re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

newspaper snobbery is all that some people have, it seems to make them feel special to quote from the chuffigton toast or the daily bowler hat . there the sort of people who go to the library and when asked what book they want reply that thick one [it will make me look clever ] if i leave with that in my hand .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think you might find there are more than a few in this country think that way.

---------- Post added at 21:04 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------

Two months ago the Express said we were going to have the longest ever heatwave. Eight weeks into the cricket season we have so far played two games. I think thats about the limit of the Express forecasting.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My son and my daughter, who are both in their twenties, have always had jobs, with some periods of unemployment - both have worked in bars, restaurants, and offices.

The youth unemployment rate in the UK is around 13.7%, down from 15.9% a year ago - so nearly 7 out of 8 young people do have jobs....

http://researchbriefings.parliament....ummary/SN05871

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Very few brexit supporters think the economy will sail on as before most of us realise there will be an economic hit during the transitional phase and yes Damien we know and understand the economy has an impact on the day to day lives of us all. Honestly the tone from remainers is so off putting in itself this righteous superiority that seems embedded in all remainers as though only they have a clue what's going on or how things work. As stated a few times before and as usual ignored, many put more value on independence and sovereignty and the fact that remain despite all their supposed intelligence can't grasp that fact is another reason your losing the argument.

Vote for short term economics if that's your big concern and let others vote for the things they feel more concern about but it would be really nice if superiority and patronism could be left out of it from all though lately remain has by far demonstrated those traits most often.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think you might find that 'more than a few' isn't a representation of the majority and to imagine anything else is ridiculous. Characterising a nation based on a small number of football hooligans is utter nonsense. I think you need to take a look around and take note of how many good people there are around, for example ordinary people who give generously of their time and money to charities at home and very often overseas. Why not choose to characterise the UK by their morals, behaviour and spirit rather than a small bunch of drunken idiots?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think you are on a losing ticket if you are putting Leave on a platform of moral superiority. Both sides are as bad as each other.

---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:39 ----------

You are not Polish by any chance? ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oh for gods sake do you bother reading I said both but also said lately it's remain talking down to people as if they are simple and not just here it's happening in a few places where the debate is going on.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I was replying to a post that said young people are voting based on roaming fees so pointed out it is also the economy they're concerned about. That isn't talking down to people.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Unfortunately I do bother reading .. depressing isn't it?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

YouGov have Leave 46% and Remain 39%

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They often will work for less money :shrug:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Maybe but who is setting their wages?

Also, a lot of jobs for young people are automatically set at the lowest legal wage so this factor is often removed ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

People who are happy to pay less than the 'normal' rate.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What really depresses me about all of this is the way facts are dissmissed out of hand so easily beacause they don't fit the narrative.

Lafarge was at it at the weekend on immigration after stating we need to get immigration down to 'original' levels... around 30,000 it was pointed out that half of the current immigration is on eu over which we have control and half of that figure is from family members of legitimate immigrants already resident. So that's more than enough to fulfill the quota.

So no more foreign doctors and nurses or any other professions then. I guess that's fine as I'm sure we have UK doctors and nurses just waiting for all of those jobs stolen by immigrants.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Your super soaraway Sun:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/06/35.jpg

Via Guido

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oofff Rupert won't be pleased, then again he always likes to back who he thinks is winning...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well I can confirm the Sun 'coming out' hasn't altered my vote - I'm still voting to get out regardless... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So, Rupert Murdoch thinks we're leaving too and jumping on the bandwagon. He likes to be on the winning side and I don't think he's ever called it wrong before.

