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-   -   Russia has invaded Ukraine (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33710768)

Pierre 04-09-2024 08:05
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36182476)
If it was Ukraine, though, good on them. Germany’s early response to all this was spineless in the extreme, and having put their head in a lion’s mouth by signing up to Nordstream 2 while everyone else was warning them not to was stupid. I wish there was a word for the sense of satisfaction you get from watching it all unravel.
It was daring operation, undertaken by privateers but sanctioned by the military, they’ll make a movie about it one day I’m sure

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000666022300

heero_yuy 04-09-2024 08:16
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36182476)
I wish there was a word for the sense of satisfaction you get from watching it all unravel.
Schadenfreude?

1andrew1 04-09-2024 09:07
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36182464)
Is this

Not accurate?
It's certainly at odds with Chris's graph which shows US imports ahead of those from Russia.

My main concern is that you can't extrapolate a trend from one data point, you need several quarters to do so. And when you do this you get an entirely different picture.

And the interviews and quotes are from Russia and Hungary. There's no quotes from other countries and there's no attempt to get beneath the statistics and discover if it's a blip or a trend. They're just taking this as an opportunity to knock the EU and the West.

It could have made the basis of a fascinating article as to whether this is a blip or a trend but instead it was used as the basis of pro-Russian propaganda.

Hugh 04-09-2024 09:39
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36182476)
..snippety snip snip...

Germany’s early response to all this was spineless in the extreme, and having put their head in a lion’s mouth by signing up to Nordstream 2 while everyone else was warning them not to was stupid. I wish there was a word for the sense of satisfaction you get from watching it all unravel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36182480)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I wish there was a word for the sense of satisfaction you get from watching it all unravel.
Schadenfreude?
https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2024/09/1.gif

;)

1andrew1 10-01-2025 00:33
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Donald Trump pushes back Ukraine war deadline in sign of support for Kyiv

US president-elect speaks of six months to end conflict, after pledging to solve it in ‘24 hours’ from taking office

US president-elect Donald Trump has pushed back his campaign pledge to end the war in Ukraine in “24 hours” to several months, in a shift European partners have interpreted as a sign that his administration will not immediately abandon support for Kyiv.

Two European officials told the Financial Times that discussions with Trump’s incoming team in recent weeks revealed they had not yet decided on how to solve the conflict, and that support to Ukraine would continue after the US president’s inauguration on January 20.

“The whole [Trump] team is obsessed with strength and looking strong, so they’re recalibrating the Ukraine approach,” said one of the officials.
https://www.ft.com/content/989dc02e-...0-0b32e098c410

Paul 10-01-2025 01:38
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
You mean his mouth made boasts he cant actually perform in reality ... what a surprise.

RichardCoulter 10-01-2025 14:36
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Just been on the BBC 1PM news that, due to the cold weather, Centrica say that the UK now only has a weeks worth of gas left in storage.

Chris O'Shea, their Chief Executive, said:

Quote:
The UK's gas storage levels are concerningly low. We are an outlier from the rest of Europe when it comes to the role
Is he blaming Brexit here? No mention of the current arrangements in obtaining gas from Russia having any impact, which must surely come into play.

Chris 10-01-2025 15:00
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36189082)
Just been on the BBC 1PM news that, due to the cold weather, Centrica say that the UK now only has a weeks worth of gas left in storage.

Chris O'Shea, their Chief Executive, said:



Is he blaming Brexit here? No mention of the current arrangements in obtaining gas from Russia having any impact, which must surely come into play.
No. In fact, without gas coming via pipeline from Russia the UK has a strategic advantage over continental Europe, because we have extensive facilities for bringing LNG ashore at Milford Haven in south west Wales. Our problem arises from the decision in 2017 to close strategic undersea gas storage off the Yorkshire coast. Its life could have been extended with government investment but the government refused. When we last had a serious gas supply crunch in 2021 plans were announced to reopen it. It has only partially reopened.

RichardCoulter 10-01-2025 16:19
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36189083)
No. In fact, without gas coming via pipeline from Russia the UK has a strategic advantage over continental Europe, because we have extensive facilities for bringing LNG ashore at Milford Haven in south west Wales. Our problem arises from the decision in 2017 to close strategic undersea gas storage off the Yorkshire coast. Its life could have been extended with government investment but the government refused. When we last had a serious gas supply crunch in 2021 plans were announced to reopen it. It has only partially reopened.
Thanks, the Government has since put out an announcement that it has strategies in place to deal with this, maybe this includes utilising the facility that you mention even more??

Chris 10-01-2025 16:48
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36189088)
Thanks, the Government has since put out an announcement that it has strategies in place to deal with this, maybe this includes utilising the facility that you mention even more??
More likely it involves restricting commercial gas supply to prioritise domestic needs.

If things got extra serious they could also cut gas transit from Milford Haven to the Continent and retain whatever comes ashore in the UK for UK use. But that would be a very extreme step because it would be interfering in commercial arrangements affecting our friends and allies overseas. Not all the gas that comes ashore at Milford Haven is purchased by, or for use in, the UK. Much of it flows across south Wales and the south of England, under the Channel and into Europe.

papa smurf 10-01-2025 17:03
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36189089)
More likely it involves restricting commercial gas supply to prioritise domestic needs.

If things got extra serious they could also cut gas transit from Milford Haven to the Continent and retain whatever comes ashore in the UK for UK use. But that would be a very extreme step because it would be interfering in commercial arrangements affecting our friends and allies overseas. Not all the gas that comes ashore at Milford Haven is purchased by, or for use in, the UK. Much of it flows across south Wales and the south of England, under the Channel and into Europe.
luckily i have a multifuel stove so it'll burn just about anything
other peoples fences /garden furniture/sheds/trees.......

TheDaddy 10-01-2025 18:49
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36189090)
luckily i have a multifuel stove so it'll burn just about anything
other peoples fences /garden furniture/sheds/trees.......
Boats... :tiptoe:

thenry 22-01-2025 19:51
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=901

Quote:
Russia responds to Trump threat

Russia's deputy envoy to the United Nations has responded to Donald Trump's economic threats against Moscow.

Earlier, the US president said he would impose tariffs and sanctions "if we don't make a 'deal' and soon".

Now, Dmitry Polyanskiy has said the Kremlin would need to see what Trump thinks a deal comprises of before proceeding.

"It's not merely the question of ending the war," Polyanskiy told Reuters.

"It's first and foremost the question of addressing root causes of Ukrainian crisis."

He continued: "So we have to see what does the 'deal' mean in President Trump's understanding. He is not responsible for what the US has been doing in Ukraine since 2014, making it 'anti-Russia' and preparing for the war with us, but it is in his power now to stop this malicious policy."

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-r...#liveblog-body
Hmmm... How likely is it that Trump agrees. That 24hrs is looking likely but not before his second term begun :(

Chris 22-01-2025 20:09
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Trump has been in the business of saying what he needs to say to his various client groups in order to get elected. Now he’s got elected he’s in the business of doing what he needs to do in order to feather his own nest. He’s a property tycoon, not a politician. Everything is a deal, everything is about his reputation.

