Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hence, my "where possible", I know not all I buy can be grown in the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My (French) wife buys a lot of French produce. Even more than before, as there are no shortages since Brexit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Exactly. Shortages on the shelves are a UK issue, not an EU one.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting, I never knew they'd returned :tu:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Seems to be an EU problem too..:erm:

---------- Post added at 19:32 ---------- Previous post was at 19:31 ----------

See above.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Didn't you see the actual explanation for this? https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/b...-difficulties/

Caused by a local strike of number of warehouse workers who supply Carrefour.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It was over a month ago so I can understand why the explanation may have been forgotten.

---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:53 ----------

Interesting - there's hope for us still! :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Does anyone know where I can get some non EU salt and pepper? I've got to season a chicken later and I don't want it tasting to European

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nice Welsh salt here.
https://www.halenmon.com/

And I'm sure you can find some Indian pepper

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Thanks, much appreciated...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Morrisons
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/15...-brexit-update

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Do they even grow peppercorns in the EU?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You can bet if it had said 'non-UK' instead of 'non-EU', that some on social media would have assumed that and still 'cancelled' Morrisons.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Quite possibly.


I respect their right to a view, but gawd some of the FBPE types are sore losers and actually pretty pig ignorant of what others wanted and what more others took a lot of time and effort to achieve - both in the EU and UK camps.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The labelling was prepared in accordance with EU law, ironically enough. That law, which remains our law until next year, specifies the precise form of words Morrison’s used.

Funny how easily some Remainers are triggered though isn’t it. Almost as if they go round looking for things to get offended by.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed. Tbh, I get offended by them a lot of the time...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It will be updated to non-UK next year when the new laws come into effect. It does seem strangely prominent but I'm no label designer and I'm sure Morrison's know what they're doing on that front.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Probably just Morrisons taking the piss out of at least one of the ridiculous rules/laws that exist.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some good news:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...george-eustice

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Shame we have to get stroppy to bring common sense into the situation where the EU and it’s countries are concerned.

It would have been obvious from the start that the French fishing vessels were excluded by the UK for a justified reason.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is it coincidence that the UK and Jersey granted more fishing licences to the French before they changed their tune? Looks like there's been give and take on both sides which is positive.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My reading of it is that the European Commission is unwilling to back France’s gung-ho strategy, which is based on electioneering rather than treaty provisions. France therefore needed an ‘out’ having gone out on a limb with its threats, and Jersey has given it one by agreeing to expedite about half a dozen cases that have a chunk of admin attached to them but aren’t necessarily controversial in themselves.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It would be unlawful to issue licences without proof of prior fishing in uk/jersey waters

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Article 16 is not really court action though, it's just a device to convene talks (assuming this is what you're referencing).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Remember when we were told our standards would improve and taking back control would lead to more accountability? Where's that now as Owen Patterson is basically let off for his egregious breaking of the lobbying rules, I've said it before but the levels of corruption are shameful and more akin to a third world junta than the mother of all Parliaments, most of the current incumbents of which aren't fit to clean the chamber, let alone make decisions for the rest of us in it

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My SIL in France has been told by her neighbour that her son is leaving the fishing industry as the boat he worked on has been sold. Due to a lack of licences to fish UK/Channel Island waters.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm sure this would have happened even if we were EU members but it makes it harder for us to hold other nations to account with such lax standards ourselves.

We know the cost of Brexit - a 4% reduction in GDP according to the Government's own figures. It's disappointing that our governance standards are decreasing as well.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"We are dealing with ideologues. You cannot reason with them."

Disappointing that agreement has not been reached and yet more pressure on Johnson.

https://www.ft.com/content/e028f050-...a-48ed90b8671f

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If the cap fits …

There is an equally idealogical commitment to the European project within the Commission - after all it was their reckless idea to hitch the Northern Ireland peace process to the entire treaty bandwagon in the first place, and their insistence on nonsensical provisions about the movement of refrigerated meats within the territory of a sovereign country that has got us where we are.