---------- Post added at 23:52 ---------- Previous post was at 23:50 ----------

He would've been the one behind the headline!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Excellent

---------- Post added at 06:09 ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 ----------

A good front page from the Sun for once

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

ORB/Telegraph polls Leave 49, Remain 48 this morning, amongst those certain to vote. In the whole sample its Leave 44, Remain 49. Turnout is still going to be crucial to this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...over-a-week-t/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As Nigel Ferage himself said on Sunday. These workers are already there and we can't do anything about it. However, some may not meet the new criteria of the new immigration policy and will be dealt with accordingly. The point of leaving the EU is to kerb this influx of migrants. As I've said before, forget Turkey. There are other poorer countries who will join a lot sooner and that means more heading to our gold paved streets. This is what has to be controlled. If we carry on in the EU our population will reach 70 million before we know it and we just can't cope with that. When I was a kid the population was just over 55 million now I believe it's around 63 million - an increase in the population equivalent to the population of London. What will it be like in the next 50 years if we stay in the EU?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, for twice maybe ... :D

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/06/34.jpg

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Could roaming charges prove to be the clincher I wonder... :D

Seriously, I pay no attention to these polls, especially the early ones. They always fluctuate and frequently contradict each other.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The thing with jobs is not as it was. With the introduction of the Living wage those who wouldn't take these jobs in the past would be only too happy to take them now. This is the reason we have so many immigrants because they were brought over in the 60s to do these menial jobs. Here's an example. How many would flock to drive buses now - A task that was beneath them in the past? The predicted doom and gloom is just that.

---------- Post added at 07:59 ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 ----------

I think the risks are higher staying in given the state of the Euro economy. The Euro WILL collapse eventually and they can't keep throwing cash at Greece forever, can they? This is more likely to trigger a global meltdown rather than leaving.

---------- Post added at 08:02 ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 ----------

Indeed it does. When I was studying Modern Studies, out lecturer told us that the paper you read can say a lot about the type of person you are. It's a kind of status symbol.

---------- Post added at 08:06 ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 ----------

Ah but, have you noticed Summer doesn't really get going until July these days. As a gardener, I can see this year after year. The winters are not as cod and some flowers that would be gone are still there in my garden. At this stage of the year the garden should be a wash of colour but it isn't. The Fox gloves are just blooming now - a month late. The Roses are not out yet but there are plenty buds on them and the Tomatoes are way behind. There could well be an 8 week heat wave right up to the end of September these days.

---------- Post added at 08:12 ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 ----------

This is a case where I wish more would 'jump on the bandwagon' and the leave result would be guaranteed.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Bum-squeakingly close but still remain I reckon. Leave has the lowest odds I've ever seen, one bookie has them evens with the longest odds at 11/8, but the remain campaign remains odds-on, with longest odds at 4/6 and shortest at 8/11.

That said, at the current rate of convergence both will be at parity by tomorrow or Thursday.

EDIT: I refreshed the odds just to be current and in that time another bookie has leave at evens.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sterling is falling, FTSE is falling and the Remain odds are collapsing. This is only going one way.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You better stake your mortgage on it then..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's not snobbery at all ,it's quite simply trying to find a newspaper that will print correct facts and accurate news .The link you posted from the express is a classic example ,it was shown with very little effort to be completely inaccurate and the company that did the poll where very quick to distance themselves from the article.However if you still want to take what they print as gospel that's up to you ,does explain a few things though

---------- Post added at 10:05 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

Despite leaves best efforts to sabotage their own campaign i still think it will be a landslide victory for leave

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

On the other hand, 'Project Fear' requires there to be a genuine chance of Brexit in order to work.

I wouldn't put a bet on this now. It's on a knife-edge.

Great drama for sure. I foresee docu-dramas being made about all this.

---------- Post added at 10:08 ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 ----------

I hope not. This is too important to be decided by silly things, be they jumping on the bandwagon, roaming charges or whatever else.

This ends up being decided by stupidity it undermines the case for more direct democracy as it gives the impression morons decide policy.

EDIT: Damien, I suspect that things will recover either way after the vote. The huge uncertainty is probably weighing heavy on investor confidence.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7026796.html

EU immigration to the UK has not harmed British peoples’ access to jobs, public services or incomes, a major study has concluded.

I'll leave this here..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Some good news for Dave?

EU court rejects child benefits challenge

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Published by the Centre for Economic Performance at LSE.

I'll just leave these here.

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/DP0462.pdf

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/_new/about/finance.asp

[img][/img]

Part of those contracts is not to harm the reputation of the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That headline is patent nonsense - NO negative effect on jobs, incomes and public services? We can argue about the scale of the negative effect but to suggest there is NONE is utter tosh. Tell Kent County Council that migration has had no negative effect on its ability to provide services, including ensuring the welfare of vulnerable children.

