Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I wasn’t suggesting a Brexit extension, Andrew!

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

In a post Covid world all economies are under pressure, only a fool would try find a way to delay trade or make it harder.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I thought you'd seen the light, Old Boy! What are you hoping Japan will do?
Japan won't just grant us the great deal we have at the moment and then negotiate down a worse one! It will compel us to start from ground zero and build up from that.

---------- Post added at 21:28 ---------- Previous post was at 21:24 ----------

Not extending the current deal does exactly as you describe - it makes trade harder and only a fool would do such a thing. Unfortunately, he happens to hold the keys to No. 10.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The point you conveiently miss is that the 6 weeks deadline is only for it to be ratified this year. It is not a 6 weeks or no deal.

If they can't come to an agreement in 6 weeks they carry on and it can be ratified early next year.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Sadly, I think BoJo only has ears for Cummings so is happy to throw British business under the bus.
https://www.ft.com/content/e4da78ae-...1-d3841cc0e005

Somewhat more convincing than Mark Francois' recent comedic effort.
https://www.indy100.com/article/mark...er-erg-9592926

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It's what we've come to expect from this poster.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

More than 100, less than 110 . . 115. . 120?

Drop in the ocean when you look at ALL the company chiefs, entrepreneurs and business groups in the UK.

Oh, couldn't be bothered to read yet another FT article whining about leaving the EU, so no idea how many of this 'more than 100' are owned/part owned by foreign chappies ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

That's what we all hope, it doesn't need adding to every post.

There's always been a divide in the Conservative Party between self-made wealth (Thatcherism, free trade) and inherited wealth (protectionism, state punts in areas like OneWeb). The latter approach tends to be worse for business.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You’re making the false assumption that international trade = good for the economy. It’s good for some economies, for others it’s just haemorrhaging money and skilled jobs.

The point of Brexit is to get trading conditions more favourable to us. Similarly, the USA is running around trying to get trade deals more beneficial to it.

This isn’t about reducing trade barriers at all. It’s about protectionism.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Not quite right: the point is to get conditions favourable to a small but powerful elite. For the majority of the country, it will be unfavourable on many levels.

The double whammy here (or triple if you count Covid) is that the people how are attempting to pursue this mission are part of this incompetent Vote Leave Government. So we are left with the equation to pursue a flawed mission implemented by idiots.

That's going to go well ..

---------- Post added at 08:45 ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 ----------

You are failing to consider the relativity of your perspective, which is understandable. You assume that the Conservative Party's moral and social compass has remained constant and all that has happened is that the Party has been persuaded of the merits of a Hard Brexit. What has in fact happened is that the Party has moved appreciably to the right, driven by Brexit zealotry.

Compared to the Tory Party of the 50's & 60's, this version is a pale but dangerous imitation ..

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Amazing how the bitter taste of defeat is still on your lips.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Bless

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Our tenure within the EU is a fine example of that.

On all sides, it certainly is. But as we have left, the EU wish to protect their interests and us ours. That was always going to happen.

We need to find a way were both parties walk away thinking they have done well, that is the art of negotiation.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So your statement that

Is false.

“Complete bullshit” is I think your preferred parlance.

Delayed trade and stifling trade is the main objective of protectionism. Trade where it suits, restrict where it doesn’t.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

No, I said they should find a way were both parties can do well

Wrong again, I think you find it's "complete bollocks" , much less uncouth.

Isn't that just trade? I've never bought anything I didn't want or paid too much for, and neither have I sold anything less than its worth.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I'll qualify it then - he did say "F---- business."

---------- Post added at 13:12 ---------- Previous post was at 13:01 ----------

The British electoral system means the two main parties have a broad church of opinions which in other countries would form separate political parties. We've seen this with Jeremy Corbyn and Sir Keir Starmer - two distinct Labour Parties.
The Conservative Party is home to traditional free traders who might have voted Whig back in the day. So, that's people like Margaret Thatcher, pro-privatisation and free trade.
It's also home to the traditional landowners, family companies etc who favour a more protectionist approach and are not so against state intervention. That's represented by the current Government.
Of course, it's far more nuanced than this but I've already drifted off topic. ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

2018: 1andrew1. If the UK leaves the Customs Union and Eire remains in it, you can't have a seamless border between Northern Ireland and Eire as well as between Northern Ireland and GB . Something has to give. The EU has offered a solution that NI remains in the Customs Union which effectively puts a border down the Irish Sea.

