Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I really dread to think the disaster Scotland would be in if they got a yes.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

When it comes to the current exam grades fiasco, there's plenty of children and their parents in England who wish England adopted Scotland's solution so perhaps giving the country independence might not be the disaster you believe it will be.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Essentially many people in Scotland see an independent state as a cultural attack on them, and all they have to link themselves to their cultural heritage is the outdated remnants of the British state. Monarchy, House of Lords, various titles of nobility.

There’s zero actual 21st century politics behind it.

---------- Post added at 15:47 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

Control of our borders, economy, not to be dictated to from people we didn’t elect in a far flung city. To escape corruption and political appointees.

I’d have thought the Honourable Member for Wokingham would have been fully on board with this. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Sovereignty and all the benefits this confers.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So what happens the first time a Scottish government formed of a party you didn’t vote for, wins power and starts making decisions you disapprove of? Edinburgh is far-flung to those in Shetland or the Outer Hebrides, places that voted No in 2014 and have no great history of voting for SNP representation. What about them?

Your argument may be reduced to ever more atomised degrees of absurdity. In a democracy there are always people who live with decisions taken far away by people they didn’t vote for. The scenario you outlined only makes sense in the minds of those accustomed to talking about “Scotland” as a homogenous mass, and assuming that everyone else thinks the way they do, or would do if given the chance to shed their false consciousness - it’s a common foible of nationalists.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

There have been plenty of unelected UK H of L appointments under BoJo recently that are a bit iffy.

---------- Post added at 16:13 ---------- Previous post was at 16:12 ----------

OB is the Right Honourable Member for Streaming. :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It’s still a government in Scotland acting in the interests of Scotland. If a party won a Scottish election that I didn’t vote for then that would be the results.

However in the current arrangement Scotland consistently gets governed by a party it didn’t vote for, and actually has so little representation or relevance that it has no incentive to change.

You may consider the argument absurd, however many, many people (yes and no voters) consider sovereignty as important and to that end that it’s for the people of Scotland to decide their future as and when they please.

Scotland is indeed far from a singular homogenous mass, which makes the SNP polling and electoral performance of 45-50% of the vote even more astonishing that they can capture so many within such a rich and diverse society.

---------- Post added at 16:15 ---------- Previous post was at 16:14 ----------

That reminds me I need to nip into the TV section for a laugh.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Hurry up then because you're boring the arse off of everyone on here with your constant pish.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Oh dear. I’ve obviously hit a nerve since you no longer feel like debating.

Poor judgement by Red Card to miss the VJ Day commemorations in his own constituency. Even I, born long after VJ Day, recognise the importance of Union Flag waving events to his cause. He’s let Our Boys down badly there.

It’s disappointing, although perhaps not surprising, that the Conservative Party consider their leader in Scotland to be a part time position.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It wouldn't be fair on BoJo if they made it a full-time role. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It’s quite possible that he has notice to work - I don’t know what he’s saying about it but I’d be surprised if, now he’s leader, he continues his refereeing work for long.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

He’s publicly said that if he is First Minister he would stand down from his role as an assistant referee. Nothing about standing down since becoming leader of the Scottish Conservatives.

Could make some of the refereeing decisions he contributes to very interesting as Celtic march to 10 in a row come next March/April. Would he consider the voters in the stands?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

“The referee’s a Tory” could become a popular chant from the terraces once the crowds are allowed back in :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

When l was younger and my Dad and bigger brother took me to the football l heard far worse then that.:D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I think you may have missed out an adjective between "a" and "Tory"... :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

PLEASE

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I will bite only on this little corner of the absurd views you are spinning on this thread, jfman.

The SNP is not acting in the interests of the Scottish people. Whatever anyone's views on Scottish independence, one thing is undeniable (although I expect that you will have a damned good try, against all logic).