It wasn't that long ago that HMG's official advisors on migration were saying this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...nt-report.html

It's perfectly clear, that one of the main reasons people want out of the EU is the evidence before their eyes that mass, uncontrolled immigration is having an adverse effect on their lives, services, housing, jobs, wages etc. I'll grant you EU membership might not be having quite the same negative effect on the LSE and the authors of that report however...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

this is just the start wait till after the referendum and if we remain our "special status" will soon be out the window and they will be handing out Tax Payers cash at the border as part of a welcome package.

Infact they'll probably pay for their travel to get here as well.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yeah, I'm sure the authorities will be just as robust in enforcing the child benefit rules as they are in securing our borders to illegal migrants and deporting those apprehended. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile the problem of migrants living/working here but being able to claim CB for kids not even living in the UK remains for now. What's a fairly modest sum in the UK for a couple of children has been a seriously nice earner for anyone whose family is living in Europe's poorer nations. Rule changes are in the pipeline to restrict the amounts paid to local rates but the Polish are apparently considering raising their rates which will mean the UK might still have to pay more:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...n-eu-deal.html

Interestingly the Poles seem to think child benefit will have the effect of persuading people to have more children...

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/290

Solely for comparison purposes, according to the tables in the above link, the UK rate of CB for 2 kids alone is worth more than the entire household income of a single adult on minimum wage in Bulgaria and Romania, after tax and including benefits.

It'll be interesting to see if the 'loophole' is now closed for good.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I admire your confidence and hope you're right but 51/49 leave will do me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't really think I'm being offered a winning solution. All I've received the in the post is two fact leaflets from either side and I make out (maybe incorrect) a case of being damned if you do and damned if you don't. There's no side with zero negatives but I can't really get enough information without reading wall upon wall of text of arguments and counterclaims. I need simple true summaries to decide if one argument has less negatives and better positives than the other.

Thus far besides the leaftlets through the box. I've had absolutely mad fanatics bouncing around in the town centre (Newcastle) with red leave signs telling me absolutely nothing other than leave.. Then on the opposite side of the monument, the blue side doing exactly the same thing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree but people are going to vote on stupid things like roaming charges. Do the youngsters go abroad that often that it would make a big difference to them?

---------- Post added at 11:10 ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 ----------

EU immigration to the UK has not harmed British peoples’ access to jobs, public services or incomes, a major study has concluded.

Oh really? Is that why the NHS is full of them instead of training and employing our own Citizens?

---------- Post added at 11:12 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------

On behalf of Leave I rest the case. We can't do what we want without the EU say-so. TAKE BACK CONTROL - VOTE LEAVE!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Have a relevant story for the bottom part. Already posted this one in another thread. Before my role as a security advisor I worked through ranks as Static security, Door work, VIP security and finally Security Advisor. This relates to my time as a static officer.

Mr A (Nigerian) and Mr B (Unknown nationality) were both working alongside me on numerous occasions. Both pleasant chaps and spoke clear English. However they were on numerous occasions coaxed into 48-72 hour shifts over a weekend which is illegal and it turns out Mr A no longer had a work visa which they actually knew about but never acted upon. Part two relates to December, Christmas being a very hectic month. The company wanted to bring more staff on and specifically hired non UK born workers because as my manager put they wouldn't complain when released after the new year, some were middle eastern, there was a pleasant Polish chap and a very quiet and strange Danish male, I laughed once after he said Copenhagen but pronounced It as Coopenhargen which was presumably how the Danish say it. Part 1 indicates they should've been hiring extra workers to cover hours without breaking the law. Part 2 indicates they'd favour immigrants because when the work dies down they're easier to fob off.

Also the majority of G4s employees still remaining at the 2012 Olympics were of middle eastern origin at least in Newcastle.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

All i've had is a leaflet from the electoral commission ,nothing from leave or remain and definitely not Camerons tax payer funded leaflet so either he didn't bother sending one out of he's been ripped off by the post office for his delivery charges .Suppose it depends where you live in Newcastle as to whether they bother giving a person information ,we don't get any canvassers for elections either

They pull a funny face and their head hurts when you ask them anything remotely pertinent to the argument :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There are no zero negatives and nor will there be, however damned if you do, damned if you don't is taking it a bit far IMHO.

