Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

i hope Labour get a half decent leader and get them on track again and take some seats from the SNP, as long as they do not help them to get Indy2"

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If Scotland did leave the UK can you still call it the UK...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Technically yes, because the word “United” was added in 1801 on the union of Great Britain and Ireland. That is the union our nation’s long-form title refers to. On the union of England and Scotland the kingdoms became a unitary entity called The Kingdom of Great Britain. So if Scotland left the UK it would be Great Britain that would cease to exist politically, not the United Kingdom. We would be left with a United Kingdom of England* and Northern Ireland.

*Wales is a principality annexed to England - it’s a nation culturally and ethnically but not politically, hence it doesn’t appear in the flag or the name.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The original union flag, minus St Patrick’s saltire, was created on the orders of the (Scottish) King James, when he became king of England, so he could fly a common flag on all his naval vessels, regardless of whether they were English or Scottish. It predates the creation of the Kingdom of Great Britain and the union of the parliaments by 101 years. If an independent Scotland continued to be a constitutional monarchy then the union flag would continue to fly over Buckingham Palace (except when she’s actually there of course). Its use as the national flag would be politically difficult even within England. It’s hard to see English public opinion being positive towards a yes to independence in Scotland. It would look like an insult.

I suspect the opportunity would be demanded to create a new flag that visibly incorporated Wales in some way.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I’m confident, if push did come to shove, and if there was another referendum in 2022 - 2024. They would still stay in the U.K.

I also think the SNP are playing a strange game. At the moment they can ride it all and still seem somewhat relevant . But if there was another referendum, and they lost. What is the point of them?

Be careful what you wish for.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

This is all party management. The proper headbangers in her party are as convinced they’d win indyref2 as they were about winning the first one. Their enthusiasm is undimmed by the minor setback of 2014 which as far as they’re concerned is entirely down to Westminster lies that they now know about and will effectively counter next time.

Sturgeon on the other hand understands the risks of going too soon. Her true position is the one she expressed in 2015 - there needs to be sustained poll support above 60% for a second referendum to be worth the risk.

She needs to sound like a zealot in public to avoid getting defenestrated by said headbangers, who joined the party in droves at the end of 2014, while at the same time ensuring she doesn’t actually get a referendum until it looks winnable. To be fair to her she is right where she wants to be at the moment, with her theatrical demands being rebuffed by a posh English Tory. She’s hoping that nationalistic outrage will now shift the polls in her favour.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

And now the SNP has announced it isn’t going to hold the referendum its already been told it can’t have. A good day to bury bad news, it seems.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-51944044

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Could they hold one regardless, or hold an informal unofficial referendum and, if they win, use this to pressurise the PM?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They have the power to hold a consultation on public opinion on any issue, but it wouldn’t have any legitimacy, especially when compared to the mechanisms that were put in place for 2014. Without an act of Parliament behind it (the actual Parliament that is) there is no obligation on anyone to enact any constitutional changes off the back of it. A referendum without status offers the “no” campaign the obvious strategy of non cooperation, leading to a low turnout but a large yes majority, leading to the British government’s refusal to negotiate, leading to extremists protesting on the streets and ultimately people getting arrested.

I believe the UK gov would be more measured than the Spanish (we shouldn’t forget the psychological difference that exists in some way or other in every country in Western Europe - all of them have been under dictatorships in living memory), but nonetheless the recent experience of Catalan separatists weighs heavily on the Nats here. They see Catalonia as a parallel with Scotland, hence all the Catalan flags you see during the regular zombie shuffles they hold in Glasgow. They know a second referendum really would be the last for a very long time and the ones with brains (and there are some) know therefore that they can’t afford to do anything to risk messing it up.

Coronavirus is an absolute gift to Nicola Sturgeon in this sense. She has been struggling to contain the pressure from the ones without brains (and there are many) to hold a second referendum as soon as possible. She knows this is too risky and prefers to wait, but has found it hard to steer a course that doesn’t risk her getting defenestrated. Her rhetoric has tended only to inflame the berserkers, many of whom seem actually to have believed the UK government would have caved in and granted them a referendum before the end of the year (or failing that, that the SNP would hold one anyway). Of course this was never going to happen, and Sturgeon has simply stored up a problem for herself come year end when no Section 30 Order is forthcoming. Except of course they now have all the pretext they need to simply bury the issue.