2018: Protagonist. Don't be so damn realistic, sorry pessimistic! There's some new untested unicorn technology being offered by the team behind the NHS National Programme for IT. It will be world-beating. You just need to believe more. Wait and see!

2019. Boris Johnson. No border in the Irish Sea as a result of my Brexit deal. Trust me. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50430815

2020: Application for border posts at ports sent to EU https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northe...m3=BBC+News+NI

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

More half-baked plans than oven-ready ones!
https://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-liz-truss-letter-boris-johnson-brexit-border-plans-concerns-risks-2020-7?r=US&IR=T

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Pesky Commonwealth country refuses to accept that it needs us more than we need it!
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-brexit-latest

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The UK's final relationship with the EU is a material consideration for the Canucks as they consider the extent to which they can drop trade barriers with us. This is hardly surprising.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Oops, well at least it was in July. :dunce::

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I was half asleep earlier, might even have dreamt it, did Gove say we are going to spend hundreds of millions on border controls? Weren't we told over and over that there was no need for them

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53375713

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Were we not told everything was oven ready...;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Where and about WHAT precisely.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Maggy's one. Then again where is the link about "told everything was oven ready"? Hence question of "where and what about".

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Link
The original "oven ready" reference was JUST about the the Transition Deal. That has been signed, sealed, and delivered, ie cooked.
Link
So NOT about border controls or after the deal ends.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

"With a new Parliament and a sensible majority Government, we can get that deal through in days" per www.conservativehome.com

So why haven't they? Instead, they are spending millions on no-deal preparations which would be unnecessary if the deal was actually as oven ready as Boris Johnson told us it was.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So why haven't they??

They already have, and it ends on 31 December 2020.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

But that oven ready deal is now being amended, because the ERG don’t like it (even though they voted for it) - "No Deal’" isn’t a deal...

The ERG’s in-house newspaper states So, because BJ/DC set an unrealistic timescale to get the WA & PD signed, it was "defective" (whilst at the same time being "oven ready")?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

oh, I must be behind the times (probably an age thing), but I thought the 'transition period' still ended Dec 31st?



No matter though, everything is up in the air at the moment ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Still not seeing that anything is a change to the existing Withdrawal Agreement. Just on things that might be improved for the future.
From your link.
The negotiations are about the future, ie not the Withdrawal Agreement and not this year. Little point trying to renegotiate anything that would only apply for less than 5 months.:rolleyes: After the WA ends, what should happen? From that, currently UK GIs are not protected during the WA. The aim is, for after the period of the WA, that UK GIs are recognised. Rather than sticking with the current arrangement for something, if in the longer term that isn't desirable, why not seek to change it for the future? Perhaps the text of the article should have more correctly said "The UK team has made proposals to improve ON the arrangements in the Withdrawal Agreement". Basically we cannot change how UK GIs are treated for this year, but CAN try to change that from next year onwards.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Looks like the Government has still failed to understand the basic lesson that unrealistic deadlines result in bad deals. :dunce:

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The "badness" came from the previous negotiators, ie May et al. They had years. The choice was for that temporary, interim deal or nothing at all.

Negotiations on the next stage couldn't start until after the WA came into force and we had left the EU.

Even if the issue(UK geographical indications) raised in that article had been fully addressed at the time, it would still need addressing for the future. The problem with accepting a "bad deal" is related to how long that deal applies. If the EU was allowed to get away with this in the deal for the future, then it would be fixed for eternity, not just for less than a year.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Looking at this issue alone, how much are we expected to save each year (contributions, less grants we get back). I'm wondering how many years this amount will be negated to pay the £705m that this new border system will cost.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You were dreaming. After all, we were promised:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EckTD3AXoAEo2o8?format=jpg

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

As has been acknowledged, there is no saving. The greater costs, reduced market access and lower economic growth will be greater than the budgetary contributions. The perceived benefit is in being able to make more of our own decisions.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Perhaps you need to direct that question to David Frost, the Head of the UK’s negotiating team, as he’s the one who think’s there are defects in the existing Withdrawal Agreement...Or you could ask BJ Also, got to love the way No. 10 are now trying to spin the WA as "Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement" - I’m sure it was BJ’s "oven ready agreement" when it went to the country / Houses of Parliament...