There will be a hit to the economy if Brexit win or if remain win how long it will last is down to our wonderful diplomats and their negotiating skills for trade deals in the long term. Meanwhile, in the short term trade will not change all that much. Stocks, shares and currency all take a hit in a period of uncertainty and we are in that now. Investors are unsure of how the vote will go and what impact it will have on their investments quite rightly so.

Once the referendum is over their will still be a period of uncertaincy no matter what the result.

If Brexit - will trade deals be made for the longer term and with a wider market (the world rather than what the EU want)

If remain - will the EU now push the UK to even closer integration. consolidation of power etc.

Again IMHO the referendum boils down to this.

Do you wish Britain to become a Sovereign Country again, able to decide it's own laws and have control of all things which affect it's citizens.

Or

Do you wish to relinquish the above to the EU?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I never even got that one the Government spent £9 m on. Guess they didn't think it was worth delivering to the North East.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I didn't get it either, I have a communal letterbox and one of the other lads took exception and ripped them all up. I didn't complain as I would most likely have done the same to mine.:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If that's what you genuinely believe you're going to find Brexit really disappointing if it does happen.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Unsure if this has been posted today:

14 June 2016: Clear shift to leave

After weeks of uncertainty about whether the polls were moving one way or another there now seems to be a clear picture: there has been a shift to leave.

Four polls were published yesterday evening: two by ICM for the Guardian, one by YouGov for the Times, and one by ORB for the Daily Telegraph.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36271589

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

In what way do you expect that Carl?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That works for me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Our economy is not directly linked to the Euro (which is one of the few good decisions Normal Lamont made as chancellor). Problems in the Euro zone may still affect our economy, but they are just as likely to if we leave. As a result, our government may still have to help bail out Eurozone economies, purely to stop them causing problems in our.

Remember, the last recession was caused by problems in the US Economy. You are right in one way, this may or may not happen regardless of whether we are in Europe or not, leaving may also add to the problems.. It all depends on what deals we can negotiate when the existing ones expire.

Regarding the employment of foreign immigrants. First, I find it interesting that many of the companies who are arguing we need to leave Europe are happy to employ foreign immigrants. While I understand they do sometimes have trouble filling jobs with non-immigrants, they often don't have to employ immigrants. They often choose to. They can choose not to, but would prefer to pay less.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

Because we still have to negotiate with other countries, regardless of whether we are in the EU or not. There will be a price for what we want. That price may well be a change in our law, or it may be something that directly affects our citizens. This is the basis of negotiation. You offer the other person something, they offer you something and you hope the price is not too high.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So the problems in Greece do not effect our fiscal policy?

No, it was our under regulated financial institutions (banks) entering the sub prime market in the US, they were after making fast money and bonuses (which they held onto) at the expense of their customers investments.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Blimey ,what kind of negotiations are you expecting :shocked:

I can't think of any negotiations that we would need to be part of that would entail us changing laws or losing sovereignty ,that's why we are leaving the EU to get that stuff back

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How you can even think that is beyond me. I can accept that any country negotiating a trade deal with anyone would expect a certain quality of product that meets their specifications as laid down by their laws. That is part of supply and demand. Can we do it to their specs? - Yes, they then buy from us.

The only other thing I can think of is ethical treatment of workers as is allegedly being applied in trade negotiations centred on Asia.

Please educate me on which of our laws will change due to trade negotiations that will affect the citizens (not companies) of this nation.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This evening's TNS poll is further bad news for Europhiles. It has Leave 7 points ahead, 47-40.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/14/ne...-points-ahead/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We had this last time with the Jockish Ref, they all got their hopes up and then cruelly squashed at the last moment, I still think fear will edge it. (Still hoping it doesn't though)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It doesn't have to be linked to the Euro. It wasn't linked to the Dollar. If they go down so do we. In or out I believe the days of the Euro are numbered.