There is a Scottish Parliament election next year. Most people in Scotland will now accept that the question of a referendum is put to bed at the very least until that new parliament convenes.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

In fairness it's not like if they announced it last week, or next week, it'd be any further up the running order. The news cycle is full of Coronavirus and the Scottish Government are taking a reasonable action at a reasonable time.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Err no, they’re using a very convenient ladder to get themselves out of a deep hole of their own making. They have spent the last 12 months ramping up the rhetoric about a referendum in order to prevent their movement fracturing, while a referendum is the last thing Sturgeon actually wants as long as the polls remain basically unchanged from 2014. They have always needed a pretext to back down that doesn’t leave the SNP leadership looking weak. For them, the present crisis is perfect cover.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm not disputing that this crisis is more important or that it has got them out of a hole. Just "a good day to bury bad news" implies they're somehow being devious about it or attempting to be selective about their timing.

Everyone but the most extreme pro independence person would accept this is the right thing to do at the right time. And as you rightly point out - will allow the appetite of the Scottish public to be tested in the Scottish Parliament elections.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Jackson Carlaw quits as Scottish Conservative leader.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...om3=%40BBCNews

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I hope they get somehow strong enough to put NS in her place, We all don't want Independence in Scotland,

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Who would want to be a Scottish Tory leader trying to justify Brexit and Dominic Cummings' eyesight tests to a sceptical Scottish audience?
Sadly for the Scottish Conservative Party, it lost a rare electoral asset when Ruth Davidson stepped down as leader.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Ruth D was one of the best to stand up to N S, I just hope they get someone who can stop the separation of the United Kingdom, I don't care if it is Tory, Labour or the Queen of Sheba,

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The unionist parties in Scotland are all falling into the same trap.

None offer a compelling or progressive alternative vision for Scotland. They struggle to “sell” the Union to the electorate. All they offer is negativity and fear. The Conservatives are doing slightly better than Labour at getting the orange vote.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Scotland had it's once in a life-time vote, and they voted to stay.

If they did leave, how are they going to pay for the roads and free prescriptions with fewer people in a country than live in London

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's about the romantic notion of sovereignty rather than sound economics.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No the nats hate the English.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Nah - just the politicians and the anti-Scots bigots...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Spot on, Chris, the SNP have one goal and one goal only, they need to get on with the day job, their tunnel vision for independence knows no bounds, Sturgeon is a sleekit little bitch, they are definitely using the Covid crisis to further their ambiton of a free Scotland, they forget to remember that 60% of their trade is with England, the education system in Scotland used to be one of the top performers world wide, its about third from bottom now, same with the NHS it's a complete mess!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

“Get on with the day job” patter is fantastic from unionists.

I can’t remember the last time Scottish Labour or Conservatives made a policy proposal. I frequently forget the Lib Dems exist.

Trade isn’t a good reason to not be self-governing. Seph will back me up here.

You’ve also got a curious way of phrasing that the Covid situation allows the SNP to demonstrate competence against the backdrop of UK Government incompetence.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

away and bile yer heid.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Any Brexiter should be able to endorse your statement that trade isn't a good reason to prevent self-government, not just our esteemed Wokingham contributor.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Absolute guff from you mate, the SNP are good at spinning, they also lied through their teeth with their "once in a generation" quote, about independence, only to come back now trying to force another vote, how many times is it then, best of three, best of five? Yeah tell me about their ambition, absolute **** are the SNP!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Laughable response. Name a single policy any other party in Scotland have proposed in the last decade? I bet you don’t run out of fingers on one hand when it comes to counting them up.

No vision, no positive vision, no clue. Which is why the SNP could be bang average and still win an election in a Scotland. All that’s propping unionism up is the Orange vote and that won’t last. The opposition should learn from the late Dr. Paisley that shouting “No! No! No!” is not a long term viable strategy.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Do you live in Scotland? If not what the **** would you know? Without Westminster handing out billions due to the covid crisis where would sturgeon and her cohorts have got the funds from to help people when furloughed? I wish they had a policy on, say, education, for instance, its a mess, so give me some clues on where we are with that on policies as you seem to think you know it all, As for your comment on the orange vote, are you serious or on drugs, wtf has that got to do with the vote, laughable and typical response from Mr Knowall...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No need to resort to swearing, it drags the debate into the gutter.