What he is not is an ideologue. So notwithstanding any of the Russian talking points the ideologues surrounding him have been parroting, the only way Trump is ever going to intervene in the Russia-Ukraine war is in a way that either makes money or enhances his reputation (or both). Not long ago Trump probably assumed the best way to enhance his reputation was to cosy up to Putin, who he has long regarded as his sort of guy, tough and no-nonsense. The problem now is that Putin is weak and getting weaker. So what does Trump do? I suspect Trump now calculates that the best way for Trump to benefit is for him to put the boot into Putin. And his statement this afternoon would very much line up with that suspicion.

Maggy 23-01-2025 09:56
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36189837)
Trump has been in the business of saying what he needs to say to his various client groups in order to get elected. Now he’s got elected he’s in the business of doing what he needs to do in order to feather his own nest. He’s a property tycoon, not a politician. Everything is a deal, everything is about his reputation.

What he is not is an ideologue. So notwithstanding any of the Russian talking points the ideologues surrounding him have been parroting, the only way Trump is ever going to intervene in the Russia-Ukraine war is in a way that either makes money or enhances his reputation (or both). Not long ago Trump probably assumed the best way to enhance his reputation was to cosy up to Putin, who he has long regarded as his sort of guy, tough and no-nonsense. The problem now is that Putin is weak and getting weaker. So what does Trump do? I suspect Trump now calculates that the best way for Trump to benefit is for him to put the boot into Putin. And his statement this afternoon would very much line up with that suspicion.
Agree completely.:tu:

OLD BOY 25-01-2025 09:12
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36189082)
Just been on the BBC 1PM news that, due to the cold weather, Centrica say that the UK now only has a weeks worth of gas left in storage.

Chris O'Shea, their Chief Executive, said:



Is he blaming Brexit here? No mention of the current arrangements in obtaining gas from Russia having any impact, which must surely come into play.
Russia and our Net Zero fantasy policy are to blame.

1andrew1 25-01-2025 11:00
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36189993)
Russia and our Net Zero fantasy policy are to blame.
Not those and not Brexit either. If the government wants more gas storage capacity, it needs to ensure that it is financially worthwhile for Centrica/other companies to provide it or provide it itself.

Centrica has a duty to provide returns to its shareholders, energy security is the responsibility of the government.

thenry 12-02-2025 16:43
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
US troops will not be used to secure the peace in Ukraine following any ceasefire deal with Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump's new defence secretary has declared, as he signalled a dramatic shift in American foreign and defence policy away from Europe.

Pete Hegseth also said it is "unrealistic" to think Ukraine can return to its pre-2014 borders and he ruled out NATO membership as way to guarantee Kyiv's security.

https://news.sky.com/story/us-troops...llies-13307774
yeehaw! :angel:

Chris 12-02-2025 17:17
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Trump being Trump.

Unfortunately this plan doesn’t account for the feelings of Poland and the Baltics, who know they’re on the front line next, especially with Trump’s America clearly unwilling to engage seriously with the question of European security. He can propose a plan but he can’t force Ukraine or Poland, the Baltics or any other European country to back it, especially if other European countries begin to doubt Trump is good for whatever promises he might make.

He might just manage to galvanise some serious and committed support for Ukraine within Europe.

Hugh 12-02-2025 17:40
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
So Russia keeps what they have illegally invaded, Ukraine don’t get to join NATO, and Ukraine then get to wait for the third invasion - seems equitable…

1andrew1 12-02-2025 18:36
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Maybe there's a Moscow real estate deal to be had whilst Trump's out there? Will there be a big enough bus he can throw Zelensky under?

Quote:
Ukraine latest: Trump invites Putin to US after 90-minute call about 'ending war'

Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump say they spoke for an hour and a half, and will visit each other's countries, as they work to end the Ukraine war. Watch a White House briefing live below.
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-r...atest-12541713

Hugh 12-02-2025 23:12
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/n...weimar-2700212

Quote:
Weimar+ Statement by Germany, France, Poland, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom, the European External Action Service and the European Commission

12 of February 2025 - Paris

We are ready to enhance our support for Ukraine. We commit to its independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity in the face of Russia's war of aggression.

We share the goal to keep supporting Ukraine until a just, comprehensive and lasting peace is reached. A peace that guarantees the interest of Ukraine and our own.

We are looking forward to discussing the way ahead together with our American allies. Our shared objectives should be to put Ukraine in a position of strength. Ukraine and Europe must be part of any negotiations. Ukraine should be provided with strong security guarantees. A just and lasting peace in Ukraine is a necessary condition for a strong transatlantic security.

We recall that the security of the European continent is our common responsibility. We are therefore working together to strengthen our collective defense capabilities.

Chris 12-02-2025 23:47
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
They’ve got to, really. Hegseth has to be fair been quite explicit about the US’s forthcoming Pacific tilt. Even if it wasn’t presently kicking off in Ukraine, Europe has to wake up and take control of its own security. The irony is that in the post WW2 order, Europe not being fully responsible for its own security was the actual idea. American presence was meant to prevent European nations from re-arming to world-threatening levels in the name of self defence, thereby heading off another world war. Now Trump is complaining that America has been paying for European security as if he has no idea that that was the whole point. He probably does have no idea.

Anyway, if there is serious intent behind that statement (and you can bet there is on the part of the Poles if nobody else) it is going to make Trump’s chances of a quick win in Ukraine impossible to achieve. Ukraine won’t agree to 2014 borders, much less 2025 ones, and will feel no obligation to so so if Europe arms it to keep fighting.

Hugh 13-02-2025 00:13
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Agreed re your US forces in Europe - also, we were meant to be the speed-bump* to the Sov forces on their drive Westward, giving Uncle Sam time to fly over the 101st Airborne et al; it was enlightened self-interest on their part, not charity…

Amusingly (unless you were TA), "speed bumps" were also our nickname for the Territorial Army, who, in the event of "The Big One" kicking off, would be used to slow down the Sovs as they tried to progress through the Fulda Gap, so as not to lose too many of the Regulars (well, until they met the buried "Instant Sunshine" mines..).

*speed-bump - slowing Ivan’s progress until Uncle Sam shipped over reinforcements

Hugh 13-02-2025 11:17
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...-negotiations/

Quote:
President Trump on Wednesday would not say whether he considers Ukraine to be an “equal member” of efforts to end the war between Moscow and Kyiv, as his administration pushes for negotiations between Russia and the neighboring country it invaded in 2022.

“It’s an interesting question,” Trump said in the Oval Office when asked if he viewed Ukraine as an equal member of the process.

“I think they have to make peace. Their people are being killed, and I think they have to make peace. I said that was not a good war to go into, and I think they have to make peace. That’s what I think.”

ianch99 13-02-2025 11:43
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36191242)
Putin almost certainly has stuff on Trump, as does Mossad. He is just following orders ...