They are using strong words right now, but they have good reason to be uttering dark threats. If the UK invokes Article 16, it will have taken a legal measure within the provisions of the treaty which the EC will have no option but to challenge legally … and that process could take quite some time to see through. It’s all very well them complaining about Lord Frost et al being idealogues, but what’s really eating them up is the fact that triggering Art.16 might just give the UK as much breathing space as it needs. The EU will either have to fight it out, and lose all control over its precious market controls in the meantime, or else come to terms in order to salvage something.

They really don’t want the UK to trigger Art.16, while I suspect the UK really does. All else is theatrics.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Post 2926 refers. Although Brexiters may sometimes get triggered by the prospect of triggering Article 16, it just means the EU and UK have to discuss safeguarding measures for the NI protocol.
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=2926

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm afraid I'm not party to Pierre's views on the psychology at play here.

We held all the cards for the easiest trade deal ever, so I'm surprised at the need to renegotiate a fantastic deal.

Johnson should have learnt from the Paterson scandal that trying to change the rules during the game rarely works.

Marking your own homework neatly describes what he wanted to do in Parliament by appointing a new standards committee dominated by the governing party. The Single Market is overseen by the ECJ and that's why it is involved in Northern Ireland. That link cannot be broken simply because the right wing of the Conservative Party have an ideological aversion to it.

Here's some information on Article 16.
https://davidallengreen.com/2021/09/...ng-to-trigger/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think you’re missing the point. Nobody is floating Art.16 as “reprisals”, except, possibly, the EC, which has its own reasons for casting the UK position in those terms. Plus other assorted sympathisers with an interest in presenting a strawman as an alternative to the UK’s actual position.

The point about Art.16 is it is a way of suspending most, if not all, of the irksome rules the UK wants rid of *while that collaborative review takes place*. And if the UK’s use of Art.16 is questioned as procedurally unsound, its invocation continues to apply while that undergoes legal challenge. Either way, invocation sweeps aside lots of rules interfering with the UK internal market, for quite possibly an extended period of time.

Those opposed to the UK’s position are by now so entrenched in their “gunboat diplomacy” narrative they can’t but assume Art.16 is HMG’s endgame, or perhaps just a defiant, jingoistic broadside from HMS Victory. It isn’t. When it is invoked -as it almost certainly will be - the EC will lose much of the regulation over goods that it has been trying to hold on to, for quite possibly a long while. Will they tolerate that while pursuing legal challenges or collaborative processes? Or will they suddenly improve their offer for fear of the new reality on the ground (or rather, in the Irish Sea) becoming the de facto settlement?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Major made the same point today when he said Johnson's government was behaving in unconservative behaviour and behaved in ways that were possibly politically corrupt.

For the record, I don't think everything Johnson touches turns to lead. I think he's done a good a job as any UK politician could do at COP 26, that kind of event is a good match for his skillset.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I can’t believe that, Major being such a supporter of Brexit and the current government, how can he say these things?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Mealy mouthed

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He wasn't talking about Brexit. Maybe he just doesn't like the way populist governments operate, and who can blame him.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Highy usual for Major to intervene in such a way.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Major has never liked Johnson and tried to veto his selections as an MP in the early days.


Let's not bear a grudge eh?

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------

John Major wasn't a Eurosceptic, at least not in the years he was in power.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

All roads lead to brexit, bozo and his chums believe "delivering" it has given them a get out of jail free card for pretty much anything, our trade losses are 178 times greater than our gains and no one bats an eyelid, we are now exporting beef and pork carcasses to Holland and Ireland because we have no butchers or meat processors here, adds £1500 per trailer to the costs and adds a load of paperwork both of which we were told were going to be slashed and no one says a word let alone attempts to hold anyone accountable