Orange voters are more likely to vote for a Unionist Party. Surely as someone with his finger on the pulse of Scottish politics you’d find that observably true and it simply weakens what little other arguments you have to vociferously contest it.

Where I am permanently resident is of no relevance. We don’t restrict discussions on this forum by geography as far as I am aware.

I too wish that the Unionist parties had policies on education in Scotland, on social security, on reviving the rural economy, reviving the high street and dealing with the day to day issues people in Scotland face.

Have you run out of fingers counting those policies yet?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Policies come from being in Govt, you can't tell me that the other parties do not have any policies designed to meet the necessary requirements to run a country?
13 years in, the performance of schools and the management of hospital projects are, in particular, giving cause for concern, so there's two failures straight away in their so called policies for a better Scotland, as for your continued comments about the "orange" vote, where are you coming from with that comment? Are you trying to bring religion into this? I'm pretty sure all of the Scottish voters who voted No in the last referendum were not "orange" lol....

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Spot on mate, and they never politicise the covid crisis either, yeah right.

The SNP is facing accusations of hypocrisy and poor taste for selling face masks in support of the party and independence in the week Nicola Sturgeon accused Boris Johnson of politicising the pandemic.

Last week the first minster castigated Johnson when he said the UK government’s response to the Covid crisis underlined the economic benefits of Scotland remaining in the Union.

Sturgeon said: “I don’t think any of us should be trying to use Covid and the pandemic and the crisis situation we continue to face as some kind of political campaigning tool.”

It emerged yesterday that her party is fundraising with SNP-branded face coverings, costing £8 to £14. The range includes a mask with a “Yes” logo, signifying support for independence..

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I’m sincerely unaware of any policy put forward by the other parties in Scotland. All they trot out is “get on with the day job” yet, in their day jobs, offer no alternative vision.

I’m not trying to bring religion into it, however it’s important to consider demographic trends when considering the direction of travel.

Scottish Labour and the Scottish Conservatives fighting over the same voter base by waving their Union Flags the hardest is fundamentally no different from two bald men fighting over a comb.

You’ve claimed two sets of failures yet none of the opposition parties are able to lay a glove on the SNP on the basis of either of them. They’ve no proposals to fix these claimed issues. There’s just the same old tired rhetoric that has lost the last 3 Holyrood elections and will likely lose the next one.

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 ----------

Political party sells tat for fundraising. It’s not new, or unique to the SNP. If that’s the worst you have on them then I look forward to them steamrollering through next year.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Well if Scotland is going to leave the UK it's not going to happen under the SNP,maybe it's time for other nationalist parties to have a go as nothing has moved since the SNP came to power.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I wouldn’t wish to tell the roughly 50% of Scots who support independence how to vote, although I know who they won’t vote for next year if they don’t have any kind of positive vision or any better ideas that putting Ruth Davidson in a Union Flag draped tank.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Lol, a serious question to you, do you want Scotland to be an independent country, and if so, why?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35301298

I don’t know why you chose to bold the section of that sentence you did, it happened.

My opinion is unimportant - I’m “Mr Knowall”. You put it best yourself a mere few posts ago:

I’ve made points about the lack of a compelling offer from the Unionist parties, which you’ve been unable to contest and for that reason my response to the thread title as given is “yes” Scotland will leave the UK. Whether I want it to or not isn’t the question posed.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Here's how well the snp are doing with these policies.

Two-thirds of the Scottish population live in Health Board areas which are in special measures, targets in our NHS are routinely missed or dodged, there is a crisis in homelessness, and a care sector on the brink of collapse. School attainment is falling, working-class school-leavers in Scotland are less likely to go to university than anywhere else in the UK, and the FE sector has been decimated losing 160,000 places in recent years.

The SNP have presided over all of this, with the First Minister being the longest-serving Health Secretary in Scottish history until she took the helm – and asked to be judged by her record on education.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yet those Health Boards routinely outperform those in England?

I don’t think anyone gives any credibility or meaning to the numbers going into further education. Teflon Tony’s 50% target was always just a means of getting numbers off the dole. We don’t need more social sciences or media studies students racking up tens of thousands of debt that will never be paid back.

Where are the opposition proposals?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They also imposed higher taxes on the Scottish working people, so i'm still wondering why you are so keen on this party?

---------- Post added at 12:52 ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 ----------

Do they?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yes.