As BJ said 3 weeks before the Election

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Who'd have thought the brexit dividend would amount to a 27 acre lorry park, it should be named Farage's garage in his honour, still I'm sure the people that live there, basically huge swathes of Kent, are happy with this, they knew what they were voting for after all

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The WA was Brexit, that was delivered. We have left the EU. No going back. They are NOT seeking to amend the CURRENT arrangements, just ones for the FUTURE. They are looking for the "defects" to be rectified for from Jan 2021. It was "oven ready" as in something Parliament would agree to quickly. They had yet to agree to anything. The EU also had to agree to it, and they had.

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

27 acres is not exactly "huge swathes". Anyway, Link.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Lol, do you honestly believe Michael Gove's BS? It's somewhere for lorries to park. It's 27 acres. It will have a hard surface.

I think The Daddy meant that Ashford was huge swathes of Kent, not the lorry park itself.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

remember the leavers saying there not gonna be a lorry park all project fear well it project reality when brexit meets reality then reality always wins

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Here we go again. I see some are up to the same as before. I have been sick of reading the same "leavers voted the wrong way bullshit", from the Remain side for the last 4 years. You are ALL, (Remain side) getting boring now! :zzz:

We have now left and the transition period ends at the end of the year and that is what Democracy decided, several times, in several democratic processes.

Liberal Democrats who vowed a vote for them, was a vote to stop Brexit, that they would revoke article 50, but they absolutely got wasted in December 2019, so if somehow you are still claiming that the country did not absolutely want to the leave the EU, then you are lying and lying to yourself, not only did the Illiberal Undemocrats lose their leader, they also lost several of the key remain alliance MPs and good riddance to them as well!

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Who cares what you are sick of reading? This country and it's future are more important than your delicate sensibilities. As each lie gets counted off, we'll keep discussing them.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You appear to have me confused with the two people reported as saying there are defects in the Withdrawal agreement, and they need fixing - BJ and David Frost; please feel free to argue with them, as it is they who have said it.

You appear to be stating that our chief negotiator and our Prime Minister are mistaken? :confused:

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The revised Withdrawal Agreement was "oven-ready", as shown by how quickly Parliament approved it. Any future arrangements were NEVER described as "oven-ready", and therefore the reference to "oven-ready" doesn't apply to it.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Oooohoooo, you’re hard.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

In fairness nobody voted on the transition end date and there’s every chance it could still get extended. I really don’t see why, in the current climate, anyone feels so strongly about December 2020 or December 2021.

You won, Mick. You should relax and be happy about it rather than extraordinarily bitter. Getting the best trade deals we can is a common objective, surely?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Best tell BJ, David Frost, and the Centre for Brexit Policy that, then... :D

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

:gpoint:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Don't know about Mick, but I'm happy and relaxed about it.

It seems there are still some who aren't though ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Words fail me to describe the way this government is harming British business and making the UK's productivity even lower. If Brexit doesn't gift the key to No.10 to another party for multiple Parliaments, nothing will!
https://www.ft.com/content/fbc6f191-...4-0fa6e48a9a1e

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

:nono: I and or the rest of the team decide what gets discussed round here, not and never you!

I've counted off plenty of lies made by your losing side.

My sensibilities? :rofl:

Utterly laughable, you're the one whose been crying because you did not get your own way with stupid mass walks in London, to "stop brexit", well take a look around Buster, we are leaving and about bloody time! Nothing you or your side says anymore matters, we won and we are getting what we voted for.

---------- Post added at 23:43 ---------- Previous post was at 23:38 ----------

I am very far from bitter, I couldn't be more ecstatic that finally, the country I was born and live in, can finally have it's own destiny without the pathetic interference from the corrupted and disgusting con job that is the EU.