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But just think, in 50 years or so everything may come good if man of the people Rees Mogg is correct. Something to celebrate :o:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We were discussing this weekend if there was a trade war, what would hurt the UK most? I think from a political point of view, big fat tariffs on cars would do the trick. For my business, it would be data equivalency. Not being able to handle personally identifiable data of EU citizens would shut down most of our customer service/orders department which is based in the UK in a shot. We would need to fly customer service reps out and house them in the EU for order processing. That's nearly 100 people, leaving only a few who would handle UK and non-EEA orders. Yikes!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Originally he was for a referendum but against leaving. He's then called out the issues after the vote that he feels are damaging to the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ver-leaving-eu

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

To be fair I think that a fair few people who initially voted to remain would be in favour of leaving after seeing how the EU behaved in negotiations etc. But then, on the other hand, you'd probably see a fair few the other way round wanting to remain after seeing what a mess leaving is looking like...


The issue with the tories is that a lot of high profile MPs or former MPs were fundamentally in favour of leaving where a lot of them also were in favour of remaining, the split has been going on for years (and probably didn't help Major's government either) which is why they had difficulty going through the WA until May quit. When Labour basically vote with the whip it does make the job harder.



I think also some people are expecting results overnight whereas we lose access to the single market and what the EU can get us (and vice versa) and then have to do this for ourselves, we have the trade deal with the EU, and other countries, but these take time to work on - like presumably the EU's deals did initially. It's going to take a few years to sort out.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Can you define what you mean by sacrificing NI. Sacrificing it to the Single Market and accepting a sea border? Or something more drastic?

---------- Post added at 09:56 ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 ----------

Crikey! I can see this being built into companies' risk assessments when considering investing in the UK now, which is not a good thing.

I think whilst the unelected Frost may be a bit of an ideologist, Johnson is elected, and more of a realist and wouldn't want to risk such an outcome. That assumes he is aware of outcomes like this and doesn't choose to call it Project Fear or blame business for not preparing for it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah, I am trying to find out where all of our customer data is currently held. This would be for our ordering system and sales and marketing system. If the data is held in the EU, then it would be a big problem as we would just need to shift people who have access to the data abroad. If the data is held in the UK, then this would be a VERY big problem as we would need to shift the data AND the people.

I look after the UK and one EU country. Most of my work is that EU country, reflected the relative size of the industries there. Not quite sure how that would be managed.

That said, all hypothetical worst case stuff for a bit of an exercise...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I tend to live life by the saying, "if you assume, you make an ass out of you and me" hence I clarified. ;)

That's quite a big sacrifice.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If N.I. decided to split from the UK and become part of the EU, would we still have these arguments about sea borders etc?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They would be treated like the rest of the EU so there would be more checks than now which the Unionists would not like.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The issue is basically you have two factions in NI, One wants it united with the UK, one with the ROI, this has been an issue kept under wraps for ages, and is the issue here again...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes, the easiest solution is to have the UK and Ireland both in the European Single Market and Customs Zone or both out of it. Complications start when the two countries go in different directions as they are doing now.

It's understandable that some have an issue with ECJ having jurisdiction over some trade aspects in NI but that's a requirement of being part of the European Single Market and one which we signed up to. There is no perfect solution here and I suspect most people would forgo pure sovereignty to keep peace in Northern Ireland.

Frost and pals being triggered by three initials in a deal he negotiated won't change this. Perhaps there can be a way to develop a disputes mechanism so that the ECJ is there in the last resort, but it will take a better relationship with the EU than we have at present to make this a reality.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/conservati...1nc71h9qHpXvyk

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

“Hard working families”

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

yup - the ones who let foreigners do all the child care and housework ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why can't they send their children to a boarding school like Wycombe Abbey or Eton like any normal parent does? :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not enough tutors, they're all training as au pairs :D


anyway, it's only 6 weeks ago that the media were screaming about food shortages and HGV driver shortages . . with all the hysteria that surrounded it.

Seems that M&S at least had no worries as their quarterly (13 weeks) profits are up . . thanks to food sales apparently :D

M&S sales surge as food helps Covid bounce back

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59231186

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The really simple solution is the reunification of Ireland, which cannot be far off as the Catholic population increases ahead of the Protestant population. I’m not sure when the tipping point will come, but if my memory serves me correctly, it’s only a few years away.