Higher tax (which actually most people don’t pay) isn’t a bad thing if the state is providing better value (or perceived better value) to citizens. Free personal care for the elderly, no tuition fees, etc.

I’m wondering why they get you so angry if they’re so incompetent surely they will lose in 2021?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I would assume those would come to light if they were voted into power, you cannot tell me that a party voted into governing a country has no proposals? Labour used to be the strongest party in Scotland and somehow lost its way, the Tories were never getting into power neither were the Liberals, I just do not see the benefit of an independent Scotland, imo we are far better off being part of the UK, only my opinion of course and that of many others in Scotand.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

How do these parties propose to win elections without policies? The SNP offer a vision that gathers support. You don’t support them, and I suspect never would, which is fine. Your vote doesn’t win or lose elections in Scotland.

The unionists fight each other for the same ~50% of the vote. No one is trying to win the other 50%. Too wee, too small, doesn’t cut it.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Are you seriously saying that the other parties don't have any policies?? Why would they not have any? I would assume their policies would come to light when there is a general election, then and only then would people see what they are and would then decide who to vote for based on their policies.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I’ve asked you to name some and here we are, an hour and a half later, and I’m none the wiser.

There’s one policy: “no”.

Take politics out of it and make it about any commercial offering and you want to expand your customer base. Do you try to make the best product to appeal to 100% of the market or do you fight another two companies for 50% market share by selling a like for like interchangeable product that the other 50% have rejected for over a decade. It’s completely irrational yet here we are. They’re devoid of ideas.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm also into an hour and a half and you still haven't said anything about the quote from sturgeon in 2014 about her " once in a generation" speech for independence.
Tbh with you, I'm not really sure what the others may have up their sleeve as far as policies go, but id assume it would be to fix the education and health service as a priority, because its totally knackered in Scotland, SNP have mismanaged Scotland for thirteen years, and without handouts from the UK govt would be down the tubes years ago.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I don't understand the issue, I haven't read them but they're easy to find.

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/policy/manifestos/

https://scottishlabour.org.uk/where-we-stand/manifesto/

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I don’t need to justify a point I didn’t make - so why would I waste my energy? “One in a generation” has no legal or constitutional basis. It was a politician on a stump speech. Circumstances change.

To quote Farage he didn’t think if Brexit lost 52-48 that would be the end of it. As long as people support the parties campaigning for these changes then they are entitled to keep the issues on the table. That’s democracy in action, and people get to reject independence as much as they please if they want.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

The parties don’t talk about them or make the compelling case. If you turn on the TV, or go onto social media, it’s all the constitutional question from Scotland’s unionist parties.

The average voter doesn’t read through party manifestos. They become aware of policies from media coverage, sound bites and active campaigning on these issues.

If I don’t know any, and Mad Max can’t name any, and we’re both sitting on the current affairs forum. There’s a problem.

You’d never vote Labour but I bet you could name policies you disagreed with at the General Election. I may be doing you a disservice, because you are politically aware, but I doubt you had to read the manifesto to find out the bits you disagreed with.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I have taken this from the labour manifesto as kindly posted by Pierre, isn't this a policy?
I know what you are saying, jfman, about it not being put across to the general public via mainstream media etc, but it's definitely a policy.

Our manifesto is the most radical, hopeful, people-focused, fully-costed plan in modern times. It has a £100billion investment plan for Scotland, a plan that will be transformational for our communities.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Well I voted for Blair 1st & 2nd time around, but many would say that wasn't voting Labour.

You get the policies thrust at you when election time comes around, as the parties are selling themselves. Hence the policy a day from the Labour at the last election effectively lost them the vote as the policy a day free give away was unbelievable to the sensible electorate.

To be fair I wouldn't expect the Holyrood elections to be big news in Yorkshire, and I am also uninterested in the nuts and bolts of Scottish politics, as I don't live there.

I would expect Mad Max and other residents in Scotland such a Chris to be much more versed in these matters.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Sounds like a reasonably compelling policy - didn’t hear it mentioned once in 2017. Heard monotone Richard Leonard say we are tired about talking about independence plenty of times. Yes Richard, we are tired of hearing you talk about independence, move on. Trying to out-Tory the Tories on the union is (and remains) a waste of time.

