Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can i ask what role 80/20 thinking's advisory group has on this matter and if they have any input on the reccomendation yourself as a group put forward regarding phorm just that on your website you seem to employ Ray Stanton Global Head of Business Continuity, Security & Governance, BT plc so any arm twisting or nudges in the right direction as far as bt are concerned ( i wont mention bonuses or cash incentives to emplyee's) are already in place imo.

Murky world we seem to live in more you dive the muddier the water gets ill do some more searching on history of people and stuff see what i can dig out :).

I hope phorms pr team has nothing to do with or be linked to burson marsteller a sister or parent company you have as this could just be seen as another peice of the phorm pr jigsaw and nothing to do with privacy rights or consumer interests.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would be interested in finding any information about government officials with regards to share holdings in any of the three ISPs involved in this scandal. It seems to me and many others, that the government are not acting appropriately or in accordance with the laws of the land on this issue (see PM web team blocking petitions, Home Office refusing to take action, ICO releasing a seriously erroneous Public Statement which it had to amend several days later, lack of answers to questions issued by politicians and lords; to name just a few).

Transparency seems to have garnished a new definition in light of the current debate.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would that be transparency as in "I can see right through you"? :p:

---------- Post added at 16:59 ---------- Previous post was at 16:55 ----------

I'm no apologist for 80/20 Thinking, but if you're going to list members of the Advisory Group, don't forget The Rt. Hon. The Earl of Northesk - who has been one of the most vocal parliamentary opponents to Phorm to date.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now that IS worrying.

http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=392

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burson-Marsteller

and from 80/20's web site

80/20's UK strategic partner is the global PR firm Burson-Marsteller. B-M and 80/20 will be working closely together to build networks and create projects and events that address key privacy and security issues.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have not researched anything on here Alexander but feel free to wade through it if you feel there may be something of value.

http://www.publications.parliament.u...m/cmregmem.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well-known already, I know, but I couldn't resist...

HEWITT, Rt. Hon. Patricia (Leicester West)


1. Remunerated directorships
BT Group plc (non-executive)


2. Remunerated employment, office, profession etc
Special consultant, Alliance Boots Ltd. (£45,001-£50,000)
Senor Adviser, Cinven. (£55,001-£60,000)


I wonder why they don't list her income as a BT non-exec. ? Maybe she gets a dividend of the webwise profits....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for all the feedback folks. I'll be responding in the next hour or so after a "very" late breakfast.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly johnhorb there all in it together trying to fleece us with the information they have been paid to publish by phorm themselves ;).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm not quite so cynical, but I await with interest any comments from Simon when he's had his breakfast.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for returning Simon.

I have, since my questions, read some of your recent statements on the issue of conflict of interest yet would like to read more. However may I respectfully ask that you refrain from constantly referring to your work with PI and in particular previous campaigns with that group as it only confuses the issue and has no relevance to your position in 80/20 with regards to the Phorm issues. It also seeks to add some credibility to your current position that I feel is an incorrect inference.
Those things are past and we can only discuss the current situation and judge the matter on your responses as a sub-contracted employee of Phorm Inc.

unless you are the result of some hideous and secret government led, genetic experiment ( which as conspiracy nuts we all know goes on ;)) then I suggest that you only have one head and therefore may only wear the one hat here.

kindest regards

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The entire register is obfuscated in the way it is published. It should be held in a central database which can be queried. Even the original Register for 2006/2007 before any updates is a 137 page document, it would take a week or more to go through the entire register to find the information you are looking for :/

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know Alexander.
I have since posting the link been going into it myself. Obfuscation was the first thing to come to mind. I think I might strip all the information as a single text document and have a bot search it for relevant keywords when I go to bed.
( I can do this with public domain information right? rhetorical )

However I am a simple man who enjoys football and as my team are playing right now and have the upper hand I have partaken of a few beers and such a project might have to wait until tomorrow.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ahaaa caught in the act i think heres the one knew i'd find it somewhere ;)
i now wouldnt belive anything you told me at all sorry to say one of your other friends is here posting as phormprteam might be your ceo or someone with shares :P.

* Phorm now has 5 PR teams.
Citigate,
Freud,
John Stonborough,
Burson-Marsteller <--- parent company of 80/20,
and its own "small" in-house team.

So all of you guys going to this meeting *cough PR STUNT of the highest order* be sure to know that all there have deals tied with phorm so expect them to drift around the law and order aspects and spend nearly all of it with promoting how good phorm is and why we should have it thrust upon adding latency to networks as well as be the most intrusive piece of kit ever thought of by any ex spyware company.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

'Strategic partner' rather than 'parent company' (I think), but the rest stands.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

same strategy then destroy the opposition as the KEY strategy :P, still think its an offshoot myself rather than a standalone company
you can belive him if you want i wouldnt no matter his previous interests.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Having read this thread for some time I thought it was quite clear that the meeting was for and on behalf of Phorm as a part of their ongoing efforts to educate academics and interested parties so that they might then become 'on side'
There is nothing wrong with this, nor is it much of a stunt. It's good business practise if you can be confident of your business model. It can however backfire in a humongous way.

This is why it is important that we ( I say we and I know we are nothing more than a loosely connected group of dissenters right now ) have intelligent, informed and rational advocates at the meeting to ensure that it does not become the PR whitewash that may have been originally intended.

You have to be fair to Phorm Inc. and its representatives. They have every right to do this and if they can convince people that this is their means to transparency then it makes good sense.

I would expect anyone in our camp to ensure before the meeting starts that all parties on any committee including the chair declare their interests in the minutes. This is why it is important that academic and informed people are there to speak. I was reading with horror about masks and publicity stunts to gain attention. This is far from the way to manage things and no less of a 'stunt' than people are complaining about.

Which I forgot to ask. Will there be minutes on public record?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am hoping to take a camcorder and tripod with me, so I will be recording the entire meeting (or at least from when I manage to get there) and releasing it on YouTube.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I shall be opening photoshop and drawing you a medal sir! You are dedicated beyond the call. I'd still hope that they have a neutral chair and transcripts later but of course you can not argue with a good video on youtube.

I might register my interest if I can wrangle some things. It seems too important to miss.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would rather you used Gimp or Inkscape :p

But on a serious note, I should be able to borrow one from my university (camcorder and tripod) as the meeting is directly related to my dissertation.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would that I could Alexander, would that I could.
Sadly neither open or free program is able to assist me in the hobby I have.
http://www.tattyworld.net/userposts/846

I apologise for going off topic, being new I get a bit chatty beyond what is needed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just had an email back from a contact at Yahoo! regarding the threat this technology poses towards search engine business models (as outlined here).

Whereas the reply explained they are perhaps not the correct person to contact on this, they have stated they will explore the issue.

I have also responded respectfully asking them to pass my concerns on to the relevant person(s) within Yahoo!.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry, just joining the dots . . .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't apologise, it's nice to get to know folks a little better besides all the Phorm issues, must say, your art is excellent :D

I had an idea for a comic like strip about Phorm pop into my head (i get silly stuff appear in there often) it's just a shame that i have the artistic ability of a dead mouse :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you for the link to Smon's essay. 80/20's standing remains a mystery though. The pertinent known fact at the moment would appear to be that they are paid by Phorm and the 2 Companies appear therefore as independent as siamese twins.

What do I know of their values? Nothing. I do know that everything has a price.

And talking of the "dark side", it seems appropriate to quote from Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" : "Money, its a hit, don't give me that do goody-good BS. Noone wants to die a principled pauper ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simon, I have another question for you. I can't remember whether it was here or in the meeting thread, but you have stated that if any client were seeking your services for matters which were clearly illegal; 80/20 Thinking would immediately severe the relationship.

May I ask then, why you have not severed your relationship with Phorm? Given that there is existing case law.

Phorm claim that if a website publishes content on the Internet then Phorm assume consent to access and use that content for commercial purposes. The argument goes against case law such as Ebay vs Bidder's Edge not to mention cases involving Google Images and Archive.org.

Or do you justify your decision to continue working with Phorm purely on the fact that no court has issued judgement? If that is the case, I would like to point out that the only reason why courts have not issued judgement is because in every single case I have found, the defendant has eventually settled with the plaintiff in order to avoid a judgement being passed.

Let us not forget UK case law on this issue. I ask you to cast your mind back to the Cliff Stanford RIPA case, where Stanford pleaded guilty to a breach of RIPA and was then denied the right to appeal. A clear judgement on interception under British case law.

Do you not have any ethical dilemmas with this?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From the 80/20 website: "We adhere strictly to the law, whether we believe that law to be just or not. If in our view, or in the judgement of the courts, a client is found to be intentionally acting unlawfully within the spectrum of our involvement, we will terminate the relationship. This applies equally if the client has received senior legal advice that an action or service is likely to be unlawful".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm just boggled by this. 80/20 claims there is no conflict of interest, and yet their 'strategic partner' is a notorious PR company that happens also to be employed by Phorm?? Huh? I'm not a conspiracy theorist - normally they're just fun diversions - but this is extraordinary. Why would a privacy consultancy need to team up with a huge spin-meister anyway? There's got to be more to this than meets the eye.

This article is fascinating:

http://www.thismagazine.ca/issues/20...ayingdirty.php

"Burson-Marsteller does not publish a list of its clients, but it has purportedly worked for some of the most infamous governments of the twentieth century, including the military junta in Argentina in the 1970s, Nicolae Ceausescu’s dictatorship in Romania, the government of Indonesia (following the massacre in East Timor) and the Nigerian government (to discredit reports of genocide)...

One of the most effective PR tools is the “third party� technique, where a firm will hire an “expert� to speak on behalf of a company. People don’t generally trust corporate executives who say a product is harmless (say cigarettes, Teflon cookware or household insecticides), but are more likely to believe the same words from a scientist. And sometimes even more effective than hiring experts is getting average citizens to do the same. PR firms have time and again managed to create the illusion of public support for corporate causes through front groups, such as the CCRES."

Sound familiar?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is my first post on this forum, which I have been reading for the past several weeks and I am amazed by the amount of dedication that users are putting into this subject, particularly the huge amount of effort that Alexander has put into it.

I myself am a BT Broadband user who has become tired of the lack of information and answers on the BT Forums plus the editing and closure of threads that do not appease them along with the suspension of several members for the same reason.

I was one of those BT members that was used in the 2007 BT/Phorm trial without my prior knowledge or consent and I still have the proof with the cookie which I still have as evidence should it be required in the future. In the cookie string it has a date of 1-Jul-2007 17:33:06.

I have signed the E-Petition, written to my local MP twice and have written to the BT Chairman, to which he has failed to respond, surprise surprise.

I await the outcome of this PR stunt on Tuesday before deciding about jumping ship to a NON phorm ISP.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To be honest, I would recommend you jump now anyway. You have sufficient grounds for breach of contract given that you were illegally included in the covert trials and have evidence to that effect. As a result you should be able void the contract without penalty.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Boggled" is an understatement. I was unaware of this until today. Questions must be asked and clarification sought. B-M don't appear to be too choosy with the company they keep. I wonder what the going rate for "ethics" is these days? The trail from 80/20 to B-M to Phorm is a real concern.:erm:
This has certainly got me thinking...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It might be best to contact the customer services/retentions/marketing type of departments with this sort of information, as well as sending copies to the technical departments.

The technical departments will need to know and will of course bring it to the attention of those they deem important, but it is the sales and marketing people who will shout the loudest if they think the introduction of phorm will cost them customers and market share.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks, Ravenheart. Please do feel free to make changes. Perhaps the Chief Exec- I imagine he would pass it to the legal and technology people.

Another tack to take will be to write to an insurance broker and ask for a quote for insurance against the risk of theft of data by someone who has access to our ISPs. I am still pondering this would be grateful for thoughts/ideas.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It was said way back in the early days of this thread that "in business, perception is reality".

Or something like that. I'm paraphrasing as there's little chance of me actually finding the original posting, but that was the gist of it.

80/20 have only been going for a few months and they are already being seen as little more than apologists for spyware makers and others who would take our privacy away. That may not be the case in reality, but if that becomes the public perception then it may as well be true.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Amateria:

How about sending such a letter to the British Bankers Association?
That way, all banks and financial institutions will get to be informed as they look out for the interests of their members.

http://www.bba.org.uk/bba/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=103

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had the same thought earlier Dav, as they were always on telly at the hight of the bank penalty charge cases, maybe we could use them to our benefit this time.

I'll get my letter off to my bank, and I'll also send one to the BBA.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Right. I don't have time to answer every one of the fifty or so questions just at the moment (we're lodging a legal appeal tomorrow on an issue close to all your hearts) but let me try to get through as many items as possible.

Let's deal wit the Burson Marsteller issue first. I do find it fascinating that so many people have been passing judgment on 80/20 for some weeks and this is the first time anyone has spotted the huge B-M logo on the "about us" page of the 80/20 site.

Do we have an ethical conflict with this relationship? No. I've been following the B-M saga for many years and I'm fully aware of that aspect of its history. Just about every major corp in the world has multiple dimensions, B-M included. The bigger you get, the more obvious that becomes. There are many aspects to B-M, including the (until recent) role advising Hilary Clinton.

80/20 is a company operating globally with global clients. Such companies need strategic partnerships. Yes, B-M is one, but the LSE is another. B-M helps us with advice and will host breakfast meetings and the such that we will organise. There is no B-M person on our board or our advisory group. And of course, it's nonsense to say they are our parent company. Check out Companies House and you'll see that.

Oh, and in answer to a related question, no 80/20 employee or director has any financial interest in Phorm or B-M.

As for the question about our ethics code and why we haven't resigned from the Phorm contract, we make it clear that there has to be some clear decision by an authority on this matter. A court, a regulator whatever.

Craig asked me to cease mentioning my work with PI. Excuse me, but I didn't start that controversy. I find it highly relevant that I, as director of PI, am constantly kicking the heads of potential clients. If you find that situation difficult to handle, welcome to the wacky world of unfunded advocacy.

Back to Phorm. Let me state unequivocally that Phorm did not "buy" a PIA. Here's a scoop for you. Phorm came to us before there was even the slightest controversy about its plans. At the executive meeting that preceded our work I gave a warning along the lines of "you realise that once you take this road there's no turning back". Kent Ertugrul, the CEO of Phorm, responded by saying that the chips should fall as they will, and that the company wanted an independent analysis. I reiterated, as I am bound professionally to do, that the company would have no control over this process and that 80/20 may find it a violation of privacy. His view was along the lines of "publish and be damned".

Phorm knew the risk it was taking, even before there was any controversy. They knew that they were getting into a potential minefield, but seemed hellbent on showing that they were engaging a process that no-one in government or elsewhere had asked them to undertake.

Just for the record.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good idea, thanks Dav. I will ponder on a draft.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's the postal address so you don't have to use the online option they offer,

British Bankers' Association
Pinners Hall
105-108 Old Broad Street
London EC2N 1EX
United Kingdom

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Did your client consent to you making this disclosure about your private meetings with them? If so, it looks like spin. If not, then this is quite an extraordinary breach of the confidence reposed in you by your client.

I don't doubt you are a dedicated, unpaid advocate, but do you understand the professional obligations of a consultant? Do you understand the distinction between audit and consultancy?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simon,

They may have come to you before there was controversy over their current plans, but what about the illegal trials? There was controversy over them a long time before Phorm came to you and even before 80/20 existed.

Furthermore, what is your opinion on Phorm Inc. refusing to divulge what user-agent they intend to use so people can add explicit rules in robot.txt to block them? I suspect they won't be using any special user agent and in fact they will masquerade as the same user agent the user's web request is using.

Another important point is that the system is closed and proprietary so we only have Phorm's word that it will not be used in a way other than described (putting aside for a moment that even their public statements on intended use are horrific). The reality is this technology can be used to do many illegal things and would be pretty much impossible to detect when it does. Why should we trust a company borne out of Spyware not to use the capabilities of their technology as described by themselves in their ICO register entry and their patent application? In fact I will go even further and say why should we trust -any- company irrespective of their reputation, to not use their technology to commit illegal acts that can't be detected, in the name of profit?

How do you feel the possible uses of Phorm's technology (with very trivial changes that would take an experienced sys admin literally minutes to implement) stands in the light of Net Neutrality?

Do you for example deny that Phorm's technology could be reconfigured with ease to block access to ISP's competitors, or competitors to OIX ad platform?

Do you deny that the technology can be used to add noise/latency to competing VOIP products in order to encourage people to use their ISP's own VOIP services (or the services of an OIX advertising partner)?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is not an audit, it's an assessment. And yes, I know full well the rules of the game. We are not under an NDA, nor has Phorm asked us to sign an NDA. I'm not disclosing privileged information, I'm merely setting the record straight. Attack Phorm to whatever extent you feel is justified, just do so on a foundation of fact.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree the spyware makes it worse, but why should anyone have to "trust" any company with technology and proposed governance arrangements that are seemingly so capable of abuse. If you balance the extremely slender social utility against the risks, what is the security case for using such technology?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hehehe see my amendments :) I have a mouth full of power steering fluid so I am a little slow on the ball this evening ;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You don't have to be under an express NDA for the obligations of confidentiality to arise! The information is not privileged, but confidential! I am not attacking Phorm on any basis, but I am asking you about your professional standards.

What is an "assessment"? Are you managing a process or performing an evaluation? If you are evaluating (whatever it is you are evaluating) then in what sense do you think you are independent - given that you are being paid by one side in a controversy?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I shall have to leave it here for the day.

I was expecting a little more than that to be honest Simon. I did not mean to question your integrity but to merely point out that in your current position as sub-contracted employee of Phorm Inc I'd find it less than credible that you could issue any kind of statement of findings that would be harmful to the client.

Once again. It matters not that you are a director of PI. The two positions are clearly separate and opposed and you have to address this issue from the standpoint of Phorm employee.

You have reiterated your claims to neutrality and I shall accept that.
However you've not touched on many of the issues raised today ( even though they number somewhat less than 50 ) and it smacks of the usual
"if we can't put a positive spin on the answer then don't answer" tactic.

You probably don't deserve to be embroiled in this farce but as it stands you formed a company purely to service the Phorm contract ( in my opinion based on what I have read here ) and I don't doubt that it was lucrative both in retainers and any future earnings from what could grow to be the largest global business model on the planet if not halted now.
It's just incredible that you would sully your reputation with these people given what you know in this area. I hope you can come through it without further harm.

I'd still like your opinion as to us getting OIX partner information released so that we might ensure we can create a blocklist.

kindest regards

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

couldn't have said it better!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@80/20 quick couple more questions if you dont mind :)

1. do you catergorically deny that you have such a strategic plan or partnership with Burson Marsteller related to phorm atm and have never been in touch with them or the pr people working for phorm?.

2. What exactly is the bonus in having a strategic partnership with this company apart from having the odd coffee morning a user already posted this as part of B-M known tactics
dont get me wrong but how does it look when you and your strategic partners *cough* are both working for the same company at the same time for the same issue coincidence? smells like a phorm phish shop.

3. what did your conscious say to you by dealing with a company well known in the past for being active in the field of ad/spyware for someone with a great deal of knowledge about internet security did you not think about how many illegal data gathering and internet/machine killing experiences these guys gave to people?
I do because i was one of the people fixing them after there mess had infected normal users systems.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another point here Simon, with regards to you not being the responsible party with regards PI association. You are right, -your client- started that association by claiming their system had the approval of Privacy International.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well spotted. I guess the strategic partner made the referral. What else are strategic partners for!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another point I have Simon, is regarding your apparent bitterness over the lack of donations by the British public to PI. I should remind you that the vast majority of the UK have very little disposable income and in fact most of us are in debt. Just because I can't afford to donate money to Privacy International (I am a student with a mortgage, a 2 yr old child and a partner on long term disability) it doesn't mean I don't support them.

The problem you have in acquiring donations is twofold. Firstly Privacy International is unknown to the "general public" the vast majority of the population are unlikely to recognise the name or what they do. Secondly, the people who do have disposable income to the point where they could make a substantial donation, are more often than not the same people who head up or work in senior management/executive roles for companies who want to profit from abuses of privacy (or are shareholders of such companies); so they are unlikely to fund an organisation which campaigns to protect rights and thus close potential avenues for profit.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for responding about this issue. Is it coincidence that both 80/20 and Phorm have associations with B-M? You can probably appreciate that it looks a bit odd. It's also hard to understand how a company whose sole purpose is to put a convenient spin on controversial issues, could have anything to teach a company such as yours which is surely anti-spin. Let alone be needed to do something as mundane as organise meetings. This just doesn't seem to make any sense.

Say we were to suppose that B-M can also act for 'good' as well as in the service of corporate greed - and so could be useful in making the public aware of privacy issues. OK, but then there would be a clear conflict with B-M acting for Phorm - they couldn't be batting on both sides, could they?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome to the forums Simon. I haven't posted much recently but I have been reading your comments with great interest. Thank you for spending the time here on a sunday to reply to us.

I am curious as to whether the PIA will deal at all with the issue of function creep and whether you have any thoughts on that issue that you are able to share with us?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

According to the introduction to your First Stage (Interim) Privacy Impact Assessment For Phorm Inc., the commissioned work involves the following elements:

• Auditing the privacy policies.

So you are conducting an audit?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

See, this is what happens in the hothouse. Phorm isn't a strategic partner, B-M is. How many of you have actually read through the 80/20 site?

As for accusations that we formed 80/20 especially for Phorm, please get a life. Phorm is a middle size startup. If we're to make an impression in the corporate privacy world we have to go well beyond that, which is what we intend to do. Have you looked at our privacy courses? Other clients? Our own plan for funding developing countries?

I'm sure this issue and Phorm are hugely important to all of you, but please don't assume that I or 80/20 see it as the Great Armageddon. There are critically important issues of the gravest magnitude out there, some - in many countries - involving life and death situations because of intrusion into personal information by authorities.

We are committed to the Phorm process just for that reason. It's a process. And that's fairly well unique in the corporate world. If you see me as the enemy then your world has become too small and your perspective too foggy.

I thought engaging on this forum was the right thing to do, but in between abusive and hostile posts, conspiracy theories, groundless accusations, spurious attacks and absolute misrepresentation of some facts I'm starting to have my doubts. My apologies to those of who who have been civil.

And Alexander, my apologies to you too. I get around 300 emails a day and I don't have enough hours in the day to get back to everyone.

As for the other questions, those answers can wait until the PIA has been published.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I respectfully suggest you re-read the original comment. I interpreted it as B-M had referred Phorm (being as B-M are a strategic partner.) I don't think anyone has suggested Phorm are a strategic partner.

With regards the apology for not replying to my email, that's fair enough, I get a lot of emails too. however, I would like to point out that my email was sent as a "reply" to your reply to me with regards to whether or not a comment on The Register was posted by you. I accept it may have been lost in your inbox, but it just seems odd that you replied to my first email and failed to reply to the second, which I presume would have been threaded by your email client as they all had the same subject as far as I remember. Anyway back on topic...

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I realise that there is a lot of information around this issue that Joe Public does not get to know and that, when not in possesion of the full facts, certain conclusions can be easily reached that may be totally erroneous. However, with partial disclosure comes the spectre of misperception. It's easy and quite natural.

Simon, it sounds as if you have quite innocently become embroiled in an issue that you consider to be at the lower end of the scale in the great scheme of things. Hopefully, you won't decide to focus your efforts elsewhere. True, the situation here is not life threatening and, is therefore, not of global importance. Yet. There is a steady erosion of privacy and liberty here and, because we can see how badly it can turn out in other parts of the world, our society needs people of your experience to nip it in the bud.
I think your involvement with Phorm would have been much better received if it hadn't been on a commercial basis. If PI had come out and said that Phorm's system was a privacy advance then more people would have taken notice.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I said - did the strategic partner make the referral. Obviously I mean B-M - who said Phorm were your strategic partner? It's perfectly clear that Phorm is your client.

Is this critically important work of PI or 80/20?

What is the Phorm process? How are processes unique in the corporate world?

You have allowed yourself to become the story. Can you think of any way to recover that situation?

Why? Most of the unanswered questions are not about the PIA.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In support of dav's post above, I would strongly suggest that you don't play this issue down as trivial in the grand scheme of things. Yes there are other issues in the world which are a life and death situation but accusing people of being narrow minded is not a good way to win favour or support.

Furthermore, irrespective of whether there are "critically important issues of the gravest magnitude out there" as a professional company you should be treating all issues equally. I would be very disappointed indeed to find out that you haven't treated this issue as seriously as you would others because it is not a life and death situation, you are supposed to be neutral remember. By "you" I refer to 80/20 Thinking as a whole not you as in Simon Davies.

This issue has touched a very raw nerve with the population of the UK (and if it was just an insignificant minority it would not have received anything like the publicity it has had in the press and media, so rest assured this is a national concern not just some geeks with their knickers in a twist). If it wasn't for all the publicity over the past 12 months regarding breaches of data protection regulations it is likely the public would have merely blinkered this issue out of their lives (like most other issues). Phorm's strategy to launch this despite the public being more aware of privacy issues than ever before, was not a very wise one.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have.

Inference is that I don't have a life. I have a very rich life thank you sir in so much that I have been semi-retired for 7 years now and am in my 40's. My life is such that I don't see this issue interfering in anything I might normally do. I implied that you have started up the company with the Phorm contract in the bag. You had something going I don't doubt. If I had started my business with no prospective clients I expect I'd still be working for less than I'm worth for someone else. I'm aware of your client list that you say you acquired 'within weeks'. New business ventures in a relatively untried sector don't miraculously hit the ground running.

Hear Hear.
But what does this have to do with us or 80/20 Thinking? Those would be matters for a privacy rights organisation such as Liberty or the European civil liberties network and not those of a company whose mission is to improve consumer trust for anyone who hires them.

I'm sorry if I personally have offended you with any of my comments. I know I can be brusque, especially when I'm being led around the houses. This would probably be the best place for you to have these conversations however you surely are not so naive as to think that on any public forum, no matter how knowledgeable some members are, that there will always be an element that will attack you?

I've tried not to say anything today that I did not know as fact and even my comment about the relationship between Phorm and yourselves was made clearly stating it as a personal opinion.

Once again, sorry you've had a bad day. I still don't wish to be hostile or abusive towards you but it is difficult to always express sentiment on a forum whilst maintaining ones stance.

Regards

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I might be wrong here, but I think, publicly at least, B-M's appointment as one of Phorm's many PR outfits was well after 80/20's initial PIA, so, if anything (and it probably ISN'T anything) the referral would be the other way round.

I, for one, am pleased that Simon has chosen to post here, and await the final PIA with interest. I should point out, however, that even if Phorm is found to be acting within the law, it soesn't make what they are doing - gathering 'clickstream' data purely for commercial gain, any more attractive.

Was 121 ever actually found to be acting ILLEGALLY?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wasn't suggesting anyone had referred anyone, merely pointing out that it appeared Simon had misread the original comment.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry, I should have quoted the original comment, rather than your post.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wish I had seen this before now. I am gobsmacked I have been speaking to the same gentleman that said this.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/...]=x-347-560886

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As for the PIA, there has not yet been a response to these questions to Simon about how the ICO's process is being followed:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...omment-1046919

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Of course I don't mean to imply you or anyone else is narrow minded. That wasn't my intent, and it would be plain wrong and rude to say so. I'm merely trying to point out that on a day to day basis I have to balance a very unpleasant spectrum of privacy issues, so I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. In some respects I'm angry at myself for spending so much precious time dealing with people's perceptions rather than the hard reality of my tasks as an activist. Many of you are deeply disappointed and angry with me, but I am getting old and I don't know how much time I have left to stand Canute-like before this awful tide. I am alleged to be the most ferocious privacy activist around, and yet I have singularly failed to stop the encroachment of the surveillance society, even with so much help from people like yourselves.

That doesn't mean I treat the Phorm issue any less seriously than you would wish. However I am also aware of the tectonic shifts that are happening in the online world and I'm doing my best to position myself, and others, so we can best understand and engage.

I have been reluctant to say this, because it's really nobody's business but my own, but I have not personally received a penny from Phorm. 80/20 has, but I am not drawing any salary or retainer from 80/20. The money goes to the development of the organisation and to the causes that we seek to help. In the future, I may draw a salary, but not now or in the forseeable future.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry didnt mean to sound hostile but could you answer these 2 questions i put before you deflected them and others about B-M not phorm?

1. do you catergorically deny that you have such a strategic plan or partnership with Burson Marsteller related to phorm atm and have never been in touch with them or the pr people working for phorm?.

2. What exactly is the bonus in having a strategic partnership with this company apart from having the odd coffee morning a user already posted this as part of B-M known tactics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian Smart
One of the most effective PR tools is the “third party� technique, where a firm will hire an “expert� to speak on behalf of a company. People don’t generally trust corporate executives who say a product is harmless (say cigarettes, Teflon cookware or household insecticides), but are more likely to believe the same words from a scientist. And sometimes even more effective than hiring experts is getting average citizens to do the same. PR firms have time and again managed to create the illusion of public support for corporate causes through front groups, such as the CCRES."

Sound familiar?

dont get me wrong but how does it look when you and your strategic partners *cough* are both working for the same company at the same time for the same issue coincidence?

It is of a critical importance to many people in this country for the simple reason you wouldnt mind if it was the government or police to keep the people and the national security safe (Even if they lose your details ;S)
But for an intrusion into personal information by a COMPANY especailly a dubious ex-spyware company who will sell details to the highest bidder we have every right to be gravely concerned hence some peoples responses as you see here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Well said!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Personally, I view both Simon and CF posters as riders on the same tandem bicycle. Hopefully, we'll all be pedalling in the same direction by Tuesday and not be facing different directions:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have been reading this and I was pleased to see Simon had joined in the discussion. As many of you know I was Cable customer until the phorm hit the fan and I decided to move back to BT line and smaller ISP that wouldn't entertain Phorm.
I look forward to the results to sit and read but would I ever allow phorm to monitor my click the answer is no.
We are entitled to our own opinions which I feel is under attack from phorm who wish to try and confuse or blind public with the fantastic offer of protection over the internet. Phishing isn’t as big a rip off if you use common sense on the internet but the risk of your personal details being phormed then sold out to the highest bidder is higher.
Do I trust the Phorm management no I had to remove his rootkit from a PC never again..
You will find that a large amount of people on the internet block adverts so why do they need one phormed around their clicks..
It has been proven that many get addicted to things some gambling others can become excessive shoppers. This type of bombardment could cause some families financial problems if a person becomes addicted to buying from the bombardment of adverts.
The carrot is supposed security that doesn’t exist since the background of the company is dubious; this security is already available around the internet without having your clicks sold to the highest bidder.
Again Simon nothing against you or 80/20 as I have noticed you do some really good work but what you needed to look at ways that phishing is covered by other resources online already. If the answer is yes why do they need to be tricked into deep packet inspection of every page they visit which is against human rights and privacy..

I cannot attend on Tuesday and pray that sense is restored and this phorm is sent packing for those unlike me unable to escape to another ISP provider.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't understand when you are speaking as PI, when you are speaking as 80/20 and when you are speaking as you. If I criticise the conduct of 80/20, will you take that as a personal attack on Simon? Will you try to guilt-trip me about how needy PI is of financial and moral support? If you do those things, how can I ever criticise the performance of 80/20?

The incompetent PRs that Phorm hired have now almost disappeared from the forums and now you - 80/20? - post about Phorm's unstinting devotion to truth and fairness, whatever the cost to Phorm.

If we all promised to make generous donations to PI, would 80/20 stop acting for Phorm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simon, as I have said before and will continue to say in the future, I have the greatest respect and admiration for the work you have done with PI over the years and I am proud to say that such work has inspired me to change my career. Let me promise you that my opinion on this will never change, it is seen by myself and many others as utterly selfless and incredibly important.

I also respect your right to earn a living and have no concerns over 80/20 Thinking's business plan and can even see why you started the company in the first place. I agree, it is easier to fight from the inside out, which is what 80/20 Thinking in spirit, is all about.

But you also need to respect that it is very difficult for people who have been following this issue, not to perceive you (and 80/20 Thinking) as PR paid for by Phorm. I accept that it is not entirely your fault that this perception has arisen as well, the first storm was caused by Phorm stating they had the approval of PI.

But sadly, as I am sure you know yourself, first impressions stick and unfortunately that is the impression people have of 80/20s role in this issue.

I was admittedly a little harsh in my earlier post where I referred to you as the enemy and a defector, for that I apologise, but in my defence I have worked very hard and put a great deal of time into this issue and as such it is very difficult to not have the occasional emotional outburst (which even you have been guilty of on more than one occasion since this issue arose).

I just don't see how anything is going to change public opinion (or the legal issues) with regards to Phorm and their plans, not in the current social and political climate.

I would also like to thank you for taking the time on a Sunday to answer our questions on this forum.

I would beg you not to take offence at people's reactions even if they do sometimes go a bit over the top. We are all human beings and when things upset us, we lash out, that's human nature and we simply have to wear a thicker skin to deal with that.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander's email is very measured and gracious. I have failed to live up to that standard of courtesy and I resolve to try to be as measured and gracious from now on. However ungracious Simon has found us, it would be great if he could overcome his feelings, however understandable, and answer some of the outstanding questions, many of which are not at all critical of Simon.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, I likewise have enormous respect for you. To leave a lucrative career and venture into something as arcane and (often) thankless as privacy is a decision that needs to be recognized and applauded. It is not an easy path.

You are right. There are many issues that have arisen from all this, lessons learned and will's strengthened. I've learned a great deal. Whatever happens, please rest assured that the ruthless activist is still burned into my soul and will not depart, no matter what the situation.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

to change the subject, I posted this on BadPhorm in the Server Operators also need to act! thread:

"I suggest sending a registered letter to the registered office of the ISPs, giving notice that:

In accordance with sections 1 and 2 of RIPA

- you do not consent, either as sender or recipient, to any interception of any of your website traffic for any purpose whatsoever
- the fact that your website has been made available for download subject to its terms and conditions of use may not be construed as consent to any interception
- in particular, you do not consent to any interception, either as sender or receiver, of your website traffic, even if the interception were for the purposes of ascertaining whether or not you consented to such interception

Then there would be no argument (along the lines suggested by the Home Office) that by making your website available to internet users, you are impliedly consenting to interception by ISPs. Equally importantly, it would deprive the ISP of the defence (proposed by the Home Office) that the ISP "reasonably believed" consent had been given by virtue of the fact that the website was available for download by its users.

While you're at it, why not copy the letter to the Home Office, the ICO and the DPP.

I think from a legal perspective this would be pretty watertight. Notices on the website, which by definition may not be read by the ISP until after it has committed the interception, are necessary, but they may be much less effective than a written notice which has been signed for by the ISP's registered office. It would be very hard to evade criminal liability in the face of the admitted receipt of this type of notice."

---------- Post added at 22:44 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

Alexander, if it seems to fit, please feel free to use this wording in your paper.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Folks, can you release me for a while? I know there are many questions I haven't yet answered, but pressing work awaits me and I must get it finished before the new week begins. I'll do my best to come back tomorrow and give you more answers.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is it. I AM LEAVING VIRGIN. I am going to spread as much hate for them as possible. I shall make sure of it that NOBODY ever joins there ISP, if they ask my opinion.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Were still waiting for any answers :) to go with the more.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I assume legal notices under RIPA should be served on Company Secretaries e.g.:
Andrew Parker
Company Secretary
BT Group
81 Newgate Street
London
EC1A 7AJ

I could put up the proposed text along with addresses (plus maybe the banking template) at http://www.inphormationdesk.org if you want - let me know if that's OK.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please do

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Personally? I will release you without objection and reiterate my thanks for you taking the time to answer questions today. You are the best placed to do so and i think this has been a very informative day for both of us.

As Alexander has said, please don't confuse a heightened passion for personal attacks. My respect for you as an individual remains as high as it ever was ( that,'s not cryptic, it was quite high to begin with ;))

Thanks again and hopefully if people get used to you posting here the dialogue can settle to something easy and productive.

kindest regards

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've tinkered with the wording so that it's as it would be in an actual notice:

"We hereby serve notice that in accordance with sections 1 and 2 of RIPA, that we send and receive electronic communications (website traffic) on our following websites:

LIST OF WEBSITES

and that

- we do not consent, either as sender or recipient, to any interception of any of our website traffic for any purpose whatsoever
- the fact that our website has been made available for download subject to its terms and conditions of use may not be construed as consent to any interception of our website traffic
- in particular, we do not consent to any interception, either as sender or receiver, of our website traffic, even if the interception were for the purposes of ascertaining whether or not we consented to such interception."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phew! Take a few hours off to do domestics and look what happens...

I'd love to see Phorm get its backside kicked up to its neck from as many angles as possible. I'd love to see BT get dragged through the courts and crucified (yes, there is a degree of maliciousness there but I've already briefly mentioned why and nothing will change that - karma will repay BT for what it's done to me) and I'd love to see Virgin Media do what The Guardian did and reject Phorm with a really bitchslapping (can I say that mod?) statement. Then for the investigatory powers to tell Phorm they are illegal under RIPA.

The only way things like that are going to happen is if we keep on target with the facts and the issues. If things get personal we don't help ourselves. Keep it professional, respectful and on target. The most successful backside kicking I've achieved has come not when I've gone nuclear but when I've kept it professional. There's a lesson there. Annoying when there are people out there who deserve nothing less than a darn good kicking but the result is more important.

I'd like to thank Simon for coming to CF and engaging us in discussion. He didn't have to. He could have just said "See you on Tuesday" and left it at that. It's Phorm and the ISPs that should be our targets here. Yes, 80/20T have been commissioned to do a PIA. So let's input into that process rather than start slating people involved in it. If you're going to win the game you've got to play by the rules. Remember, Simon has come here with a background that's nothing like Phorm has and 80/20T has a published code of ethics to which they must surely expect to be held to account.