In the 2011 census, the Protestants represented 48% of the population as against the Catholics at 45%. Although we can’t assume that all Catholics would vote for unification, most would, and so that time is likely to come fairly soon now.

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 13:04 ----------

It may have escaped your attention, but most people earning above average salaries are hard working.

You prove nothing by pointing to what a relatively small minority might do.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ireland has been a mess for many years, to be honest it's almost as bad as the Israel/Palestine situation. It won't go away . . no matter how much it's talked about.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Except that Israel and Palestine will never be able to resolve their differences, certainly in my lifetime, whereas a referendum to join NI with the Republic of Ireland would indeed resolve most of the issues if it resulted in a ‘yes’ vote. Of course, the Protestants would have their noses put out of joint, but they would have to accept the majority decision in the end.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Apparently only 30% back reunification per this survey.
https://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2020/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe they'd have to accept a referendum decision, but they don't have to like it . . just look at the Brexit crap posted on here.

Those with a violent past/history probably won't settle for just words on the internet either :shocked:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or start a civil war.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The lesson learnt from the Brexit negotiations and the Paterson affair is that when he's outgunned, Johnson retreats.

The EU will come down heavy on the UK if Lord Frost pushes forward with Article 16 and Johnson will do what he does best - back down and run for the hills. The group of what the Telegraph calls Spartans - has-beens and never-beens - who egg Johnson ever onwards into hard-line positions, will just have to accept reality.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That’s some premier league wishful thinking.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I hope they do accept reality but I fear you might be right.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It may have escaped your attention but most people on below average salaries work hard. Which makes the distinction completely pointless other than to be out of touch.

Pay Brits higher wages. That’s what we voted for isn’t it?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think you’re misreading the situation because you’re misunderstanding their calculus. The Johnson project thrives on the almost unequivocal backing they believe they have from key voters and mid market tabloids to “get Brexit done”. They feel empowered to do whatever it takes.

Johnson backed down over the Paterson affair right enough but it was nothing to do with being outgunned. The move caused outrage, including amongst those newspapers otherwise expected to cheer him on almost regardless. He’s a journalist at heart and the bad opinion of papers he believes to be influential over his key voters really matters to him. That’s what finally cut through last week, and triggered the u-turn even after the commons vote was won.

On the EU issue he still enjoys broad support in all the places that matter to him. In fact, kicking the EU is the thing most likely to improve his general standing amongst those voters and newspapers. On that basis he is now more likely to take a hard line on Art.16, not less. You were nearer the mark when you suggested BoJo is about to “do a Henry V” in the other thread this morning.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think he'll continue to do a Henry V with France, but end up backing down against the EU over NI, before or after triggering Article 16. And let's face it, he's got a willing accomplice in the form of Macron who benefits electorally from such skirmishes as well.

The current corruption allegations may indeed encourage him to trigger Article 16, but reality would make him do what defines this government the most: U-turns. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of phone calls from Nissan and Toyota after triggering Article 16.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/202...eland-protocol And then..

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1955071.html Probably no connection whatsoever...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah, I was wondering if Article 16 would be the 'dead cat' to distract from internal matters but, as Hugh said, it looks like a small backing away from that is on the cards. The noises were that the EU would retaliate for invoking Article 16, which is their right under the agreement. This, along with the US message seems to have focused minds a little

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's one way of looking at it and one I used to think about right, in the last couple of months though I've got a bit more conspiratorial, this constant arguing and sabre rattling maskS how badly they've mismanaged pretty much everything and if they can keep causing rifts and trouble by the time it all settles down years down the line or when they're finally booted out of office they can blame the EU for it!!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How is the EU going to protect its border with Belarus?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-migrants.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There probably isn’t. The signs are that HMG is working on a strategy to publicly justify and defend invocation before proceeding. Over at the BBC, Laura K’s money seems to be on Art.16 being invoked some time next month.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59256153

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nothing like a bit of nationalism to distract from problems elsewhere.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If that were the case, presumably they’d be doing it now, as some had speculated? I actually thought they would to be honest after the week they’ve had, but possibly they think something will come out of COP this weekend to distract everyone.