The independence movement isn’t one big homogenous voting group, and a significant proportion are less than 10 years in the ‘movement’. There’s also (not many but they’re out there) no voters who just think the SNP provide the best government. But if nobody is selling them an alternate vision of Scotland then they will eventually stick.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

sorry folks, but that's given me my best chuckle of the day . . . so far ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You said they had no policies for Scotland. Your attention has been drawn to their policies. You make it up as you go along, and you make no attempt to Google it before telling others they are wrong.

Of course all the mainstream political parties have policies. Why would you think otherwise?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Are you following me round the forum trying to land a single solitary jab?

If it is so bad that you are now holding up the Scottish Labour manifesto from 2017 that magics out of thin air £100bn for Scotland then that’s surely a sign of desperation.

I’m sure nobody took me literally, and I’ll ask what the point of a political party is if nobody can names it’s flagship policies? Or a campaign that fails to sufficiently increase awareness off said policies among your target voter base?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'd quit while you're behind, if I were you, mate. :erm:

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

I see you've picked a vote winner with that one!:D Surely, you don't really believe that hard pressed families would welcome a tax rise!

This is Scotland we are talking about.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If I’m aware of anything Old Boy it’s to know not to take advice from you on when to quit while behind. You’ve been flogging the same dead horse since 2014 in the TV section.

More tax is relative Old Boy. Privatised public services do not come “free”. A student saving 36 grand in tuition fees might think paying slightly more tax is better than leaving uni saddled with a huge debt. Similarly the Bank of Mum and Dad probably don’t fancy picking up the tab either.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

SNP (and independence) at their highest level ever in Yougov polling for the Scottish Parliament election despite Red Card Ross being coronated as Scottish Conservative leader and the exams “fiasco”.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Fish & Tourism probably . . . oh and Irn Bru :p:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No whisky section in Waitrose, chaps?

Might be offset by a trade deficit in Buckfast though.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Red Card has been in post for mere days and I’d be surprised if he, or the exams fiasco (why the “”? it is undeniably a feck up on a grand scale) will filter through quickly under present circumstances.

Our left-leaning members were quick to claim Boris’ popularity has been merely the rally round the flag effect inherent to any major crisis, but oddly enough they’re all still in awe of Nicola Sturgeon, whose decision making on Covid issues has been near identical to those taken in Westminsterland. The Natbots on social media have been waxing lyrical about differences that amount to a few days here or there, or a few more or a few less people in any given space.

Election time will bring it all out ... exam estimates that were 20% over-egged was a blatant political hot potato to all those with sight of it long before results day but they let the moderated grades out and then had no choice but to damage the credibly of the vast majority of accurate grades by backtracking. That’s A-grade political ineptitude. Meanwhile the £230 million ghost ferry MV Sannox slinks into a dry dock in Greenock, more than twice its budget already spent, more than 2 years late and still not in service thanks to an ill-judged deal to save a shipyard run by one of Nicola’s mates. Ferguson couldn’t cope with the job, scot gov owned Cal Mac couldn’t make up its mind what it wanted ... a perfect storm with Nippy sitting at both ends of it.

They’re a sad shower and a poor excuse for a government, and if Red Card Ross (assisted by the newly ennobled Ruth Davidson) play it right they will get a very hard time in next year’s election. Their message needs to be, “we already know there isn’t going to be another Indyref, so let’s talk about...” and then relentlessly target schools, hospitals, police, island ferries, and everything else the SNP has violently screwed up while spending the last decade or more obsessing over independence at the cost of everything else.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Only pointing out that there's no Red Card bounce, that's all. :)

My use of "" is to represent that I think the "fiasco" is broadly manufactured given the system proposed wasn't substantially different from that proposed in England (Tories) or Wales (Labour).

Cases are lower per capita and deaths lower per capita. Nor are the Scottish Government urging everyone 'back to the workplace' to get buying coffee and muffins to get the economy going.

These nuanced differences could be the difference between a chaotic winter of 'whack a mole' lockdowns or relative stability, while observing some restrictions.

So what alternative mechanism exists? Poor schools didn't become good schools overnight. Every year students open their results to disappointment.

This is where the criticism falls down - the lack of alternative ideas and vision.

13 years of mudslinging hasn't worked in persuading SNP voters back across to a Unionist party

I'd love to see the Scottish Conservatives offer an alternative vision however I suspect they will not and the same old tune plays out next year.

Your first line "we know there isn't going to be another Indyref" immediately a) talks about independence and b) irks a substantial part of the population who think it's right for Scotland to decide it's own future (be that independence or not) as and when it chooses to.

It's essentially a trap, and the SNP have them hook, line and sinker. Unionists saying "we know what's better for the people of Scotland" paradoxically increases the SNP vote.

Unionists shouting into the echo chamber of unionists doesn't appeal to the soft end of the 50% of the SNP vote.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Oh dear oh dear. Red Card and Baroness-to-be Davidson have at least the political nouse to see that the Scottish people don’t like rank hypocrisy.

Tweets about the exam “fiasco” and associated retweets getting deleted right, left and centre this morning. But mainly on the right.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The daily Poison Dwarf Half Hour Party Political Broadcast on UK-wide BBC TV midday prime time has made all my Scottish friends change channels.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

She’s marmite, that’s for sure. The polls may have swung slightly the other side of the separatist divide in recent weeks - doubtless entirely because of Covid - but Scotland is still, essentially, split right down the middle thanks to 6 years of her agitating and fostering division rather than healing. She has caused a mess that will take a generation to fix and if (a mighty big if) there was another referendum, delivering a Yes vote, then Scotland would become a very unpleasant place to live for years into the future. For all the Nats’ banging on about separatist movements in places like Norway, successful votes to hive off part of a nation state are invariably carried by comfortable, sometimes overwhelming, majorities. A Yes by a whisker is the worst possible outcome, for all involved.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If the Conservatives wanted to up their vote in Scotland, they could do worse than support the Scottish whisky industry.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...?ocid=msedgntp

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

In almost any other democracy, and certainly those multi-party systems, splitting the country “down the middle” and carrying 50% of the vote consistently after 13 years in Government that would reasonably be considered resounding success.

What Brown would have given for that in 2010. I’m sure Boris would settle for that in 2022/7.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I’m not convinced the four years, or more, of circuitous discussion would be worth it. Can only test Paul, Mick, Hugh, Chris and Maggy’s patience levels so many times... :erm:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

This argument belongs in the same family as those that advocate holding an indyref every five years. Constitutional matters can't be constantly up for the changing. That way lies instability. That's why countries with codified constitutions (like the USA) generally also have mechanisms designed to make changing them difficult, requiring a large degree of consensus, and therefore rare. Profoundly altering a constitution on a bare majority is ill advised. And no, before you mention it, our membership of the EU was not nearly on the same level. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

People who don’t want to change constitutions, naturally, want to raise the bar to make it harder for those to do so. Such anti-democratic moves are commonplace against revolutionary change.

Nobody is advocating an independence referendum every 5 years. However that’s the spectre that unionists put forward as if nationalists think that’s something to fear. There’s a sizeable proportion that would gladly hold one every five years until they win. There’s no vote winner from the SNP within such fear-mongering.

I don’t think the vast majority find the political system in Scotland particularly unstable. In fact it’s the most consistent period of government since devolution began. A government that, as the First Minister pointed out to Baroness-to-be Davidson, will gladly go to the polls on its record next year.

Seph is in the thread to the Seph-jfman peace accord applies to not go round in circles over the EU. I’m sure we can all reliably predict what we’d all say next...

A confident and bold Labour Party would shift to independence neutral - it’s for the people of Scotland to decide as and when. That’d pull the rug from under the SNP. However, those are two qualities the party doesn’t have.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Spot on.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They may be a sad shower but they’re polling at over 50%. So how do the consistently incompetent opposition beat them?

It’s a more damning indictment of them that they cannot make inroads after 13 long hard years of claimed incompetence and an exams “fiasco”.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You realise a great many people say the same thing about the Tories? :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

FPTP gives them majority government on a minority of votes though, so I’d object to “great many”.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Really? ;)

Or...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...irst-time-poll

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Proportional voting would give hung Parliaments for yesrs is that what you want?

Remind me why the Liberals and Labour took such a hammering at the last election?

You may think nothing to do with Scottish Politics but it shows what the electorate will do if they don't agree with certain parties policies and actions.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Ah the straw man.

I’m not here (in this thread at least) to discuss the electoral system to the UK Parliament, it is indeed, what is is. With its unelected House of Lords that Baroness-to-be Davidson seeks exile in.

However the statement as given related to the “great many” of the electorate.

