Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: 33 was it you BNz Operator ;)

;) seems we have our first "bob" here.

http://home.online.no/~anlun/bots.htm

go on , own up, whos running an Eliza here ;)

seems he's better at replying than the Phorm PR guys anyway.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am beginning to wonder if "AMANFROMMARS" has escaped the El Reg comments system...

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nooo... You cannot read my personal court statements, who do you think you are, Phorm??? Geez who do you work for, don't answer I think we know... haaaa, grow up phorm....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is no such thing as a personal court statement, they are public record. Thats why we have teletypers and public galleries.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Mick,

I suspect he just had a little too much to drink this evening.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 03:28 ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 ----------

No way I am going to finish this paper tonight now after our little distraction. Still it is fashionable to be late right? I will finish it tomorrow I promise :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

VM are upping the price of the packages soon (sneeky),so people might use that as a good way easly get out of your contract after 30 days notice without penalty if your so inclined and still within the 12 minimum term.

as pointed out by Conniff elseware
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/help/changes.html
"...
When do the price changes happen?

All of the changes are happening from 1st June 2008. But since you pay for your services a month in advance, you'll see these in your May bill.
..
"

---------- Post added at 06:13 ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 ----------

hmmm
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...edia/comments/
"
OFCOM might use OIX?

By Gnasher
Posted Thursday 10th April 2008 23:13 GMT
"According to that wiki article, it says the BBC, ft.com, The Guardian, iVillage, Universal McCann, Myspace, MGM OMD and Unanimis had initially expressed an interest about Phorm."

Universal McCann says on its website that OFCOM is its customer"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've been wondering the same thing. The ISP and/or Phorm would of course be liable if ANY fraud could be shown to be caused by them. Note that the Virgin terms and conditions seek to limit Virgin's liability for our financial losses to £1 million and to exclude liability for all "indirect" loss caused by them. But Virgin could not rely on these in the case of fraud: they would be liable for the whole amount of any and all frauds that they had a part in. It's not such an unlikely scenario: the surveillance makes it easy to identify high net worth individuals. The interception and the impersonation of 3rd party websites provides a ready-made route for the frauds to be perpetrated.

I am drafting a letter to send to my bank and credit card companies, asking them (in effect) whether they consider I am sharing my security data with a third party by allowing my ISP to intercept and process it, and what effect that has on the bank's liability to compensate me in the event of fraud. This is quite well-developed and I'm happy to share it.

The other thing I am thinking about is asking an insurance broker for a quote for a premium to insure myself against the possibility that the Russian programmers and/or the ISP staff intercept and extract my banking and credit card details. Comments welcome from people who know more about insurance than I do,

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The chances of phorm only using your data to serve ads upon you would be about 50/50 most of the other data will be used in such a way which is shockingly worrying for many people, this coming from a company whos previous existence as 121 media was to infect you and data mine as much information as they could and btw they didnt serve you forward ads then ;).

I guess phormpr had a bit too much to drink last night after finding out his job is coming to an end pretty soon and decided to come and post rubbish on a alt name *cough*.
Keep up the good work alexander dont let they who walk among us distract you from events :).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, please do, we need to get the banks on our side.

A few weeks ago I phoned online support at Natwest to gain assurances that they would protect my online banking from interception. They'd never heard of Phorm - neither the man I spoke to, nor his manager.

So yes, a letter would be good. We need to find out if they are going to take responsibility for interception.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@Alexander:

I've just read your latest draft of paper at http://www.paladine.org.uk/phorm_paper.pdf

You've probably already stated elsewhere, but will you be going to the public meeting on Tuesday? I sincerely hope you will be there to confront Kent and Marc on each and every illegality identified in your paper.

Give 'em hell, and keep up the good work - it's hugely appreciated by me and, I'm sure, many, many others who are concerned about the way privacy could go in this country.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes I will be at the meeting.

Wow this is nice just got up at 1pm, my son is at his grandparents for the weekend so I got to sleep in :) Mind you I never went to bed til 7am this morning hehehe.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:44 ---------- Previous post was at 13:38 ----------

Ooo thread broke 3000 posts!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Holy moly, I dont post or read for a few days because of a being unwell and I come back to find I missed about 700 posts LOL You all been busy. I am glad to see the fight against Phorm is still raging on.

Keep up the good fight Alexander and thank you for all your hard work on this. I cant make the meeting but I am hugely reassured that you will be there to give them hell.

Contrary to what the "astroturfer" said [my guess is it was a PR bod or other Phorm employee trying to distract everyone with something irrelevant or maybe even a disgruntled investor?] this battle is NOT won and we must continue the fight. A great many people have spent many hours posting, writing letters, telling friends, colleagues and acquaintances about the dangers Phorm represents. I thank each and everyone of you.

[ Relatives of Winston Churchill please forgive me for this....]

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight for everyone,
we shall fight on the news sites and blogs
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in our cause, we shall defend our privacy, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight in the media,
we shall fight online,
we shall fight in chat rooms,
we shall fight in courts;
we shall never surrender

Viva la resistance!

