Re: Britain outside the EU
 

<in a papa smurf voice>sulking about brexit is still strong in this one<in a papa smurf voice>

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

From the quote by Andrew:
If a migrant jumps in a boat on the French coast, he/she/they must have arrived in France via another European country . . unless they arrived in France through normal means, in which case let's see your passport :rolleyes:

The need to 'prove' something that is glaringly obvious to everyone, is simply another case of European countries passing the buck . . aka 'we don't want them either'

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.

Fretting over the mechanisms we use (or can no longer use) to deport illegal migrants back to other European countries is the very essence of xenophobia. The questions we ought to be asking are what factors drive them out of their home countries in the first place and how can we safely, with international cooperation, resettle them in the most appropriate places. Not how we’re going to get access to fingerprint records so that we can wash our hands of them and leave southern and Eastern European countries to deal with the problem.

Attempting to hitch that to an old debate about strains on UK public services caused by uncontrollable, legal movement of EU citizens is contemptible.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nothing is driving them out. You can't claim you are in danger in a particular country, when you have travelled safely over thousands of miles through and INTO countries that are supposed to be dangerous. You can't have a situation where people in country A claim they are in danger, when they have travelled through countries B, C, etc, and people from those countries ALSO arrive claiming they are in danger. Just doesn't stack up.

You also can't claim your whole family is in danger, when you have left half of them behind, and years later they are all safe, including the twin brother of one of them.You can't claim asylum, when you are living safely in a country and have a job, house etc, but you want to move to another specific country, that won't let you.
How on earth is it only the UKs responsibility to deal with unaccompanied minors? Why aren't France etc legally responsible. Why aren't the EU courts all over the French etc?

If somebody has come from the French coast, then that is where they LEGALLY should be returned to. To do otherwise would be kidnapping, as they have no basis for being in the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Pretty sure that if someone travels somewhere of their own volition, it isn't kidnapping...

You appear to be stating that if refugees/asylum seekers apply to stay in this country, and the UK Government lets them stay here whilst their cases are being considered, the UK Government has kidnapped the refugees/asylum seekers.

Is that really what you meant?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are so missing the point here. Ok, I'll spell it out: Brexit, to a lot of people, was about "taking back control" especially of our borders and now we have (!), it is easier for migrants to come here. Poetic irony.

BTW, who is "Fretting over the mechanisms we use (or can no longer use) to deport illegal migrants"?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Bang on, punt them back to where they came from, France, most of those arriving here are young men, there are a few women and children, but the majority are young men, and who knows what the hell we're letting in, we cannot keep letting these people just turn up on our shores and shown the way to the benefits office!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Bless

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They've come from France, so that is where they have to be returned to. That is the last country they were in.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And what has that got to do with kidnapping?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But you voted against making this possible in 2016. Have you changed your mind?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Now come on - that’s untrue and you know it. Perhaps you would like to exercise a little honesty here and rephrase this so it reflects reality.

The Graun article you posted yesterday doesn’t even make that claim.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I believe it's fair and reflects reality, so I'll expand.

Nomadking knows from the article I posted that we can't just send illegal immigrants back to France anymore as we've left the EU. He is now stating that we should do exactly that. So it suggests he's changed his mind on Brexit as the only way we can do what he proposes is by rejoining the EU. And that makes perfect sense as many others have changed their minds recently too. 53% now back membership.

Source: https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/st...238301/photo/1
https://comresglobal.com/who-we-are/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nice pivot. But by linking this explicitly to some strange attempt at pressing for the UK to rejoin the EU you’re really just persisting in the contemptible reasoning you’ve been engaged in over the past 24 hours, using a humanitarian tragedy to shore up your own aims while misrepresenting others.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well, at least he’s not suggesting we should sink the boats or treat any drowned refugees as collateral damage, so, you know, could be worse…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not really a pivot, it's another reason to suggest that Nomadking has altered his view on Brexit. I'm not pressing for the UK to rejoin the EU any time soon.

It may be uncomfortable for the implications of the Brexit deal upon repatriation to be discussed ,but I repute your allegation that I'm somehow using a humanitarian tragedy - one which you've not defined - for my own aims.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Both suggestions have as much chance of being implemented as anything other suggestion that gets talked about . . . we may as well give them train fare and have done with it ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ignore the faux outrage, it's just deflection, as you say, from the uncomfortable & ironic reality that, as a result of Brexit, migrants find it easily to come here and harder to be removed.

I am surprise he does not know this, after all, he knew what he was voting for.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The migrant tidal wave into Europe is a growing concern, the EU itself is starting to struggle.

Poland has razor wire fencing, other countries also use concrete walls and barbed wire . . . along with armed forces. Negotiations seem to achieve very little.