When we could, and perhaps even should, reflect on the fact that the SNP Government in Scotland enjoys the highest confidence among the electorate of any elected government in this great land the definition of “great many” leaves the rest trailing in their blaze.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

“Enjoys the confidence of” is a bit of a stretch. “Wheesht fur indy” is not a new concept in Scottish politics. The SNP’s fortunes are aligned with confidence in the Labour Party as an effective opposition to the Tories, and with the level of interest in Scottish independence as a thing.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

But as Hugh's chart shows, support for Labour has been increasing across the UK whilst that for the SNP has not been falling. Maybe it will take longer to take effect in Scotland or maybe the SNP is offering the majority of Scots what they want.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's about sovereignty and not being bullied by around by the UK. ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Sir Keir pressuring Richard Leonard to call it a day. The big question is will James Kelly step up to the plate?

---------- Post added at 11:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 ----------

Sovereignty is a big thing.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Wheeling out an ATM in the sky does not counter the sovereignty argument which has a strong emotional appeal. If the Scottish people have survived the Global Financial Crisis of 2008/9 and the Covid Crisis of 2020/1, they can survive devolution.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The cash argument is a big red herring. If it wasn’t cost beneficial for England to govern Scotland they wouldn’t be so vociferously opposing independence.

You’d have statements on the side of a bus. Scotland goes and we will give £350m a week to the NHS. The population of England will be delighted. Scotland goes off to carve its own path.

Oddly that’s not how the discussion plays out.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm pretty sure you don't believe that simplistic argument even yourself. I'm curious as to why you're even bothering.

Scotland has been a net financial beneficiary of the union for almost its entire existence - starting with England rescuing it from bankruptcy after its upper classes decided to try to get into the colonial business by buying a mosquito infested strip of land in Panama called Darien.

Scotland became a net contributor for a brief spell, in the second half of the 20th century, at the height of the north sea oil boom; the size of that contribution is however somewhat debatable because almost all the oil is in international waters and subject to an international treaty that can't be overridden just by drawing a fantasy offshore border between England and Scotland.

England's interest in Scotland has never been directly financial. It has always been - and still is - a matter of social and political stability. Scotland quickly began to thrive in the union and border raids into England duly became a thing of the past. Scotland benefits when England is forced to govern in Scotland's interests (which at Darien would have meant England preferring Scotland's concerns over its otherwise far more important treaty with Spain). England benefits when Scotland is prosperous, because the consequences of poverty and restlessness don't spill over the border.

Scotland has a massive public sector that it simply can't sustain as an independent country. Of course it could be independent - many far less wealthy countries manage it. But it can't both be independent of the UK and continue UK levels of public spending and welfare provision. That's the truth all too readily forgotten by those who think the issue can be reduced to the competing personalities of Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Poverty and restlessness. You make Scotland sound like a third world country. England are subsidising Scotland to tune of billions is a laughable claim and only ever backed by UK calculations.

You’re assuming of course that Scotland would make the same taxation and public spending choices that the UK does, which it may not. Fiscal constraints reduce the ability of Scotland to make investment choices that suit Scotland and encourage investment in Scotland - not the rest of the UK.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Prior to the creation of the Union, in comparison to the major nations of Europe, Scotland was exactly that - or at least the early 18th century equivalent of it. This is history, not hysteria.

The rest of your post is waffle dressed up in technical language to disguise its lack of substance.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Rubbish. Scotland lacks levers to run an economy in the interest of Scotland.

While I agree there’s some in Scotland who have their social attitudes a couple of hundred years out of date it’s a ridiculous claim to say that Scotland would become a third world country because of living conditions in the 18th century. While there may well be a positive case for the Union I’m sure most forum members would accept that’s patently not one.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Ahem ... strawman. I never said Scotland would become a third world country. I said it would no longer be able to sustain welfare or a public sector of the size the U.K. is able to maintain. The concept of “third world” did not exist at the end of the 17th century but given that Scotland had none of the trappings of rich European nations of the time - principally, colonies, naval power and useful international alliances - and was bankrupted by the Darien scheme, it was impoverished.

“An economy run in the interests of Scotland” is a self-serving nationalist argument. It boils down to the claim that the economy is not run in Scotland’s interests because it is not run in Scotland by Scots. The counter argument is that forcing England to reckon with Scotland as part of the home territory is very much in Scotland’s interest, as is the ability of Scottish MPs to sit in the Westminster parliament and see the entire territory governed as one - even on matters pertaining only to England, because even those issues have a knock-on effect in Scotland.