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------

Not at all. There was only one poll had YES ahead in the Jockanese independence referendum and that was only a small one. The rest all had NO ahead and called it right.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Trade deals frequently require laws to be passed. I.E The proposed EU-Canada deal requires Canada to strength copyright law. Companies want to make sure that countries had strong/favorable/similar regulation and laws depending on the industry. Another example would be cross-border financial transactions would require both parties have sufficient data protection and regulatory standards.

Other examples would be governments demanding tougher action against internet pirates.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not really. The polls closed to about 55-45, which is exactly where the final outcome was. The was one single outlier poll that put Yes fractionally ahead, within a fortnight of the vote. But that was all.

This time, with less than a fortnight to go, there is continuing movement in the polls and Leave has overtaken Remain, substantially in some polls.

This is not the same.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well maybe not the polls, but someone was worried. They sent Monsieur Brown up there to promise them the World, that's not indicative of a Gov't non-concerned about the result.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

(in the immortal voice of Corporal Frazer)

Wur Doomed ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If you are using trade deals as an example then any change will be mutually beneficial and certainly won't require us giving up sovereignty,Stuart made it sound as if we would still be forced to give up sovereignty and change our laws to suit others which quite clearly is never going to be the case if we leave the EU .We ,as a nation, will decide what we accept and don't accept ,we will no longer have the EU deciding for us .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why wouldn't change our laws? It's can be part of a trade deal. Maybe if we want to deal with american financial services we may have to have a bunch of laws detailing how data is dealt with, how we report it and so on. There are many other times that this is the case as well. We give up some degree of control when we join bodies such as NATO, the UN and the European Convention on Human Rights.

The more commitments you make to other nations or international bodies the more you're bound up those commitments. You've removed some ability to act completely independently but have gained something in return.

You talk about sovereignty as if it were a singular thing which you either have or you do not have. In reality hardly any nation is completely sovereign in the sense you seem to mean, i.e completely free from outside influence, but we are sovereign in the sense we can opt out of any of these examples when we want - including the EU - if we're willing to accept the consequences.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The crucial difference is that outside the EU, we alone decide whether the deal is worth the compromise. Trade deals negotiated via the EU result in a mass of compromises aimed at keeping 28 member states happy and may involve us making compromises we would not be willing to make, nor be required to make, if we were acting alone.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Trade deals yes. We would have more control or 'take back control™'. It doesn't mean the trade deals with be as good or easy to obtain. The EU though is an example of where we've traded some sovereignty in exchange for access to the single market. People can decide if the trade-off is worth it or not and many here seem to believe not, fair enough.

However I am just pointing out this isn't a question of not being sovereign and then becoming sovereign. It's just a degree of scale. To be honest I suspect we'll sign up to much of the single market anyway in some weird version of the EEA and just lose the social chapter stuff.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We joined the EEC for access to the single market not the EU.

I have nothing against the single market, I do however have a problem with a "club" that changes the rules once you are in it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Whatever happens if we leave we will manage ,after all the rest of the world survive outside the EU ,mostly quite well

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not many countries' though have started from a position of already being integrated into the EU's market and then leaving. I believe the UK can be fine in the long-term, I just question the merit of the short and medium term to get there.

But that is the economic argument, I was talking about the concept of sovereignty.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The end justifies the means.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wow!

Just "wow!"

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Diamondback moths... arriving from the EU... I hope Camoron tried to stop their sudden migration here.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well the remainers did forecast a plague of pests if we left the EU so maybe they've had a tip off.

I dare say the European Court of Justice will ensure we can't send them back... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

For those interested.

38 Degrees has a new opinion-tracking tool - known as a 'worm' - that helps us all give our verdict on the live TV debates. You can share your reactions using your computer or mobile phone while you watch the telly - then see how it measures up with thousands of other 38 Degrees members. It's a bit like shouting at the telly. Except more satisfying.

It has two buttons that you click during the debate: one for when you like what the person on screen is saying, and one for when you don’t. A 'worm' at the top of the screen records how all of us are voting. If lots of us like what’s being said, the worm goes up. If lots of us don’t, the worm goes down.

Watching politicians on TV can be frustrating - but the 'worm' lets us all have our say. If you want to take part, just click the link below and you’ll be signed up:

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/surveys/480/

The 'worm' tool will also be fact checking some of the biggest claims of the night as they happen. It’ll mean that thousands of us will be able to separate the fact from the fiction right away - and share our opinions with each other. It’s like fact-swapping and comparing arguments with your friends at the pub, but you don’t have to get off the sofa.