---------- Post added at 14:55 ---------- Previous post was at 14:38 ----------

I just submitted the following two questions to the downing street site for Home Secretary Jacqui Smith to hopefully answer:

"BT recently admitted to carrying out secret trials without permission or consent from over 18000 of their customers in 2006 and 2007. Given that they did not have consent from their customers for this trial of technology provided by an ex-spyware company called Phorm, when will the Home Secretary order the police to launch an investigation into these criminally illegal interceptions under Section 1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA), Section 3 of the Computer Misuse Act 1990 and Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

If the Home Secretary will not order such an investigation, is this because she believes large corporations such as BT should be above the law and immune from prosecution?"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sounds familiar ;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You betcha :D I used your question as a template and just slightly reworded it etc. Wanted to dive back in after a few days away. Hopefully lots of others here will do the same and post similar questions. If they get enough questions on it then maybe they will feel compelled to actually address the issue?

Gonna read your updated article in a minute too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Churchill's speech was the opening part of Iron Maiden's 1985 world tour (which many believe was their best ever) - "We shall never surrender!" brings to mind "Aces High" for many people :) *looks for Guitar Hero game*

Think I'll have to write to my bank as well, the staff in the branch don't seem to know anything about Phorm.

201 pages and over 3000 posts here - I doubt whether Phorm and the ISPs ever expected this kind of response.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I never knew that. Learn something new everyday.

Another excellent idea. I may consider doing the same. Although I dont personally do my banking online many others do and its important the issue is raised with the banks for those who DO bank online. Then theres the issue of shopping online too...

I completely agree. I think they planned on launching this with next to no information for customers and no significant time to evaluate their actions. We would have got the PR spin that this was a security tool to benefit us. Little mention or information on the technical aspects and how they would be intercepting all our data.

They have made many mistakes along the way and we should be grateful for that. Its quite scary to think what would have happened if they had actually got their act together and carried out their plan flawlessly.

That said I really do feel we still have a huge battle on our hands. As one of the commenters on the iii site has already mentioned, the real revenue potential for Phorm is in the US market. Even if we hamstring them here in the UK we wont be able to mortally wound them unless we can defeat them in the US too. Naturally if we can defeat them here in the UK then that will be an important step to defeating them in the US too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have my draft letter ready for banks/credit card companies. It's about 2 sides of A4. Is it OK to copy and past it in - I don't have somewhere to host it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you used the advanced reply or preview your reply, there's an option to attach a text file...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know I keep coming back to this but I think its a really important issue. Will someone who goes to the meeting please ask some questions about these "research and debugging logs" that phorm have said they will store for 14 days.

Phorm keeps saying they store no personally identifiable information but they will be storing these logs for up to 14 days and they have not told us what information will be stored in these logs, who will have access to them, precisely where they will be stored or even what "research" may be done with the data.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd still like to know why any ISPs who (are foolhardy enough to) implement Phorm will not be allowed to at least monitor if not proactively check the Phorm hardware. Unless the ISP has access to the Phorm hardware for it to be independently monitored then there's no way it can be remotely considered trustworthy.

I'd also like to know what, if any, mechanisms for independent monitoring exist and if not, why not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am having a meeting with my MP this coming week about another matter (totally unrelated other than it also involves greed). I thought it would be a good opportunity to try to put together a one-page summary of where we are and what we want our legislators to do, and get her reaction in person. I may also be able to get feedback from one or more of the four MPs who were my contemporaries at university. We could then look at spreading the word further in parliament.

Can people review the page at
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/legislators.htm
and provide me with feedback for accuracy, clarity and impact?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In paragraph 6 "It's being spun as a benefit" you mention CA without having referred to them by their full name beforehand. Otherwise, brilliant!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Naaaah 1 page summary can't effectively cover this issue. Print out my paper (which will be finished today) and hand that to him :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks, I think I've attached it: template letter to bank or credit card company

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Proud moment alert!!!

Just thought I would share a photo we got from the photographer today of my son. the photo was taken as part of a Cute Toddler newspaper competition which is running in May. He is just over 2 yrs old and is almost 4 feet tall :) you can see the picture here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

But somehow we have to grab their attention ... and they are busy people, lobbied from all sides with all kinds of causes.

The message is a simple one.
- The law is about to be broken - please make sure that it is enforced.
- The law has been broken - please make sure that those responsible are called to account.

Though don't worry, I'll also pass her a printed copy of your paper!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

amateria,

Can I respectfully request you look at starting to use Open Office instead of Microsoft Office. That way there are no interoperability issues for people wanting to use your template and you can save it as pdf.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excellent - I will be sending one like it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good letter!

A few observations...

...I don't think the servers in China are confirmed for a fact, therefore, I wouldn't include that bit. I remember Phorm refuting that rumour categorically, so until positive evidence to the contrary emerges then it is just speculation.