Poland next on the cards seeing as a Euro-sceptic won the elections yesterday.

---------- Post added at 23:52 ---------- Previous post was at 23:43 ----------

Exactly, they are the bitter ones, the same members all the damn time, clearly reading the utter crap they keep writing, looking for every negative story they can find because it suits their narrative, still saying how wrong Brexit will be, they just cannot stand the fact they lost and lost big (several times) and they have the audacity to say we are bitter. Well bollocks to that suggestion.

Democracy finally won. They lost when they pathetically tried to hi-jack this process by trying to overturn it or by claiming it's not what they country voted for. Wrong again.

---------- Post added 14-07-2020 at 00:07 ---------- Previous post was 13-07-2020 at 23:52 ----------

This should be the given but there are those who just want Brexit to fail completely, and I say this about the EU side as well, they want us to come cap in hand and say how sorry we were to leave them, to be proven right, screw this, those still rehashing old and tired arguments, going on about lies said (By both sides) have no faith in the countries own destiny, to be an independent nation without interference and without giving mass payments for it.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Well said Mick.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Not really, as ever, he's treating as a 'we won' football match. We're all on the same side at the end of the day if you reside in the UK. There's still lots to be decided and therefore debated. 'Easiest deal ever' we were told... :confused:

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Being the bastion of democracy you make out to be I'd have thought you'd be all in favour of an informed democracy, if only so we are spared more of the shameful campaigns that ran up to the brexit vote, who knows we might not be such a fractured society now. Like the way you keep saying it's been decided several times, I haven't voted liberal at a general election since the coalition got in and I don't think I'd ever base a general election vote on a single issue, in fact I think I voted for Theresa May!

Actually he meant huge swathes of Kent will suffer, not just Ashford, for instance from more congestion, pollution, rubbish etc etc

You only get to take part in the debate if you were on the winning team apparently

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You need to factor in the credit side of the equation, such as increased trading opportunities.

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with all these negative stories and comments, Andrew - we are leaving. You may as well accept that. And also, accept that we live in a democracy - we voted out, and that's where we are heading.

---------- Post added at 09:20 ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 ----------

Well, the reason for that, of course is that we have waited for long enough. The objective of those who want delay is to try to prevent Brexit from happening. I think we can all see right through the reasoning at play here. All coming from the remainers, as per usual.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The lesson that has come out of the ERG's dissatisfaction with the current withdrawal agreement is that it was negotiated against tight deadlines and the EU gained the upper hand as a result.

Johnson had the opportunity to learn from this mistake and to extend the withdrawal agreement so the UK was not in such a situation when negotiating the rea. long-terml trade deal.

However, he chose not to and as a result, the UK is likely to get a worse deal than if he had. Like all remain voters I know, we've accepted the result and want the best deal for the country. The quickest deal is in conflict to the best.

Worst-case scenario for the Conservatives is Brexit becomes Labour's useless idiot and unlocks the door to many years of Labour in the same way that Corbyn goifted multiple terms to the Conservatives. The Government has acknowledged that austerity was a choice and it's not so much Rishi Sunak's magic money tree now but Rishi Sunak's magic money forest thus removing the Conservatives' traditional USP.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

That’s a ridiculous assertion The Daddy, you search how many Brexit threads there have been, plenty of debate by either side. So no, actually, you and others have not been censored.

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 ----------

And you think the corrupted EU is acting in good faith in these negotiations?

Yeah sure. *Cough* Bullshit *Cough*.

Your precious EU can do no wrong. Wake up. :rolleyes:

You’ve seen the clips from Brussels, Guy Verhofstadt and Barnier, joking and mocking Britain and how they want to make Britain a vassal state. These pricks, especially Guy Verhofstadt, are not genuinely interested in acting in good faith, they’re offended that we’ve decided to leave their corrupt project.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

You almost get the impression that many who are complaining and moaning about leaving the EU, are not so much worried about trade deals as they are about possible downturns in their private pension funds :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The two things aren’t necessarily exclusive - but anyway, that can’t be true, as the opportunities will make the Stock Market soar...