Chris 13-02-2025 15:53
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
So far today:

Poland’s defence minister gets up to stress that Nato has agreed a plan to strengthen its rapid reaction force
Estonia’s foreign minister tells the BBC there will be no solution in Ukraine without Europe
The EU’s foreign policy & security lead (Kama Kallas, coincidentally Estonia’s former prime minister) criticises Trump for giving concessions to Putin before talks have even begun.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c4g97971rwnt

As I said, Trump can blow as hard as he wants, but the Poles and the Balts will not put up with any outcome that leaves Russia emboldened to think it can continue to restore its Soviet empire. They are pushing very, very hard at Nato and within the EU and I suspect their aim is to head off any attempt to by Trump to force Ukraine to the table by threatening to cut off aid.

Notwithstanding any of the above, Trump is a bent businessman and Putin and the Mossad most likely do have dirt on him. It is nevertheless possible that Trump thinks he can dodge that bullet by saying the right things even if he doesn’t actually have the power to will them into being. There was an interesting moment in his press conference yesterday where he suddenly seemed to need to protest that he is for Ukraine in all of this. But when all’s said and done, who knows. He’s old, in cognitive decline and nursing an easily bruised ego. Anyone who thinks he’s actually running the show here might be interested in a bridge I’m selling.

thenry 13-02-2025 16:00
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Which bridge? The poles and balts along with NATO should move to America. Trumps got a bridge to sell them over there.

Itshim 13-02-2025 16:46
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
If he pulls the USA out its all over the eu will do nothing but huff and puff

pip08456 13-02-2025 16:56
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36191242)
He seems to have forgotten Ukraine did not "go into this war". It merely defended itself. Perhaps he was addressing Putin?

Hugh 13-02-2025 16:58
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191255)
Which bridge? The poles and balts along with NATO should move to America. Trumps got a bridge to sell them over there.
Not sure what you mean - the total population of the non-USA NATO states is 640 million (just under twice the population of the USA), so why should they "move to America"?

thenry 13-02-2025 17:02
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36191259)
Not sure what you mean - the total population of the non-USA NATO states is 640 million (just under twice the population of the USA), so why should they "move to America"?
To be at peace. Trumps knocking on neighbours doors like cadging Karen I'm sure he has a bridge to sell by way of more land.

Pierre 13-02-2025 21:56
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36191221)
I couldn’t imagine such a statement under Biden/Harris…………..

Hugh 13-02-2025 22:12
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36191279)
I couldn’t imagine such a statement under Biden/Harris…………..
December 2024

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/n...690236-2690236

Quote:
We, Foreign Ministers of France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Spain and the United Kingdom as well as the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, have come together with the Foreign Minister of Ukraine today at a watershed moment in Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine.

The goals of a comprehensive, just and lasting peace for Ukraine and durable security for Europe are inseparable. Ukraine must prevail.

This is why after more than 1,000 days of Russia’s illegal war against Ukraine, we remain steadfast in our solidarity. We will continue to support Ukraine in its right of self-defence against Russian aggression.

We condemn in the strongest possible terms Russia’s decision to escalate its war of aggression through brutal and deliberate attacks against Ukraine’s cities and critical civilian infrastructure, by the deployment of DPRK troops and by using intermediate-range ballistic missiles to attack Ukraine.

We will continue to support Ukraine on its irreversible path to full Euro-Atlantic integration, including NATO membership.

We will continue to support Ukraine on its path towards accession to the European Union.

We reiterate our firm support for a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in Ukraine in accordance with international law, including the UN Charter with full respect for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.

We will step up military, economic and financial aid to Ukraine, including by mobilizing additional European funding.
November 2024

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/n...685538-2685538

Quote:
In Warsaw today, the Foreign Ministers of the Weimar Triangle from Germany, France and Poland discussed Europe’s security policy challenges with the Foreign Ministers of Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom as well as the designated High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.

Read the joint declaration here:

We, the Foreign Ministers of France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Spain and the United Kingdom, have come together today, recognizing that our common security is challenged as never before in our lifetimes.

Russia is systematically attacking European security architecture.

For the last 1,000 days, in its war of aggression against Ukraine, Russia has killed many thousands and repeatedly violated international law.

Russia’s reckless revisionism and constant refusal to stop the aggression and engage in meaningful talks challenges peace, freedom and prosperity on the European continent and in the transatlantic area.

Russia is increasingly reliant on partners such as Iran and North Korea in order to sustain its illegal warfare.

Moscow’s escalating hybrid activities against NATO and EU countries are also unprecedented in their variety and scale, creating significant security risks.

To live up to this historic challenge, we are determined to stand united with our European and transatlantic partners to think and act big on European security. European countries must play a still greater role in assuring our own security, acting alongside our transatlantic and global partners.

Today, we therefore consider it imperative to:

reaffirm the enduring role of a strong and united NATO as a bedrock of European defence and security, based on strong transatlantic bond, and ironclad commitment to defend each other, and fair burden-sharing;

strengthen NATO by stepping up our security and defence expenditure, in line with our previous commitments, while reaffirming that, in many cases, expenditure beyond 2% of GDP will be needed to address rising threats to security and meet the requirements to deter and defend across all domains in the Euro-Atlantic area.

strengthen Europe’s security and defence, using all levers available to us, including the economic and financing power of the European Union and by reinforcing Europe’s industrial base. To this aim, we will build on the work in NATO, the European Union, among groups of Allies and with likeminded countries, discuss innovative financing, and remove obstacles to defence trade and investment;

invest in our critical military capabilities, including air defence, deep precision strikes, drones and integrated logistics, as well as in critical infrastructure and cyber defence, while investing in research and development, and using new technologies;

enhance resilience to cognitive warfare and hybrid threats in Europe, also through the relevant EU mechanisms, and promote the resilience of our societies,

further step up our military, economic and financial support for Ukraine, while welcoming the 50 billion dollar G7 loan to ensure that Ukraine has sufficient resources for the next year;

remain steadfast in our support for a just and lasting peace for Ukraine, based on the UN Charter, reaffirming that peace can only be negotiated with Ukraine, with European, American and G7 partners by its side, and in making sure that the aggressor will bear consequences, also financial ones, of its illegal acts that violate rules set out in the UN Charter,

continue deterring Russia, thwarting Putin’s ability to sustain his war of aggression, and constraining the build-up of Russia’s military capabilities, including through restrictive measures.

Pierre 13-02-2025 22:21
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Ukraine give back the bit of territory they took, in return Russia give a little back, but in the main Russia keep what they have taken, with a buffer zone between the new borders of Ukraine and Russia….with assurances that Ukraine will not/ cannot join NATO.

All of which was mooted years ago, but was decried by the Ukraine “total win only” fanatics as “appeasement”.

So I ask those, and you know who you are, should any peace deal that involves ceding territory to Russia be opposed and dismissed, and if not why have you changed your mind?

---------- Post added at 22:21 ---------- Previous post was at 22:14 ----------

February 2025

Quote:

12 of February 2025 - Paris

We are ready to enhance our support for Ukraine. We commit to its independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity in the face of Russia's war of aggression.