...I would tar all the ISPs involved with the same brush. VM may be important to you, but this is likely to affect 70% of the bank's online customers which makes it a much greater concern for them. Name and shame them all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You back again? Sheeesh, how many times do I have to point this out to you. The trials were carried out in the UK, by a company Registered and Headquartered -IN THE UK- against people -IN THE UK-.

There is no conflict of jurisdiction, there is no conflict of law.

Now please stop trolling this thread we are trying to engage in intelligent debate not nonsense.

Even other courts in the UK can not set precedent (Other than the High Court). Judges are required to consult case law but their judgement does not have to support it.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes according to Phorm and the current design, your site will not get any changes made what will happen is that if you are a site that is part of OIX, the OIX server will server relevant ads to fill the ad holes on the site based on the viewer, not based on the site context which is how the Google ones currently work.

Now Posting in Safari on a PC. Take that Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am giving very serious thought to doing the same. I tend to mix up my browsing between a mixture of IE7 and Firefox. I may just change permanently to safari for windows and then Phorm can go......

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

About changing to Safari. Why should we have to? I like Firefox (There's an IE add on so there's no need to ever use IE again) and no company is going to dictate to me which browser I use.

Thanks for the EXCELLENT bank letter amateria, word doc is ok for me. No printer at the moment so I'll be using it as a template, make a few small changes and emailing the letter to my banks.

Ali.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok I installed safari and boy is it ugly. Safari for windows doesnt seem to have any official skins or plugins to change its appearance much and thats a shame. Fighting Phorm shouldnt be at the expense of pretty UI.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Whatever my surfing habits are, they are not for anyone else to use or comment on.

If some guy followed me around Tesco, jotting down everything I bought or looked at, then passed it around, I`d be a bit *****d off, & probably end up lamping him one.

It seems there are no limits to how low Branson will stoop, to make a few bob. So much for "Mr Clean". The rich NEVER have enough. They always want more.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had a response (hand addressed, signed etc) from my MP today to the email I sent earlier this month. To be fair to my MP they were on holiday, and their aide emailed me at the time to inform me of this. Very promising (well, thats what I read from it).

I assume I can quote my MP, without names etc.

Part of their response:

"..which I read with considerable sympathy as I do believe there is a privacy and data protection issue here. I would like to help and so will make immediate representations to the appropriate Minister."

Nice result, of course it does depend on the 'appropriate Minister' paying any attention, but nonetheless a nice reply.

WinstonS

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's hoping the 'appropriate minister' is not on the payroll of Phorm/BT/TT/VM ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Cynic, not even Phorm could afford them all surely?
Though maybe MIG flights are more profitable than I thought.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was wondering if it might be possible to produce a Firefox add-on that can emulate the feature in Safari that makes Phorm roll over and die. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm, as far as I know, checks the user agent that is sent from your browser and with Firefox you can pretend to be any browser (or even make one up), just use the add-on 'User Agent Switcher'

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/59

And there's a large import of user agents here-

http://qainsight.net/content/binary/...gs20070304.xml (right click and download)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good evening To all I have spent a couple of days reading this excellent thread and I commend you all on your input,I come here being a victim of the BT exclusion over the closing of the BT/PHORM threads also defending one of your own in his right to post there.Just to say I had a reply from my MP who thought I was talking about the illegal downloading of music etc.Oh well here we go again.good to see positive action being taken.

Tarquin Loombreaker-Smythe

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another reason why we have to be able to present the simple message as well as the important legal and technical detail.

http://www.inphormationdesk.org/legislators.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: Tarquin ;)
-----------
http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj...3_04_08_en.pdf
ARTICLE 29 Data Protection Working Party

Brussels, 09 April 2008

...

The WP considers that personal data registered by search engines must be erased as soon as possible, and after a 6-month period at the latest.

In any event, Directive 2006/24/EC

relating to the storage of traffic data does not apply to search engines; they do not have thus any legal obligation to store information concerning users traffic data, unlike Internet access providers for example.

- The WP recommends that Internet users be also clearly informed of their rights, in accordance with Directive 95/46/EC relating to the protection of personal data :

information on the purposes of the data process, the terms of exercise of their right of access, modification and erasure.

Lastly, Internet users must give their consent to the use of their data for consumer profiling purposes in particular.

...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you for the urls. I already have user agent switcher.

My idea would be to make it impossible for Phorm to know in advance (from the user agent) whether or not a Firefox browser could be intercepted and profiled by them. Hopefully, the add-on wouldn't interfere with the rendering of web pages because they would still be tailored for Firefox. If we could find a way to force Phorm to exclude Firefox then we will have rescued over 20% of their potential victims. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BTW Tarquin, you might want to read this and explain the EU parliament view on his confusion :)
http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...ikes-approach/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now I'm confused. If the french are implementing snooping for illicit file sharers - how does that impact on the PEC?

Also quote about filesharing in the uk from

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7059881.stm

The Internet Service Providers Association has always maintained that it cannot be held responsible for illegal peer-to-peer traffic because it is "merely a conduit" of such material.

"ISPA does not support abuses of copyright and intellectual property theft," said an ISPA spokesman.