You don’t need to install anything and there’s no app to download. (Did I mention it’s dead easy to use?) Just click the link above to sign up. On the night, we’ll send you an email reminder with a link to the 38 Degrees worm.

Here are the details you need to know:

The debate tomorrow is with Michael Gove, one of the leaders of the ‘Vote Leave’ campaign. He’ll be taking questions from a live TV audience.
It starts at 6.45pm, and you’ll be sent a link to the ‘worm’ an hour before. All you need to do is click the link when you’re ready to sit down to watch the debate.
The 'worm' will be available for the other TV debates too - including next Sunday where David Cameron will take questions from a live audience.
There will be live fact checks, made using research by a team of independent experts, which will let you know the truth behind some of the big claims that get made during the debate.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That is bull plop. When Roland from Poland first arrived he was prepared to live 7 or 8 to a house, work casually self employed for under the minimum wage and do all the hours god sent to make the money up, it's not true any more, they're institutionalised into our way of life with its rules and rights, I've seen it hundreds of times literally over the years and it annoys me of to have our own workforce and young people denegrated with such nonsense. If the Poles are so wonderful how did we ever manage to hold our own without them all those years.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You are right it is rubbish .. that Poles stop our "young people" getting jobs. Its a level playing field. There are are jobs and everyone can apply for them .. for now ..

Oh and blaming the Poles for UK youth unemployment is the sort of bilge peddled by "Project Lie"* ..

* I am giving in and am joining the childish name calling just to balance things up a bit

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They did used to stop people getting jobs not because they were so hardworking and wonderful but because of the way they lived here, their depression of wages meant local people couldn't afford the simple things like food and a roof over their head if they competed for jobs with them. It's changed over the last few years and the playing field is more or less level from what I've seen, which is quite a bit to be fair.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Everyone. Whether you are 'in' or 'out' (but especially 'in'), please, please, read this article (or watch the video). It documents the history of the UK & the EU with respect to our democracy:
link
Please read/listen to it :(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And now for Comres:

http://order-order.com/2016/06/14/co...lead-crumbles/

Remain 46
Leave 45

Which is not as comforting for Europhiles as you might think, as this time last month Comres had Remain 12 points ahead.

There's a clear direction of travel here, and it is early enough and substantial enough for Leave to have a small but solid lead by Thursday week.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I mean that's a bit better for Remain. Conventionally logic suggests the change option needs to be far ahead by the vote as you said. And it's not a given that the direction is forever one way, if anything the imminent prospect of Leave would cause further attention to what will happen.

If it was only that poll I would be content. Obviously the other polls are terrible though plus I think they're underestimating the Labour Leave vote.

Anyway Osbourne is going high-stakes now:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/06/33.jpg

Very risky.

I can see the logic. It's outlandish enough to draw attention back the economy and try to make it seem to people that there will be personal ramifications in the event of Leave. Several pages ago I was saying that the underlying poll information says people think it will be fine, this will attempt to undermine that.

He will explain it away by saying £30 billion is what we'll lose right away, we need to pay for that. However people will hate it. It might work in the sense it will play on voters minds in the booth but it's going to damage him personally quite a bit IMO although I guess he has nothing to lose at this point.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Project Fear reaching new heights, Next they will be telling us the sky will fall down :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is it not worth a little pain for a better life?

---------- Post added at 07:03 ---------- Previous post was at 06:56 ----------

A Level playing field and anyone can apply indeed. However, we know the Pols are prepared to work for less so in all honesty, who are you going to employ if you had a business?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If you ignore the fact that the employer is a British one and you would like to think they should pay a "fair" wage for UK citizens, the outcome of your logic is that prices rise.