We share the goal to keep supporting Ukraine until a just, comprehensive and lasting peace is reached. A peace that guarantees the interest of Ukraine and our own.

We are looking forward to discussing the way ahead together with our American allies. Our shared objectives should be to put Ukraine in a position of strength. Ukraine and Europe must be part of any negotiations. Ukraine should be provided with strong security guarantees. A just and lasting peace in Ukraine is a necessary condition for a strong transatlantic security.

We recall that the security of the European continent is our common responsibility. We are therefore working together to strengthen our collective defense capabilities.
Versus December 2024

Quote:
We, Foreign Ministers of France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Spain and the United Kingdom as well as the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, have come together with the Foreign Minister of Ukraine today at a watershed moment in Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine.

The goals of a comprehensive, just and lasting peace for Ukraine and durable security for Europe are inseparable. Ukraine must prevail.

This is why after more than 1,000 days of Russia’s illegal war against Ukraine, we remain steadfast in our solidarity. We will continue to support Ukraine in its right of self-defence against Russian aggression.

We condemn in the strongest possible terms Russia’s decision to escalate its war of aggression through brutal and deliberate attacks against Ukraine’s cities and critical civilian infrastructure, by the deployment of DPRK troops and by using intermediate-range ballistic missiles to attack Ukraine.

We will continue to support Ukraine on its irreversible path to full Euro-Atlantic integration, including NATO membership.

We will continue to support Ukraine on its path towards accession to the European Union.

We reiterate our firm support for a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in Ukraine in accordance with international law, including the UN Charter with full respect for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.

We will step up military, economic and financial aid to Ukraine, including by mobilizing additional European funding.
Write me a paper on the differences between those two statements and what is in the December one and what is missing from the a February one.

Please Hugh, please………

In case you’re not sure……..this bit was omitted……

Quote:
We will continue to support Ukraine on its irreversible path to full Euro-Atlantic integration, including NATO membership.

We will continue to support Ukraine on its path towards accession to the European Union.

Damien 13-02-2025 22:28
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36191284)
So I ask those, and you know who you are, should any peace deal that involves ceding territory to Russia be opposed and dismissed, and if not why have you changed your mind?
I think it's always been up to Ukraine and it seems they are starting to look at such an agreement.

The thing is Russia has also been worn down as well, unless they want to go for full total war they're reaching the limits of what they can realistically achieve in Ukraine too.

In the end this should never have been 'worth it' for Russia. They've spent three years, lost hundreds of thousands of men, lost billions and decimated their army for a fraction of what they set-up to achieve. NATO has expanded, not retracted, and Russian oligarchs have lost their Western assets.

Hopefully, that makes them think twice if they want to try again in a few years - which history suggests they might.

Chris 13-02-2025 23:40
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36191284)
Ukraine give back the bit of territory they took, in return Russia give a little back, but in the main Russia keep what they have taken, with a buffer zone between the new borders of Ukraine and Russia….with assurances that Ukraine will not/ cannot join NATO.

All of which was mooted years ago, but was decried by the Ukraine “total win only” fanatics as “appeasement”.

So I ask those, and you know who you are, should any peace deal that involves ceding territory to Russia be opposed and dismissed, and if not why have you changed your mind?

---------- Post added at 22:21 ---------- Previous post was at 22:14 ----------

February 2025



Versus December 2024


Write me a paper on the differences between those two statements and what is in the December one and what is missing from the a February one.

Please Hugh, please………

In case you’re not sure……..this bit was omitted……
Your whole question is based on the (faulty) premises that (1) any of this is in Trump’s gift and (2) Putin will negotiate because he wants a settlement.

On 2, Putin isn’t bothered about Nato. He’s bothered about the EU. That is a far tighter political structure, membership of which would remove Ukraine from greater Rus permanently. For this, he needs to normalise the idea that this dispute is a matter for the Great Powers to decide, much as they did at Yalta after WW2.

On 1, the contradiction at the heart of the Trump admin’s position is that they simultaneously want to pivot away from Europe and the cost of maintaining European security, whilst at the same time moving to settle the issue of European security over the heads of Europeans.

For both these reasons, the EU, and Europe more broadly, ought to see that its interests lie in doubling down on support for Ukraine. Based on the comments coming out of the EU this week, and the statement involving the UK, I suspect they will. The absolute worst case for both Trump and Putin is European boots on the ground in Ukraine, perhaps taking responsibility for tasks in the rear to allow Ukrainians to work at the front.

ianch99 14-02-2025 09:30
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Trump has not negotiated with Putin, he has given everything Putin wants right up front. Not unexpected. He will now move to offer more i.e. reduce US troops in Europe. Trumps actions will embolden Putin, if he thinks the US will not intervene and he thinks the EU/UK cannot afford to (meaningfully) intervene, he will start with the Baltics and then maybe more of Ukraine.

Trump following the script: Trump says Russia should be readmitted to G7

Quote:
U.S. President Donald Trump on Thursday said he would love to have Russia return to the Group of Seven nations, saying it was a mistake for Moscow to be expelled.
Trump is an asset ...

1andrew1 14-02-2025 09:43
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
When does Ukraine get to negotiate the return of California to Mexico?

pip08456 14-02-2025 10:22
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Putin is not asting like a man who wants peace. Last night a Russian drone with HE warhead hit and caused damage to the sarcophagos enccasing reactor 4 at Chornobyl (the one that exploded in 1986).

"The shelter at the Chornobyl NPP was damaged by this drone. The fire has been extinguished. As of now, radiation levels have not increased and are being constantly monitored. According to initial assessments, the damage to the shelter is significant."

1andrew1 14-02-2025 12:19
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36191287)
Hopefully, that makes them think twice if they want to try again in a few years - which history suggests they might.
With Trump offering a bagful of concessions on behalf of Ukraine before anyone's got to a negotiating table, the lesson to Russia is try again, odds are that you will lose men, be out in the cold temporarily but will gain territory.

TheDaddy 14-02-2025 14:22
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36191302)
Trump has not negotiated with Putin, he has given everything Putin wants right up front. Not unexpected.
Trump is an asset ...
No sadly not unexpected, the art of the deal in action, yet no one ever wonders what Russia and Israel have on him. Tulsi Gabbard isn't needed with him about

Hugh 15-02-2025 11:56
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://www.politico.eu/article/us-d...itary-support/

Quote:
The Trump administration has proposed to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy that the United States be granted 50 percent ownership of Ukraine's rare earth minerals in exchange for its military support, according to a report by NBC News.

U.S. officials told NBC News that handing over half of its valuable minerals would be a way for Ukraine to reimburse the U.S. for the billions of dollars in weapons and support it has provided to Kyiv since Russian President Vladimir Putin's full-scale invasion began in February 2022.

The American officials also signaled an openness to deploying U.S. troops to Ukraine to guard these minerals, if there is a deal with Russia to end the war in Ukraine.