He said: "However, ISPs cannot monitor or record the type of information passed over their network. ISPs are no more able to inspect and filter every single packet passing across their network than the Post Office is able to open every envelope."

"ISPs deal with many more packets of data each day than postal services and data protection legislation actually prevents ISPs from looking at the content of the packets sent," he added.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Informed consent to opt-in

Perhaps a question for Tuesday? Will all opt-in pages include the words :-

“As you browse, we’re able to categorize all of your Internet actions, we actually can see the entire Internet.”

It might be worth pointing out that anyone who wants to know more, merely has to google the phrases :-

"we actually can see the entire Internet"
or
"we’re able to categorize all of your Internet actions"

Worryingly, from the search terms returned, this seems to be a quote universally associated with Phorm.

Have Phorm a trademark on these phrases?

Not a very good result for a company barking on about "privacy".:dunce:

------------------------------- addition ----------------------------

Very good points bishbosh & popper :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

mark777, go and post that to Andrew B's question here ;)
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...#comment-28928

it might be interesting to see the answer.

richard's answer to my 'mere conduit' loss is interesting too, so it "has not caused the sky to fall" as he puts it.

but its still a potential part of the being pecked to death..., never underestimate the power of legal pecking ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:tu: done!

And also at :-

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...acetoface.html

where interestingly Simon Davies has just posted a reply to another comment.

I still can't post against the latest BBC blog though. (Server error).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

readers might want have a read of the http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post2809.html
thread, simon Davies posted there about the PIA.

---------- Post added at 07:08 ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 ----------

thanks to Mark H over on the

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/me...ID=17476#17476 thread.

its Interesting in that it was infact in May 2007 then "121Media Inc", so the BT due diligence if it infact took place, was under that companies name, and we all know what that turns up, rootkit anyone, US court battles etc.

---------- Post added at 08:56 ---------- Previous post was at 07:08 ----------

its speading now thanks to the UK ElReg and Uk users efforts perhaps, werth keeping an eye open and helping were you can...

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/9404/CI...acking+Adverts
"
CIPPIC Comments on FTC Proposal on Consumer Tracking Adverts
"
posted by DrewWilson in security // 12 hours 25 minutes ago

The Phorm storm may be taking place far away, but few are aware of a similar storm brewing in the United States. Should advertising have the ability to track online users? The FTC seems skeptical about the proposition.

A recent posting on the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic official website says that they passed along comments to the Federal Trade Commission regarding behavioral tracking advertisements which push targeted advertisements to various users.

The FTC had a proposal (PDF) on the issue saying, among other things:

.....
The FTC then proposed the following principles:



Transparency and consumer control
Reasonable security, and limited data retention, for consumer data
Affirmative express consent for material changes to existing privacy promises
Affirmative express consent to (or prohibition against) using sensitive data for
behavioral advertising
Call for additional information: Using tracking data for purposes other than
behavioral advertising....
"

---------- Post added at 09:41 ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 ----------

Alexander, notice how they finally got around to talking about planting a cookie 2 days ago.

and still mostly missed the current BT graphic about storeing and reading a cookie if you say no in this upcoming BT DPI trial, how come we can find these things but they, we assume are on the ball, mostly miss it?

are we going to have to do a bank charges style CAG on this ISP/Phorm thing and just bring lots of small claims using the online forms or an N1 from the local county court and peck them to death i wonder?.

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pi...to/2008-April/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

RE : FTC

It seems clear from the document that what the FTC were considering is the general use of consumer data for advertising. Google keeping your searches for example.

I would be very interested to hear what they would have to say about a company proposing to routinely wire-tap customers at their point of access.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

An interesting link surfaced in the ukcrypto mailing list...

You can be identified by your browsing habits, even when anonymised.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i think it is two canadian ISPs that are using the NebuAd phorm like DPI system, so if we go looking we will probably find something mentioned there already , dont forget NebuAd have offices here now and are waiting on Phorms outcome before they strike.

ohh, and the wiki i linked in the other day got reverted back so NebuAd are still hard to find any info on there again.

its almost as if they have teams reading and reverting their old company names away, Phorm style but far better at doing it.

perhaps some wiki experts should make the time and make a new NebuAd etc link as i said before.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

An excellent letter Amateria, do you think the best person to send it to would be the Chief Information Officer at my bank who is "responsible for overseeing technology capabilities across the Group" or should I go right to the Chief Executive?

Having the bank's on our side would put another nail into the Phorm coffin.

I have taken on board the points that Dav made in post #3030
I've amended the letter slightly to reflect his input, I hope you don't mind Amateria, as I also feel that letting the banks know that it could affect a huge number of online customers is a better option.

I'll upload the amended letter and I'll link to it shortly.

Keep up the great work folks, I feel that I'm not doing enough but the legal side of things has me stumped. :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On a purely logistical note, you have all sent us a note to say you're coming haven't you? I haven't had a chance to speak to our floor manager this weekend but we do need to have some idea how many people are coming. No conspiracy theories please: this is all about management for the night, such as ensuring that we have enough roving mikes, that the fire and health & safety rules are being followed etc etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hia again 80/20 Thinking.