No immigrants that will "work for less" --> higher wages (by definition) paid to "British" workers --> higher prices

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Doesn't quite work like that .Lots of Poles used to work on the sites with me and no way would they take less pay than the indigenous workers doing the same job .Maybe that would be true on the labour black market but not in the legitimate market

---------- Post added at 08:56 ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 ----------

It's utterly disgraceful for Osborne to threaten voters like that

---------- Post added at 09:00 ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 ----------

Vote leave have issued a road map of what should be done in the event of a leave vote

Vote Leave said over subsequent sessions of Parliament it wanted to introduce:

Finance Bill - This would abolish the 5% rate of VAT on household energy bills by amending the Value Added Tax Act 1994. It would be paid for by savings from the UK's contributions to the EU budget, Vote Leave said

National Health Service (Funding Target) Bill - The NHS would receive a £100m per week real-terms cash "transfusion", to be paid for by savings from leaving the EU

Asylum and Immigration Control Bill - "To end the automatic right of all EU citizens to enter the UK"

Free Trade Bill - The UK leaves the EU's "common commercial policy" to "restore the UK government's power to control its own trade policy"

European Communities Act 1972 (Repeal) Bill - The European Communities Act 1972, "the legal basis for the supremacy of EU law in the UK", will be repealed. "The EU Treaties will cease to form part of UK law and the European Court's jurisdiction over the UK will end," said Vote Leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36534802.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So they have threatened pensioners and working people now can they get any lower I really don't think when people voted in the last general election they knew what a spineless bunch they were voting in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Never be taken in by politicians bearing gifts and promises as you are likely to find they have a habit of never materialising..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm starting to think that in the event of a leave vote we should have a General Election because it is becoming clear that Cameron and Osborne will make it as hard as possible to leave the EU ,they will drag out negotiations for years and invoke article 50 which would again drag negotiations on for years

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Osborne's threats just go to show the depths the remainers will now go to. Unless the UK's fundamentals have changed since February, how on Earth can he reconcile this latest nonsense with what his PM was saying just a few months ago. At no point did they enter into the EU negotiations telling us that they regardless of what they achieved, if we were to leave the EU there'd be a need for massive tax increases or any number of the other catastrophes they've since predicted. Either they've only just worked it all out or they're lying in order to influence the vote and I know which I suspect. I feel they've lost the plot and their campaign has descended into rabid threats. Thankfully a large number of Tory MP's have already confirmed they'd vote against any such move by Osborne but that doesn't diminish the mistake I believe he's just made. If their plan was to issue a new headline-grabbing threat every day then I think they're already scraping the barrel.

Despite being keen for us to get out of the EU, I am fully aware that doing so would not be a bed of roses and will certainly throw up huge challenges, albeit IMHO far less serious problems than remaining in a failing, unreformable club. I acknowledge that there are benefits to remaining inside the EU, especially, if it were able to be reformed, I just don't believe it can be and the intransigence shown by them in earlier this year in the face of the 2nd largest contributor to the club leaving is my evidence.

Regardless of the result of the vote, I think Cameron and Osborne are finished. I can't see many Tories feeling that Osborne could now ever be a credible party leader and I think there'll be a leadership challenge. This massively important issue could and should have been handled so very differently and had HMG had the confidence to avoid the worst of the scaremongering and made their case whilst acknowledging even a few of the benefits of getting out, I feel people would have had a lot more respect for them. As it is, they've clearly misled us about being even the slightest bit open minded prior to the renegotiations and must already have been fully committed to staying in under any foreseeable circumstances. As such their stance has been a complete sham from day one.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Already 57 Tory MPs have signed a letter promising to vote down Osborne's Brexit-revenge budget, if he were stupid enough to present it to Parliament. Apparently he's been on the Today programme this morning claiming he could rely on Labour votes to get it through. I'm not sure why he thinks Corbyn would choose to prop up a Tory government when he had a gold-plated opportunity to bring it down.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I used to have EU funding in a previous job and yes, the contract does say you cannot harm the reputation of the European Union but it goes further to state how this might manifest itself - basically, do not go on a drugs or killing spree on EU funds. This is normal for all grants, EU or otherwise. Do you have information on the grants for the CEP that says something different?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU ultimately wants to be one nation there wont be spain or france or greece it will be one nation ruled by a president/prime minister and elected governments from each region


I'm sure Rome has been down this road before and how well did that work out?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So a saving of £8.5 billion would require a tax increase?