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Lots of opportunities for tape manufacturers, particularly those favouring a traditional romantic colour. ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Pray, tell what massive change in events is going to happen between now and the end of 2021 that places Brexit in peril between 31 December 2020 and the same date next year?

Remainer politicians didn’t have the competence to thwart Brexit when they had an arguable Parliamentary majority. They most certainly will not be able to do so in the next year and six months without one. Where would such a mandate come from for a start?

Unfortunately for some leavers the ideological blinkers remain. Everyone is the enemy. An extension is about delivering a good Brexit, on our terms, on our own timescale.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Great post - I would probably phrase the last sentence as "An extension is about delivering the least damaging Brexit, on our terms, on our own timescale."

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Can you be sure of that? If the EU were to see it as weakness on our part, which they would, than we would be gamed. And that's in addition to increased contributions to their budget. On the EU's record so far in the negotiations, why would they change their position in our favour?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Asking for an extension is a sign of strength and confidence in striking a robust deal beneficial to everyone, not of weakness by accepting a bad deal because the clock has run down. As we saw with the ERG's analysis on the withdrawal agreement, too short a length of time works against us.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Of course we could game them. The additional year would give us additional time to put underlying frameworks for global trade deals in place.

If the options are to end the transition agreement without a future relationship agreed the date is irrelevant to the UK/EU position - all it means is we have 12 additional months to improve the UK/world position during a global pandemic.

The whole capitalist house of cards is in crisis. It’ll survive, it always does, but the relative positions in the future are all to play for with careful planning.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Bless

---------- Post added at 16:42 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------

That certainly is the implication:



---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:42 ----------

You are forgetting the prime movers behind this project do not and have never have considered the negative impact to the country as a whole. This has always been about ideology and so logic and pragmatism are far down the list of priorities.

One of the sad parts about this process is that the supporters of the project have no regrets about what has been sacrificed on this journey. They are willing to accept literally anything to get over the line .. and at any cost.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

No it isn't. A Moderators/Admin's role is to direct the debate, but I did nothing of the sort yesterday. I do not recall once ever to tell any of you Remainers to shut up or stay silent.

I am however allowed to challenge, dissect and heavily criticise points raised by you and that is what I have been doing.

All I brought up yesterday, was yet again, I am fed up of seeing the same rehashed arguments from you and others, then as usual ranks of accusations of censorship ring out, some of you really don't know what true censorship is.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I’m not forgetting. For many it’s simply about ideology in any case - you don’t have to look far to see some that won’t even entertain an extension for purely ideological reasons. That’s their democratic right.

Remainers squandered their opportunity for a second referendum or a customs union (some argue that’s not leaving - it’s not relevant any more whether it was or wasn’t) and at some point discourse has to move on. The electorate will not elect a 2nd referendum Government. Even if it did, I’m not convinced remain would win.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I agree that the opposition to the Leave project was inept. The "democratic" mandate that drives the vitriol and indignation to any dissent is and always was flawed. Both from a wider definition of democracy and from a moral one. The proposition that 37% of a country's electorate can decide the destiny of the entire population can never be accepted as real democracy. Of course, we have a system that favours a certain outcome. Add the lies, criminality, targeted dark propaganda and misdirection and you arrive at where we are now. Had Leave won, having fought an honourable campaign with a costed and worked plan, opposition would have faded away.

Anyway, we are where we are and in this situation, as Project Fear becomes Project Reality, there is a ongoing need to hold the conmen to task.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You keep telling yourself that if it makes you happy, but in the real world democracy is the least worst means of making decisions despite the fact that it almost always operates on a plurality rather than an outright majority. I don’t believe for one second that you would be making this same argument had the referendum results been precisely reversed.

Active Euro-enthusiasm in the U.K. is and always has been a niche pursuit, just as active Euro-scepticism is. The difference is that the euro-enthusiasts, mostly of the metropolitan, soft liberal left whose connection to the population at large is tenuous at the best of times, smugly assumed that the indifferent masses agreed with them. This has always been their weakness. The sceptics, however, understood that there was genuine anger at various economic and social changes in society and they believed they could motivate the masses to support them if they could show how our EU membership was culpable for those changes.

This they did, the rest is history.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Succinctly put Chris. The big problem, Ianch99 has, is that he is consistently window dressing the idea that it was only the leave campaigns playing dirty, cheating. History recalls that both campaigns played by the same rules.

Remain alliance wheeled out Obama, with back of queue bullshit, that leaving would cause WW3, there would be 500,000 job losses the day after a leave result, that there would be a recession. All lies to scare and to garner votes. That’s how campaigns work, no political campaign is completely clean, and yeah it’s unfortunate.

Then the real dirty tricks by the Hard Remain alliances, criminal investigations launched against the likes of Arron Banks, Darren Grimes and others, who have now been cleared of any wrong doing. Basically, this was some sly attempt to discredit and nullify the result, because it didn’t go their way.

So the country for years kept hearing how the UK was conned in to voting leave, but then several other elections took place, two General Elections and a European Election, in that result, the UK sent to Brussels the Brexit Party with the most MEP Seats. Two other elections saw the nation, swaying to parties or party in 2017, 2019 that would carry out the UK’s wish to leave the EU, and yet this still don’t convince the likes of Ianch99 that the country has mandated its wish to leave the European Union.

I remember a Downing Street petition that had amassed 6 million signatures, to cancel and or revoke A50, though I recall it was possible to sign it several times. Then Echos rang out from Brussels trying to convince UK Government to think again screeching about the petition and how many had signed it, one had to question in what universe did 6 million beat 17.4 million?

Extensions given time and again, only to serve a purpose, they wanted the UK to have another referendum, because they didn’t like the first result and basically that’s how the EU expects democracy to roll in their world, to keep on voting until it gets the result it desires. That is not a true democracy. The UK showed the EU, no, we’ve voted, you got your answer, it now gets implemented.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

^^^

:clap:

Complacency at the top, and a belief the 'masses' would roll over to Government/EU spin

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

@Chris @Mick :clap::clap:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

While it’s nice to see a “we won” party every once in a while there’s still an absolute lack of ideas for what the future could/should look like. Can’t really criticise the Government given the resource being thrown at Coronavirus response and the world being in unpredictable, and unprecedented, times.

Which is what makes the extension the most sensible option.

There’s no China trade deal coming soon. An American deal, what it’d look like, depends very much on what happens in November.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Yeah but to be fair jfman, you at the time said there would be no brexit, it wouldn't happen.

We are on different teams, but can you imagine being told that what you thought you your side had won, to be told, well actually you haven't won. If we are smug about it now and I don't doubt that's how it appears to your side, we've fought a bloody lengthy battle to get here.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

No doubt about that, but would it make it harder or easier to strike a deal with struggling countries?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I made that prediction in good faith, that essentially I believed “the Establishment” wouldn’t allow it, as it had vested economic interests and would undo the error of its ways. I’m sure you’d agree they tried pretty hard.

I also said if it did happen it’d have to “win” either a second referendum or a General Election - which it did in the December 2019 General Election. I also, correctly, pointed out that some of the “Brexit Days” wouldn’t happen and an extension inevitable - that was just observable reality from how unprepared we were to do so.

While I did vote to remain I don’t see it as “my side”. I’ve posted before about how Brexit in theory could work and present opportunities but the complexities around it would in some instances take years to unwind. More challenging if the plan is to not have a comprehensive free trade deal with the EU.

Viewing everything through the prism of Brexit undermines holding the Government to account at a time when it hasn’t been more important to get the decisions right. The ticking clock since triggering Article 50 has clearly undermined UK efforts in the process so far, with each negotiated withdrawal agreement arguably worse than the one that preceded it. The end of the extension period is another entirely arbitrary deadline.

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

I’m sure it’d vary from country to country, but I can’t imagine any country credibly believes that we’ve had a long term coherent plan that involves being on WTO terms with most of the world on 1 January 2021. I think that leaves us in a weaker position than we could be in 18 months.

I’m not sure we’ve held a firm position for 18 months since the referendum between changes in Governments and General Elections.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

This logic is deeply flawed as I have kept telling you so, several times and you would miraculously not be saying this rubbish, if Remain had won, conveniently.