Any further details yet about a possible webcast?

Ali.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have a question that I would like someone to ask the Phorm people at the meeting on Tuesday, as I can't attend.

I don't think that compiling our list of questions on this forum is a good idea; it gives Phorm an unfair advantage, as they can pre-prepare responses to all of our concerns , while we have no such access to their preparation process in return. (Just look at how often one of their droids is seen lurking here!)

So if I PM them, would anyone who is attending consider asking my question please?

Apologies for the cloak-and-dagger stuff, but I don't think we should give Phorm an unfair advantage...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Depends whether you can trust us to do the right thing. I'm more than happy to accept questions direct to simon@8020thinking.com and put them into the pot.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

I'm meeting a techie tomorrow about this. There are some messy rules about using the SOAS bandwidth though. We'll try and work through the problem.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I do think it very important that the whole event be recorded in some way and posted online in an unedited form so that people can hear everything that is said by the speakers.

How representatives of a company conduct themselves and what language they use reflects on the company.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Do you not think it is ironic that you feel the need to make such a statement?
Do you feel you involvement with Phorm has had a negative impact on your reputation in privacy circles?
After all, while your assessment of the system may be perfectly correct and it may well represent an advance in online privacy, it seems as if Phorm have been caught wrong-footed by the backlash from the general public's natural distrust of anything that tries to pigeon-hole and categorise them in order to make money off their data while giving nothing in return. If it turns out that it complies with the letter of the law, it certainly does not reflect the spirit of it, nor do ethical considerations come into it.
Unfortunately, it looks as if you have been put in a position where you have had to defend and explain yourself due to some over-zealous PR from Phorm and the perception has (wrongly, I think) been that you have been in cahoots with them all along. Why would Phorm pay for and advertise a PIA that they know would condemn their system?
I sympathise with your position (not that that means anything), but it does seem as if you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wow, you're right, I think we have found a weak spot ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You make some very interesting observations. If I can put my Privacy International hat on for a minute, those thoughts are foremost in our minds.

Imagine our position. We're the only truly global privacy watchdog and we deal at any one time with perhaps fifty major privacy issues affecting up to a hundred countries. After twenty years of fighting endless battles we've concluded that the only way through this planet-wide quagmire is to push across the spectrum for transparency and disclosure. That's why the Phorm case is so important.

Right at the moment, for example, we're in combat with an increasingly secret and unaccountable EU regime, an almost totally unaccountable and invisible US regime and an increasingly opaque Westminster regime. There are more covert agreements between governments than you could ever imagine, backed by IT deals that go to the heart of personal privacy at the deepest levels. Commercial secrecy has crippled any hope of public input.

After the Phorm process you now know the nature and extent of your target. That's a healthy start. For us, as privacy advocates, the real challenge is achieving that level of disclosure across the board - the banks, governments, security agencies, border services, data miners and identity providers.

What we learn through the Phorm process will be important to addressing that larger picture.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For an international watchdog sorry to say but how can you say that phorm is legal you in your own mind must know it isnt btw dont some of your guys have shares in phorm and some ex staff now working for them, somehow i dont think your actually non biased at least some of your members arent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Amen! :clap:

Phorm is just a thin edge of a VERY large wedge.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oooops. Careful about straying into black helicopter terrain. My views about the legality under the DPA are clearly stated elsewhere. We aren't in a position to judge the RIPA legality. As for your latter assertions, pleeeeeease. I think you just confused BT with PI. I doubt any of us could afford to buy shares in anything, even if we inclined to do so.

But, just for the record: I affirm that no staff member or director of Privacy International, past or present, has either worked for Phorm or is now working for Phorm or has any financial interest whatever in Phorm. We as 80/20 Thinking are contracted as a third party to provide an independent assessment of Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To avoid any confusion, Simon, could you elaborate on the exact relationship between PI and 80/20? I think I read recently (think it was in the NY Times) that 80/20 was the commercial arm of PI. Is that the case, or are the two organisations independant with some people (particularly yourself) involved with both? Again, for the record, your asertion specifically talks about staff members of PI. Can you confirm that the same applies to staff members of 80/20? (I'm sure it does, but with so many conspiracy theories....)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not a conspiracy theorist. However, As Richard Clayton has said, Phorm could become part of the CNI. As I've pointed out a couple of times now, who partly runs the CNI? The same people that could benefit most from the Phorm technology.

MI5.

Please don't laugh, I'm being deadly serious here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify this. In the legal sense, PI and 80/20 are entirely separate entities. Two of 80/20's staff also work for PI, but one key difference is that there's almost no-one in common between the advisory boards of the two organisations. And although I founded PI, I am not on the PI board, but I am on the board of 80/20.

So, 80/20 isn't the commercial wing of PI. In fact even the money we give away to campaigners won't go to PI. The commonality between the two organisations is Gus Hosein and I.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have to disagree here Simon, Phorm are far from transparent. They don't answer any question directed at them (they just get the PR drones to go around pasting the same mindless BS on forums and blogs all over the web). As for legality pffft don't even get me started.