England has the biggest population of the union. It makes the most money by far, and it subsidises Scotland very generously by various means, including the Barnett formula. You only have to look at the absence of that formula to realise how negatively independence would impact on the Scottish people. Add to that the various benefits Scotland derives from being part of the UK and pile on the costs of self government, and factor in the rapidly reducing benefits of North Sea oil, not forgetting the disincentives to entrepreneurism under the misguided leftist policies of the SNP, and you have a recipe for disaster. The fact tbat only one page of the SNP's 400-odd page document making the case for independence covered the financial implications of separation shows very clearly that they do not actually have a clue on how to manage an economy.

Separation from the UK will be nothing short of a disaster for Scotland, and for the sake of its people I hope that the economic and currency consequences of leaving can be properly explained to them by someone they will listen to.

Nobody wants to vote to be poorer, as they say in remainer circles. As an economist, you should understand this.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The exams situation can't have done the SNP any harm - they agreed to use teacher's predicted results some four days ago. The SNP can argue that Scottish children and their parents did not have to endure the stress and mess from inferior English decision-making.

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:56 ----------

More Project Fear, Old Boy.
You voted to be poorer in 2016 (per the Government's own economists) so why can't the Scots do the same?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The UK government might be a net contributor to Scotland at the moment but it's not always been the case every year. With people no longer needing to be office-based and increasing electricity generation north of the border, and potential Scottish EU entry if independent, things may change.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Scotland has been a net beneficiary of the Union for practically the whole of its 313 years, with only a minor blip of around 30-40 years, if you assume that all of the proceeds of North Sea oil actually belong to Scotland (which they don’t: there’s no international frontier in the sea between England and Scotland; most of the oil is in international waters anyway; and the share of it assigned to the U.K. is subject to an international treaty to which the U.K., and not any of its constituent nations, is signatory).

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I don't disagree with any of that.

As I said to Old Boy earlier, the movement for devolution is about the heart and not the wallet and the SNP doubtless endeared itself with parents by taking the right decision on exam results four days ahead of the UK government.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Oh, wow! So with everyone working at home now, we can scrap the Barnett formula and the Scots would not even notice! Jeez, nice one, Andrew, I'll get on to Boris straight away...:rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 09:40 ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 ----------

Yes, I agree the motivation for the Scots is hatred of the English. However, they are also careful with their money - they are renowned for it.

North Sea oil has been a factor in the move towards independence, but that is of diminishing significance as the world moves to clean energy and reserves dwindle. Has the SNP woken up this reality and factored it into their fag packet calculations?

I note your answer to the points I made about the cost of independence, which actually didn't answer those points. 'Project Fear' was a cop out, I expected at least some reasoning in your answer, even if I didn't agree with it.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I did not vote to be poorer. If you want to believe these 'experts' who time and again seem to be advising the government incorrectly, then you continue to do that.

Most, if not all Brexiteers believe strongly that we will benefit considerably from detaching ourselves from the bureaucratic and monolithic monster they call the EU.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Wow! How to twist someone's words!

Quite how you converted "devolution is about the heart" to "motivation for the Scots is hatred of the English" says more about you than the Scots.

Just like you want the UK to be Sovereign from the EU, couldn't some Scots want to be Sovereign from the UK, without it involving hatred (I'm a Scot, I don't hate the English, and I don't support Devolution).

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Wow ... two crude stereotypes in one breath. Impressive.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

As you know, looking back in time, things are clearer than looking forwards in time.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Be honest, Hugh. You don't like me much. Maybe hatred is a little strong, though..:D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Same here, and I don't believe that most English people think that Scottish people hate them.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I hope Scotland does not get Independence in my life time or ever, I am ashamed of the way they want to devide four nations, We can all help each other and be strong, but going it along really would worry me, There is too much hate in the SNP ,we should all be friends,

They stand at the border and tell the English to stay away, and get away with it, I am proud to be Scottish and British and always will be, I hope the silent voters put her in her place and get her and her lot out.

---------- Post added at 14:43 ---------- Previous post was at 14:30 ----------

I certainly would not like to take the chance, The SNP hate the English and that is not a way to run a country on hate, They have Scotland divided in two which is wrong,

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

We have had several Scottish friends over the years and they are excellent company even though we might disagree on a few things.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I agree with that, most Scots are nice people. However the SNP is full of anti-English zealots. Not everyone who votes SNP actually wants independence, but they vote that way to keep Labour out. Not much of a choice for them really.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

To be honest, OLD BOY, I have no strong feelings about you - I just don't care about some rando on the internet.

Some of your views, however, I find "unusual"... ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I guess that's as close to a compliment that I am ever going to get from you! :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Hook, line and sinker Old Boy. Unquantifiable evidence everywhere which disappoints me though. No speculative blogs?

I’m not sure it’s worth adding to your errr, comprehensive, calculations here. Of course Scotland is too wee, too poor, and not clever enough for you London types that solved the education mystery in a heartbeat.

Be lucky to get unionists to back that line consistently.

I’ll credit Old Boy here as he’s agnostic to ten in a row.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

OK, fair enough. Now tell us how Scotland can survive as an independant entity.I would love to hear your unbiased (if you have a bias)outlook. Which bank will be chosen to guarantee the Scottish currency to the rest of the world?

Ooops forgot Scotland re- entering the EU so you will be using the Euro so no problem except how long do you expect that to take and what do you do in the meantime?

Will Scotland be able to meet EU requirements? This seems a drawn out process as explained HERE in simple terms.

So as an apparently Scottish economist please answer the following.

a) Who will guarantee Scottish currency to the rest of the world as the Bank of England currently does? Independence would remove that.(or should do).

b) How long do you thik it would take to join the EU as an Indepenent country providing the population of Scotland agree to it?

In betwen a) and b) what happens as far as the populous are concerned?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

When you've finished with your antagonistic remarks, perhaps you might like to consider answering the points I have made.

Whether or not anyone adds links, and no matter the degree of veracity, you always find a way to try and put others down.

Please stop sniping and start debating. Alternatively, you could keep your anti-everything views to yourself, mate. Disagree if you want, that's allowed and encouraged. But to disagree without giving any reasons is pointless because it simply doesn't add to the debate.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You've just nailed the SNP strategy on the head.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

:D:D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

There's a lengthy article in the FT about this subject. Google "London’s ‘complacency’ puts Scottish independence back in play" if you wish to read it.

Points include:
- The threat was spelt out by Michael Gove on July 21 and the penny has now dropped in the Conservative Party.
- The move towards separation is being driven by Brexit’s unpopularity (62% voted Remain in Scotland) and the belief that Edinburgh has responded better to Covid-19 than London. Other factors encouraging it are the House of Lords unpopularity, the Conservative Party's unpoularity and as JFMan has said, a lack of a convincing narrative for remaining in the Union to meet the emotional arguments head on.
- The most recent survey, conducted by YouGov, this month found that Scottish voters willing to express an opinion would support independence by 53% to 47% per cent - the first time the Yes side has been consistently ahead in a series of opinion polls conducted months apart.
- Boris Johnson vetoed Michael Gove’s suggestion that Nicola Sturgeon be invited to atted cabinet meetings on special occasions as part of a suggested strategy to to work more harmoniously with Edinburgh.
- Michael Gove's strategy has led to UK government ministers visiting Scotland but few ministers have any popularity there with Rishi Sunak being a notable exception.
https://www.ft.com/content/2420501f-...5-46e56d325547

As one Scottish-based FT reader commented

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Ah, the remainer publication posted by a remainer quoting a remainer comment.

Why am I not surprised?

Stugeon is the First Minister of a devolved Government and just as the First Minister of Wales is it is up to them what they do in this respect and have no part in what England does in response to the pandemic. It has rightly been left to the devolved Governments to decide what is best for their areas of responsibility.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's easy to criticise Michael Gove (born and brought up in Scotland) but at least he has given some thought to non-financial strategies to discourage Scotland leaving.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

At least Gove sees it.

Red Card and Baroness Davidson playing the same flawed playbook for a decade is destined to fail.

Your post above articulates well the mammoth task unionists face in Scotland.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I've no real idea, or interest, in the Scottish politicians and their policies, but I'd gladly see Scotland become an independent Country.