We have gunboats but prefer to use lifeboats . . .

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They think 100000 will try and make the journey here

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Are you seriously suggesting we fire on unarmed civilians?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are just a big softee, Hugh.:Yes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Guilty as charged - that would be because I understand the that our Armed Forces have to follow the Geneva Conventions, rather than end up in the International Criminal Court like Radovan Karadžić…

I’d rather be a softy than commit a crime against humanity - you obviously think differently…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Actually, no I don’t.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Your post posits otherwise...

"Collateral damage" is permitted (for lack of a better word) under the Geneva Conventions (as war is messy, and it can be difficult/impossible to only strike military targets without any, especially in urban areas), but there is no interpretation where your suggestion that sinking civilians in boats can be described as such.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It is amazing the number of people who were saying 'all lives matter' not so long ago don't seem to want to extend that courtesy to asylum seekers..

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But they're not "asylum seekers" That they could have done in any of the EU states that they passed through. They're economic migrants seeking an easy billet.

From Kelvin MacKenzie, "A spokesman Said"

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Old Boy's entitled to change his viewpoint during a discussion thread after reading others' insights. That's a good thing. But it would make for a less confusing forum experience if he were able to acknowledge such pivots.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Doesn't matter what you call these people, jonbxx's point is still valid. Advocating sinking boats is contrary to believing all lives matter.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Quick question(s):

The UK boats that 'rescue' these plucky migrants from the dangers of crossing the English Channel in an unsafe manner . . do they intercept them only when they enter UK waters?

Does anyone have a link to an article where French boats intercept these same migrants in French waters and take them back to France?


@ Andrew, Hugh and others:
My suggestion of sinking a few boats to discourage others got the reaction I expected . . everyone is up in arms declaring 'good lord man, we can't do that, it's simply not cricket', . . it was as feasible a suggestion as any of the other policies that still don't work, in other words, we can't do a thing about migrants in boats can we.
Notice a few posts later I hinted at we may as well give them free rail fare? Let's go down that route instead then, everyone chips in £20 a week to ensure these poor poor people receive a ticket on trains or ferries to the UK, that way they won't be in any danger, the French will love us (well maybe not) and we will all feel satisfied that we've done our part in saving lives.

Yes, in retrospect I think that's the way to go, free travel to the UK for those who want it . . . and let's not stop there, we could fly them in from Belarus, Hungary, Italy, Greece, Spain to save them all that hardship and danger on their long trek to the French coast, fancy that eh, the UK being the saviour of mankind :D :tu: :luv:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A crime against humanity is not as feasible as any other suggestion…

Is that your approach to house maintenance? "Love, we’ve got some woodworm - let’s burn the house down!".

The French have been taking boats they intercept back to France.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59257107

https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/11/...nglish-channel

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I guess it depends which media articles you read, and whether they're accurate and/or believable.

I read this earlier from a Nov 14 2021 article, no idea if it's true though, which is a growing problem with the internet and journalists (not to mention politicians).

https://www.thelocal.com/20211112/wh...g-the-channel/

But for £20 a week we can stop all this can't we :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

From the same article.

Looks like the French are trying to stop people getting across.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hugh, you take my ‘posits’ far too seriously.

My position is simply that:

1. All migrants wanting to come here should apply to the British Embassy from whichever country they are in at the time, and a fast-track system needs to be in place to process each application.

2. Those people arriving illegally should be rounded up, sent to a detention centre where they are interrogated and then sent back to France with no right of appeal.

We cannot stand by and watch this illegal wave of migrants just continue. It has to be stopped and when we have suitable processes in place, this cruel trade in human lives will cease.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

France is using them as a weapon, so no they will not.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We can make it conditional on the millions of quid they are receiving from us for stopping them leaving France in the first place.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is he taking the piss, the man needs a good hard punch in the face, Madagascar plan, only one solution...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Silly point here, but . . which is cheapest?

a) Give France 60 odd £Million to (allegedly) help prevent these migrants leaving the French shores.

or

b) Give the 500,000 migrants a free £100 ticket to get here safely by ferry/train.

You decide, it's your country too and your input is important on this humanitarian subject :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But by voting for Brexit, the UK has lost the ability to return people to the EU country they came from. That's why I'm confused that people are suggesting this course of action as it could only happen if we rejoined the EU? Or maybe you are suggesting the latter? :confused:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We could turn them back if we had the bottle, sadly that's gone the same way as a sense of humour . . it might offend someone :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

France won't accept this so they will invest less in stopping them and we'll get more immigrants.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Where they are in distress that would break international law

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/research-su...03/duty-rescue

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

oh that's a bummer, never mind, if we can't stop them arriving under huge stress and dangerous conditions it's time to open your wallet and buy them a ticket for SAFE passage here . . or are you happy to see them carrying on as they are?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We do indeed need to do something but it's a complex situation, and leaving human beings floating around in the Channel between us and France is not a solution.