These little factoids about strategic companies are all very interesting but if you set your scopes too wide you pull in too much information to analyse and lose focus. We know some of the circumstances surrounding the PIA. Perhaps more will come to light on Tuesday (full Terms Of Reference would be nice). Let's read the PIA closely, highlight the areas which seem questionable and ask why those conclusions were reached when the PIA is published.

We all believe in our message. Tuesday is an opportunity to get that message across to media outlets and to push it into the PIA even more by asking the questions Phorm don't want to answer. I personally don't think the two bods phrom Phorm will be all that interested in what those opposing them have to say. When Ahmedinajad spoke at Columbia University did he listen to what the Chancellor of the University had to say? Did he take it seriously? No, he didn't. He was never going to. Same with Mugabe and Gordon Brown's demanding the Zimbabwe election results are published.

Generally I've got a short temper. A real illegitimate sort of temper, if you know what I mean. One very respected leader in his sector I was working for took me to one side and we talked for a while about work stuff. "It's how you get the message across as much as the message itself," he said. "Keeping your lid on, staying professional is always the better way, even when it's an issue you believe so passionately in, as I know you do here. I think you are right but you need to get the right message across." Of course, he could say that because he had a huge and disarming smile :) Something I do not. He was also 6ft 5in tall and built like a wing forward, something I am not.

On a slightly humorous note, anyone who wants really serious personal abuse should head on over to rec.arts.drwho and say how much you love Sylvester McCoy's portrayal of The Doctor. Then sit back and watch your mailbox melt with the flames. Not a course of action I'd recommend, mind...

On another side note, has anybody thought of contacting The Sun or The News Of The World about this? They've done a good job humiliating Max Mosley, after all...

Goodnight all, see you anon.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you think about it Simon has a point.
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/22...t-beaten-death
http://www.is-watch.net/node/980
etc.
We in this country (ies - from where I am posting) have the rights and ability to challenge this kind of thing.
Alexander, if you were on the same crusade in China you would have a tin hat on and be waiting for the sounds of black helicopters.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We should indeed be targetting the ISPs. But what does Simon's PIA have to do with the ISPs? Phorm's PR keeps saying "but Phorm will not be processing any personal information" and that may be true. But if the ISPs don't intercept my data, then the question of Phorm processing or not processing my personal data does not arise.

So what Phorm would or would not do, given the chance, seems a side issue. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, neither 80/20, Simon nor PI are engaging with the interception issue.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hmm

i realise there are many life and death things out there my concern on this does not diminish in any way my concerns over them

i do however put this above what government does in snooping on me

we can vote them in and out of power and if its mi5 et al to think we can stop them is laughable in my book and hence of much less concern to me

but to let businesses gain control in any way how ever slight OR even give them the capability to do so at almost the flick of a switch does bother me considerably

i can see no way to interpret dpa ripa or the European directive on communications in any other way than what they have done or are about to do is illegal

and to say that what they do after they steal our data is some how good because they remove personal information is laughable

bit like the post office opening all my letters photocopying them blacking out names and addresses and saying they never looked while they did so

i would still be expecting them to get prosecuted just for opening it

non elected persons should never with out my explicit consent ever see anything of mine

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

some basic information for any shot video footage of the event:
depanding on your footage cam spec, another perhaps better option for far better quality in sound,vision and filesize.

as well as YouTube, you might also put an AVC encoded copy on the Vuse/Azureus3 torrent network.

for simplicity, just run your edited footage through VLC and use the H.264 transcode mode inside an mpeg container.

AVC, aka(H.264/Mpeg4-part10) being the better option today.

http://www.vuze.com/app

they even have an HiDef user content section , grab a copy and run it in Vuse GUI mode to see a selection of content and its quality, far better than tube...

---------- Post added at 00:20 ---------- Previous post was yesterday at 23:54 ----------

sure, we all get that..., but the simple fact is while its commendable 80/20Thinking and others are giving a % of the take to 3rd world and other related rights projects world wide.

who exactly is looking after the rights we all assume we have that our commonwealth mothers and fathers, grand parents etc have died for in this country and elsewere?

weres the diligence in this country (or upcoming in the US for that matter) making sure we dont sleepwalk into the surveillance society.

we already had the past CCTV, and thats now a money maker were you cant get easy access to the footage even after sending a DPA request, the same might end up being true of the IDcard in whatever form they slip through, and now this DPI interweb connected ISP/Phorm part of the puzzle is nearly upon us.

do you really want this to be yet another hourse+gate+close, situation by not using diligence right now, and for as long as it takes, using any lawful means available.

they even bypassed the usual "we need it to uphold/stop the law breaking" excuses, and went directly to the "its free and good for you" PR.

we all know just like the CCTV, the Govt and other 3rd partys probably think they can cash in on the data gathering later big time...,the UK CRA's for one concreate example looking to use this same DPI layer7 kit for profit.

diligence is required, and right now, IN THIS COUNTRY.

---------- Post added at 01:24 ---------- Previous post was at 00:20 ----------


more to the point, rather than jump right now (doesnt that make two BT people posting here now that have proof? i forget) cant he be helped to put his case to scotland yard and have them give him a case No. that can be followed up with the injunction as was talked about.....way back now.


or are we leaving that to another day ;)

im suprised no bobbys,lawyers or QC's have posted to this thread, or at least not publicly announced their job as a sidenote to their personal comments so far...

iv asked a few and pointed them here so there must be some at least reading.

---------- Post added at 01:32 ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 ----------

can you make it available in plain old text format, not everyone has MS products or compatable MS Doc readers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

care of the
Charles Arthur

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...omment-1046919 Tech blog.

Gnasherx makes some excellent points on the guardian blog in relation to my earlyer post "did they follow the PIA rules, i wonder" on this CF thread, see #27 for the PIA links.

to improve the odds and try and get some clear answers before tuesday relating to the PIA , i have included his questions here.

---------- Post added at 05:48 ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 ----------

;), its OK Simon, you might be the CEO of your company , but your also just a bloke,that eats, sleeps and the other thing just like the rest of us.

remember, its people that make a company, and people are just people at the end of the day, no matter were they sit on the board.

you can come and go as you please here, after all this is the open Independent cable forum message board, dedicated to helping everyone that needs/ask for help on many matters, not just Broadband or web matters.

im thinking of putting you up for a Nominations for the Most Helpful Post of April 2008 :angel: run by our very own Incognitas without fail every month.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/27...il-2008-a.html
Bump.

you can be just another member here if you like, but we reserve the right to ask a question now and again, and your right to ignore it if you please.

with that in mind, you might also take a look in your Expanding rollerdex, and give Neil as call... and tell him to get himself over here, we have several idea's that we want him to understand regarding the VM business model and products and what we want from it, he's missing a lot of real feedback he might find interesting here. ;)

---------- Post added at 06:19 ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 ----------

:clap:

how Dare you say that , everyone knows john pertwee was the finest portrayal of the Doctor ever..., along with the UNIT Family story lines :mad:
:( ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Pertwee

---------- Post added at 07:54 ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 ----------

BTW, did anyone remember to email Tim Berners-Lee and tell him to come look at this CF thread and perhaps contribute?.
----------------------------

---------- Post added at 07:57 ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 ----------

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/me...ng-808600.html
---------- Post added at 08:06 ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 ----------

INTERESTING...... bringing in the Phorm UK CEO into the news stories.
something to watch out for, and add some more names to the searchs.

and he talks up the paying crowd on the same day and time as the PIA down london....

see below.
http://www.phorm.com/about/exec_drayton.php
http://www.how-do.co.uk/north-west-m...-200804142351/
---------------------------------

---------- Post added at 08:13 ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 ----------

http://www.eventbrite.com/event/105105373
"
---------- Post added at 08:15 ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 ----------

http://www.manchesterdigital.com/eve...=view&id=67716
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

URGENT

Ok now I'm extremely concerned, a few days ago I installed a programme called Peerguardian 2, I never use P2P but it alerts you when other things are sniffing around too, a few minutes ago an alert set off and here's a link to a screen of the results

http://brumjo.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Phormactive.jpg

It has since gone off a few times, and i now have a blocked list full of it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that ip is mentioned here

does that mean someone on the BY part of the VM network have pluged in and trialed the Virgin Media/Phorm DPI boxs.....

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...grul/comments/
"
A reply to the alleged 'Tech Team' at Phorm

By Anonymous Coward
Posted Sunday 9th March 2008 07:14 GMT
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/04/29.png "In terms of future safeguards, the key is transparency. We will communicate any changes and our claims will continue to be subject to external scrutiny by formal audit, partner due diligence, customer vigilance and media interest."

Thats a hell of a statement to make especially in light of BT's response to their customers "We cant talk about that".

Thats about as far away from transparent as you can get, trying to dupe customers into an extended contract and failing to disclose the T&C.

Will you still guarantee that even in the face of an RIPA order? As far as I can see your organisation is about as transparent as a brick wall.

And now we discover that you are effectively intercepting layer 7.....
You arent winning friends here, given how un-transparently this was revealed to customers you have a lot of work ahead if you want to win trust.

Did the people who's data was pimped to you in the trial get the option to opt-out? were they even told what was going on? Did their ISP communicate what was going on? Did the T&C's mention anything about it whatsoever? Or did they try to cover it up becuase it looked like something very wrong was happening on their network and our businesses interfaces to that network.

You sir and your organisation have all the transparent features of a brick wall.


"But what our research shows is that users worry about security online and prefer to have more relevant advertising."

*******s, users want no advertising, irrespective of whether that is achievable or even cost-effective is another question.

Given the prevelance of anti-spyware and anti adware (funnily both key revenue streams for your organisation) I'd say that the evidence points to the latter.

Those of us who have had to deal with one of your lovely toolbars know exactly how difficult it was to get rid off them once they were on a system.
Needless to say:-
88.208.250.66
88.208.250.85
88.208.248.102
*.live-servers.net

Will be blocked on all ports on my corporate firewall tomorrow. I'll review whether *.fasthosts.net.uk should be as well.

And while you may claim that you were never in the business of spyware/malware, any system that 1. Tracks a users browsing habbits; and 2. Allows you to alter the content of any site that individual visits; sounds a whole hell of a lot like spyware/malware to me, Just because you say you dont do it, does not mean you cant or wont.

PS: Still no KE with horns or cat for that matter. Wishing all the guys at phorm a real shitty day."

---------- Post added at 09:07 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------

and here
#2009

---------- Post added at 09:14 ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 ----------

what on that 192.168.1.100 BTW , your router perhaps?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just phoned VM, once I got through I asked the customer service rep could they tell me when Virgin enabled the Phorm spyware system. She asked me to hold on one moment and put me on hold, then after a minute or two they hung up.

I'm redialling now

Edit: Second CS rep claimed it was a technical problem and I had to phone the 0906 212 1111 number. I said I wasn't paying for that and she said ohh well then I can't help you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Stop

---------- Post added at 09:20 ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 ----------

you want to get a copy of the raw stream first before it goes away for proof later if it is infact something.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I also have installed Peer Guardian 2 and have been following the thread here and on the BT forums, this morning I can no longer reach the BT forums at all as all attempts are blocked by Peer Guardian and showing Phorm .com as the problem.

Does this mean that it is now live and no one bothered to ask for consent ?:mad:


Also showing Phorm.com when viewing this thread.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would it be possible for some one to publish a list of standard letters, to ISP's & MP's

I am sorry if there is a list of standard letters, but I did not see it!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How would I do that Popper?

thanks

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok all new article on the register:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/14/bt_phorm_2007/

".....Today Phorm said the 2007 trial was actually performed on "tens of thousands" of lines. It refused to provide a specific figure, but at the absolute least there are 38,000 BT Retail customers unaware their communications have been allegedly criminally intercepted in the last two years. The number could be as high as 108,000."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

are you also on the BT part of VM.

we ned to find the best way to help you two capture the full data stream.

im looking for a livecd right now to help you boot a clean OS so as to be sure you can run and collect the data.

the question is were do you go to test it and get the required data the net tech guys can then use to pull th useful data off these data captures anyone ?

---------- Post added at 09:30 ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 ----------

forget the letters right now tdadyslexia, if this is what we suspect its our chance to get the data everyones been waiting for.....
we will help you later OK.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I should have perhaps mentioned that I am a VM cable user and would appreciate any details on how to capture the info for later use.

Many thanks to all

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the BY part Ursine or somewere else, whats your UBR use the connection button at the top...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi popper,
Sorry I am not much of a techie, I am having a bit of trouble understanding your last post.

Can you spell it out to me to avoid any confusion and perhaps destroy what what I would rather save securely .
Thanks

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Are you running Pete's Dephormation FF extension?
Do you think *that* be 'confusing' PG2?
Did you use any particular list or IPs with PG2?

I'm installing it now to try to replicate your results!

Well spotted, mate!