Pierre 15-02-2025 12:06
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36191368)
Well they’re not a charity, we had to pay for WWII.


We should make sure there is a payment plan for us too, for what we have paid for.

thenry 15-02-2025 12:09
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Hand outs for cry more. Spineless negotiation. Just end the war!

1andrew1 15-02-2025 12:20
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36191370)
Well they’re not a charity, we had to pay for WWII.


We should make sure there is a payment plan for us too, for what we have paid for.
Do you trust Putin to pay up?

Pierre 15-02-2025 12:29
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36191374)
Do you trust Putin to pay up?
We’re not funding Putin’s war effort, we’ll not directly, as far as I know

Hugh 15-02-2025 12:30
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36191370)
Well they’re not a charity, we had to pay for WWII.


We should make sure there is a payment plan for us too, for what we have paid for.
Big difference between paying off loans and being blackmailed into giving up assets.

Also, most of the US funding was spent in the USA.

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article...actually-works

Quote:
The vast majority of U.S. Ukraine-related funding does not go directly to Ukraine; it stays in the U.S. economy, subsidizing the production of weapons in at least 31 states and 71 cities.

While Ukraine gets most of the aid in the form of old American weapons pulled from U.S. reserves, it’s American workers at American companies that make new weapons to replenish them.

America’s military-industrial complex also restocks inventories of its NATO allies who similarly help Ukraine.

Not only does this revitalize the communities around large manufacturing plants in mostly Republican states, but it has created so many high-level jobs that some places are struggling to find enough qualified workers.

thenry 15-02-2025 12:51
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Has the money come from the tree he helped plant during his first term?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-Melania.html

TheDaddy 15-02-2025 13:57
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36191376)

Also, most of the US funding was spent in the USA.
Something that most people overlook, donny damages America and hurts its people daily and those that voted for him seem to be hit worst of all

Pierre 15-02-2025 22:03
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36191376)
Big difference between paying off loans and being blackmailed into giving up assets.
They’re not being blackmailed.

Quote:
They have to pay for the weapons they’ve used
Not controversial

Hugh 15-02-2025 23:47
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36191409)
They’re not being blackmailed.
Quote:
The Trump administration has proposed to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy that the United States be granted 50 percent ownership of Ukraine's rare earth minerals in exchange for its military support, according to a report by NBC News…

… The American officials also signaled an openness to deploying U.S. troops to Ukraine to guard these minerals,
<Tony Sopranos’s voice-over>

Nice country you’ve got here - be a shame if anything happened to it.

We can help prevent that - bada bing, bada boom…

Paul 16-02-2025 02:43
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
So they want Ukraine to pay for (expensive) military support in minerals ? Unusual I guess, but doesnt really seem like blackmail.

Damien 16-02-2025 08:43
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
It seems fair enough and if it helps Ukraine get more support then why not?

What's more concerning is Trump dealing with Russia directly and cutting out Ukraine. I think he and Putin might want to divide up Ukraine between themselves.

Hugh 16-02-2025 08:57
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36191416)
So they want Ukraine to pay for (expensive) military support in minerals ? Unusual I guess, but doesnt really seem like blackmail.
You’re right - it was more of a shakedown/protection racket than blackmail…

It was the way it was approached…

Quote:
One of the senior Ukrainian officials said that Kyiv received the proposed U.S. mineral deal just four hours before Bessent met with Zelensky in Kyiv on Wednesday. In that meeting, the treasury secretary “insisted” that Zelensky sign it immediately. Zelensky did not, the official said.
Quote:
Zelensky had only a few minutes to read the U.S. proposal before his Wednesday meeting with Bessent, said one person familiar with the discussions.
https://wapo.st/40ZiEwv

thenry 18-02-2025 15:34
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
It's incredible how deadlocked negotiations are opened up.

1andrew1 18-02-2025 15:45
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191505)
It's incredible how deadlocked negotiations are opened up.
There weren't any existing deadlocked negotiations to open up as far as I'm aware.

thenry 18-02-2025 15:53
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36191506)
There weren't any existing deadlocked negotiations to open up as far as I'm aware.
So Biden and his countries I mean, crew, I mean I don't know. Nobody was talking to Russia to end the conflict?

Hugh 18-02-2025 16:07
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191505)
It's incredible how deadlocked negotiations are opened up.
It's amazing how negotiations opened up when you don't include the country that was invaded and give away major concessions before the negotiations start...

---------- Post added at 16:07 ---------- Previous post was at 16:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191507)
So Biden and his countries I mean, crew, I mean I don't know. Nobody was talking to Russia to end the conflict?
Russia are happy to end the conflict if the Ukraine agrees to give up more land, disband their military, agree that an illegitimate regime is running the country, and never join NATO or the EU - what's not to like?

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...nflict-updates

thenry 18-02-2025 16:18
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Not everybody lives like you Hugh.

Chris 18-02-2025 16:54
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191510)
Not everybody lives like you Hugh.
What … in the real world?

thenry 18-02-2025 16:57
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36191513)
What … in the real world?
Yes although I'd like to add perfect to your real world. :angel::rolleyes:

Paul 18-02-2025 21:34
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191510)
Not everybody lives like you Hugh.
Indeed, some live in Ukraine (or try to).

Damien 19-02-2025 07:02
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd0n5e1pdz9o

Quote:
Donald Trump has taken aim at Ukraine after its President, Volodymyr Zelensky, said it was a "surprise" his country had not been invited to talks in Saudi Arabia on ending the war with Russia.

Saying he was "disappointed" by Ukraine's reaction, he appeared to blame Ukraine for starting the war, saying the country "could have made a deal" earlier.

A full-scale Russian invasion sparked the war in Ukraine almost three years ago.
This doesn't bode well. I don't know why Trump is so accommodating to Putin.

Chris 19-02-2025 07:25
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Putin knows where the bodies are buried. They are both gangsters and are behaving according to type.

The only possible saving grace at this point is that Trump is behaving so egregiously that European leaders have been forced to confront the fact that America is now an unreliable partner for at least the next 4 years and should now modify their defence policies accordingly, and second, the ‘peace deal’ that eventually arises from this will be so awful there is no way Ukraine will accept it and no way any serious European politician can recommend they do. At some point Trump is going to have to be confronted with the limitations of his influence in all of this, and he will be.

1andrew1 19-02-2025 09:30
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36191533)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd0n5e1pdz9o

This doesn't bode well. I don't know why Trump is so accommodating to Putin.
Probably for the same reasons that Farage has spouted Putin's line on the invasion of Ukraine being the fault of NATO for over-expanding.

Maggy 19-02-2025 10:45
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I'm getting more and more depressed.But at the end of the day nothing has worked at calming matters down so far so maybe Putin and Trump and Musk are the alternative vision of sorting out world affairs?


However upon reflection NAH!

1andrew1 19-02-2025 16:18
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Bit of self-projection going on here!

Quote:
Donald Trump has called the Ukrainian president a "dictator without elections," saying he "better move fast or he is not going to have a country left".