I also do not think it's an issue we can fix by ourselves.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What does international law say about purposely putting your vessel into harms way so that you can circumvent a country's immigration laws.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not complicated at all, it just needs people to pay for their tickets to save them drowning





oohh, waits for answer ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I continue to be shocked by the attitude that these are people that are not worth saving in the same way that anyone else is under the circumstances.

The same applies to us in the UK as it does to those trying to get across the Mediterranean.

The legal status of these people and what laws they may have broken is a separate issue to their immediate distress.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not sure if you misunderstand me or not, I've seen by the posts here that these people are definitely worth saving. . as are similar people worldwide.

I'm now saying that, in order to save these desperate people from the horrors they experience crossing the channel (and other waters around the world), all we need to do is provide the cash for tickets on a safe and comfortable means of transport.

£20 a week isn't much to give is it?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't believe any sincerity in that at all.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I see your point, it's only been an hour or so but I've yet to see a 'go fund me' page set up, or a new 'migrant charity' established.

I'm willing to give it time though . . . it's for a good cause after all . . isn't it? :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You're not wrong there mate, we should just let everyone and anyone come here from anywhere, give them all these lovely benefits that they are coming here for, parts of England must already be the most populated in Europe, we cannot keep letting these people into the UK, the majority seem to be young men, so why make the UK their preferred destination, surely other European countries have plenty of space, or is it, as I suspect, that we are way too soft and offer far more than any other nation.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I've just been thinking, and there may be good news . . . maybe £20 a week is too much and £10 a week will suffice.

Reason being, lots of these migrants 'group up' and pay hundreds of pounds to 'dodgy people' for an old boat with a knackered engine and a gallon of petrol, so all we need to do is convince them that a ticket on a ferry is possibly not only cheaper, but definitely safer . . I wonder why they've not thought of that?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What benefits do illegal immigrants get and how do they compare with other countries? How does that compare with asylum seekers? Also, how many asylum seekers do we have compared with other countries?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Here are some answers to your questions: https://www.unhcr.org/uk/asylum-in-the-uk.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

. . . and while diplomatic discussions take place over the next 2 years, more people will attempt to make the crossing, and some will die trying.

If we and the French - or indeed the EU - can't stop them doing it in an unsafe manner, the obvious humanitarian option is to get them to do it safely . . . tickets please :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Illegal immigrants are not classed or counted as asylum seekers.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-53734793

https://fullfact.org/immigration/can...-uk-illegally/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And those arriving in boats aren't always going to be here illegally until their legal routes to stay in the UK through our existing laws and international obligations have been exhausted.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But we are allowing the importation of terrorists as I don’t think Emad Al Swealmeen is a scouse name. If he was called Barry Al Swealmeen I could buy it.

I’m not saying he came here in that way but he was Syrian and amongst the Syrian, Iraqi, Libyan, Afghan etc etc entrants we are inviting upon ourselves harm.

Liverpool Women's Hospital explosion: Man killed named as Emad Al Swealmeen https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...yside-59298586

I also love how the BBC phrase it as the “man killed in the explosion”. Like he was an innocent bystander or something.

The correct term should have been “ the terrorist carrying the bomb was killed in the explosion”

This may need it’s own thread.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How would we turn them back?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

it looks like we can't Hugh, for many reasons both legal and moral ;)

We can't stop them coming, and we can't return them when they arrive.
For these reasons we should now concentrate efforts on making sure their trip is as safe and comfortable as possible . . it's only £20 a week at worst, and much more preferable than the UK Govt. throwing £Millions at the French wouldn't you think?

There are many who point out that we can't do this that and the other about these poor souls and their desperate plight and, as usual, the result is that nothing ever seems to get done . . . it's a real shame that nobody has bought any tickets yet, it makes me wonder if anyone really wants to stop them crossing rough seas in a dinghy.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The problem with your idea of funding transport for them, Carth, is that this will encourage migrants to come here in even greater numbers. We simply do not have the capacity to let them all in, and this country voted to control immigration.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But how will we virtue signal how tolerant we are to the world if we don't do this, i can't wait to get a jihadi nut case move in next door.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some people may agree with what you say.

Others will cite that these immigrants will ensure the UK becomes more prosperous.
They'll integrate nicely into society and do all the jobs nobody else wants. Housing, health care and education won't be an issue, and the crime rate won't rise any faster than if they weren't here.