I used Privacy International data for years in my academic pursuits I have always seen them as a vanguard; but whether you like to admit it or not Simon, your association with Phorm through 80/20 Thinking is seriously damaging the image and reputation of Privacy International.

I defended you in several places when your draft PIA was published but I no longer can. The work you have done over the past 20 years is becoming rapidly undone by your association and seemingly supportive relationship with Phorm. People used to hear the name Simon Davies and think Privacy International, now they don't think that, they don't even think 80/20 Thinking; they think Phorm supporter.

Perhaps your PIA should take a look at the fact that despite the IC saying their system is ok under DPA, in fact it isn't. Given the current way in which the technology works as reported by Dr Richard Clayton (and verified by Phorm) requires operations to be carried out on the data by the Layer 7 technology in order to determine whether or not the consent cookie exists; then DPA is being breached and the IC can sing from the hilltops that it isn't for all I care, he is WRONG.

Perhaps your PIA should also pay closer attention to RIPA. Privacy of communications as you very well know, is a HUMAN RIGHT and therefore can never be, I repeat -never- be swept away with implied consent. All consent to wave the right to privacy -must- be explicit; so irrespective of the PR spin Kent and his team are coming out with to try and say they can get away with intercepting web requests based on implied consent from web site owners and a change in terms and conditions for browsers; they -are- breaking the law under RIPA. And just to add a bit of icing to the cake, changing the terms and conditions for BT/VM/TT customers in an attempt to circumvent the law WILL NOT WORK. Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003 s27 makes it very clear that any terms or modification of terms would be void.

You are no longer one of my idols Simon, you are one of my enemies. This is a conflict, a war to protect our fundamental rights and you have defected to the other side. I am deeply disappointed in you and I am sure I am not the only one.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The commonality between the two organisations is Gus Hosein and you and a fat contract to provide an independent assessment for Phorm. Doesn't that look odd even to you when written in black and white? :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen.

I've been following this issue and in particular, this thread, for some weeks now. I've not yet responded to anything before ingesting all of the posts and links to articles so that I can be as knowledgeable as possible before making comments.

I'd just like to say Hi all and also say that well done to the many of you providing information and in particular the sterling and voluntary work done by Alexander on this issue.

I will probably touch more on past postings in further comments but whilst Simon is here I'd like to take the opportunity to address some points with him.

Hi Simon,

Thanks for taking the time to post and answer peoples queries.

you posted recently with your PI hat on. This is where I'm confused. I understand the good work that PI does on behalf of privacy issues and applaud the work. I too am aware of the many disturbing privacy issues we have in the UK on a state level. having worked in many Ministry of Defence installations, BNFL ( including armoury installations on BNFL vessels for the MOD ) and the Bank of England and have learned a few things I'd rather have not known about over the years yet am bound by the Official Secrets act 1989 specifically under Security and intelligence and also Defence. Plus in the private sector, Non disclosure contracts.

I do wonder what 'hat' you will be wearing at the meeting. What exactly is the position of 80/20 thinking with Phorm. You say you ar to provide assessment but I fail to see how you are working as anything other than a technically able public relations outfit. Are you retained by Phorm or are you indeed working independently of that body?

It seems that Phorm have dropped the tactic of allowing the disastrous PR firms to comment further on their technology ( and in fairness, they should as the people spinning the usual and standard responses were only hurting the brand ) due to them not being able to engage in proper informed debate with a public who is a little more tech savvy than they might have expected.
If this is the case are you not now simply taking on that PR role with a better informed view but still with the objective of trying to make the technology acceptable to the public?

Some time ago I mailed Phorm to ask them, in the light of their reaffirmed statements of openness and transparency, to ask them for a complete list of their OIX partners so that we can be aware of who exactly will be operating in conjunction with OIX on their network traffic so that we might avoid them if we wished. As yet I've had no reply. Will it be possible to have this information disclosed in full at the meeting?

I'd love to trust you and am usually quite prosaic in such matters but I am at a loss to see, from a business standpoint how you can be trusted to do anything which might harm your client's product if indeed they are your paymasters.

I'm sure there is more but it would be impolite to go on.
Will there be sandwiches at the meeting? ;)

Kindest Regards

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome to the thread Panasonic and a very good first post I should add.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander. You should know that in life you have to make choices that others don't necessarily approve. I've pioneered almost every privacy issue of modern times, and your generous remarks reflect that. But do I cease exploring new avenues because some people disagree? Sometimes, but by and large I have to use all my powers of instinct and reflection to figure out where to place my scarce energies and resources. All I ask you to do is wait until the final PIA is published before you rush to judgment.

As for what people think about me or my reputation. Well, I remember from 15 years ago being the first serious campaigner against CCTV and much the same was said about me. Same when I started the fight against the ID card or - in the US - when we launched our action against US VISIT.