The debate over Art.16 on this forum has recently tilted towards whether they will actually do it at all, and particularly this week, whether an open letter from some congress members in America has stopped them. Research and reporting from Kuenssberg at the BBC suggests they do fully intend to proceed, and that Art.16 was the strategy from the outset. It’s just a matter of timing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They can use nationalism as a distraction by generating headlines with nationalistic hubris by speculating. This has the obvious benefit of not actually triggering Article 16 or dealing with consequences that would entail.

Four weeks of will they/won’t they will distract from corruption/Covid more effectively than triggering A16 now.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I tend to agree. We are only just at the mid-point of this parliament and Boris’ opponents in the party and the Press can tackle this as a leadership issue that - at present - has no necessary consequences for the next general election, which as things stand will not happen until May of 2024.

Had it all blown up at this point in 2023 all but the most rabid anti-Boris Tories might have held their noses and left well alone, for fear of putting Labour into government. That is not a present danger and if Boris is not unseated in the next 6 months (and personally I don’t think he will be) I suspect those who want him gone will be on the lookout for the next opportunity to have him gone by this time next year. That would give his successor a similar run-in to the next election that John Major enjoyed after unseating Margaret Thatcher.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If Article 16 was invoked, it would run and run. I think the government's sensible enough not to deploy it unless it still buys into the Cummings' play book of putting out one fire with a larger fire.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It would, but that’s the whole idea. There has been much talk of “retaliation” from the EU if the UK invokes Art.16 but this misses the fact that any such retaliation can only be within the legal framework set out in the treaty. The EU can’t justify any actions outside of the treaty because in invoking Art.16 the UK isn’t acting outside of the treaty.

The EU can challenge the legality of the invocation - the time-consuming process for which is specified in the treaty - or it can enter into the required arbitration and review process. Again, this process is defined in the treaty and takes time to complete.

As you say, this could be construed as putting out one fire by starting a bigger one, however if this really is the strategy they’ve been following from the outset then it has to be at least possible that there’s a defined objective in mind. My guess is that HMG thinks whatever conditions develop on the ground while the arbitration plays out will become the de facto arrangements for the long term.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I like the fact that the presumption that this Government have a plan has been demoted to “at least possible” therefore acknowledging the perhaps more likely possibility that there isn’t one and they are merely leaping from crisis to crisis.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why bother having a plan if nobody follows it? ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The plan has to be capable of being workable in the first place, otherwise it’s a wish-lust, not a plan…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Easy tiger, cold shower time;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Miaaaooowwwww….

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Brexit doesn't seem to be meeting the conventional definition of taking back control of our borders.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...k-refugees-say

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Start sinking the boats, they'll soon pack in

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Probably not the best move, as that would be murder…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe you have misjudged the power of the ECJ!

---------- Post added at 02:42 ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 ----------

Or maybe collateral damage?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, not under International Law (or our own Military Regulations) - undertaking acts whose sole purpose is to kill civilians (and if you sink boats and leave people to drown, that’s what you’re doing) would be an Unlawful Order, and would be refused.

It’s no better than machine-gunning civilians who present no threat to your life - just slower.

The sociopathy is strong in this thread…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m pretty sure you know that the Brexit discussion around border control was to do with EU free movement. It’s in rather poor taste for you to be using a humanitarian crisis to try to keep pushing your agenda.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The French don't seem to mind letting them climb aboard unsuitable boats (many not even wearing a life jacket) at their end . . is that culpable homicide, assisted suicide or something?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

<in a Yoda voice>Denial is strong in this one</in a Yoda voice>

Pearl clutching does not become you. The Brexit was all about "controlling our borders" and actively encouraged xenophobia. Andrew's article is right on point and the irony is off the scale.

There is no agenda here, only reality.