Re: Brexit
 

You might want to look up 'military', which have been exactly the words mentioned by this corrupted EU and some of it's members.


https://www.politico.eu/article/ange...mplement-nato/

Didn't Nick Clegg suggest the idea of an EU Army, was a dangerous fantasy ???

Re: Brexit
 

Ministers summoned to Downing Street to see Brexit agreement text

https://news.sky.com/story/ministers...-text-11553420

now lets see if any more resign

Re: Brexit
 

Here we go

Re: Brexit
 

Resignations or support?

Re: Brexit
 

I did.

It said "see Brexit"... ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Well we should know by tomorrow night whether we still have a full government cabinet left or half of it might have resigned.

Re: Brexit
 

Nailed it. :)

Re: Brexit
 

Did you look that up on hughgle ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Of course it did - You are FAKE NEWS. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 17:22 ---------- Previous post was at 17:21 ----------

But then it fell off. So hardly.

Re: Brexit
 

He's running out of nails :)

Re: Brexit
 

That was before the EU Empire was mentioned. Naturally it needs an army to enforce its dictats.

Now who said that? :scratch:

Re: Brexit
 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live

Re: Brexit
 

PM Theresa May - is calling Cabinet Ministers in, one by one this evening to review the Draft deal text between the United Kingdom and EU - the last Prime Minister to call in ministers this way, was Margaret Thatcher - history recalls she resigned shortly thereafter on 28th November, 1990. Almost 28 Years ago to the day.

Re: Brexit
 

Robert Peston on Twiiter..
‏

Re: Brexit
 

Seems like she's successfully delivering Remain. Well done old girl, you've gone up enormously my estimation ! Totally outmanouvered the Brexiters.

Re: Brexit
 

According to those in the know Theresa May faces a uphill struggle with Tory Remainers and Leavers. She will tell both it’s her deal or we might not leave at all.

And Jeremy Corbyn has just put out a statement stating this is 'unlikely to be good deal for the country'

Re: Brexit
 

Much the same thing either way under her plan. She's as cunning as a fox ;)

Re: Brexit
 

It’s when the deal is voted down chaos will really kick in. Corbyn and Boris both hope to become PM as a result

Re: Brexit
 

And that seems very inevitable.

Re: Brexit
 

It gets worse from the pathetic corrupted cretins....

From Guy Verhofstadt in the last hour or so:

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/s...64912373153792

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Labour, the DUP, Boris and the ERG have all come out quickly to condemn a deal they haven’t seen. I want to know what their idea for the border and for trade is.

Re: Brexit
 

Rumour is that that the deal text has been leaked to the Irish Media, (thanks for that disrespect EU) and that the draft agreement sees the UK become a Slave State to the EU, we will be in a Customs Union and it will see the break up of the UK Union, Northern Ireland etc.

Re: Brexit
 

Why would a customs union see the break up of the UK?

Re: Brexit
 

That the deal text says there must be a Hard border down the Irish sea perhaps ?

Re: Brexit
 

I am with you on that one, Damien.

---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:28 ----------

Something that I thought Theresa May has already ruled out. I don't think anyone should be taking a position on this until the detail of the deal is known. We don't even know the highlights yet.

Re: Brexit
 

None of them are elected apart from;

• The Commission President who is proposed by the elected heads of state and voted in by the Parliament
• The 28 Commissioners nominated by the 28 countries governments and voted on by Parliament

The Commission can propose legislation but cannot pass it, that's the job of Parliament (directly elected) and Council (heads of state indirectly elected in most cases)

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 18:54 ----------

Of course I want a good deal for the UK, who in the UK wouldn't? However, it's a basic sales technique to understand and appreciate your adversaries priorities. It's not defending Ireland or the EU to understand and appreciate why they are acting in the way they do.

In the case of our recent discussions, appreciating the GFAs aims and how the CU and SM facilitate this gives a baseline for future negotiations. Both Northern Ireland and the Republic very strongly voted in favour of the agreement so there is a clear will to continue the agreement in some way or form. It's now down to the UK and EU negotiators to find that way.

The EU negotiates as a bloc for the EUs and member states interests. The EU is not going to happily or willingly compromise it and its' member states interests to facilitate Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Thank you, kind sir - much appreciated.

Re: Brexit
 

In the end we're running out of time and May actually has to find a workable solution. If the Irish border question is solved then someone needs to let the Government know instead of dismissing it but 'not telling' what the alternative is.

Re: Brexit
 

You have a very strange idea of democracy, not elected by the people! Being elected by the establishment doesn’t cut it i’m afraid.

The commission are the law makers, the parliament gets to debate it.

Our own unelected chamber is at least only there for oversight! They cannot make or propose any laws. The EU model is not compatible with proper Democracy

Re: Brexit
 

Totally agree.

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

Do you know who leaked it or are you assuming it's the EU?

Re: Brexit
 

If "Brexit means Brexit", how come there is so much disagreement in the Government and the Conservative Party about what Brexit means?

Re: Brexit
 

We've moved on now it's the deal is the deal.:(

Re: Brexit
 

I'm not sure talking down-to-earth sense with the likes of BoJo and Rees-Mogg will really cut their mustard.

Re: Brexit
 

Because the definition of Brexit for some is very much different to the definition of Brexit for someone else hence the omnishambles of the last 2 years.

Re: Brexit
 

Let's see the deal before we label it, Den.

Re: Brexit
 

l am not labelling it as l am just pointing out what the definition of Brexit means to different people OB whether its in the government or in the country.

Re: Brexit
 

So what's the definition of omnishambles ? Brexit? ;)

Re: Brexit
 

That's at the heart of the issue. The Government should have negotiated a withdrawal deal with the EU before offering people a vote. Then people wouldn't have had to vote blindly and we wouldn't have such splits in the Government.
This is not some cosy philosophical chat over a few ports in Eton, it's about the future of the UK, its inhabitants and citizens.

Re: Brexit
 

Leavers expected us to leave the EU, no half measures. All this nonsense about whether voters wanted only half measures is just silly.

If we have a text which gives us back our sovereignty, stops free movement, ends the customs union and gives us back control of our agriculture and fisheries after the relatively brief transition period, I shall be very happy, as will most people who voted leave.

Re: Brexit
 

exactly :clap::clap::clap:

Re: Brexit
 

l am just pointing that if the cabinet is quite clearly split on Brexit how on earth are you going to agree a deal that is acceptable to all in that cabinet.

Re: Brexit
 

Rumour circulating that she's going try and buy Labours votes by promising a General Election. She can't rely on her own party.

Re: Brexit
 

Therein lies the problem. Many of the key leavers suggested otherwise. Here's a reminder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY

Re: Brexit
 

wating for the normal project fear cry ;) oh wait

Re: Brexit
 

The Parliament gets to debate, amend and veto it along with the council. The commission cannot pass laws except under very specific circumstances (Technical laws) The Ordinary Legislative Procedure has the full scrutiny of direct or indirectly elected representatives. In addition, the council and parliament can suggest laws to the commission.

But we have has this discussion many times and it seems that because the way the EU does things is different, it is wrong even though our government along with all the others at the time approved it in the Maastricht Treaty and beyond.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

The hard leavers take the vote literally, yet the leave campaign was anything but.

As someone pointed out on News Night, 17+ million do not speak for the whole population, no matter how often this is repeated.

Re: Brexit
 

No such thing as a hard leaver.

The question on the ballot paper wasn't...

"Do you want to leave the EU hard?"

As for the rest of your post - yet again - it's one sided rubbish with you.

The Remain campaign played by the same rules, in other words they took the referendum literally too and also LIED!!!

Guess what - that person on News Night is talking utter bollocks, as I keep telling you and it will continue to be repeated, as it is fact - you cannot keep bringing "Whole population" argument in to this, it is irrelevant, those who did not vote, could not be arsed to vote, do not count afterwards.

You really do need to stop bringing this weak and pathetic argument up every other day, it is misleading and highly irrelevant.

---------- Post added at 23:09 ---------- Previous post was at 23:08 ----------

Don't pollute this thread with bollocks about Robert Mueller who holds absolutely no jurisdiction on UK Affairs or matters or indeed Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

Calling a point weak, does not address the problem of a deeply divided country that has seen the problems being laid in leaving the EU. Things are not simplistically black or white, but shades of grey.

I do not want a cliff edge departure, but this is what looks most likely.

Re: Brexit
 

But it is weak as an argument by yourself as a means to stop the Democratic decision.

Cliff edge, what's a Cliff edge ?

It's only language used to by Remainers with their project fear rubbish, I do not recognise such language.

Democracy must prevail and that does not mean holding several referendums on the same issue again and again.

Re: Brexit
 

Lots of reader comments on the FT about the deal. This sums them up.
https://www.ft.com/content/c97af42a-...5-04b8afea6ea3

Re: Brexit
 

Yes they do, that's the whole point of a referendum.

Everyone had their chance to vote, if they didnt take it, well thats tough.

Re: Brexit
 

BREAKING: Hearing on Grapevine that Brexit Secretary of State, Dominic Raab has Resigned according to Tory HQ insiders. If true this is curtains to Theresa May’s Premiership.

Re: Brexit
 

Apparently Theresa May is trying to get him to stay.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

If all 17+ million had exactly the same idea of what leaving meant you would have a point, but they didn't.

Odd how more people voted remain than voted for the current government. The snap general election results do not support any particular stance on Brexit. If anything, they show a lack of conviction that the Tories were the right party to sort it out.

Re: Brexit
 

Don't be daft, Angua. Both Conservatives and Labour were standing on the basis that they would implement the result of the referendum. I'd love to hear your explanation about why more people didn't vote Liberal Democrat!

If you seriously believe that most leave voters didn't understand that leave meant leaving the EU, I really don't know where you are getting your information from!

It's the remainers who are deliberately trying to make all this more complicated.

Re: Brexit
 

Yes they did, if you leave your house, you are no longer in it. If you leave a country, you are no longer in it. If you are asked a question on a ballot paper that asks you if you want to either stay or leave a union and the majority of the voter pick leave, then that means we leave the union.

Re: Brexit
 

Bit pointless resigning at this stage. Cabinet can reject the proposals and ask the negotiators to continue negotiating.

Re: Brexit
 

Precisely, Mick. The arguments I am hearing from the other side are getting increasingly tenuous, and frankly desperate.

Re: Brexit
 

Have you had a chance to consider my point about all those leave politicians who said otherwise and I've provided video evidence of?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

That would be a fair point if the leave politicians had said this back in 2016. As the video I supplied showed, many said otherwise. Leave meant different things to different people but as this has not been recorded, we'll never know. I suspect most but not all wanted a clean Brexit. How close that is to 17m I don't know.

Re: Brexit
 

People must be a bit thick, if they didn't know what the word 'leave' means.

I know what it meant - that's why I ticked it and would do so again and again and AGAIN.

If they did not want to fully leave the EU - Then they should have picked Remain on the ballot.

When I select something that says leave - I know what it means - it means leaving something in it's entirety. "Depart from", "Exit from", to "leave" the group, exit from, no longer connected to group or in said group.

It really is quite ridiculous coming up with people did not know what they were voting for, yet again - it's the same folk like you, yet again trying to de-legitimise the result, talking of the vote being invalid - it isn't, you have previously said you accept the result but you keep going over the result every single time.

No amount of bringing up the numbers will change the democratic result, nor should it. There was quite a large turn out for the vote - those who didn't bother, then that's their loss and it cannot be said, that they didn't vote leave, but by the same token - they did not vote to remain either.

---------- Post added at 08:10 ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 ----------

Absolutely - and overbearingly repetitive and very weak.

Re: Brexit
 

Well several have already resigned up to this stage Andrew in the last few months unless you have not noticed and not much has changed from then to now in terms of the continuing cabinet chaos over Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

If I was Raab and disagreed with it, I can't see a downside in rejecting it and sending our negotiators back for another shot. He can always resign if they come with a deal he doesn't like. Resigning now just weakens the Government.

Re: Brexit
 

BREAKING: DUP Leader Arlene Foster is on route to London as of this morning, as it currently stands, DUP are refusing to back draft new text which they says threatens the long term relationship of the UK Union with NI.

They say it is unacceptable EU have jurisdiction on their trade deals, that the UK will effectively be handcuffed to the EU and EU will hold the keys. This is not reflecting on the democratic result of the British people and we will refuse to back this on any vote in parliament.

May is in trouble already and it's barely 9 AM !!!

---------- Post added at 09:01 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------

BREAKING: LEAKED DETAILS OF THE DRAFT TEXT SO FAR:

What's in the text of the draft agreement?

Only the prime minister, EU officials and cabinet ministers are supposed to have seen the text of the draft Brexit agreement so far.

However, leaked details reveal:

1. There is no longer a Northern Ireland-only backstop arrangement aimed at avoiding a hard Irish border, say Number 10 sources
2. However, according to the Daily Telegraph, Northern Ireland will be in a "different regulatory regime" and "subject to EU law and institutions" under a UK-wide backstop arrangement
3. The Times says the PM has agreed to "level playing field" measures tying the UK to EU rules in areas such as state aid and environmental and workers' rights protections under the backstop
4. The Financial Times says the UK will not be able to leave a UK-EU customs union under the backstop arrangement without the EU being satisfied other arrangements are in place to avoid a hard Irish border
5. The same newspaper reports a clause in the draft agreement allows the UK to potentially extend the Brexit transition period beyond December 2020, while a declaration on the future EU-UK relationship remains incomplete
6. A leaked diplomatic note seen by The Times reveals how the EU intends to use a UK-EU customs union and "level playing field" commitment under the backstop as the basis for the UK's future relationship with the bloc

Re: Brexit
 

Well by tonight or not long after we will know if Theresa May has miraculously suddenly united her warring cabinet or the brown stuff is about to hit the fan,

Re: Brexit
 

As others tell us denphone, it's a strong and stable government. ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Sadly neither the government or the opposition are offering us that currently Andrew.

Re: Brexit
 

It would be interesting to hear peoples views on the last time we did have a strong and stable government, just to see all the conflicting reactions :D

Re: Brexit
 

My understanding was that some leave campaigners said that the UK should leave the EU but get preferential access to the single market without having to accept freedom of movement to get it.

I know comparisons were made to Norway, etc, but surely that was to demonstrate that even those arrangements were better than staying in the EU.

I, and from my conversations with other leavers (and there are a lot of them), others who voted the same way, are all pretty clear that we wanted, and still want, was a clean break with the ability to forge our own trade deals. The big bus is proof that the leave campaign was looking to save all the money we were paying into the EU.

The same views are reflected in the comments made by leavers in this Forum.

---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------

Don't take any notice of this fake news, Seph. Raab is going nowhere.

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------

Yes, they have, Den, because the leavers believe that we are not getting to leave.

I understand that, but what we need to bear in mind is that the document TM has negotiated is about the transition period, during which we would have left but we are still tied to EU rules with no say during roughly a 20 month period. At the end of that, we should have a no-tariff trade deal with the EU and we will be released from EU jurisdiction and the customs union.

Some don't want to wait, but if we want to ensure frictionless trade during this period to help our businesses, then we have to do this.

Re: Brexit
 

DUP Latest: Arlene Foster interestingly points out this morning and says the DUP Confidence and Supply agreement is with the Conservative Party, not Theresa May.

Re: Brexit
 

gonna be a interesting day

Re: Brexit
 

That would open a can of worms! (for me, Thatcher 1988 or Blair 1998 so good economy, massive majority and no Poll Tax riots or fuel protests)

Re: Brexit
 

Oh yeah, and of course they would have offered us a fantastic deal!

DC tried to do a deal before the referendum, and was sent home with a flea in his ear.

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------

That's right, the time when we should have had a referendum. The Irish had one, and they opposed it, and then they were told to have another one until they agreed with it.

Sound familiar.

Re: Brexit
 

Like Brexit, it wasn't that simple...

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...d-lisbon-polls

Re: Brexit
 

The Daily Telegraph’s chief political correspondent Christopher Hope has tweeted that he has heard two cabinet ministers will resign today.

The rumoured pair are international development secretary Penny Mordaunt, and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Esther McVey.

Re: Brexit
 

All these people resigning . . does that mean they can't claim unemployment (or whatever it's now called) for 6 months?

:D :D

Re: Brexit
 

That sounds so reasonable, doesn't it?

Except that if the answer was 'right' the first time with this same ill-informed referendum, would there have been another one?

Of course not. So cynical.

Re: Brexit
 

They still have their MP salary to scrape by on...

---------- Post added at 15:40 ---------- Previous post was at 15:38 ----------

I know - imagine people with more information available making a different choice - that would never happen here...

Re: Brexit
 

Maybe this is a lesson for future referendums, if indeed we ever tread that path again. Inform thoroughly first, then take the vote.

In this case though, I very much doubt the view of the British electorate would have changed. The Establishment still appears to be blissfully unaware of the population's attitude to the undemocratic and bureaucratic EU.

Re: Brexit
 

They were believed to be absent during PMQ's earlier today...

---------- Post added at 15:52 ---------- Previous post was at 15:48 ----------

What makes you think the misinformation wouldn't happen again, during more campaigns?

Most people I know who voted to leave, like me, had already made up their minds years earlier.

---------- Post added at 15:59 ---------- Previous post was at 15:52 ----------

BREAKING: Prime Minister Theresa May, expected to make Statement outside 10 Downing Street at 5PM according to Reuters News Agency.

Re: Brexit
 

cabinet must of agreed the deal

Re: Brexit
 

Not sure - word is 2 Cabinet Ministers are expected to Resign.

Re: Brexit
 

l think the two cabinet ministers who look like they are going to resign made it quite clear that they were unhappy with the deal.

---------- Post added at 16:20 ---------- Previous post was at 16:18 ----------

Apparently its going to be later now according to several sources.

Re: Brexit
 

BBC reporter in Brussels just said Dominic Raab could go to Brussels tonight to announce a summit end of November

Re: Brexit
 

Insignificant ministers really. TM is on the winning straight already on this one. Project Remain in all but name intact.She might get support from some Labour MPs if No Deal is the alternative.

It is a shambles its effectively staying in the EU but with no say and paying them massive wad of money for the privilege. Think even I'd prefer no deal than that ! Maybe she's hoping it's gets chucked out in parliament which gives a reason for another referendum, it's the only lunatic ploy I can think of.

Re: Brexit
 

According to unconfirmed sources the cabinet meeting is running at least 2 hours late as there are still up to 20 people yet to speak to in the cabinet.

Re: Brexit
 

Are we supposed to be reassured by the statement that Brexit won’t be as bad as two global conflicts that killed 17 million and up to 80 million people?

Let’s have that on the side of a bus - “Brexit - at least it’s not the Holocaust*".


*remember - this is an aspiration, not a promise...

Re: Brexit
 

The BBC is saying the meeting is unlikely to break up much before 7pm.

Personally, I don't like the sound of the inability of the UK unilaterally to withdraw from the Customs Union, and I think the 'deeper' relationship between the EU and NI won't be a very tasty option for the UDP.

I think those are the two big sticking points that TM may need to take back for re-negotiation.

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

It could be worse...:erm:

Re: Brexit
 

And then she has to talk to the DUP leader apparently.

Re: Brexit
 

It is inevitable it will be another in the long line of instances of democracy being dumped all over from a great height.

Re: Brexit
 

It’s so exciting, folks. For once, little or no disunity in this thread.

Re: Brexit
 

The old girls going to have to watch her blood sugar levels. Diabetics can't be missing meals. I suggest she eats some humble pie and announce a referendum !

Re: Brexit
 

What and have more big lies , more obfuscation and more general bullshitting for a certain period...

Re: Brexit
 

BREAKING: From BBC News Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg: Senior tory tells me Brexiteer anger so high that seems likely there will be a call for no confidence vote tomorrow - letters going in.

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:36 ----------

Latest: There will no statement from Theresa May to the House of Commons tonight. Cabinet meeting still ongoing.

Re: Brexit
 

That would explain why her statement has been postponed.