Earlier, Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Trump is "trapped in a disinformation bubble".
https://news.sky.com/story/trump-put...atest-12541713

Hugh 19-02-2025 16:20
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c62e...30abdc659#post

Quote:
Trump takes swipe at Zelensky's leadership

published at 16:06

"Zelensky better move fast or he is not going to have a country left," US President Donald Trump says in a post on Truth Social.

Labelling Zelensky "a dictator", Trump writes: "I love Ukraine, but Zelensky has done a terrible job, his country is shattered, and MILLIONS have unnecessarily died."

Trump says in the meantime, the US is "successfully negotiating an end to the war with Russia".

For context: Zelensky's presidential term expired last May, however Ukraine has been under martial law since the Russian invasion in February 2022, which means presidential elections are suspended.

Europe has failed to bring peace, says Trump

published at 16:08

Trump has also taken a swipe at Europe, saying the war in Ukraine is "far more important to Europe than it is to us".

"We have a big, beautiful ocean as a separation," he says.

He adds that Europe has "failed to bring peace" in the region.

thenry 19-02-2025 16:21
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Donald Trump

"I love Ukraine, but Zelenskyy has done a terrible job, his Country is shattered, and MILLIONS have unnecessarily died – And so it continues..."

"He refuses to have Elections, is very low in Ukrainian Polls, and the only thing he was good at was playing Biden 'like a fiddle'," he added.

"A Dictator without Elections, Zelenskyy better move fast or he is not going to have a Country left."

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-put...#liveblog-body
Someone clearly isn't crying more over Ukrainian.

Quote:
Volodymyr Zelenskyy

"With all due respect to President Donald Trump as a leader....he is living in this disinformation space," he says.

"As we are talking about 4%, we have seen this disinformation, we understand it's coming from Russia," he adds.

The comments come after Trump claimed Zelenskyy had a 4% approval rating in Ukraine.

It should be noted Zelenskyy's rating is in fact around 50%, which is similar to Trump's.

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-put...#liveblog-body
Quote:
Donald Trump

He wrote on his Truth social media platform: "Think of it, a modestly successful comedian, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, talked the United States of America into spending $350 Billion Dollars, to go into a War that couldn’t be won, that never had to start, but a War that he, without the U.S. and “TRUMP,” will never be able to settle.

"The United States has spent $200 Billion Dollars more than Europe, and Europe’s money is guaranteed, while the United States will get nothing back. Why didn’t Sleepy Joe Biden demand Equalization, in that this War is far more important to Europe than it is to us — We have a big, beautiful Ocean as separation.

"On top of this, Zelenskyy admits that half of the money we sent him is “MISSING.” He refuses to have Elections, is very low in Ukrainian Polls, and the only thing he was good at was playing Biden “like a fiddle.”

"A Dictator without Elections, Zelenskyy better move fast or he is not going to have a Country left. In the meantime, we are successfully negotiating an end to the War with Russia, something all admit only “TRUMP,” and the Trump Administration, can do. Biden never tried, Europe has failed to bring Peace, and Zelenskyy probably wants to keep the “gravy train” going. I love Ukraine, but Zelenskyy has done a terrible job, his Country is shattered, and MILLIONS have unnecessarily died – And so it continues….."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...tator-34711053
:shocked: a dictator

Chris 19-02-2025 16:31
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quite.

In the real world, the US has spent around $100bn, and most of that was spent within the US, on US weapons manufacturers.

And Ukrainian law forbids an election taking place while the country is under the present state of emergency. But seeing as Trump now seems to think that a country’s law is whatever the president of the day says it is, it is perhaps unsurprising that he doesn’t understand why they can’t just have one anyway.

The problem here is that Donald J Trump is not very clever. His one skill is being boorish, and getting away with it thanks to a family fortune he never earned (but which he has managed to dissipate at a prodigious rate). On any given policy area he is at the mercy of whichever group has his ear. And on Ukraine that includes Vladimir Putin himself, plus all the other conspiracy-soaked nut-jobs in the US who have attached themselves to MAGA.

Damien 20-02-2025 15:52
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
US is now refusing to call out Russian aggression in Ukraine: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2025-02-20/

I think this is a pretty fundamental shift to the US/Russia backing each other at the UN and G7 against Europe.

What is Europe's arms manufacturing sector like? If all of Europe is now scaling up it's arsenal then can it be purchased within Europe? We probably don't want to buy from Russia/China/US.....

1andrew1 20-02-2025 16:19
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36191609)
US is now refusing to call out Russian aggression in Ukraine: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ts-2025-02-20/

I think this is a pretty fundamental shift to the US/Russia backing each other at the UN and G7 against Europe.

What is Europe's arms manufacturing sector like? If all of Europe is now scaling up it's arsenal then can it be purchased within Europe? We probably don't want to buy from Russia/China/US.....
Zoom is banned by some British government bodies because parts of its business are based in China even if it provides reassurances that it won't store their data there. I imagine organisations might be becoming wary of storing data in the US for similar reasons.

Hugh 24-02-2025 21:44
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-russia-trump/

Quote:
U.S. votes against U.N. resolution condemning Russia for Ukraine war

The United States voted with Russia, North Korea, Iran and 14 other Moscow-friendly countries Monday against a resolution condemning Russian aggression in Ukraine and calling for the return of Ukrainian territory. The resolution passed overwhelmingly in the U.N. General Assembly.

The U.S. delegation also abstained from voting on its own competing resolution that simply called for an end to the war, after European-sponsored amendments inserting new anti-Russian language in the resolution also passed the 193-member body by a wide margin. The amended U.S. resolution also passed.
Non-paywall site - https://thehill.com/homenews/5161380...un-resolution/

Damien 24-02-2025 22:00
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
It's ridiculous how far and fast the pendulum has swung in just over a month. Did anyone see this coming? Russia and America teaming up at the UN to vote against the West.

We are so incredibly screwed if this doesn't rebalance itself. I think Europe was worried that America would disengage from the continent but I don't think it ever seriously considered the prospect the Kremlin would have the backing of the White House.

Putin probably can't believe his luck. Trump backing him at the UN. Defending Russia and blaming Ukraine.

Chris 24-02-2025 22:17
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
The wildcard here is still that a lot of Americans hate Putin, and support Ukraine. Even Trump can’t burn the entire house down.

1andrew1 24-02-2025 23:45
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36191778)
It's ridiculous how far and fast the pendulum has swung in just over a month. Did anyone see this coming? Russia and America teaming up at the UN to vote against the West.

We are so incredibly screwed if this doesn't rebalance itself. I think Europe was worried that America would disengage from the continent but I don't think it ever seriously considered the prospect the Kremlin would have the backing of the White House.

Putin probably can't believe his luck. Trump backing him at the UN. Defending Russia and blaming Ukraine.
In fairness, when Pierre commented that a Trump win would be hilarious, Mr K responded
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36179586)
The World becomes a much a more unstable place, with a dictator given a free hand, to walk through Europe. Hilariously entertaining...

ianch99 25-02-2025 09:36
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36191782)
In fairness, when Pierre commented that a Trump win would be hilarious, Mr K responded
Spot on. It is this moronic "own the libs" mentality that got Trump over the line:

Quote:
That I really don't care that much, but just for entertainment value I think it would be hilarious if Trump won, just to see everybody lose their minds over it.
As Socrates put it:

Quote:
“Democracy is only as good as the education that surrounds it."

Chris 25-02-2025 11:03
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36191792)
Spot on. It is this moronic "own the libs" mentality that got Trump over the line:
I disagree. The US Democrats have veered far further to the left on social policy than even most European countries, which is an irony in itself as Americans generally assume we’re all so far left we’re practically communist.

‘DEI,’ permissive attitudes towards illegal immigrants (the euphemism ‘undocumented’ is telling) and genderism aren’t just dog whistle issues. Collectively they have enraged a lot of people. The Dems dropped the ball by becoming obsessed with these issues and the whole world is less stable because of it.

1andrew1 25-02-2025 11:24
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36191794)
I disagree. The US Democrats have veered far further to the left on social policy than even most European countries, which is an irony in itself as Americans generally assume we’re all so far left we’re practically communist.

‘DEI,’ permissive attitudes towards illegal immigrants (the euphemism ‘undocumented’ is telling) and genderism aren’t just dog whistle issues. Collectively they have enraged a lot of people. The Dems dropped the ball by becoming obsessed with these issues and the whole world is less stable because of it.
Correcting a shift on social policy should never mean handing over the destiny of a foreign country to a bullying neighbour. The Democrats can be blamed for many things but not this.

Chris 25-02-2025 12:00
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36191795)
Correcting a shift on social policy should never mean handing over the destiny of a foreign country to a bullying neighbour. The Democrats can be blamed for many things but not this.
Well, kind of yes, kind of no.

Trump said he was going to do this before he took office. He said he respected Putin and was sympathetic to his grievances. Obviously the Dems are not responsible for Trump pulling the lever on any of these issues, but you and I both know how political histories are written. Years from now the Dems will be held culpable for losing an election against the most unelectable, odious, unqualified candidate ever to run for president, and for doing so twice. In 2016 as much as in 2024 this was theirs to lose. How they contrived to actually lose it ought to be the subject of much introspection.

ianch99 25-02-2025 15:23
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36191794)
I disagree. The US Democrats have veered far further to the left on social policy than even most European countries, which is an irony in itself as Americans generally assume we’re all so far left we’re practically communist.

‘DEI,’ permissive attitudes towards illegal immigrants (the euphemism ‘undocumented’ is telling) and genderism aren’t just dog whistle issues. Collectively they have enraged a lot of people. The Dems dropped the ball by becoming obsessed with these issues and the whole world is less stable because of it.
I don't see the Democrats as to the left of mainstream, Europe, far from it. Most people complain about DEI do not appreciate what the underlying goals are. Some examples:

- In 1990, President George H.W. Bush signed the Americans with Disabilities Act, which requires employers to provide reasonable accommodations to employees with disabilities, and imposes accessibility requirements on public accommodations.

- President Clinton signed the Veterans Employment Opportunities Act in 1998, helps eligible veterans access federal job opportunities by allowing them to compete for positions typically open only to current federal employees and by reinforcing veterans' preference in hiring.

- In 2009, in response to calls for the US government to do more for disabled veterans returning from the conflicts in Iraq and Afganistan President Barack Obama signed executive order 13518, which established the Veterans Employment Initiative to enhance recruitment and retention of veterans in the federal workforce by creating a comprehensive framework to support their transition into civilian employment.

Most reasonable people would not disagree with the above.

There are always examples where programmes like DEI meet resistance, sometimes justified, yet it does not undermine the veracity of basic goals. As with many examples throughout history, populists & autocrats will always try and convince you that something that is not a threat and has undeniable merit should be dismantled because of biased misinformation.

---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 15:18 ----------

The last comment is a sinister one:

Quote:
The Dems dropped the ball by becoming obsessed with these issues and the whole world is less stable because of it.
The world is less stable because of perceived failures of the former administration but not because of the current one who employed industrial levels of lies, misdirection and misinformation to gain power and who is now dismantling the checks & balances of the US democracy?

Wow ...

Paul 25-02-2025 15:23
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36191801)
Most reasonable people would not disagree with the above.
The first one yeah, the other two, not so much.
They are typical examples of discrimination [in favour] of one group over another group of equally qualified people.
There shoud be no discrimination either way.

ianch99 25-02-2025 15:37
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36191795)
Correcting a shift on social policy should never mean handing over the destiny of a foreign country to a bullying neighbour. The Democrats can be blamed for many things but not this.
Yes. The Democrats weren't "obsessed" with these things (DEI, etc.) rather they were just incompetent. It was the GOP propaganda that drove this messaging and it seems, very effectively.

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36191803)
The first one yeah, the other two, not so much.
They are typical examples of discrimination [in favour] of one group over another group of equally qualified people.
There shoud be no discrimination either way.
I think the emphasis here is removing discrimination rather than favouring one group over another. It always comes down to the fact that most people are not in these (historically) discriminated against minorities so fail to appreciate how things can be different.

There will always be cases where such legislation is abused but these would be in the minority. They will, however, be used to misrepresent the process and, as we see, weaponised to tear down the whole construct.

Chris 25-02-2025 15:53
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36191801)
The last comment is a sinister one:



The world is less stable because of perceived failures of the former administration but not because of the current one who employed industrial levels of lies, misdirection and misinformation to gain power and who is now dismantling the checks & balances of the US democracy?

Wow ...
You need to lay off the performative pearl-clutching and understand how historians work.

This concept is no less controversial than criticising Neville Chamberlain for returning from Munich having appeased Hitler. Obviously Hitler caused the war and bears ultimate responsibility for what followed. That does not preclude criticism of those who failed to use what influence they had to slow or stop his preferred course of action unfolding.

In times to come people will look at the train wreck of Trump’s presidencies - the present one most of all - and wonder how the Democrats can have fumbled in order to lose to a known philanderer, abuser, felon and bully, not to mention someone who had already presided over one chaotic term in the White House. The depths of their complacency and their myopic policy obsessions are an outrage and I predict historians will not be charitable to them.

And yes, while whatever horror unfolds in Ukraine this year will primarily rest at Vladimir Putin’s door, he will have been aided and abetted by Donald Trump, who in turn had his chance to make a mess of things because the Dems lost an election that was theirs for the taking. When the history books are written, theirs may only be a minor contribution, but they are nonetheless a factor.

Hugh 25-02-2025 17:10
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Who to believe?

https://www.thetimes.com/article/7b4...a6b7c36fcbfbf3

Quote:
The Kremlin has denied a claim by President Trump that Russia would accept European peacekeeping troops being deployed to Ukraine as part of a potential deal to end the conflict.

Trump suggested on Monday that the Ukraine war could end “within weeks”, as he invited President Zelensky to a meeting in Washington and claimed President Putin had “no problem” with European peacekeeping troops in the country.

But Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s spokesman, when asked on Tuesday about Trump’s comments, referred reporters to an earlier statement that such a move would be unacceptable to Moscow.

thenry 25-02-2025 17:43
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Nobody. We shall see Zelenskyys negotiation skills.

1andrew1 25-02-2025 17:54
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36191815)
Never Trump seems to work well in most situations.

ianch99 25-02-2025 18:09
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36191808)
You need to lay off the performative pearl-clutching and understand how historians work.

This concept is no less controversial than criticising Neville Chamberlain for returning from Munich having appeased Hitler. Obviously Hitler caused the war and bears ultimate responsibility for what followed. That does not preclude criticism of those who failed to use what influence they had to slow or stop his preferred course of action unfolding.

In times to come people will look at the train wreck of Trump’s presidencies - the present one most of all - and wonder how the Democrats can have fumbled in order to lose to a known philanderer, abuser, felon and bully, not to mention someone who had already presided over one chaotic term in the White House. The depths of their complacency and their myopic policy obsessions are an outrage and I predict historians will not be charitable to them.

And yes, while whatever horror unfolds in Ukraine this year will primarily rest at Vladimir Putin’s door, he will have been aided and abetted by Donald Trump, who in turn had his chance to make a mess of things because the Dems lost an election that was theirs for the taking. When the history books are written, theirs may only be a minor contribution, but they are nonetheless a factor.
Straight to the personal attack. You said the the world is "less stable" because of the Democrats. You are wrong. It's like blaming Ukraine for failing to stop Russia invading. It is clear to most who is to blame in both scenarios.

1andrew1 25-02-2025 18:31
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191816)
Nobody. We shall see Zelenskyys negotiation skills.
It's less about his negotiating skills - assuming he's invited to the table - and more about what he's got to negotiate with. As things stand, Trump seems to have taken away most of the cards in Zelenskyy's hand and given them to Putin in exchange for nothing.

thenry 25-02-2025 18:44
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36191820)
It's less about his negotiating skills - assuming he's invited to the table - and more about what he's got to negotiate with. As things stand, Trump seems to have taken away most of the cards in Zelenskyy's hand and given them to Putin in exchange for nothing.
Trumps words shouldn't really matter to Ukraine. The fact Zelenskyy's house of cards has collapsed is more a showing of himself than that of Trump. Why does Ukraine need USA calling the shots? Surely Ukraine take the lead :confused:

Trumps said Russias economy will benefit. Which inturn benefits the world. Sky high costs at the moment because of a needless war is stupid. Refusal to drag the war on is getting something in return.

1andrew1 25-02-2025 19:06
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191821)
Trumps words shouldn't really matter to Ukraine. The fact Zelenskyy's house of cards has collapsed is more a showing of himself than that of Trump. Why does Ukraine need USA calling the shots? Surely Ukraine take the lead :confused:

Trumps said Russias economy will benefit. Which inturn benefits the world. Sky high costs at the moment because of a needless war is stupid. Refusal to drag the war on is getting something in return.
If someone strong backs you up against a larger enemy then you have a good negotiating position. If they then cease to back you up and instead support your enemy then you have a somewhat weaker negotiating position.

The 'needless war' was obviously needed by Putin or it wouldn't have happened.

Chris 25-02-2025 19:13
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36191818)
Straight to the personal attack. You said the the world is "less stable" because of the Democrats. You are wrong. It's like blaming Ukraine for failing to stop Russia invading. It is clear to most who is to blame in both scenarios.
You’re quick to complain about being personally attacked. Sadly you’re even quicker to paint opinions you happen to disagree with as ‘sinister’ and ‘wow…’. I’d rather think such comments are performative rather than representing a genuine belief in the probable ill intent of those you happen to disagree with. But by all means enlighten me if I’ve misunderstood you.

thenry 25-02-2025 19:14
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36191822)
If someone strong backs you up against a larger enemy then you have a good negotiating position. If they then cease to back you up and instead support your enemy then you have a somewhat weaker negotiating position.

The 'needless war' was obviously needed by Putin or it wouldn't have happened.
Why does one need backing up if that one entity quest is legitimate? Somebody berating Russia isn't going to achieve anything. They live a different way, accept it, this world is full of different people.

Russia felt threatened and they responded.

Chris 25-02-2025 19:14
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191821)
Trumps words shouldn't really matter to Ukraine. The fact Zelenskyy's house of cards has collapsed is more a showing of himself than that of Trump. Why does Ukraine need USA calling the shots? Surely Ukraine take the lead :confused:

Trumps said Russias economy will benefit. Which inturn benefits the world. Sky high costs at the moment because of a needless war is stupid. Refusal to drag the war on is getting something in return.
Not sure which particular house of cards you think has collapsed. Are you taking Twitterbots intravenously now? Or did you sign up to trial Elon’s brain implants?

Paul 25-02-2025 19:16
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Perhaps wording is everything here

Quote:
with European peacekeeping troops in the country.
Not calling them "NATO troops", but "European peacekeeping troops".

thenry 25-02-2025 19:16
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36191827)
Not sure which particular house of cards you think has collapsed. Are you taking Twitterbots intravenously now? Or did you sign up to trial Elon’s brain implants?
The house of crying foul play.

Paul 25-02-2025 19:17
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Keep to the topic, not digs at each other.

Chris 25-02-2025 19:17
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36191826)
Why does one need backing up if that one entity quest is legitimate? Somebody berating Russia isn't going to achieve anything. They live a different way, accept it, this world is full of different people.

Russia felt threatened and they responded.
Good grief this is naive.

That’s how the world worked prior to the early 20th century. Great powers and spheres of influence. Post WW2 there is a rules-based world order which the United Nations Security Council is meant to enforce. You know, the UNSC that Russia is a permanent member of?

‘They live a different way’ excuses a whole lot of bad behaviour within one’s borders, but territorial conquest of one state by another is absolutely forbidden by the rules of the organisation Russia is meant to be a principal member of. They can’t have their cake and eat it, and nor should they be allowed to.

ianch99 25-02-2025 19:51
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36191825)
You’re quick to complain about being personally attacked. Sadly you’re even quicker to paint opinions you happen to disagree with as ‘sinister’ and ‘wow…’. I’d rather think such comments are performative rather than representing a genuine belief in the probable ill intent of those you happen to disagree with. But by all means enlighten me if I’ve misunderstood you.
I am responding to your written words, nothing more:

Quote:
The Dems dropped the ball by becoming obsessed with these issues and the whole world is less stable because of it.
As I said, I find this a troubling statement, not least because you fail to state who is in fact responsible for the world become less stable.

I am not being "performative" or "pearl clutching" as you put it. I genuinely am concerned that people actually prefer to put the blame for what the current Trump administration is doing at the feet of the prior administration. I see this as a dangerous and misdirected focus of attention. We should address the real issue and that is who is actually responsible and not wander down rabbit holes of misdirection.


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