Given the benefits that these immigrants bring, we should be encouraging as many as we can to come here from all over the world . . . which brings the question, how much is an economy flight for a family of 8 from Mexico?

We may have to up the cost to £40 a week . . . no worries ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We could subsidise it ,from the foreign aid budget ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There you go, that's just what we need, innovative ideas to get us moving in the right direction.

We could possibly arrange flights using military aircraft that are just sitting unused . . keep these ideas coming folks :tu:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Double post - whooopee

Does anyone else think that the EU (Poland) are using some pretty despicable methods to prevent refugees from claiming asylum at their border?

Strikes me as a bit odd that we can't turn refugee boats around, but they can use barbed wire fencing, gas and water cannons to keep them out.

If the Dublin treaty is so brilliant, why don't they let them in and then kick them back out ;) :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

National and international laws for land and water are different.

Also the Dublin Treaty is between EU countries plus some others. Like us now, Belarus is not a party to it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So Poland can't return them to the country they came from? That's a farce if true.

anyway - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59233244

and

Why can't the UK pass a similar law, we don't still need the EU to allow it do we? :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

if only we had floating barbed wire.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh my word, do the EU know what they're doing?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...os-migrant-law

it goes on

and continues

Rather interesting that the final quote almost mirrors what Poland (an EU country) are currently doing, yet this time the EU are putting the blame on Belarus :spin: :rofl:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some people, you say? Carth, the British people wouldn’t allow it! This would be the biggest misjudgement since Parliament tried to prevent Brexit!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why do you think I'm being cynical?

Surely you remember all the moaning and crying from people and businesses declaring that migrants are desperately needed to help the UK recover from both Brexit and shortages the Covid pandemic has caused?

Now's their chance to make it happen . . but it costs money for the piper to play the tune, and it's all quiet isn't it.

It's starting to look like many countries have decided they now don't need or want the migrants they were quite willing to take in a few years ago . . . that small snowball rolling down the hill has turned into an avalanche . . . who'd have thunk it eh ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The desperation is clear:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FEZe-yEX...jpg&name=small

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

George Useless, everytime he opens his mouth he damages the party more, makes you wonder if he's doing it on purpose

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But if they're already working are they supposed to use some of their mothering time for the slaughter? And then employ nannies?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It'll have it be grannies, we're not giving visas to au pairs and the like either

Perhaps George would like a second job now all the cushy corrupt ones are being outlawed

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"Children, look what mummy has brought you back from work!"

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Looks like the "Madagascar Plan" is alive and kicking.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"Migrants who arrive in Britain on small boats will be sent abroad to have their asylum claims processed" . . . . well, the ones we know about anyway :D

It actually seems another case of 'pass the buck'





oh, am I allowed to use the word 'buck' as it could, in some eyes, be construed as a racist term?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I just heard at a cost of £100,000 each

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

sheeesh, I throw up a perfectly good plan to help everyone (even the USA) for as little as £20 a week, and the Government go ahead with another 'money sink' idea :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Got a good laugh today with strong SW1 vibes as the Guardian ran an article about “desperate” families without an au pair thanks to Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...out-eu-workers

Haven’t we got homeless, unemployed who would be grateful for the opportunity to get a free roof over their heads, free food and can provide childcare for the minimum wage?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sure the drug and alcohol issues won't impact on the posh people's kids in the slightest, mind you they're letting prisoners out on day release to fill gaps so maybe some of the less touchy/ fiddlier ones could be perfectly placed

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

All part of the 'leveling up' thing . . . but in this case it's 'leveling down' to match the North ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Apparently not.

There’s also the small matter of 30 hours work a week for about £100 ‘pocket money’. I suspect they must be applying an absurdly high cash equivalent value to the au pair’s box bedroom in order to avoid a minimum wage violation.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Suspect those who want an au pair want it for the exploitative value, in which case I’m satisfied to see them go without. If they can’t afford childcare they should cut their cloth accordingly and make ends meet like everyone else.

There’s no point propping up the property market with borrowing against two wages that aren’t sustainable.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A friend (a British national, astonishingly) did au pairing in London after leaving school for a couple of years. She had a fair few stories to tell afterwards. Suffice it to say, I have very little sympathy with anyone ‘struggling’ because they’re no longer able to exploit European teenagers while they go about insisting that starting a family never really changed them.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

British jobs for British people, unfortunately.

The move to a high wage economy means mass exploitation like this has to be removed.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If there’s a childcare job there they can pay the minimum wage like everyone else. If there isn’t a job there then so be it.

I’m not going to have sympathy for them, even if I read about their desperation in the Guardian. If we want to have jobs undercut by cheap foreign labour then that isn’t Brexit.

We can’t pick and choose who we let in on the basis of what suits metropolitan elites.