re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Benefit sanctions, mobile phone tariffs, 'because Tories' ...

Man have we really become so pathetic as a Country.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't see why benefit sanctions would be imposed :confused:

---------- Post added at 12:09 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------

We need to grow a pair, get out there and lay our own path instead of doing it by proxy through the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And how would they know?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Whilst I'm sure before the vote there will be some threat levelled at benefit claimants why should they escape, I don't believe sanctions will be targeted at those who vote leave and as Hugh said how would they know. I think your being generous Damien in relation to Osbourne I don't think he thought of this as a tactic to get discussion back onto the economy it was a threat pure and simple and the worst type a conservative Chancellor should attempt. If there is a momentum towards leave remains negative campaigning is a big reason for it.

We are going to be in such a mess politically after this referendum that only a general election has a chance of sorting it to any degree. Given the options though sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't and between british mp's looking for ways to overturn the referendum if it's to leave and the eurocrats looking for ways on their end to overturn it we need strong politicians to do any negotiating and where they are coming from I don't know.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If nothing else maybe it'll finally sort out the big Tory problem of Pro/Anti EU sides it's been one of their biggest failings for many years.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I see Geldof has got in on the remain act - surprised he had time what with all the refugees he's been taking care of... :rolleyes:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londo...-a3272161.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not really surprised. These people travel around all the time so benefits them if we stay in. Be very surprised to hear a Celeb come out against Remain.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yeah, shouting expletives and making obscene gestures at working people who are campaigning to save their livelihoods. Classy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why be so antagonistic arranging a boat to disrupt something else is just pathetic but about what we have come to expect in this referendum campaign never miss a chance to do something pathetic rather then state a valid case. Really can't end fast enough for me so sick and tired of the ridiculous tit for tat rhetoric and silly games, this is the future of the uk being decided here not a party and the conduct on all sides has been disrespectful to the people voting.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I won't listen to him or anyone outside the UK, as they are generally thinking about themselves.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As we get nearer the vote there will be some barrel scrapping by both sides trying to convince how to vote but I doubt Bob geldof is going to be a plus for remain.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The scene from Geldof's boat.

Raa, raa, raa, we're going to smash the oinks.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/06/30.jpg

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not a good look, is it.

Someone elsewhere I visit was asking earlier, when did Geldof stop fighting the establishment and start defending it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why Brexit and just turn our backs on the EU. Surely its best to remain part of it and try to sort out problems and try to improve things from the inside instead of looking in!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just like so many of the others celebrity mouths who talk the talk, when he started to like being rich too much to give any of it up - in his case a long time ago.



---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------

Been there tried that. Not really worked has it. If they won't change when we're in or even when we considering leaving, what makes you think they'll ever change, especially when they'll feel they've successfully called our bluff.

If we stay in they'll believe they don't have to change. If we leave I'm sure others will follow and that's what will force change.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Stephen I spent ten years hoping the EU would abandon the federal superstate as I felt that trade and diplomacy wise the eec was a benefit but it just isn't going to happen because the problem that prevents all other solutions is that those leading the EU only see their way. If you try to suggest far less implement reform it gets shut down fast and it's back on the one course they have decided for everyone. We are the 2nd largest EU contributer and the 5th largest economy in the world and they weren't prepared to budge a mm on meaningful reform it is clear that only something like brexit may give the other member states the power to actually force reform.

A Europe of strong independent and sovereign states can be so beneficial for the world and each other and that's where I want things and I'm prepared to vote leave because I see no other way to get to a better Europe. There are a few saying "stay in and work to reform it" but none of them when asked can tell you how to get that reform because they know unless there is a shift at the top in the EU there will be no reform or change. If anyone can tell me how by staying in we will be able to reform the EU I'll listen but so far it hasn't happened even though many voting leave would change if real meaningful reform could be achieved as contrary to what remain thinks many of us in the leave camp are very pro Europe just not the way the EU is doing things.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well we have more of a chance if we stay in it rather than turning our backs running away and shutting our selves off.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Really?

Disappointed ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Didn't we try that with David Cameron's tour of Europe and negotiations only a few months ago?

It simply did not work. It will never work. The EU are not interested in anything other than a United States of Europe. It's that simple.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Google has released data on its search results suggesting how the vote might go:

http://www.alphr.com/google/1003697/...rce=newsletter

---------- Post added at 23:47 ---------- Previous post was at 23:45 ----------

Someone pointed out during Gove's question time that the EU leaders bent over backwards for Greece, yet what did we get from Cameron's "negotiations"?

---------- Post added at 23:53 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------

This is what I don't understand about the other European leaders, they constantly talk about "more Europe", a central Treasury, a EU army (coming soon) and many other things, yet none of them, as far as I can gather, want a Federal Europe.

I follow the Germans most closely as lets be honest the other countries are just sheep. And Merkel has repeatedly said she doesn't, nor do the German people want a federal Europe. Which begs the question, what do they want?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's the second time you've used the "shutting ourselves off" rubbish Stephen nobody I've seen on leave has talked that way it's usually how remain refers to leave voters. Most leavers far from shutting ourselves off are enthusiastic about greater global trade and diplomacy how is that shutting ourselves off, we want continuing trade and diplomatic cooperation with Europe how is that shutting ourselves off???. These petty taunts pretty much sum up this whole referendum both sides more interested in scoring silly little points off each other then giving voters decent information.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson are the establishment too. This is a fight between the establishment and we're all just involved as well.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well indirectly that is what leave has said. Closing the borders and stopping immigrants coming in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It could be that people wanting to stay in can't think for themselves and need someone else to do it for them a bit like the Gov it makes life a lot more easier for them to be not accountable for any law changes when they can blame the EU for it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That is just not true. Please listen to what leave are actually saying, not what remain are telling you, leave said.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Stopping uncontrolled immigration is very different from stopping all immigration.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Simple. We have tried that for 40 years and it hasn't worked. We have been outvoted around 75 times in recent years so just how would staying in change that?

---------- Post added at 07:13 ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 ----------

We are not shutting ourselves off. The idea would be to get better trade conditions without all the red tape that goes along with it. The Germans ain't gonna stop selling us cars are they? They need the trade and the EU need what we have so it makes our negotiating power a little stronger. Having said that, other countries make cars too which gives us the advantage of going there should we not get a good deal. This applies to other trade too but at least we'd have the choice to go elsewhere, a choice we don't have now.

We're not turning our backs on Europe. Geographically, we are and will always be part of Europe. We are turning our backs on an undemocratic Super State who want one big country where we can all live happily ever after. It's a fantasy. In theory it's a good idea but then again, so was Communism in it's true form until people corrupted it. It was never meant to be a dictatorship society. Think of the word and what it actually means. The same would happen, and actually is happening with an European Super State.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

its beyond economical repair .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The UK have and always will have a closed border policy. Even EU Citizens have to show their visa or passport coming into this country as do our own Citizens so that's not much of an argument, is it? Try this one for an argument for leaving: I voted against the Common market in 1975 not because I didn't agree with it but because I could see where it would lead. I've seen nothing in the past 44 years to change my mind. Well, not that we couldn't have done on our own so the argument is this, Why pay the EU to do what they have done when we could have easily achieved the same reforms on our own?

On the news this morning migrants found in a lorry in Britain said "We're from Europe, let us in." Come on m8 get a grip. You don't seem to have thought much about this subject at all. It seems you are a remainer but have done no research on what staying or leaving might mean for the UK. If you had, you wouldn't be making these statements. Still, you could have said you were voting remain because of the roaming charges. ROFL!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well I have done plenty of research in to the subject and am also very intelligent.

Most people that cross borders or try to live in other countries after fleaing their own aren't doing so the the fun of it. They are doing due to fear of dying in their own country or starving to death. We as human beings can't just say no, go back where you came from. We have to do whats right and show compassion.

Ihighly doubt our various UK governments would have been able to do half the stuff being in the EU has brought in. Its them that privatised everything and destroyed so many industries! Can't really blame the EU for all of that.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Through its demonstrable intransigence over 40 years, the EEC/EU has proved you wrong.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Alternatively, we have been on the 'winning' side 627 times (86% of the votes)

I thought the EU was undemocratic anyway, that's what Brexit people are saying, why are there votes?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What, those coming from Europe? That's the ones we want control of

---------- Post added at 10:06 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

Those were British things I agree and not very good. I meant things like workers rights.

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 ----------

It's a complicated animal and would take too long to debate it but those who set the rules are not elected by the people to those positions though they are elected by those whom we have elected. The point is we have been outvoted on the important things not the trivial things. It will never change. Remain go on about 'A reformed Europe.' What exactly does this mean? They want us to remain in a 'Reformed Europe' but it isn't reformed so what are remain voting for? More of the same and a lot worse.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But at what point do we consider that the changes to our way of life and standard of living etc. caused by admitting huge numbers of migrants from around the globe are too great? Your intent is admirable but the scale of world poverty, war, pestilence and plague is vast. There are hundreds of millions of desperate needy people in Sub Saharan Afirca alone. Clearly they can't all be accommodated here or in the EU so what are you going to do when the limit (whatever that might be) is reached? We have had a perfect example in Germany of what happens when well meaning people offer 'welcomes' and as we all know, our tolerance, hospitality and generosity tend to taper off rapidly when our own lives are adversely affected, jobs taken, wages undercut, areas changed, services overstretched etc. etc.

I dare say that if a homeless person knocked on your door this evening and asked for help you'd give him a few quid or some food. Would you keep doing that if he came back every day? What if he told his homeless mates and they came with hi asking for help? Would you let them stay over? There is a limit to generosity and we all have our own. Equally so on a national level. IIRC the UK is the world's second largest donator of foreign aid and as such I think we're already doing a hell of a lot more than many nations. Merkel's Germany isn't facing the problem we are - our population has been growing rapidly for years whilst Germany's has been in relative decline. If they were in our position they certainly wouldn't have opened their doors to a million more and in so doing caused massive unrest and disruption across large parts of Europe.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How does that square with the EUs admission that, by their reckoning, 80% of migrants are economic?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Or by the fact that so many of these people from Libya, Syria etc have 'lost their papers' and when pressed admit to coming from elsewhere, like Africa.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So why don't they stay and fight and women and children might be accommodated across the EU while the men go and fight for their country.

Like we had to do when Germany decided to invade Europe. All I see is hundreds of thousands of young males waiting to cross the border using it as an excuse to get here when they wouldn't have had one before.

What do they say, free housing, free money and free everything that is why we come to the UK and as many have pointed out they pass many countries to get here why can't they settled there along the way.

Also why should this be a EU problem when you point out this is a problem for the world so lets start with all the countries that aren't taking any refugees in. just look at the size of Russia even Australia only has a population of 22m people.

I'm sorry to say but we do our bit to help and there is only so much we can do

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I thought I would do some digging and you can see how we voted in the Council elections here - http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-cou...d-kingdom.html

In the past two years, we have lost votes on Car emergency notification systems, the installation of judge deputies in the ECJ, how EU statistics are gathered, the funding of Europe wide political parties and a Europe wide promotion of agricultural products.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Things we really need to know about and have. TAKE BACK Control. Vote Leave!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And more money spent in the UK by those workers and not sent "back home" where living costs are lower.

And don't forget that those who have worked here will be entitled to pensions even if they are no longer living here. Both Brits and others.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think compassion is very high on people's lists. Just look at the Immigration threads, hardly any posts about how these refugees can be helped at or near their point of origin. It is all about how can we keep them out ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We're just creating another pensions time-bomb. The only realistic 'answer' to the UK's problems is not never ending population growth, it's improved productivity.

It's odd how migrants are simultaneously lauded for a) doing all the low paid, manual jobs, lazy Brits don't want b) paying more tax than their indigenous peers whilst taking less benefits, c) propping up our economy with their spending, d) repatriating large, much needed funds to their home nations, e) keeping the NHS & other services afloat whilst f) putting an insignificant burden on them.

Sorry but it doesn't add up. For one thing, anyone working at near the minimum wage will be paying virtually nothing in income tax* and will very likely qualify for relatively generous in work benefits, tax credits etc. When they arrive they may well be young, fit and single but when they have children and as they grow older they become just as much a cost to the state as anyone else.

* By my maths, someone on £15k a year will be taxed at 20% on £4k which amounts to income tax of £800 pa. That doesn't buy much by way of NHS time...

The figures shown from 2012 show what sort of in work benefits migrants are entitled to and how relatively generous they are. In work benefits include: income support, housing benefit, CB and tax credits.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/284

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think this is the critical question: I feel that Merkel et al are just in denial here. They should have done a deal with Dave when he came to say "if we cannot get some viable ability to cap immigration then the UK *will* be leaving the EU".

Seems a high stakes gamble on their part or are they just so far removed from reality?

The EU project has to provide a country with the ability to cope with the demands of being in the system. The rules need to be flexible enough to cope with country specific needs without going too far as to cause infighting.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Swiss have just pulled their application to join the EU.

No sign of it on the BBC?

https://www.rt.com/news/346884-switz...tion-rejected/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Swiss haven't been considered as a candidate country since the negotiations stopped in 1992. This was really just a formality. In fact the very act of reporting it at this stage in the referendum campaign would most likely give it more significance than it really deserves.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm sure that's only scaremongering from the leave side. lol

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A lot of the campaigning and TV specials have been cancelled for now. Probably tomorrow as well. For obvious reasons.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes that was tragic and unbelievable. I hope it wasn't connected to the referendum in any way. Let's say a prayer for her family if that is your way.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes, let's say a prayer for her family. It is tragic.

Reading the latest reports, it seems more mental health related than referendum related. No 'sane' person would carry out these actions.

She helped many and god rest her soul!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's a great shame that it took the murder of an MP to restore some dignity to parliament. Sadly, it'll be business as usual in the not too distant future.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Didn't take long did it 'Labour MP Neil Coyle making political capital out of colleagues death'

Hoping it'll hurt the Leave campaign - seems to have backfired though.

Yea I know it's the Mail...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ic-murder.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well said!

---------- Post added at 09:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

Yes it is. Well said.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think it's on us as well. We get angry and dehumanise our politicians too often. Most people mean well even if we have big disagreements.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This information has just been shared with me. It is an interesting read. Don't ask me to respond to any of it though as it is not an area I am familiar with not did I research it. Looks like it has been well researched by the writer though. It may damage your eyes, but read on....

Reasons to Leave the EU

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

remember, tonight the only tv show not likely to be full of rubbish but just give you the bare facts ( ;) ) is back for 1 night only tonight on Channel 4 at 21:00 :)
http://www.radiotimes.com/tv-program...rash--17062016

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

First off no need to shout and second where did this 'info' come from?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It was shared on a forum discussing the EU referendum. I didn't know that I was shouting as I am new to forums. I simply didn't want people to ask me to comment hence my reason for the capitals.

Done now, hope that is better....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So if it was shared on a forum are you sure it is 100% fact? If you don't really know much about it as you say you can't comment?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, the person who shared it is a very knowledgeable researcher who has had in interest in and experience of British Industry for many years. I am sure he would be more than particular about what he posted. I would trust it to be more factual than a lot of the information going around at the moment.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think this extract was posted (again without a link) earlier in this thread ..

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 ----------

I did a simple Google query using one of the sentences and the results are a bit creepy. Many, many forum sites have this Brexit narrative posted verbatim to their boards:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="M...man+companies"

Even, the Pet Shop Boys are not spared!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So it is more likely a load of nonsense or at least propaganda from a Brexit fan?

From one of the comment sections

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No I would not say it was rubbish but that is only my opinion. It was shared with me (on facebook) from a highly educated person as I said so I can only assume it was researched. I have had a quick look and I see how it has been posted on other forums too now. Perhaps they know more than we do - perhaps someone has inside information. I don't see it questioned on the other 2 forums I have looked at - I assume it is up to people to make up their own minds as to whether it is propaganda or not. Shame about British Industry! I may, if I have time, try to find out more..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well its been posted all over Facebook and the internet and so far it looks like there isn't much truth in the statements about EU grants.

The Hornby thing doesn't seem to be true either as far as I can find.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

For sure. However, one witness said the attacker shouted either of these 2 things:

"Put Britain First."
"Britain First."

Yea, as you say mental. Have to be to join these organisations.

---------- Post added at 14:03 ---------- Previous post was at 13:59 ----------

There's always one idiot!

---------- Post added at 14:09 ---------- Previous post was at 14:03 ----------

If you keep up with the news you'll know these firms have left the UK and gone abroad. Some of the names I remember vividly. It's no hoax.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm no expert, but I am fairly certain that company obtaining a loan for one purpose and then using it for another is actually illegal in most countries, and would certainly not be tolerated internationally. In fact, I think it would be considered massive fraud.
Doubtful, I'd like to see proof.
I don't think that selling our companies overseas is a good thing for the country,but I think the governments that allowed it (including ours, which still is) need to face the blame. Other governments seem to have the ability to resist the pressure the EU apparently applies to sell off companies overseas, why have multiple UK governments not only failed to do this, but have failed to encourage our own companies to profit. Why have the French railways been allowed to take over our own? When British Rail was split into regional companies before privatisation, why weren't they encouraged to buy into other country's railway systems? The same with our Energy companies.

Well, working for a large, London based University that most definitely teaches electronic technology both at degree level and for various technical qualifications, I have to question your last assertion If it were true, I would not have a job.

It's also worth noting that well over 60% of University research is funded by the EU. Research that is regarded well world wide.
Why on earth would farmers settle for less money when they could make more by selling food? BTW, a major reason farmers have problems is the fact we use Supermarkets. That money you get off a steak, or a bottle of milk isn't coming from the pockets of the supermarkets. It's coming from the pockets of their suppliers. Remember that when you next do your weekly shop. You and I choose to use supermarkets. We are not forced to by some EU (or even government) ruling.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

From 2012From 2002, when Romania wasn't in the EU and the UK had less crime and more homes, etc.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, working for a large, London based University that most definitely teaches electronic technology both at degree level and for various technical qualifications, I have to question your last assertion If it were true, I would not have a job.

It's also worth noting that well over 60% of University research is funded by the EU. Research that is regarded well world wide.

If the research is any good it will get funding whether we are in the EU or not. Hmm wonder how we managed without the EU? Wake up and smell the coffee.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It seems to have been exaggerated for exampleFord in Turkey did get money from the European Investment Bank ...190m euros to build the new Ford Transit ,however it is a loan

As far as i can find the European Investment Bank supply loans to a large number of world wide companies ,but they are loans and presumably companies like ford would get the funding elsewhere if not the EIB .

It should also be pointed out (in the interests of fairness) that many UK companies like Rolls Royce and Nissan get massive sums from the EIB

Would the UK still have access to these funds should we leave the EU ?

http://www.eib.org/projects/loans/sectors/industry.htm


http://www.eib.org/projects/loans/re...n-union/gb.htm

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This has been postred here before by me for instance. When i posted it i made the statement that it was not verified to ensure people did not get on there high horse asking for it to be disected in detail for the next week ;)

To be honest i dont think it 100%

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So you are suggesting we gamble with our research budgets? After all, you are saying we should remove our access to a MASSIVE source of funding for research, and we should hope we get access to others.

The problem is the Leave campaign appears to be asking us to go it alone. This is something we as a country haven't done in hundreds of years. Remember, before the EU, we had the British Commonwealth and before that we had the Empire. All three have (or had) massive resources. The Empire and the Commonwealth are now gone, so we don't have access to their resources. If we leave the EU, we lose access to theirs. Not only that, but we potentially end up competing with them. It's been argued that we are the 5th largest economy in the world. We are, if we have access to those resources. Without, we could be just a tiny little island somewhere west of Europe.

Of course, I suspect you don't like my post as it suggests we might actually get something BACK for our investment in the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Where has the Commonwealth gone?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not at all. We are only getting our own money back from the EU.

Dream on. You haven't had anything back in 44 years why would it start now?

Where did the money come from for research before we had the EU?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Since 26/01/2011 the UK has received £34,447,162,692 in loans from the EIB for everything from social housing new builds to the new battery plant for the Leaf at Nissan ,i don't know if the repayments are cheap or even if some of that figure is grant money but either way it is a huge amount of money to have access to .

http://www.eib.org/projects/loans/re...n-union/gb.htm

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed it is but can't you see you are only getting what you've paid in and they are charging interest on it by loaning it back to us? Doesn't seem like good business sense to me. We have all this money, we send it to the EU, we borrow it back, we pay interest as well as the loan. Is it not better to keep the money here in the first place?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes i agree to an extent ...but... that figure is money we have to give the EU because we are in the EU ,if we leave the EU that money will no longer be given to the EU ,you are correct in that ,but what happens when the party in power decide to play politics and start dishing out tax cuts or increase spending in foreign aid or investing heavily in the NHS or any government dept thus spending and diverting that money from where it was being spent before we left the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is always going to be people who agree or disagree. Some people are so emotive about their subject and when they are, they obviously want the best for them! If someone feels strong enough to write such a post, then I will share it. There is propaganda all over the place yet I don't see many other posts being questioned, especially on other sites. Moderators should be objective.

Basically, the EU is a mess, Britain is a mess, the people who suffer from wrong decisions and cutbacks by the government are a mess. Seriously, what has happened to good old fashioned values. Bring back the good old days.There isn't really anything else I can say.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Seeing as EU funding apparently results in a reduction of the UK rebate, ie for every £3 of EU grant, the rebate gets reduced by £2, the actual %age for EU funding is 20%.

Link
These are not meant to be representative of the actual numbers, but are merely to demonstrate the principle.
UK payment to EU £300.
Get back £30 in funding, rebate is 2/3rds of £270 ie £180 giving net payment of £90(£300-£180-£30).
Get back £60 in funding, rebate is 2/3rds of £240 ie £160 giving net payment of £80(£300-£160-£60).
Increase of £30 in EU funding to the UK, only £10 has come from the EU, the other £20 has come from the UK via the reduction in rebate.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I've not seen any Moderation.

If not in bold, moderators are posting their own personal views, which obviously they are entitled to do.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As Chris asked when did the commonwealth cease to exist it seems to be doing relatively well and is a far bigger market then the EU and contains many more developing economies. This is the problem with the whole EU referendum debate half facts and exaggeration meaning neither side has made their case sufficiently enough for undecideds to make the informed choice they are looking for.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Come on now, you know the real agenda of anyone who wants out of the EU is to build a Trump style wall around the entire UK to cut off all nasty foreigners. Of course there'll be a gate through which we can throw out anyone who's 'foreign' before we finally brick it up. :rolleyes:

Being out of the EU doesn't mean cutting ourselves off from anyone and will be a major incentive for our exporters to develop trade with the rest of the world free of the constraints of EU membership.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't start a discussion on the commonwealth as it goes against everything the EU stand for.

To begin with it's bigger.

The main difference though is it comprises 58 Free, Independant Sovereign Nations!

The commonwealth is what the EU should aspire to be.

Anyone interested can read more here.http://thecommonwealth.org/about-us

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You seem to be mixing up the people affected by Government cutbacks with those you see as being impacted by being in the EU.

Can you clarify when the "good old days" were? Thanks ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's pretty unfair, the way the UK dropped its "commonwealth first" trade policy, hanging out to dry countries we are intimately related to, in order to join the European project. I wonder if all those New Zealand sheep farmers have ever quite forgiven us.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Although we did drop "commonwealth first" trade policy that doesn't mean there is no longer a trading partner out there for us. You can still get NZ lamb now.

Strange how remain make no mention of the Commonwealth in relation to trade with those 58 nations especially in relation to the multicultural make up of this country now.

Then again we'll be shunned by the rest of the world if we leave the EU won't we.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We can trade with all the commonwealth countries without the EU restrictions imposed upon us.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Apart from having to pay the EU for the "privilege". Part of the money we pay the EU is from having non-EU trade.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It was unfair & bizarre, considering we formed it or were instrumental to start with.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm fairly sure any trade we might lose from leaving the EU we can make up elsewhere and easier no longer being restrained by the EU. Both sides have performed pathetically during this campaign but what optimism there has been is on the leave side and this tired retort of remainers "closing ourselves off from the world" is being seen for what it is a cheap shot that isn't even applicable as the vast majority of leavers favour greater trade and involvement with the whole globe. If shutting ourselves off applies to any camp it's remain where they seem happy to be reliant on the EU for trade.

I think our biggest problem is our politicians have got lazy and like having the EU doing as much as they do letting domestic politicians off the hook as the EU has made a great scapegoat for our politicians over the years. Getting out of the EU is the first step to a chance of decent politicians.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is the human rights element I continuously refer to, the ECHR often stand up for a migrant's human rights, but they do not seem to stand up for the human rights of British Citizens (disabled, sick etc. when their benefits are cut by our government and ultimately, some of these cases lead to death and suicide). Unfortunately, it is a double edged sword; I think I recall an article by a politician stating that the way to leave the ECHR is for the UK to withdraw from the EU and return to self governance or make a case to pull Britain out. Both go hand in hand. Hence the reason why we also need a decent government in power so it doesn't turn into a loss loss situation. On a positive note, if Britain left the (EU and) ECHR, they would also be able to deport criminals more easily and more quickly as they would not be bound over by the rules of the ECHR.

The good old days - when you could call the doctor and get an emergency appointment the same day and a standard one the day after. Hospitals had beds to meet the needs of our population. Schools weren't crowded. We could put up signs staying Merry Christmas. I could go on... They are my good old days, yours may differ.

I am not going to comment on this particular issue any more as it has now become tiring. Good luck with your vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The ECHR has no connection to the EU at all. We will still be bound to it even if we leave the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...f_Human_Rights

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly. This is why we have to leave the EU and tap into that market.

---------- Post added at 07:20 ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 ----------

The good old days were in the 60s and first 2 years of the 70s when you could walk into a job. You could leave one job on a Friday and start another on the Monday especially in the building trade. I know this because I had family who worked in that trade. Getting a job in the building trade isn't that easy now. Walk on to any building site and play a game of Spot the Brit. Now I know we're just a poor wee country who couldn't survive without being tied to the apron strings of mother EU (NOT) but surely our own citizens can once again get these apprenticeships they had in the 60s? God's Holy Trousers, it's not rocket science. Anyone can see the advantages of leaving the EU even if the economy does take an initial hit. It will recover and be all the better for it in the end.

---------- Post added at 07:25 ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 ----------

I doubt they had a say in the matter. It was probably part of the conditions of joining the Common Market. In fact, I'd say it was. You can only trade with the single market from now on. What a big mistake it was joining the Common Market and at least I can say "We told you so."

---------- Post added at 07:29 ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 ----------

This is exactly what Leave should be ramming home in the last few days. I'm pretty sure the Commonwealth and others will be only too wiling to trade with us. After all, wouldn't it be in their best interests to do so?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Receiving benefits is not a human right and the ECHR is completely separate from the EU .Our government is however committed to repealing the Human Rights Act and replacing it with the British Bill of Rights but that is a different debate

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Jason Manford posted something on FB which I totally agree with...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This all seems pretty academic to be honest. After the events of Thursday and today IMHO there is no way we're going to be voting to leave, and I fully imagine policies around migration will change substantially.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Last time I checked benefits were not a human right.

I can still call my doctor and mostly get an appointment the same day or at least get one booked for a few days time.

Also since 'the good old days' the UK population has grown a lot and its nothing to do with migrants.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

While I abhor the event of Thursday I do hope you are wrong in that we won't vote leave.

We will find out next week.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The doctor situation is a very local one. You may be able to do that, other areas cannot.

The UK population has grown a lot. The majority of the increase over the past decade and a half has been directly due to, or related closely to, migration.

Scotland's population growth over the past decade, despite being way faster than at any point in the past 50 years, has lagged the UK as a whole considerably.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36565036

If we remain I wonder how long it'll be before that pledge is abandoned.

I've read some nonsense on both sides of this argument but that takes the biscuit.

---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 ----------

I'm sorry but that really is utter tosh.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.a...ulation-growth

Nothing to do with migrants? :confused:

That equates to more than half the of the entire population of Scotland and that was in 2014.

As awful and tragic as it is, I can't see why the murder of an MP would change anyone's mind on this debate, in either direction.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

In my lifetime (62 years to be exact) the population of the UK has grown by around 10 million.