And how many of the 1975's electorate decided the destiny of the country when it joined the Europe Economic Area...?

Lets see...

• In 1975, Population was 56 Million in UK.
  
• 40 Million registered to vote.
  
• Just short of 26 Million people voted in the 1975 Referendum. 17.3 Million (how very nearly ironic) voted Yes to remain in the EEA. Over 8 Million did not.
  
• So out of 56 Million people of the entire UK, just 17.3 Million people, decided the countries destiny and not even half of the 40 Million people electorate, because 15 Million did not bother to vote.

The key words is "not bother" that means they didn't give a shit and also then means, they cannot complain after when the vote goes a way they suddenly don't approve of. They had their right to a democratic process but the they chose not to bother for whatever reason, so you cannot never include them in a total percentage calculation, after a result to try nullify a referendum result, you cannot force people to vote, by not voting is also a true democracy.

So those who didn't vote in either referendum, clearly had no desirable preference, that they got off their arses and decided they had to vote. It's too late in the game to then complain after or attend mass walks.

What the 2019 General Election actually showed is that the silent millions who for the last 4 years, got fed up of being told by the Remainers, that they voted the wrong way, voted again to give the party that fully committed to implementing the result, it's 80 seat majority. (Effectively a landslide victory).

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You fail to address the point as usual but it is expected. There is no moral high ground here to claim. You may believe what you like, the facts are clear for history to judge and the spoils the graceless victors seek to grasp will be as elusive as the promises made ...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Again, your attitude is disappointing. This is not polite debating

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:46 ----------

Please drop the condescending attitude. Chris just replied with his (biased) viewpoint, that's all.

My point about the 37% of voters deciding the future of the country was 100% factual and accurate.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I agree, the 1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum should have had a Supermajority-style minimum percentage & turnout. A minimum electorate majority of around 60% is common for national votes on macro-structural or economic decisions. There are variations on the thresholds but they all demand a clear and obvious majority. See: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Supermajority

As it happened, this was not needed since the vote was passed by 67.23% to 32.77% with a turnout of 64.62%. Clear democracy ..

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You are like a stuck record with this crap. It is the way any democracy works. Those who have the inclination to vote do so and the decision is made by the outcome. Anyone and everyone entitled to vote may do so to take part in that process. If anyone decides, as is their democratic right, not to partake then their non-vote is not counted.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Your involvement of the non-voting electorate is gibberish, they literally did not vote and so they are irrelevant to the point being made.

37% of voters literally, legally and factually decided the future of the country. That's it, no ifs or buts.

What is ironic and so telling is that if the Brexit referendum followed the same rules as Scotland’s first referendum on devolution, the Leave vote would still have won – but Brexit would not now be happening. Those voting ‘Yes’ for devolution was only 33% of registered voters, Scotland on that occasion didn’t get its own assembly, because Parliament had set a threshold of at least 40% of the electorate voting ‘Yes’ before it could happen.

---------- Post added at 22:14 ---------- Previous post was at 22:13 ----------

Is your awareness of the world so limited?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

No it's you who is limited.

Legally, factually wrong. No ifs or buts.

Again,as always, you are including those who DID NOT VOTE! As such they were not voters.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

This genuinely gives me a headache. Yes it was 37%, but that’s the rules Cameron and the Lib Dems laid out.

Cameron, Clegg, etc made an arse of it. Following 2017 every attempt to prevent Brexit has pushed the needle further in the no deal/WTO direction. At some point they should have cut their losses, backed May’s deal, a customs union or put Corbyn in Downing Street. People’s Vote was nothing but a sham to boost the Lib Dems at the expense of Labour. It didn’t work with either aim.

People voted to leave and having tired of three years where nothing got done elected a Government to do it, and to that end Mick is right.

Reraking the terms of the referendum isn’t going to change reality. It’s only going to give the Government more cover from criticism with an easy get out, that galvanises it’s supporters and dismisses it’s opponents out of hand.

It’s entertaining to observe the Government backtrack on promises made and to have underestimated the task at hand. However, unfortunately, we do need them to make the right decisions eventually.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

:clap: