Re: Coronavirus
 

You can now put a question about the pandemic to the Government who may reply:

https://www.gov.uk/ask

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'd gladly go for that . . as long as it meant I had to stop going to work during the 'lock down' and got paid 80% of my wage :p:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's either that or they are going to have to ban offices with "hot desking", workers take whatever desk is available, which would just spread infection, my younger brother has had to work from home, they have provided a special computer, that allows him to carry out his work from home, but he told me the work stations are shared, he still lives at home with mum and dad and they are in the vulnerable group so he's been allowed to work from home.

But I notice routinely, he's always caught a cold, cough etc because of "hot desking".

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...box=1588406084 Better to have had them, and not needed them (as much as initially thought), than need them and not have them.

Re: Coronavirus
 

:tu:

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...cab2daaf67bff0

(Should be readable, as subscribers can use a Times-provided link for sharing)

Good approach - simulation, then beta testing, then general release.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The company I work for has several thousand employees over 3 cities with the vast, vast majority able to work from home.

We’ve been told that regardless of the government’s recommendations we should not expect to see the office this side of summer.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yep, I look forward to the smart phone they will be providing. :angel:

Re: Coronavirus
 

I expect they're anticipating a long list of preconditions for reopening offices that will be more trouble than they're worth if you can all work from home.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Bang on the money. All 3 sites have lifts (one has 6 floors) which would obviously be off limits. All floors would need to have the seating arrangements changed as very few if any of us have someone more than a metre or so away from our desks. We have always had a robust BCP but this is obviously the first time we’ve needed to put it in to action and management are massively impressed at how well we have all adapted. Other than calls usually taking a little longer to answer than normal it’s very much been business as usual. Management has told us that business such as ours would be towards last on the list to reopen fully.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Interactive map from the ONS ;

https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisation...map/index.html

Four obvious hotspots in the country, London, Birmingham, Liverpool & Manchester.

Re: Coronavirus
 

My sister works from home, she has daily video calls with the partners.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Legal challenge to the lockdown:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12...5oFjvnLhm1BWf4

Re: Coronavirus
 

The vast majority already have one.

https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/page...he-market.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52294896

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not a hope in hells chance of winning it l would say Richard.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Some people truly deserve a good hard kick in the bollards.

Re: Coronavirus
 

If he takes it to a Scottish court he'll probably win.

Re: Coronavirus
 

l doubt it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Never underestimate their hatred of any thing they perceive as English.;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Hate is never good papa l have always found.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Another ONS map, that goes down (almost) to postcode level.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisation...map/index.html

Re: Coronavirus
 

Having an idea of the number of people dying in my area is sobering. I hope it will be possible to up date the map.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Be interesting to compare population numbers for areas.

Visually Derby seems to have more than would be expected. Stanley, County Durham seems even more so, 18 just in South Stanley. That's 29 deaths for a population of 31,000(?), about twice the national average(?).

Re: Coronavirus
 

Scotland has its own lockdown. Any similarity to the English one is purely coincidental. ;)

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:42 ----------

Here are the unlocking plans for Ireland. Might give us a clue what to expect here:
https://assets.gov.ie/73722/ffd17d70...dde548f411.pdf

Re: Coronavirus
 

Sorry to hear that.
I suspect companies with hot-desking will have issues unless they continue with homeworking, as they won't have enough space for social distancing.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Technically our company switched to hot desking when we moved to a new building a few years ago.

In practice that never worked for the majority, and we all have our own desk.

It remains to be seen how they will work that, we have wide[ish] desks, but from memory they are not 6 feet apart (more like 4) and certainly not when you factor in the person opposite you (although you are separated from that person by a barrier/privacy screen, and your monitors).

Im expecting to be WFH for some time yet, probably into the autumn, especially as im fully set up for it while some are not so well set up at home.

Re: Coronavirus
 

All the changes they've made the my and in many offices are the opposite of what is now required. As well as hotdesking they've made desks smaller and smaller,so they can cram more in and save on real estate. Believe they called it 'densification'.

If we ever do get back to work it might be a nicer place with more space and desk dividers back and colleagues that have to keep their distance (peace at last maybe ;) ).

Re: Coronavirus
 

Interesting how the 100k tests was only achieved on one day,. To meet a political need and save some incompetent health minister's skin maybe?

They now appear to be ramping them down again as it's down to 75k . Germany have carried out more than 4 times as many tests, hence why they're in top of the situation and we aren't.
. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...76496-21967333

Re: Coronavirus
 

Tests can only be carried out when those that qualify go for them.

There is no reported shortage of availability to attain the 100k tests but that doesn't fit your narrative does it?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Hard for some to drive many miles to these tests if they don't have a car or drive. That doesn't seem to have occurred to the muppets that run the country.

We'll soon have the most deaths in Europe, there is a reason why.

Re: Coronavirus
 

1) It was all about capacity. That target has been reached.
2) The average over the 3 days is still more than 100,000.
3) As the tests take hours to carry out, the results could appear in the next days figures.
Link
The reference to 1m/week = 200,000/day, suggests no weekend testing.

This why Germany's figures are better.
It was never widespread in the first place regardless of testing. It was more localised.

---------- Post added at 22:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:47 ----------

Re: Coronavirus
 

The 100K test was a target and yes would have been a black mark had it not been reached but the media put so much stock in it, Piers Morgan asking if Hancock would resign if it wasn’t met. That it became a side show, “ooh today’s the day, has the government met their target?” then immediately when it looked like it would be met, the narrative became , “well testing is no good without contact tracing”

You also have to have 100K people per day that want to be tested and can be tested.

It’s bollocks in my professional opinion, not the testing, but chasing numbers.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'll debate that with you this time next year, if we are both still here of course.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It probably did occur, but what do you expect them to do about it?

Oh yeah.

There are tests that can be requested by post, and returned by post. Good old Fozzie.


Which is?

Re: Coronavirus
 

That we’re the best and most honest at collating the figures, apparently.

https://order-order.com/2020/05/03/h...ely-reporting/

Re: Coronavirus
 

The tests Pierre, the tests!!!

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's currently a lot closer than I thought. Your chat with Mr K made me look the stats up - the countries with the most deaths in Europe are the UK with 28,446 and Italy with 28,884. (I appreciate that countries may measure CV-19 deaths in different ways and with different timeliness of data.)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52524001

Re: Coronavirus
 

Seeing at the rates vary widely within Germany itself, testing cannot be the reason.:rolleyes:
That's a 7.5 fold difference between lowest and highest. Did Bayern do anything wrong?

Re: Coronavirus
 

About as interesting as your daily trolling. :dozey:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Head of British Statistics say British Statistics are best, even though Belgium and France started counting COVID-19 deaths outside of hospitals long before we did... ;)

Also, an example of evolution in action...

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1588546259

Re: Coronavirus
 

The stats mean nothing at present unless you think we are on the downside of this.

As with Mr K I'll discuss this with you this time next year.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

So still totally unconnected to testing.


You cannot compare population densities by simply dividing the population by land area. Populations are not spread in a uniform manner. Geography of the land tends to get in the way. Eg Mali looks big, but it has a large chunk of the Sahara desert.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The fact that the two countries are apparently so close in numbers does mean that Mr K's assertion that "We'll soon have the most deaths in Europe" is possible even if it is for a short period of time.
What this data indicates is another matter entirely.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

My point is that it highlights the fact that testing wasn't the reason for that and other variations. You simply cannot compare countries or areas by population size or area.

My point about population density also still stands. Doesn't matter what the size of the country or population, the population can still be crammed into small areas. Eg is the population of Australia uniformly spread, or is there heavy concentrations in cities? Around 1.4m of the 5.5m population of Scotland live in just 4 cities.



There are examples around the world where small and remote areas have been heavily infected compared to the larger surrounding area.
The numbers may be relatively small, but the proportion is high.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Is the German testing question to do with public health being a Länder/State responsibility? Germany is super federal compared to most countries.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

:confused: I'm trying to highlight the fact that testing isn't the factor certain people are trying to make out. So many other factors are in play. The concentrations of population, again highlight that you cannot compare areas/countries of similar population. Certain people are trying to claim country X did better, when there can be no possible way of comparing them. Even Germany has PPE and testing shortages, and they haven't been as badly affected as other countries.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Because these things are not stand-alone - as the Imperial College paper stated, it's the combination and number of factors/things you do that affect the infection/sickness/death rate.

Also, socio-economic factors have an effect as well - deprived communities have higher infection/death rates.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Testing was a major factor in the early stages. Countries that went big on it early on were able to track and isolate cases eg. Germany and S Korea.
By the time we realised the importance of testing it was too late, the disease was out of control. We gave up testing all but the seriously ill, which was a bit late to put it politely.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Testing HA!

There are people out there going to work every day in shops, factories, warehouses, public transport etc, that cannot request a test kit unless they have symptoms . .


bit bloody late then isn't it, considering they've had a few days to spread it around more :rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think nomadking may have missed the bit where you agreed with him about the testing.

It is certainly true that people are making wild comparisons between countries. As the government has indicated, I think the time for a measured response to this is when the pandemic is under control and we can work out exactly what has happened, country by country. This will include the methodology of calculating the number of deaths, which varies around the world.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Try telling Mr K that.;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Of course, you get everything right first time, don't you, Mr K. It's easy to be wise after the event and to sit back and criticise while others actually do the work. It is refreshing to note that Labour has been supportive of the government on their handling of this to date and have offered to join with them in tackling this, which the Johnson government has gladly accepted.

As far as Germany and South Korea are concerned, yes, they got off to a flying start. Only when this is over will we know how relevant that was. Remember, there are still a lot of people out there who have not yet been infected, and so the whole thing might yet start again out there.

---------- Post added at 11:56 ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 ----------

I await his one-liner jokey response....:D

Re: Coronavirus
 

The government have said they have made mistakes that have cost lives. So, you have to accept that people are going to criticise. Especially when their are glaringly obvious errors that have been made.

Look at the 'success' Greece & New Zealand have had in managing their instances of the pandemic.

Greece has just 146 deaths, New Zealand 20

Before you say, but ah they're spread out and different country etc. etc. yes, it does to a degree play a part. However the single biggest thing that they did was to lockdown fast and they did it hard.

The government has had the same evidence as other western countries, the issue is they made bad decisions at the outset.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Seeing as we're well into the 'numbers game' . . .

Can someone post up a list of countries with figures of total infected and subsequent survival figures?

. . . or is it just a race to the top with deaths?

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's available on the Johns Hopkins dashboard

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/a...23467b48e9ecf6

Re: Coronavirus
 

Tells me 902 have recovered in the UK from 187,842 confirmed cases . . got anything accurate?

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's as good as the data it's provided with....

NHS ?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Case rests m'lud regarding statistics :p:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not really. But, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Try this site Carth. Scan down to all the results in table format. Figures are still being posted for to-day but most every figure is in for yesterday.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Re: Coronavirus
 

Lowest rise in 7 weeks. Yep tomorrow we'll have the rest of the weekend numbers but this is still very encouraging.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Its certainly a improvement as tomorrow , Wednesday and Thursday should reveal more.

---------- Post added at 15:13 ---------- Previous post was at 14:30 ----------

Apparently Buzzfeed have obtained The Government’s Draft Plan To Ease Coronavirus Lockdown Measures In The Workplace.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham...rkpace-in-full

Re: Coronavirus
 

Once you've gone through all that twaddle the day will be over before any work is done, glad i'm retired.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The UK does not seem to provide recovery numbers.

They are not on the government site : https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Re: Coronavirus
 

Greece had it's first case around a month after the UK and Italy. If you have less cases being brought into a country in the first place, then less cases will result.


Although they closed schools, etc and cafes, etc, before then, their restrictions on movement only started on 22nd March, just 1/2 days before the UK.Sound familiar?


Croatia
New Zealand
Worldwide, most of the lockdowns occurred around the same time.


IMO unless the UK lockdown continues until at least the end of May, it runs the risk of running rampant again. Too many large gatherings are due to take place before the end of May.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm on record on here, consistently from the very start, saying that the lock down would run until the end of May.

Furthermore, if the schools don't reopen on Monday 1st June, then they won't reopen until the new school year in Sept.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I’m sorry but you’re obviously well aware of the glaring deficiency in your appeals to New Zealand and Greece. You can’t dismiss that with an airy wave of your hand. The differences between a great many countries in the world, and the U.K., are profound. This is one of the best connected countries on the planet and London is one of the few true global cities in the world. Greece and NZ are partly, or entirely island based but there the similarities end; the sheer depth of connectivity the U.K. has more than overcomes that similarity. Neither country is a major international transit hub and NZ in particular is thousands of miles from anywhere else of any significance. There is literally nothing we can learn from NZ on this, given the immense differences in population size, geography and movement of people in and out of the country.

I know it’s desperately fashionable to beatify Jacinda Ardern these days but frankly, she’s playing the very lucky hand she was dealt, and that’s all.

Re: Coronavirus
 

But playing it well... ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Now, for some clarity post the sentence paragraph before this sentence 'Some accused the government in Athens of not just entrusting the handling of the pandemic to scientists, but of handing over responsibility too.'

We've read the same article and I know why you missed it out.....

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:41 ----------

I'll think you find a) i can, and b) i have.

1) If we're one of the best connected countries in the world then we should have acted quicker on inbound flights, temperature scanning, forcing people to self quarantine. Things that New Zealand did.

2) New Zealand blocked all inbound air traffic apart from repatriation flights. The UK not doing it because the virus is already circulating.

3) New Zealand, Greece locked down quickly, and hard. with more restrictions on movement.

4) New Zealand instigated mass contact tracing. The UK government abandoned it because it was 'difficult'

If you don't think that the UK government can learn from other nations then, that's a pretty immature attitude to take.


The UK did far too little, too late. We're now seeing the evidence of that played out.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The New York Times has got hold of an internal CDC presentation, that has some scary (US) forecasts.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthel...ull.pdf#page=1

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/04/u...#link-7b42d0f5 That’s scary, if the projections are accurate.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Which, whilst trying to sound clever, comes across as inept.

If you think U.K. = NZ and/ or Greece is a pretty amateurish attitude to take.

Obviously speaking as someone with viral pandemic emergency planning experience? <removed>

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

She is, but I think it’s fair to say she’s playing whist whereas some other, larger, more centrally connected countries are playing bridge. ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

The government have been acting on the advice of the scientists throughout. Had they not done so, you would have been the first to criticise.

Where do you think the phrase 'herd immunity' came from? The government didn't make it up. Had Labour been in government and done exactly the same things, you would be full of praise, no doubt.

Criticism is all very well when deserved, but criticism for the sake of it is not cricket, old chap.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The government may well be “acting” on the advice of the scientists, that does not necessarily mean they are doing as the scientists say. The difference is in the clever wording.

I’m not saying they’re ignoring scientists but there’s no doubt this government (as likely with any) is “following” whatever advice makes them look like they’ve been “successful”.

And now we have the highest death toll in Europe. So not really a success in my opinion.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So the absurdity of assuming that geography is irrelevant goes on.

The variables at play here are staggering in their complexity. Population size, mobility and age are major factors. The balance of the domestic economy, its manufacturing capacity and adaptability are also relevant. Whether or not you have a significant first or second generation immigrant population comes into it, as does whether any of your airports are major international hubs. What international business is done in a country and the amount of international travel that prompts, and how wealthy, in global terms, your population is, also feeding into the international travel statistics - these are also significant. And, of course, the tactics and timing deployed against the virus by the authorities. Which, tediously, seems to be the only variable anyone here wants to obsess over.

Geography, people. Get a map out and have a look. This country is literally at the middle of the fecking world. If you don't think that makes a difference, then there's no hope for any of us, because for us to rebuild our economy once this is over is going to take a lot more creative thinking and adaptability, from every last one of us, than is evident in this discussion.

:rant:

Rant over, I have an actual essay to write.

Re: Coronavirus
 

1) I know where herd immunity comes from, so no need to patronise. Interestingly the scientists were the first to say allow herd immunity and then quickly backed out of that when they saw the projected deaths for allowing that method to continue.

2) I'm not a historical labour voter or supporter, You don't know me well enough to make that assumption So, sssshhhhh

Criticisms are justified at both the scientists AND the government for the way that the pandemic has been handled in this country.

---------- Post added at 10:15 ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 ----------

Quite.

---------- Post added at 10:20 ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 ----------

So, heres the thing, Whilst what you say holds merit to a degree. The variable that you claim people are obsessing over is the only variable to which we have a degree of control.

it's therefore blatantly bloody obvious, that this is the area that will be focussed on.

Re: Coronavirus
 

New Zealand is probably not a good comparison simply because of geography. It is isolated, split into two distinct islands so controls on incoming and movement are likely easier. It is also likely that isolating self has been practised and planned for other situations so they could have mechanisms in place already to enact them.

We still have coastguard picking up people trying to get into Britain by boat so yes we can close borders and be an island but we are closer to other countries than New Zealand.

New Zealand has a total population of 4 million - less than London alone so surely contacts are more easily traced and dealt with. And how do populations behave? Did New Zealanders see the problem coming and prepare themselves BEFORE government made any pronouncements. In the UK we could see there was an issue, it was suggested we stayed at home but we saw the biggest numbers at some beauty spots recorded as if our idea of preparations was to get out and enjoy now, then hoard up and force government to bring in stricter enforcement.


We also need to take into account if NZ has mostly had the "A" form of the virus that some figures show to have a lesser impact.

---

On the issue of ethnicity and poverty in the statistics it is hard to separate out the factor as the press want to but if poorer and non-white families live in more multi-generational households whether forced to or by choice/culture that will have an impact. It is worth study and we should work to lessen poverty and the impacts of poverty but where groups choose to live larger households then infectious diseases will likely hit them more.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The Register (in amongst its standard snark and Government bashing) makes a good point about the UK's tracking app - it probably won't work.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/0...ronavirus_app/

Re: Coronavirus
 

I wonder why they ignored Apple/Google. Something to do with centralisation of data I'm presuming.

Re: Coronavirus
 

AIUI, it is only designed to register as a contact if they have been in close proximity for 15 minutes anyway. (I'd love to understand the rationale for this)

Re: Coronavirus
 

What's annoying is anyone who knows the basics of how iOS and Android operate where stating this from the start. Ministers seem to think sheer willpower or words at a press conference can overcome technical limitations. It doesn't matter how much we collectively believe in the Government, it won't work in the background.

Apple and Google knew this too which is why they've preempted the issue by providing their own APIs that do what's required without allowing anyone to use it to track you or to store data about users in a centralised database. Understandably either company is warm to the idea of a Government exemption to the security measures their devices take against applications on their platforms.

This app is shaping up to be another disaster in the making and one which they'll claim, several weeks from now, couldn't be foreseen and they'll blame Apple and Google for not giving them the access they need. Much like the encryption debate political journalists won't understand the issue at a technical level and will present it in those terms.

I don't know why they continue to push down this path. If they want it work they need to adopt the APIs that work.

Anyway let's all come back to this in a few weeks when the debate moves to how could the Government possibly know the app had this flaw.

Re: Coronavirus
 

BREAKING: Coronavirus: Rival states targeted UK and U.S coronavirus labs with 'malicious cyber campaigns'

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...aigns-11983517

Re: Coronavirus
 

A view that may not be supported by the facts.

The advice ministers have been given by the scientists has now been published.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52542109

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

I would hope that the relevant networks are suitably air gapped and suitable restrictions in place.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think you're indulging in a little clever wording of your own, and tying yourself in semantic knots. ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not in the slightest. I don’t doubt they’re taking on board what their scientists are saying but I haven’t seen anything yet that shows they’re following to the word everything that they’re being told. And Boris claiming anything they’ve done in terms of a response to the outbreak being a “success” tells us that it all comes with a nice little Tory spin.

Re: Coronavirus
 

More here.

https://www.gov.uk/government/groups...id-19-response

Re: Coronavirus
 

Certainly, pharmaceutical manufacturing systems are very well protected with air gaps, hardware firewalls, etc. Stuxnet back in 2010 put a huge rocket up the industry and its' security systems. The company I work for offered a system where we could remote log in to manufacturing hardware for remote diagnostics and the answer from the industry was a unanimous 'nope'.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Spot on :tu: the spin noted being at about 10,000 RPM.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

A virus will always mutate. That is not unexpected.

This is worth a watch.

Re: Coronavirus
 

A remarkable fact here:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52526554