Hate me all you want, but also remember that it was only two weeks ago that my actions stopped fingerprinting at Heathrow. And tomorrow there'll be an equally important strike in another area. Just because my approach to issues does not always resonate with yours should not lead you to outright condemnation.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Life can be cruel Simon. Phorm are paying you and you will, I'm sure, cry all the way to the bank.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Might I just add...

I'm not at all a privacy nutjob. I know where some things are just not possible in this day and age.
I'm not fond of CCTV because it works outside of the areas it was brought to protect us in. I would not have it removed though, just better policed.

I would welcome biometric identity cards for all citizens within certain parameters and correctly manage it could only help protect our society from people not entirely intent on helping our society progress.

I am totally against anyone forcing advertising on me. This should be as much of a choice as I am able to make. I'm certainly not happy to have my browsing habits, however saintly, to be profiled purely for the monetary gain of a third party and even my ISP whom I already pay plenty of money to for an access point to the internet.

Craig

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have to agree with Simon here - let's wait to see the final PIA before condeming.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I totally agree here. Yet it does no harm to try and get some issues clarified whilst the gentleman is online and prepared to talk.

I'm a businessman. I'd not condemn him anyway if he is working on behalf of Phorm. Everyone has to make a living. I'd just be a little disappointed that he did not feel morally obligated to remain neutral.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Evidence indeed that PR spin works.

The PIA is a document bought by Phorm; it cannot be perceived as a document that will validate anything.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't hate you Simon, I would like to think I don't hate anyone, I am a better human being than that. Your work (and others) with regards to privacy inspired me to leave a 15 year career in IT with very lucrative remuneration and return to University in order to carry your flag. All my work has revolved around privacy and technology issues.

For years as a child I was told I was one of the brightest people the country had to offer, I was shipped off to a government boarding school for precisely this reason. Now as an adult, I am known to be a pain in the ass with my relentless attempts to educate people on issues of privacy and my attempts to try and cure the country of this disease of apathy we suffer from to prevent the situation going from bad to worse.

With regards your final PIA, I can't really see it making any difference as the draft ignores the "operations" being carried out on the traffic data with regards the DPA.

I even emailed you several weeks ago asking for your advice on how I could focus my studies with a goal to working with groups like Liberty, PI, ORG etc., yet to date you have not replied. I would have hoped that given your previous 20 years work on these issues you would welcome interest from fresh blood and do everything you can to try and encourage and mentor people like myself to carry on the sterling work you have done.

But irrespective of all the good, as Panasonic stated in his post above, you now seem to be just a new addition to the PR from Phorm. Whether it is true or not, that is how it looks.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I didn't say 'accept the PIA in advance'. I said let's wait and see what it says before making a judgement. If anything, the 'evidence that PR spin works' is that you seem to have accepted Phorm's 'spin' that the initial PIA was fully supportive of Phorm's POV.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have the utmost respect for both Alexander and Simon.

Now is not the time to appear to be fractious in the eyes the enemy - yes, I know that there may appear to be a conflict of interest regarding 80/20 and PI with respect to Phorm, but I also acknowledge Simon's contribution to The Greater Good over the years, and I certainly appreciate Alexander's tireless efforts - without his focus on this issue, I doubt we would have been so coherent as a protest group.

Like it or not, pragmatism is far more productive than idealism, and it is results that we need here. At the risk of sounding like a political dilettante, engagement is better than indignant isolation, so even though we may detest what they stand for, we need to debate with Phorm and the ISPs and persuade everyone in this country why what they want to do is wrong.

I wait to be proved wrong...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How so? I regard the PIA in any guise to be completely irrelevant. But let's not squabble, it gets in the way of the purpose.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Whether you consider it irrelevant or not, the PIA is a necessary part of the process as defined by the ICO. Better that we have some input and influence over it's content than boycott it and allow Phorm to dictate it's tone 100%.
We live in a bureaucratic society, and if you want to get something done, you either play the game or overthrow the government. Sulking silently just doesn't cut it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you for making that statement Simon. Is the same true of the staff of 80/20 Thinking as well? I'm just trying to get as clear a picture as I can here.

Perception can be a difficult issue to handle sometimes. Often it's caused by behaviours (Phorm PR comes to mind as an excellent example), other times it is caused by confusion over who is connected with which organisation. That, as we know can happen through *ahem* "overzealous" PR or unclear reporting, or even comments made in an online forum.

The companies I've worked for have never gone out and funded any assessments, discovery reports, etc without first being pretty confident of what they're going to get as the end product (ie: no nasty surprises or critical content in the final document).

With that in mind, what exactly is Phorm's involvement with the PIA? Who generated the terms of reference? Will 80/20 Thinking be publishing the final PIA to everyone at the same time or do Phorm get it first so their PR can spin it?

I prefer to read the PIA for myself rather than assume it's going to be a pro-Phorm whitewash. That's not saying I've been brainwashed by Phorm's PR - anyone looking through this thread can see I've berated Phorm's PR every chance I've had. Those who know me will tell you I don't brainwash.

Being clear on the reasons, companies, people and circumstances behind the PIA will help me to judge the PIA when it is published.