I think they'd do well and would flourish in the economic world we live in. Lots of English could also apply for dual nationality passports ;)

Joining the magnificent EU would be easier than expected, seeing as they're in need of somewhere else to dump their flotsam :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Oh I wouldn't call it neat Seph, I doubt anyone has the skills to make 'Scotland leaving the UK' neat :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I prefer my Welsh whiskey over that EU stuff!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Mackmyra is lovely - I just bought a Mackmyra tasting set from the website - I wasn’t impressed by Penderyn.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You still haven't explained how Scotland would avoid economic disaster. The elephant in the room.

From that article, it sounds like they are expecting the EU to give them regular shedloads of money!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Penderyn Madeira finish. Mmm. I'll look into Mackmyra.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You just have to believe in the opportunities available, and in their entrepreneurial spirit...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Not up to me to explain it.

At the moment, the nationalists' argument for independence seem to have won a consistent majority in polls across Scotland. As JFMan and Michael Gove have both concluded, the UK Government needs a non-financial narrative to sell the United Kingdom to an increasingly sceptical Scottish nation.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Make corporation tax 2p cheaper than England - capital flights and all those threats against tax rises in the UK? Or do you finally accept these threats are a red herring?

Ironically the economic argument isn’t the elephant in the room that you portray it. And the roughly 50% of the Scottish population who favour independence and have considered that despite these threats of doom they’re willing to take responsibility for their own affairs.

To wee, too small, too poor didn’t convince the 45% in 2014, and it will take a monumental effort of lies and misinformation on the part of the UK- which I wouldn’t consider beyond the current PM in order to win a referendum - to turn these individuals.

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:23 ----------

The obvious answer is to pay Liz Truss to come up and negotiate trade deals with her optimism. Scotland would be unstoppable.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

That will be difficult, as apart from nostalgia, the financial narrative is the only one.

Of course Scotland could go it alone, but not on todays terms.

No doubt, if Scotland did vote for independence, but didn’t get the financial settlement they sold the populous, they’d just blame the English, for now and forever. Whatever happens it will always be our fault.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Another amusing Pythonesque response from you, jfman. Have you actually passed that tax reduction idea by the Sturgeon? I don't think you'll find she's into tax reductions! :D

Not that your answer comes close to resolving the economic issue.

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:24 ----------

As long as you're not promoting it, Andrew, in which case we deserve an explanation from you.

If there is a belief that the Scots are not interested in the financial arguments, this seems to be a pretty poor opinion of the Scots.

The SNP really doesn't want to discuss the economic implications, which is why the British government need to hammer it home, as well as the other arguments for unity and against the stifling EU.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It’s difficult to find an objective article on the Potential Scottish Economy post independence.

This is the closest I’ve found to a fact based objective assessment.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13287

It’s a couple years old, certainly COVID won’t have improved things.

As I said they can.could go it alone, but it could take a generation or more to make a success of it, if they can make a success of it.

Their public spending would have to reduce considerably unless they increase economic growth and taxes considerably- which would appear challenging in the short to medium term

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Even if this mythical financial settlement involved Scotland not having to pay back their share of the UK public debt, for which they are disproportionately responsible, doesn't explain away how they would they reduce their deficit, which was running at 8%(that includes oil) in normal times. Are they expecting England to keep bailing them out for all eternity?


If any mythical economic improvements, which haven't for some strange reason happened so far, took a generation to produce results, that would be just in time for oil revenues to tail off even more.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I think some of them are still expecting the Barnett formula to continue!

They certainly can't rely on North Sea oil - there will be little demand for oil by 2050, and prices will be at an all time low.

The SNP do not have a financial bone in their collective body - they will be the ruination of Scotland.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The Barnett Formula is just an arrangement for determining changes in funding. If the gap England has under the arrangements tried to be addressed by increased spending in England, under the Barnett Formula funding would automatically be increased for Scotland. Until the Formula is scrapped, which as it's just a convention, doesn't require a change in law or rules, England can never close the gap.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I fail to see how you can describe my post as Pythonesque when it is your incoherent and inconsistent contributions that are often beyond parody.

The biggest argument that is used against tax rises is capital flight - therefore it stands to reason an independent Scotland could create this. As the working from home revolution continues - why would anyone pay staff in England, with higher living costs, when equal (or greater) quality staff can be found at a lower cost in Scotland - in the same time zone and speaking the same language.

At no point did anyone say that the people of Scotland weren't interested in the financial arguments it's that the claims of the unionist parties are not proven as we say up here.

If you think the British government rehashing the same old tired points will lead to success then I hope they take their advice from you. That ends one way, and one way only, independence. Anti-EU sentiment, rightly or wrongly, again it'd be worth the English noting that Scotland voted to remain. A more conciliatory tone, or avoiding the subject altogether, would be a better stance to take. In particular if the UK Government makes little/no ground in negotiating separate trade deals. Obviously, the opposite is true if they can sell the benefits to Scotland of these new deals - however I doubt many are holding their breath.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Here was me thinking you lived in England?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You've made assumptions. I've never said (until now). :)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So whereabouts are you?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I prefer not to share that kind of personal information on the internet. I do think referring to Douglas Ross as "Red Card" and knowing who Richard Leonard is should have been some kind of giveaway that it was more likely that I did live up here.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

lol, i'm not asking you to post your address, cause I know OB would be after you :D
If you live in Scotland I'm pretty sure you'd be safe from a visit, I'm now kind of understanding your stance on independence, although I'm totally against it as you know.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I don't need to explain because I'm not making the case for it. But even if you're making the case for something, you don't necessarily need to go into exquisite detail at the pitch stage. You leave that for someone else to sort out at the delivery stage.

That being said, I'm sure there's nothing unique about Scotland that would prevent it from being a successful independent country.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Indeed, the chances of agreeing are quite small. However I can at least try to impartially look at the unionist parties and see where they are going wrong. In 2013, and up til around the middle of 2014, I was quite firmly voting no.

However the media campaign of Project Fear included many things that were palpably untrue. I voted yes and resigned my membership of a political party I'd been in since I was 16. I currently hold no party memberships.

I'm exactly the type of voter the unionists need to sell their vision to.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Given some of his more anachronistic views of the Scots, I'm not sure Old Boy would be permitted to travel north of Berwick. :D

---------- Post added at 21:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:08 ----------

Just replace "Scotland" with "the UK" and "English" with "European Union" and "our" with "their" and you will have the Brexit scenario neatly summed up. .;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So what's currently stopping Scotland from being financially successful and prudent?

They've had access to the markets of the EU, and others countries the EU has agreements with, and still have access to the rest of the UK. Any rule-based restrictions they face with the rest of the World are done to the EU. The bulk of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK. A chunk of that can only be exported to the rest of the UK, due to geographical constraints. Eg Romania can't easily buy electricity produced in Scotland.

With Brexit they are issues that couldn't be gone into, ahead of the referendum, because they depended on what might or might not be agreed with the EU. As the UK was already independent, there were issues that didn't need discussing compared to Scottish Independence.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

England.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Seeing as the UK part-funded the EU, it's the other way around. The EU are the ones looking for money and everything else from the UK. The amount of money the EU is to lose from the UK is less than what Scotland currently gets from the UK.
Link
Incredible that more than half of the total UK deficit is down to Scotland.:shocked:

---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------

How? As I said, they have access to English and EU markets. The UK has even had Scottish PMs, Blair and Brown. What restrictions are England placing on Scotland, that the Scottish government can't remove? And could any possible changes close the £12bn gap?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

England isn’t some benign, philanthropist entity. It’s essentially been a cancer on the world since the days of Empire, extracting wealth from every nation it rules over. Waging war against some of those it doesn’t.

It makes choices (as does Brussels) that favour some parts of the country over others. Essentially Britain is governed to suit the financial sector, consultants and other industries. It’s governed to maintain high asset values to give some sense of security given the levels of household debt.

There’s macroeconomic levers not available to Scotland (or Wales, or any English region) that essentially prioritise the interests of some parts of the country over others. Just as the UK and Southern Europe view the EU as acting in the interests of Paris and Berlin.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I’m having a Cyndi Lauper moment

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The Billions that England sends north of the border must really harm the Scots.:rolleyes:
How did the Royal Bank of Scotland work out?

Still waiting for examples of where England is blocking Scottish entrepreneurial spirit, compared to England itself. A lot of the business rules and regulations are set by the Scots themselves.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It’s all about the macroeconomic levers Scotland doesn’t have, and which separatists cheerfully assert Scotland would pull more effectively than the U.K does. Most separatist rhetoric boils down to exceptionalism. Scotland would do better because Scotland is better. It just is, and it is therefore quite logical that everything that goes wrong is horrible cancerous England’s fault.

To be fair even for many Scottish separatists that’s an extreme position. I’m beginning to think Jfman is a bot, run by Wingnuts Over Scotland.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The calculations by which England claims to be a net contributor to Scotland are unsurprisingly English.

Unsure what the Royal Bank of Scotland have to do with anything. A public limited company enjoying the excesses of capitalism, requiring state intervention, isn’t something any state trying to run a reputable financial sector would encourage. It’s entirely possible that appropriate regulation within Scotland would have prevented many of the problems, or caused the Bank to relocate to exploit weaker regulatory systems (England).

---------- Post added 22-08-2020 at 00:04 ---------- Previous post was 21-08-2020 at 23:58 ----------

You, frankly, know that’s nonsense. Considering the UK is £2 trillion in debt I’m not sure it’s “exceptionalism” for people in Scotland to think that they could have more adequately spent their share or borrowed less in the long run by making better economic investments in the past.

The fact the devolved government cannot borrow at all means it’s living essentially year on year with minimal capability to instigate long term projects. Meanwhile London gets HS2 and Crossrail.

It’s hardly an extreme position to consider that Conservative governments act in their interests in London. Yet consistently Scottish voters did not vote for said Governments. Your claim, ludicrously, is that England knows better than Scotland what is good for Scotland. A position it would have claimed over every other country in the Empire yet not a single one has came crawling back begging for rule from London. A claim that I’d personally like Red Card or a distinguished unionist to say as it’d be the final nail in the coffin.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

1. Presenting the present level of national debt as indicative of economic mismanagement is plainly silly under the present circumstances.
2. “Every other country in the empire” is likewise a very silly statement, profoundly ahistorical, and rooted in the other great strand of Scottish exceptionalistic thinking ... the notion that Scotland is somehow a victim of an English empire, rather than the actual truth, that it was always an active and enthusiastic partner in the British empire.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The figures I quoted came from the Scottish Government.
If they was something that fundamentally wrong with the calculations, why didn't those Scots Blair, Brown, and Darling do something about it?:confused:



RBS was an example of a Scottish Financial institution, and without access to England would never have got anywhere in the first place. Not every country in the world can be a major international finance hub.



HS2 and Crossrail are not just a way of spending money, they are essential because of the heavy demand in those areas.

Scotland has its own infrastructure projects, decided by the Scots(ie SNP).

In what ways does the UK government(even under Labour) act in a way to disadvantage Scotland, but somehow give England an advantage?



England faces the constant possibility of being ruled over by Labour and the SNP, even if England voted Conservative. Eg Education and Health could be ruled over by Labour. You could even have the crazy situation where a devolved department(eg Education) was headed by a Scottish MP, perhaps even a SNP one. There is no English devolved government to take control of devolved issues. What other country on the planet would be allowed to get away with that perverse situation.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Every single hypothetical you name there Nomadking has not happened. There’s simply no rules to prevent such a situation, that doesn’t mean it’d be deemed acceptable for them to happen - or even that they would.

If macroeconomic levers are some kind of Scottish myth why is it considered important by the EU member states outside the Eurozone, including the UK until this year, to remain outside?

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

I don’t see how it’s particularly exceptional for people to believe that local decisions are better than foreign decisions. It’s exactly the same argument about decision making in London vs Brussels.