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2016/06/6.png

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He'll be finished in the event of Brexit and he knows it. This is a gesture to get the conversation back onto the economy and he is hoping to get the question asked of Leave: "Well, that would you do?" As long as people are talking about how the migrate the effects of Leaving then that keeps the topic on the idea there will be effects.

Leave today have added the scrapping of 5% VAT on fuel bills onto of the money to the NHS as well as protecting all the money back from the EU. If Osborne is getting ridiculous it's being matched from Leave. Anytime people express concern about a specific area of public life Leave cuts another check for that sector. Farmers? more money! Science? more money! Health? more money! Universities? more money! Taxes? Less taxes! Today they're even claiming a boost to the stock market the day after £20 billion was wiped off.

That said I don't think Osborne's tactic will work at this point. It's just a desperate last throw of the dice.
---------- Post added at 10:12 ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 ----------

[/COLOR]It's based on the idea the economy will slow or enter recession.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We all know Corbyn is incompetent but I don't think he would vote for huge tax rises and slashing the NHS budget.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well I don't have any doubt that it might be a rocky road if we Brexit till we find our feet. but if you want to be a 1 nation country then go for it because that is the only road we are going down.

Either that or WW3 is really coming when all these nations start fighting each other because we don't actually have a common ground.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Damien ,you have an unrivalled ability to understate things :D

It is a clear threat to the voters "vote remain or i will punish you " it shows the way that Cameron and Osborne are thinking ...dictatorship springs to mind

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well it's happening. However I don't see the logic. If they are paid less, how can that mean higher prices? Surely the Company has more money by paying less so can afford to lower prices? I know they don't but there it is.

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 ----------

That seems fair to me and it should to remainers too. There is a lot of reversing of legislation to do.

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 ----------

But they have sunk to the lowest depths. It is suggested an emergency Budget should take place if we vote leave to claw back the £30 million they claim we'll lose straight away. The poor will be hit by that. However, 57 Tory MPs have said NO to Cameron for this. I doubt it will get through Parliament.

---------- Post added at 10:46 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

Well I think it spells the end of the EU as we know it if we leave and that can't be a bad thing. Maybe then we can get back to a kind of Common Market. I voted against the Common Market though I think it's a good idea because I and others at the time could see exactly where it would lead to. We told you so!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The point is that we won't lose £30m or whatever straight away ,under article 50, assuming that is invoked ,we remain a member until negotiations are complete, so in the best case scenario for 2 years we will still be receiving money but in reality the negotiations would take longer because all 27 nations have to agree to the terms of any negotiations.So Osborn's threat is just that a threat to punish us naughty boys and girls for voting against him

The best thing we could do in the event of a leave vote is to not invoke article 50 and just leave ,that is the only way that an emergency budget would be needed

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Have the 'remainers' been promised an afterlife in heaven surrounded by virgins if they get their way I wonder? Maybe it's just a cossetted life in which there'll always be a nice perk laden non job for them somewhere amongst their Euro elite chums which accounts for their tactics or maybe something more sinister. What else could account for the way they're handling this? Maybe they think there's enough people who'll buy into fear for them to get their way but I think they're at the point now where a good many people who've been unsure of their vote will instinctively turn against them because they've lost any trust they had in these people.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Happy to call it that too. Either way he is throwing everything at getting the conversation back onto the economy, think he is knowingly throwing away his leadership chances.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I've always thought that the EU's rapid expansion was ill conceived, bringing as it did so many different nations with their competing interests etc. into a club and hoping they'd all get along quite nicely. The real world isn't like that sadly and what's happening now in the EU gores to show it. Even if we concede that the intent was good, it was certainly naive to believe that such varied cultures, histories and economies could function happily under anything like the constraints of a single state, especially one dominated by Berlin.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Possibly even destroying the current government

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I have a horrible feeling that those on benefits who vote to leave the EU will within a couple of months be hit with sanctions. No evidence for this, just a feeling I have in the pit of my stomach.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed but those not as astute as us can't see that and will vote on a silly reason. Project Fear are really scared now there is an increasing possibility they will lose this vote. If the internet and those I talk to outside are anything to go by Leave will have a comfortable majority but you know what voters are?