I'm with lucevans. Nothing has changed about what we are working for here. Prejudging something before it has been completed isn't my way of analysing things. Saying "It will be this or that so I'll have nothing to do with it" achieves nothing either.

Let's positively contribute to the PIA. That doesn't mean we can't be passionate about it but we should be professional and positive. We should count ourselves lucky we've got two people here with knowledge, experience, presence and reputation to highlight this issue.

Engage with the process, read the finished PIA then judge. That's what I'll be doing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apologies, Simon. It seems I've opened up a real can of worms here. Not my intention at all. We need true privacy advocates like PI and your good self, but having two hats with one of them saying, "Will approve for cash" doesn't do you any favours.
Yes, you need to make a living, but the thing we need to realise is that the nature of your PI work doesn't put food on the table and that maybe we should support the actions of groups such as PI more. After all, it's you fighting "the man", not us. You have the experience, contacts and reputation to get things done far better than most of us could. Maybe it's time the people you are representing via PI contributed more than just giving a well meaning, "Thank you." In that way, you wouldn't have to compromise your position by accepting payment from people who expect you to sign off on their system. It smacks of "oldest profession" connotations.

Anyway, this is all detracting from the main issue of stopping Phorm dead in their tracks and is probably best saved for another day.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think you'll find that it is not a legal requirement to undertake a PIA and is not a 'necessary' part of the process but an 'advisable' one. For example, you might use it to illustrate 'openness'. If you feel a process that is being bought by 'the other side' to be of value, fair enough. I don't.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree with the Captain here. Let us be as informed as we possibly can be at all times, let us debate but not allow blind passion to render our opinions invalid due to being seen as fanatical conspiracy theorists.
let us all continue to collect and report as much information as we can and let us then have those who are academically best able to collect that data and make it useful to our side of the debate and have the people who are best able to put forward that debate in a clear and level-headed manner take on that side of things. Be that they may or may not be the same people.

Thanks for the welcome Alexander.

I read your current draft of the paper you are producing and I am greatly impressed. It's good that we have someone with as much knowledge as yourself in the area who is prepared to put in the time for such things.
The paper has highlighted many things for me but not least that if we have a home office that can wash its hands of this issue and let it carry on regardless in light of such evidence then we clearly have a major problem with the UK which does not just sit with the incumbent government but UK law itself.

I understand that you will be attending the meeting? I have work that will prevent me from attending (more security this time involving airports and cargo ) but when I heard you might not go I was seriously considering trying to arrange someone to take you.



I'll look forward to more.

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is a tactic used by most companies - keep the remit of the report tight to avoid the unwanted. Phorm though have an arrogance the likes of which you don't see too often, so what is exactly the remit for this report? Have they kept their remit tight? And also is this a fixed fee regardless?

I await the report but carry on the fight regardless.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're right; it's not a legal requirement, but it is an integral part of the "due process" and so Phorm were always going to undertake a PIA so that they could claim to have conducted "all due diligence". That being the case, I would much prefer the PIA to be undertaken by an organisation/individual with links to successful privacy campaigning than by a fly-by-night outfit I'd never heard of. I think the chances of Phorm getting the report 100% their way is much reduced that way, don't you? [again: pragmatism, not idealism]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes I will be at meeting traffic permitting. I have a lecture until 1pm during which I have to give a presentation on the Human Rights Abuses at Guantanamo Bay, so I can't miss it; which means I will only have approx 5 hours to get there from Lancaster. I just hope I make it in time.

As for my paper, I did promise to finish it yesterday and I am disappointed with myself for having not done so. But, I decided I needed to spend some quality time with my family this weekend and to be honest I was feeling a little burnt out, so I took some time away from the keyboard. It is hard not to get emotional over such issues and whereas I agree emotions should not be permitted to get out of control, it is important that we make people emotional in order to finally make them stop and think about what these issues mean with regards to their own and their families' futures.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wish you luck with that then Alexander.
I expect you will make it.
I once made it from Manchester to Hammersmith in 2 hours 11 minute on a Friday evening for an extremely important meeting. It was with a lady though, so you take your time ;)


I do so wish that Simon had answered my questions before going. He prompted me to finally register.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's going to be a close run thing. I have to say that I don't think you'll get there for the start. Good luck though. If anyone should be there, it should be you.

EDIT: Crikey Pasanonic! That's going some.
I was talking about safe and legal speed limits. Although I did once make it from Portsmouth to Sheffield in 3hrs.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have never heard of 80/20 Thinking, a Company that has existed for only just over 3 months and, as such, they have no record of successful privacy campaigning. What do you know about them apart from what they have told you?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

She was a very lovely lady who I later married ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know that that it was established by a founder and a senior research fellow of Privacy International, an organisation with a considerable body of work, which I have been following since 1997.
Unless these individuals have suddenly had a change of heart and gone over to the "dark side" I am reasonably confident that I understand their values and what they stand for.

Yourself?

---------- Post added at 16:34 ---------- Previous post was at 16:32 ----------

Awwwww :luv: