Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Know what you mean about Johnson but I think it would count against him in the election. And people are not necessarily voting positively for Labour, they're voting against Johnson's Conservative Party.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The list of things you can't do slipped down the back of the No.10 filing cabinet and hasn't been seen for 12 years :shocked:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

:D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

No back of the bicycle shed stuff in your history, then! :D

---------- Post added at 16:45 ---------- Previous post was at 16:43 ----------

Yes, Labour voters wouldn’t like it one bit. Still, all’s fair in love and war.

---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:45 ----------

Maybe that’s why, when all’s said and done, he’s a winner. That’s why Labour and the other opposition parties want nothing more than to see him gone.

Trouble is, he’s not obliging.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It is appropriate that the moral bankruptcy of the Tory Party is being played out by its parliamentary members in real time. At least they are honest to their values :)

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I went to an all boys school but guess what Nadine, if they're had been it would have been consensual, it seems there is nothing you won't excuse or try to deflect away from these people, very odd and very sad in equal measure

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

When all’s said and done, he's now a loser.

That’s why many in Labour and the other opposition parties want nothing more than to see him continue in power, a wounded (party) animal who will gift them the election in the way that Corbyn gifted Johnson the last election.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

You are so lacking in a sense of humour! Listen to yourself!

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Probably what Pincher said as pinched blokes bums.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Oh you were trying to be funny, didn't realise, you should speak to GB news, you'd fit right in there Nadine

---------- Post added at 19:27 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

It's more than a few rotten apples but I'd say you're right and it does appal people, more so if you'd actually voted for them

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Whataboutary alert.

Labour are so much more virtuous.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

When Labour have been power for 12 years and have trashed the place then, and only then, can you make the comparison :) You really have a very low standard on who can run the country.

Just to be clear, I am no fan of the current Labour Party so I am not sure what your point is here?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Not me, but you hit the bullseye.

Those that currently run the country and those that want to, are of a very low standard.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

1997 - 2010?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

By that comparison Labour win.

We're in a lot worse state with a public debt of £2.45 trillion, it was £1 trillion in 2010 ( and thats after the pointless decade of austerity). . Hyper inflation, a law breaking PM, his MPs regularly in the courts, NHS and public services falling apart, and a cost of living crisis.

Let me guess, it's all somebody else's fault.....

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

You’re nothing but a cesspit of your own misery Mr K, you’re also selective with relevant bits of information….

There have been 7 Labour MPs handed jail sentences in just 10 years. So enough of the squeaky clean image you are trying to portray Labour as.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-sleaze-vn/amp

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The public debt was under control until the pandemic hit. Are you blaming the government for Covid now? Labour would have had far longer lockdowns and that would have cost another fortune on top. That’s assuming there was enough in the kitty to make furlough payments and other financial assistance to people. Austerity was not ‘unnecessary’. We had to sort out the imbalance in the economy before we sunk under the weight of debt Labour left us in 2010.

Inflation at its current level is due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Is that our government’s fault?

The NHS was in a mess when the last Labour government was in power, and it’s been made worse by the unsustainable immigration that came about as the result of free movement while in the EU and Tony Blair’s multi-cultural drive. The aging population hasn’t helped either.

Are you one of these people who blames everything that goes wrong in your house on your wife? When things go wrong, you really can’t keep blaming this on the same person or your favourite figures of hate, just because you find them easy targets.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Covid hasn't been happening for 12 years. National debt has increased EVERY year since 2010.
https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/u..._debt_analysis

Compared to other G7 countries we're doing worse.
https://www.ft.com/content/4ac7e454-...f-fb54404d45a0

We've a higher inflation rate than any EU country.
https://www.nationalworld.com/news/u...france-3571914

The Govt had an pandemic exercise a few years ago so we would be prepared. They chose to ignore the recommendations.

The NHS has a staffing crisis and has been underfunded for over a decade. Staff turnover is horrendous.

Are you one of these people who feel the Govt can never be held responsible for anything ? If they aren't responsible for anything whats the point of them ?

Quite frankly it's hard to see how Labour could do any worse. (and I've never voted for them).

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

:LOL:

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

I wonder what happened then.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

tbf to OLD BOY, it had been fairly steady as a % of GDP until COVID hit.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gover...t/december2021

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...3&d=1656781168

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

However his tacit implication that 85% debt to GDP is managable but 100% out of control is plucked from thin air. There was no plan to pay the 85% off, merely to pass it onto future generations.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Still doesn't make great reading does it, for a party that used to pride itself on its economic competence. Wonder what Maggie would have thought?

---------- Post added at 18:09 ---------- Previous post was at 18:05 ----------

This is what the public think:-
Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 41% (+2)
CON: 30% (-3)
LDEM: 15% (+3)
GRN: 6% (+1)

via
@IpsosUK
, 22 - 29 Jun
Chgs. w/ May

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Lots of rumours on Twitter Starmer has been fined. Labour denying so far. The decision is meant to be this week.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

More from that survey

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/conserva...een-fit-govern

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1656783653

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Oh, do come off it, Mr K, do you take us for fools? Or maybe you just don’t understand the detail behind the facts.

Yes, of course our debt was still increasing post 2010. Why? Because our expenditure far exceeded our income, and so every year we had to correct that imbalance so that the debt would stop increasing year on year. We finally brought the imbalance in the economy so that the growing debt could finally be controlled, but then the pandemic changed everything. You are looking at results without considering what caused them.

When we look at the mess the Labour government left us in 2010, I don’t blame them for the financial crash, because it was not our government’s fault. What I blame them for is their spendthrift attitude which left us devoid of balances. Cause and effect.

As far as the pandemic exercise is concerned, did you seriously expect our scarce resources during austerity to be squandered on setting even more money aside at that stage for something that might not have happened for decades? Even Mr Hindsight wouldn’t have foreseen this pandemic coming so soon, even in retrospect!

As I said in an earlier post, the NHS was in crisis when Labour were in power. Unfortunately, the pandemic has made things so much worse.

Boris Johnson’s government may not be perfect, and there are clearly behavioural problems that need sorting out, but this government has got the big decisions right.

How did Kier Starmer do when you review what he was urging this government to do? For example, just how long would our lockdown have lasted? He would have been too petrified to lift the restrictions, and we’d probably still have them in place now if it was down to him.

---------- Post added at 19:37 ---------- Previous post was at 19:31 ----------

That’s what inflation is for, jfman!

My point has nothing to do with your 100% / 85% comparison. It is about re-balancing the economy. The disparity between our expenditure and income levels had to be equalised in order to pay off the debt.

That’s why the government referred to the problem as the deficit.

But of course as the revered economist on this forum, you knew that. :D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I know it's absolute rubbish, OB.

Pray, tell where does the deficit go and when do we ever pay off even the manageable 86% of the national debt?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Oh I don’t know, lying about WMD taking us in to an illegitimate war in the Middle East, causing many unnecessary deaths and bloodshed.

The time they were in power prior to that, winter of discontent, refuse and dead bodies piling up on street, because unions were crippling the country with strikes.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The deficit has been reduced to manageable proportions.

As for the debt, you were the one explaining how Corbyn's expenditure proposals could be managed not that long ago!

I won't quote you exactly, to avoid embarrassment!

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Oh be my guest, I stand by my previous posts rather than cower away from them like you, OB. If you want to back my statements on macroeconomic policy, you are most welcome!

So is the post-Covid deficit now manageable as implied in your post? If so, I'd be grateful if you could explain what has changed in the last six hours.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Seriously?

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...6&d=1656838131

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Sorry, I should have said 'had been reduced'. Obviously, the pandemic and Brexit have conspired to put the deficit up again. But that would have happened whichever government was in control at the time.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Pretty sure if another Party had been in power, Brexit wouldn’t have contributed to the deficit… ;)

Good of you to point out that Brexit contributed to the rise in the deficit, though… :D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

student who filmed Beergate video has told Durham Police they will testify in court and claims event was 'entirely social'


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ify-court.html



Pressure is mounting on Sir Keir Starmer over Beergate as Durham police have asked a witness if they are prepared to give evidence in court.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Wonder if he'll be as reputable as the bunch his father works for?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...o-sink-starmer

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

He'll be under oath that is usually sufficient in our court system.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

From the former Sun editor turned PR consultant.
https://twitter.com/davidyelland/sta...21054559293441

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Which, by legal definition & on what appears on the surface, a confirmation that Durham Police are intending to fine Starmer (& Rayner).

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Is it unusual to ask witnesses if they would be prepared to testify in a court of law? Not been in that position myself but seems a sensible procedure to have.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It’s routine question asked. To testify in court, they’d be under oath, so if they’re found to be lying or give a false statement, that person would then be charged for perverting the course of justice or perjury.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/1-2/6

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I wonder how many people are currently in prison despite swearing an oath and pleading not guilty? They must be particularly upset about it if being under oath equals telling the truth. They call it perjury.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

In this particular case though, the witness has video evidence to back up his claim. He’s safe.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The funniest part of that is the bit that states He must have bloody good eyesight, as the Durham Miners Hall is set back over 75 metres from the road - this was pointed out to me by a few ex-colleagues who now work at Durham University...

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I wonder if that bit will be repeated under oath?

---------- Post added at 17:24 ---------- Previous post was at 17:21 ----------

Many thanks.

I guess if it's a routine question then we shouldn't attach too much weight to it.

I suspect we'll hear something on the police's decision next week. Pure guess!

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I think you are a bit confused, how many witnesses plead guilty/not guilty to a crime?

Someone accused of a crime who appears in court may not wish to testify and would not have to take an oath.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I think Ivo has misinterpreted what the Police may have said to him - I discussed this yesterday with our friend (who is a Regional Crown Prosecutor with the CPS), and they thinks it’s likely that the local Police (if/when Durham Police took a statement from him) would have informed him that if it goes to Court, he may be called as a witness.

They also pointed out that the decision whether or not to prosecute would rest with the CPS, not the Police, and the CPS would contact any witnesses if a prosecution was happening.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Shocked and surprised a story in there is lacking in facts, how do they get away with this shoddiness, guess it's because it's what people want to hear

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Come off it Hugh. There is that little bit of technology on a camera called zoom. :dunce:

The video is as clear as rain, that’s Starmer holding a beer, with other people in situ. It’s a social event, Starmer should be being fined and fall on his sword.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

We always knew, and it was always made clear, that there would be transitional issues. It’s not been helped by obstructive EU behaviour.

Yes, Labour would probably ignored the people’s choice. Shame on them.

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

I’ve always said that Starmer’s party breach was more serious than Boris’s cake ambush. The event was held AFTER, not DURING the working day.

His penalty should be more punitive than Boris’s, but I say that without malice.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

A zoom lens that can change the direction the photo is taken from?

The photos were taken directly from in front of the window; the gates at the bottom of the driveway are at (at least) a 45 degree angle to the windows…

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...0&d=1656875092

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...9&d=1656875092

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The guy went snooping, presumably he was tipped off that the Labour Party was there.

I'm not sure whether he was close enough to the action to ascertain it was a social event and not a work event unless he could identify non-Labour workers there.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

lmfao....:D:D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Not confused one bit, I was commenting on someone being reliable if they take an oath in court. Many people plead not guilty, go on to give evidence (swear an oath) then proceed to tell the court a load of lies and end up being found guilty.

Also, someone who says they are willing to stand up in court and testify that the whole event was social gathering when they weren't there for the whole event (quick video through the window from outside) is pretty much admitting they're more than happy commit purgury.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Maybe he was alerted by the noise of the revellers.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Whether Sir Keir is fined or not, he's had the integrity to offer to resign. Unlike our PM who has been found guilty, fined and doesn't give a toss what the plebs think.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

:clap::clap::clap:

I also positively welcome the chance of Starmer being fined as it would add a little more pressure on our worst PM I've known (Johnson) to resign.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

More shit you speak. He has zero Integrity. The Starmer clown back in Jan called on Boris to resign while being investigated, no fine was yet issued, now Starmer is under his own criminal investigation, why hasn’t he took his own advice and resigned?

He’s a pathetic snivelling hypocrite, that’s why.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

That can be explained away by another imaginary friend ;)

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Obviously, if Starmer is fined he should resign (and looks like he will) but no one should take any lectures from supporters of Boris Johnson about this. We should hold politicians to a higher standard than they do for their mate Boris.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:16 ----------

Well if he resigns then that's more integrity than Boris Johnson.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

So what?

It doesn’t remove the fact Starmer is clearly at a social event. :rolleyes:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Well, we’ve been on holiday twice this year with this "imaginary" friend and their partner, and we’re off to Dubrovnik next Sunday for a week with them.

You really shouldn’t judge everyone else by your standards… ;)

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Rubbish. You don’t tell someone to resign while being investigated, then don’t do it yourself when also coming under investigation.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If he was so sure of his innocence he should have resigned as the party is bigger than one person and it would have set him apart from Boris if he didn't get his collar felt. At the very least he should have steeped aside pending the outcome.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Enough. This isn’t the papa and Hugh hour.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I was replying to your statement that the photos could have been taken with a zoom lens from the gate..

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Maybe but if he resigns when he is fined that's a step more than Johnson ever did.

---------- Post added at 21:25 ---------- Previous post was at 21:24 ----------

Well if he is so sure of his innocence he wouldn't resign because he is thinking he won't be fined?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If……..he is fined he has ZERO integrity.

Again, ……if……….he’s right there.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------

Or a mug, you decide.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

How would that compare to Johnson being fined and not resigning?

Even for a Johnson defender, you must eventually accept that resigning once given an FPN has more integrity than remaining in position after receiving one.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

He advocated for laws that saw people criminalised. He broke those laws he should go. The only mugs here would be the people who defend a situation where they have to obey laws that those who opposed them broke.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Why would anyone in their right mind quit their job over a fpn.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If you were the one that made the rules you might. It would make you a hypocrite.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

In my mind, that's the wrong question.

