet you were the one who got deported lol).

I am confused, did you mean Gina's business interests? But even on that front, it makes no sense. The whole point of leaving the EU is so that as Brits we become the most selfish nation on the planet and protect only what is ours, take control of what we can, and so on.

Isn't she just assimilating with the selfishness of your average two bit nationalist?

Or are you suggesting that we should engage in acts of voluntary repatriation for those who don't share the mentality of the state first doctrine?

Your post makes absolutely no sense to me and this part, please explain / elaborate only right now Gina Miller seems to have the mechanisms of capitalism worked out and you seem to be suggesting that she (as a citizen) is deported, having her citizenship revoked...(while giving evidence of your own well meaning acts of selfishness, all at the same time).

Please explain. (I swear I can't be getting your comments this wrong and you seem like a sincere and nice guy so correct me on this, please. :))

As much as I hate to say it (and not in personal regard to you, I hope that your job works out) but I do kind of want to see some of the real life consequences of leaving the EU come home. It is not very Christian of me to wish ill but a little "reality" for those who believe in the cake and eat it / land of milk and honey stuff would not be a bad thing. Mick said to me earlier that no amount of anything would make him regret his vote / wish that he voted to remain. And I was glad of that - like I am about what you just said. I like principle and people who fight on grounds of sincerity - you are not a hypocrite and are willing to put your money where your mouth is.

Like I said in my previous post above, it is the reality of the situation that businesses and jobs are going to disappear - that is not fearmongering. I am glad that people like you are willing to stand up and say "if my job goes, then so be it". That I can respect. :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yeah and to what nation would they be sent? Voluntary repatriation...to where?

:erm:

Natural born citizens with no other citizenship...I can't imagine Hom3r was being serious in his post. :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

To be fair though David, you don't like your job...

I have to admit a degree of admiration though regardless.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That would be my stance too.

To clarify - discussing the negative impacts that Brexit is cited to bring or has brought is not some kind of conspiracy to thwart Brexit. What I find particularly interesting is how the Irish border can be solved. That tin can has been well and truly kicked down the road and because it's not being discussed right now, doesn't mean it's gone away. A hard Brexit would mean a hard border no ifs and buts and maybes. Theresa May has promised no hard border but David Davis has now said that a hard Brexit is a possibility. So many contradictory statements from our government.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

A hard borderin Ireland would be introduced by the EU not the Uk. And serve them right. When Ireland was up schmitt creek in 2008, we bailed our friends out with a 7 billion loan. That’s how they thank us by playng the Good Friday card (the Agreementdoesn’t even mention the border).

The border thing is just an EU wheeze to keep us in the Customs Union.

Just as well that May’s backstop is covered by nothing is agree till everything is agreed.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Factually incorrect. To trade on WTO rules, you need a hard border. So the UK and Ireland would need one in place in the event of a no-deal Brexit. So, nothing's being played, this is a reality.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Thank you - the kind of response from you does set my mind at ease that the majority of people here do not espouse the views that Hom3r was advocating and I was unsure if he meant it or not - I assumed that it was either a very crass joke or just flippant sarcasm.

The definition was perfect on your part - his comments specifically espouse the doctrine of fascism.

Yeah it sadly does pass off the impression of what Roger Helmer did through his parliamentary run - tar and feather the entire party of UKIP as voluntary repatriation proponents when nothing could be further from the truth.

Farage of all people even said after the debate that the first thing that Britain should do is unilaterally guarantee the rights of all EU citizens otherwise it makes Britain look like a banana republic. Sadly with views like hom3r's (if serious) make the UK look exactly like that - labelled as a banana Republic.

Thank you again for your post - it would indeed be wrong to see everyone who voted leave labelled as those of having crazy views and I hate the idea of that - whether it is in regards to gender / race / nationality / age etc etc.

More sane people who voted leave coming forward with their own opinions / views will expand the debate and the more voices the more rational the issue will be, because most of us still have faith that the decency of human beings (whatever side of the aisle that you are on) will prevail - shutting out people from the debate / out of the country is exactly what you described it as - the precursor to fascism.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You may well be right about WTO rules. But that was fathest from my mind. Up front was the EU/Irish ploy at using the Good Friday Agreement as a means of making life easier for Ireland. The perfidious Varadkar had WTO farthest from his mind when he commenced his perfidy.

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:09 ----------

Your kind words about me are appreciated.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You say "do not tar all Brexiters with that brush" but then you paint yourself with another: "those Brussels turds". Using such language encourages no-one to enter into a serious adult debate.

---------- Post added at 16:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:45 ----------

You keep saying this but having that many people in your country does not preordain economic prosperity. Don't forget a lot of our "in-house skills" as you put it are vulnerable to Multinationals deciding to off shore them if the economic outlook is not favourable to them.

The industry I work in, IT, has seen many highly skilled UK workers made redundant not because they were not skilled or productive but because the company wanted to employ cheaper staff in Eastern Europe, India, China, etc.

---------- Post added at 16:55 ---------- Previous post was at 16:51 ----------

Just a reminder that we are a sovereign state, just not in the way you want.

I had thought we had left behind the childish Project Fear labelling. If you object to the information presented, just explain why it is wrong and present your own counter argument, backed by facts.

---------- Post added at 17:02 ---------- Previous post was at 16:55 ----------

Not true, I for one tried to reply to your assertion that the EU is a project designed to make Germany richer. You just do not like the answers.

I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago and after visiting the various WWII institutions, can clearly understand why they are motivated in the way they are and why they are so nervous of the rise of nationalism across Europe.

As Churchill said in 1957:

I feel he would saddened by the attitude of many in the UK ..

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------

What is it with "perfidy"? :)

Don't you see the job of the EU, which includes Eire, is to get the best outcome for their members, not for us. We are the ones who are divorcing them! Maybe we can get a divorce on the grounds of our mental incapacity ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The problem is, Andrew, you see every difficulty as an insurmountable problem.

As an example, one simple way of overcoming the border issue between Ireland and Northern Ireland is to give NI membership of the WTO in its own right. That particular solution was put forward by Pascal Lamy himself, who is the former Head of the WTO.

As I have said many times before on this thread, solutions to intractable problems are often found by thinking outside of the box.

The NI border issue is a complete red herring and is not a 'barrier' to a successful Brexit. Solutions are available, although Barnier seems to enjoy rejecting everything put in front of him. He'd better make the most of it, because the clock is ticking (tick tock :D) and it will soon be time for him to get real and stop messing about.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Barney knows that, it's bluff pure and simple and I like the rhetoric we are using, no deal is back on the table, as is the prospect of losing our contributions fully and having a neighbour who doesn't give a toss about his fair and level playing field. All this talk of businesses leaving is all to do with money to, they're worried their bottom line will be effected, that's why imo the end deal will look remarkably similar to what we have now in all respects and the only people that'll upset is the extremists on both sides and who frankly gives a toss about them

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I did not say that they had something to do with each other. Your use of such adjectives to describe the EU betrays a lack of objectivity. You seem blinded by your hatred of the Eu to assess what might be a reasonable compromise.

You equate the use of the "turds in Brussels trying to screw us" as "serious adult debate"? Nil points from the UK jury :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

When May was given the option of leaving NI in the CU to avoid a hard border, she said that would likely infringe upon UK sovereignty / might lead to a different differential deal for different parts of the union that not only angered the Scottish nationalists but apparently could risk the Union altogether ; now you are suggesting giving specific membership to NI in regards to the WTO and apparently that is not an issue of UK sovereignty / going to anger the SNP etc???

How is that possible - without involving an analogy of having cake, eating it too - drinking milk with it and having honey etc. I want to hear this....I can't wait.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I don't see every difficulty as an insurmountable problem, Old Boy. That's unfair. There were a number of quick wins with Brexit like equal settlement rights for EU27 citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU 27 countries.

I do think that the Irish border presents a very, very difficult and fascinating situation to solve.
Giving Northern Ireland membership of the WTO won't solve the issue. NI and Eire need something akin to a customs union and single market for a soft border and this on its own would not achieve it. That's what you'll find Pascal Lamy was talking about. This of course creates a hard border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and is unacceptable to the DUP.
The following quote gives some insight into Pascal Lamy's thoughts which I think you will find instructive.
The Irish border situation has been unsolved for two years now so 24 months' thinking hasn't come up with a solution acceptable to the Brexiters, DUP or the Irish Republic.

I'm not sure why you're bothererd about Barnier. The UK Government hasn't actually proposed a solution to the border issue yet due to internal divisions. Both solutions under consideration are unacceptable to Ireland and the EU.
https://www.ft.com/content/f67f71f4-...1-31da4279a601

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You may think that the use of such adjectives do not weaken what you're saying but that doesn't mean that they don't.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

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