Scotland of course greatly benefited in the past, through slavery and trade links with colonies in the past. One only has to walk around Glasgow to see a city built upon this with street names reflective of this. That however doesn’t necessarily make the Union fit for the 21st century. It’s hardly a Union that has the consent of the people if you suggest they be held prisoner to it because of the 17th and 18th centuries.

Again not one for the doorstep campaign, I suspect.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

A third amusing strand of separatist rhetoric is the continual reference to the 17th and 18th centuries as evidence that Scotland is somehow a prisoner. How desperately they wish to forget their leaders declared a “once-in-a-generation, if not once-in-a-lifetime” referendum, whose result, just 6 short years ago, was Scotland’s continued partnership in the U.K.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You are the one who contested that Scotland has in the past benefitted from the Union. I simply agreed with you, I fail to see how that can be considered “rhetoric”.

I’m asking someone to make a 21st century case for one.

“Once in a generation, once in a lifetime“ was an obvious error to say, as it has no legal standing and you cannot reasonably bind those joining the electorate to the decisions of the past for longer beyond the point where it is no longer democratically tolerable. Politicians got caught up in some grandiose rhetoric to underline the historic occasion upon them, but it’s demonstrably ridiculous to bind a country to a decision for “a lifetime” considering tens of thousands die, and join the electorate, each year - never mind some change their mind.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

On the contrary, major constitutional issues are decided on a generational basis because of the profound upheaval they cause. Constant tinkering is a recipe for instability. Salmond - and Sturgeon, who nodded along enthusiastically and even put her signature to the Edinburgh Agreement for a “decisive” referendum - were correct (for once). You may deeply regret their words, but passing them off as heat of the moment, overcome with emotion and therefore to be set aside is, once more, silly. Even you acknowledge the event was historic. On that, at least, we agree.

Parliamentary elections and constitutional referendums are not remotely similar in the issues they address or the consequences of their outcomes, and it is a futile exercise is false equivalence to use the parliamentary electoral timetable as an argument in favour of repeated constitutional referendums.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

There’s no legislative or constitutional basis for that claim. It’s simply a personal preference from those who are terrified of asking the question again.

The use of the word “decisive” is doing some heavy lifting. The matter was decided then. That doesn’t bind future Parliaments or Governments to not review the constitutional settlement as it sees fit.

When the next referendum happens, I can guarantee it will be in my lifetime and before the “generational” limit that some seek to falsely apply. That Michael Gove, Andrew Neil and others are already engaging conversation about who should be entitled to vote accepts that there is the possibility of a vote.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Likewise, your arguments are those of the side that was happy with the rules of the contest when it thought it would win. You seek to delegitimise a process devised and deployed entirely by your ideological fellow travellers because it backfired, and now resort to playground taunts of feart! feart! to try to bounce those who won the decisive victory into giving you a rematch you certainly wouldn’t agree to were the position reversed.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I don’t have to agree. All that would be required would be the people to elect a Government that seeks to rejoin the UK. That’s how our democracy works. Elected representatives get mandated to carry out policies - until such times as the electorate gets bored and votes for someone else.

Had the Liberal Democrats won the UK general election (no laughing at the back) they could have revoked article 50 or held a second referendum. As it stands the public got bored of their campaign and they paid the price. However, that’s the mechanics of democracy in the UK.

The SNP will get their referendum if they decisively win next years SP elections.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that the reason you don’t want a further referendum is lack of confidence in winning. If there was any confidence you’d welcome it, as losing the next referendum is about the only thing that looks to break SNP dominance of Scottish politics in the near/medium term.

Again though this is the kind of debate that isn’t going to sway the 50% of SNP voters. They believe Scotland has a right to choose its own destiny and vote for them on that basis.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

A referendum will only be held if it clear that it can be won.

50/50 won’t cut it and there would have be a clear margin of error. To lose a second referendum would indeed end it for a generation or more.

There may well be a 2nd referendum in our lifetime but it is a joker to be played wisely as it would be The last time It’s played for a long Long time.