The question to me should be: Why should anyone keep their job after breaking the law they made? They're either a law-breaker or incompetent. Both rule you out as good PM material.

And if you're a rule-breaker who supported the PM's lock-down legislation, you would be hypocritical if you didn't take your own advice. Mick has been right to point out that Starmer asked Johnson to step down following the investigation but has not taken that advice himself following the investigation into Beergate.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Some interesting stories going around about Beer Gate tonight.

starmer and the other revellers have all received FPNs and appealed them. They've also slapped an injunction on the MSM to stop them reporting on the story……:erm:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Boris was fined for being in possession of a birthday cake.

The Boris haters are stretching it to the max to get us to believe he should resign over this.

He won’t, and nor should he.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

That story fails to make sense to me as my understanding is you can't appeal a fixed penalty notice.

If you do not agree that you are guilty of the offence you can request a Court hearing.

There's a public interest here so I can't see the courts issuing a reporting ban.

Is there a good link to this story? It just doesn't seem to add up.

---------- Post added at 00:02 ---------- Previous post was at 00:00 ----------

He wasn't fined for being in possession of a birthday cake, Old Boy. it was the presence of non-work colleagues that made this event a non-work gathering which therefore breached Johnson's own rules.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Technically, they’re not criminals once fine is paid, their potential criminality is waived. You cannot be labelled a criminal, if you ain’t got a criminal record.

But let’s get some reality check here. They were Stupid, mundane laws, he received a birthday cake, he’s not Jack the flaming Ripper. :rolleyes:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Johnson is, as Johnson is.

I don’t recall him promoting himself as virtuous.

I personally think the whole thing is irreverent given the other issues we are currently having to deal with but if he gets a FPN, Starmer finds himself in a position of his own design.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

What, two people who were in regular contact with the PM all the time - his wife and a designer advising on a government property (no 10 itself?). Even BJ's own advisors did not believe that broke the rules.

But I'm not surprised you are attempting to hype this up out of all proportion to the 'offence'. You may say he broke his own rules. Others may claim tbat he didn't and the police misjudged the situation, not for the first time. The Met has form for getting things wrong. They are now in special measures.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I'm not hyping anything, I'm correcting your misinformation that he was fined for receiving a cake. You may not agree with his fine (he accepted it though) but it was not given for receiving cake.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

You’re not correcting anything. Yes he was, the specific incident in which he received a cake was the reason he was fined by the MET, stop telling others are wrong, when you clearly are.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I absolutely agree that the specific gathering he was fined at was the one he received a cake.

However, the FPN was not for receiving a cake but for the gathering being deemed unlawful due to non-work people being present.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I just wish this could all be left alone. Both were likely unwise but a FPN really isn't a resigning matter.
And then the press calling these incidents ????gate. Firstly very few modern "gates" are anywhere close to Watergate and I wonder how many people today really understand or remember what Watergate was about.
Personally I'd like to see the spiteful little weasels who "leak" all this information identified and questioned on their motives. In neither case does it seem to be much in the way of protecting the public from a major risk.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Apparently, because we know that he commonly breaks the rules, it’s acceptable that he breaks the rules…

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

For balance - It’s not just Boris though, is it Hugh?

https://www.ft.com/content/2ac704a6-...4-3db4cf987111

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Nothing Boris hasn't done more than once, so looks like Boris is still higher up the wrong doing league table than Keir.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47854338

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The 'they're all as bad as each other' thing is why it's important Starmer goes if he is fined. We need a draw a line rather than just excuse things because other politicians did it. Boris Johnson needs to be an aberration and not the new baseline by which to judge others

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

What’s this?

A competition to see whose more badder?

A rule breaker is a rule breaker.

Sweet Jeez, there me thinking I’d left the school playground. This is really pathetic. :rolleyes:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Pretty sure repeat offenders are treated more severely in most cases…

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If you an expert in criminology, enlighten me, if not. Not interested in your wild subversions.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I'm sure it's worth a point or two yes, but how many points would you give for writing both a leave and remain speech to help hedge your bets with public opinion?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

What is taking Durham police so long? It's one event. Even the Met police didn't take this long per party.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Labour police and crime commissioner ????????????

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It's in Labour's interests for this to be cleared up as soon as possible. Starmer has neutralised it by offering to resign if he gets an FPN.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Offering to resign because you got caught lying[assuming he gets a fpn] is neutralising what exactly.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Starmer "politicised" it by offering to resign if he got an FPN, ahead of any investigation.