re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just take a look at the EU - Greek economy, massive unemployment (especially youth) , right wing popularity, growing border tensions, social unrest etc. etc. Regardless of anything else, these are the facts about the club.

---------- Post added at 15:11 ---------- Previous post was at 15:11 ----------

He promised a lot of stuff in February which went the same way...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think this is one of the most unfair arguments you can direct at Remain and it was the same tactic that the Nationalists in Scotland used. I mean what was so good about staying in the Union for the Scots?

If you're arguing for keeping what you have then the arguments will largely be about what you'll lose rather than what you'll gain.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

By the time the 23rd gets here I doubt any section of our society will not have had some threat implied it's **** politics from lazy and inept politicians and I think it has the opposite effect that they hope for. Most of the people I know have not reacted well to remains negative campaigning and it's pushed people more towards leave, out of my social circle of 40 now 27 of us are definite leave, 4 undecided and 9 still for remain but they are less enthusiastic then they were and if remain don't adopt a more positive stance I think 2 of them will swap over just because they loathe being told what to do.

The question of economic consequences if we stay in the EU is not being discussed by anyone on remain really they talk in positives but the few times I've seen them asked about the deep rooted economic problems within the EU they just ignore and change subject.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Everyone says this but the reason politicians use negative campaigning is because it works. People may resent negative campaigning but they don't tend to decide important votes based on protest. Realistically people will believe what they want to believe anyway, you say it's pushed people towards Leave but Leave have had negative campaigning too. Turkey joining the EU being the biggest one. Ian Duncan Smith said your pensions would be cut weeks ago: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/p...ion-funds.html and then there was the 'rape attacks' thing from Farage.

The difference, Vote Leave campaigners would say, is that these are true whereas Remain is false. That isn't then an objection to a negative campaign but one that isn't telling the truth. However Remain would say the same of Leave. That Turkey isn't about the join the EU, that the EU isn't going to take your pension and that we do still control our borders.

If the anti-establishment mood is directed at Remain now then wait until Leave wins. If leaving doesn't fulfil the economic boost they say will come, if wages for the working class don't rise, if the all the extra money for the NHS doesn't materialise or worse there is actually a recession then the reaction will be toxic.

It may be more positive to promise people the earth but that doesn't mean it will come true. Salmond and company promised a Scotland where education would be free, pensions would rise, the NHS would get more money and inequality would be reduced. One year later it turned out the scaremongers were right when the oil priced tanked. Scotland would have been in a financial crisis and certainly would not have been able to afford the utopian vision promised to them by the 'positive' Yes campaign.

People should vote on what they think is best not how much they like the sound of what is being promised.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well according to the latest NCP’s polls the Brexit camp could be set for defeat come the night of the 23rd.

http://www.ncpolitics.uk/uk-eu-referendum/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fair point Damien.

I would say the fear for a lot of brexiteers is that they don't like the way the club is being run.
Where is the " it will be better " positivity from Remain?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

End of EU rule FINALLY in sight: Leave camp take 19-POINT lead as Britons flock to Brexit

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...s-flock-Brexit

it all depends on who's doing the poll and who's paying for it

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The question is how can these polls be so far apart? What we need is an independent one. It's clear so far here that if our poll reflected the mood of the country that 19% figure is not so far fetched.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed, and that poll was commissioned by the Bruges Group, formed in honour of Margaret Thatcher's famous speech in that town, in which she said, "willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community. To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve."

If the arrogant elite in Brussels had heeded her words, we might not be where we are now.

Nevertheless, my point in this instance is simply that their poll is suspiciously in line with their own highly Eurosceptic views. I would be interested to see exactly how their questions were phrased and in which order they were asked.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Market research will always deliver the result the client wants as they frame the questions and the conditions such as where to poll and who to poll that's why i take very little notice of polls and just vote how i want. I still think remain will edge it although i am hearing more and more talk about supporting brexit i just think in those few seconds on their own in the voting booth many will remember all the economic horror stories and vote remain.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Turkey visa move suggested by UK diplomat, papers show



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36510009

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Two weeks ago I'd have agreed with you Rizz, but I no longer think Remain will edge it - I think it is almost impossible to call, but if pushed I think I'd predict Leave may win by a whisker.

If that's the outcome, I further predict we'll be shunted into the EEA without much ado, on the pretext that there is still a strong constituency for Europe within the UK.

All the more reason to keep pushing for a Leave vote. The stronger it is, the stronger the mandate to fully disentangle ourselves from the corpse that is the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Trouble is back in the days before the 60's it was rare to see a non white face.

My mum told me when I was walking under a underpass with her I saw my first black guy, I said in typical 2/3 year old voice "MUMMY WHATS THAT" pointing him out, he passed my mum laughing.

Some silver surfers form that era would like those days back.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why? Are you happy with the EU? If you are, you're the only one.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.

You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.

You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.

You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.

---------- Post added at 17:48 ---------- Previous post was at 17:48 ----------

Came across the above on facebook and found it interesting.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's because the poll isn't really a poll of "leave" or "stay" questions

as far as i can find out this is the poll referred to in the Express,it is asking people what they would prefer to be a member of should we leave the EU and was conducted back in March ,.It would appear that the Express have read into the poll something that isn't really there

http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/site...p_-_tables.pdf

The only other Opinium poll conducted this weekend was published in the Observer today and has completely different results ,probably more realistic

http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/site...i_07_06_16.pdf

---------- Post added at 18:05 ---------- Previous post was at 18:00 ----------

I wouldn't take much notice of that poll ,it's not really an up to date poll and doesn't ask the question of how people will vote on the day

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is currently no promise or assurance we'll be part of the EEA. In fact many Leave people do not support such an option as free movement comes with it.

This is a fact is it?

I am not sure to what extent our relationship with cross-border science will be impacted but many research projects are across borders. The idea we'll just have British scientists doing British research is rubbish, it isn't how the scientific community works.

Then again given Gove's stance on experts we'll probably get rid of funding for those so-called 'scientists' and give the money to the everyday non-elitied people on the street to do research. Frankly I think the British people have had enough of scientists telling us how to best cure diseases anyway. :D

Thus defeating the point many people are voting for no?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes Brian I'm happy with the EU as clearly shown by my posting :rolleyes:, I don't want a remain win but I think it's more likely not personally preferred. Those few seconds in a voting booth can have a dramatic effect on some and they can reverse the decision they originally had when they entered. The constant bombardment of negative economic stories we have all been subjected too for the last few weeks will influence some the only question is will it be enough for them to win.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thanks - that's as I suspected.

The only opinion polls worth giving any attention to are ones that use the actual referendum question and, IMO, weight only loosely for likelihood to vote. Polls that weight heavily towards those certain to vote will inflate the Leave vote. The last thing we need is Leave looking like they're going to walk it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I can agree some of the postings in that dont really make sense to the ones wanting to leave but a lot do

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Very interesting piece by Ambrose Evans Pritchard in the Tele:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...d-nothing-els/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Opinium have disowned it too:

https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/...72050517483522

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

it is an outrageous piece of journalism

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is it EU sponsored? :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's the Daily Express. The only surprising thing is that they haven't had a medium in to tell us what Princess Diana thinks of the EU (and why she backs Brexit).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That comes next week Damien after Cameron's revelation that it's now been confirmed that if the uk votes leave a child will be born with 666 on it's head :D.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It wasn't just black or Asian peoples, but pretty much all immigrants.

The British people at the time did not want large scale immigration yet it was foisted on them first from Ireland, then the Caribbean and then the Indian sub continent.

I once worked with a lady of Asian (Hindu) origins whom I thought had fully integrated into our society. She was born here.... But, during a conversation with her on the day of Diana's death, the subject of nationality and culture came up.

She made clear to me that she had her own culture and was proud of that. I agreed with her but said we were all basically the same even with all our little differences. This seems to anger her as she then went on to itemise (literally writing a list on paper!) of every single difference between us.

I was genuinely shocked. Firstly, that she thought this way and secondly that she was correct, even down to how she had a meal. There were differences and it's those differences that very much shape whom we are, what we feel about ourselves and the wider world.

My first experience of non-British people was when a Pakistani/Bangladeshi elderly couple moved into my road in the 70s. I was a young child and very curious about everything and this couple certainly peaked my interest with their unusual clothes and language.

I'd always said hello to them, but never really talked to them, but on one particular day the curiosity got the better of me. I marched over to them as this 7 year old was on a critical mission...

I went up to the lady and asked her why she always walked 10 feet behind her husband, never at his side. She smiled, but didn't respond. So I asked her again and she said its what we do in our culture. I didn't not understand, then a neighbour of mine who had been watching all this said they were foreign and have different ways. I still didn't understand.

Ever since then I've always been tolerant of different people from different backgrounds, but remembering the words of my former work colleague, people choose and want to be different and retain their own culture.

After all these years, my opinions on things such as immigration and people from different cultures has changed. If people want to come to Britain, they need to become British. I am voting out because that is the only way to ensure this.

Whether you are a silver surfer or not, it is not wrong to expect people in your own country to live by the same norms and standards as you and collectively to think in similar ways for common goals. If everyone has their own culture and does their own thing, how can our British society continue?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

People should integrate, speak English and there shouldn't be segregated areas but people should also be able to retain their own culture as far as is it is compatible with liberal Western society.

The country would be a monotonous bore if people were made to be the same. The examples you gave at the top of his post: the Irish, the Caribbeans and the Indians have given great things to Britain and our society. Food, music and art have all had influences from these immigrant communities. If they were made to comply with what is British and were made to think in 'similar ways' then that would be terrible and destructive to our culture. It would just die a slow death and fail to evolve.

Besides British culture was all for importing different cultural influences long before immigration, i.e Empire.

I don't really think this has a lot to do with Leaving either. Vote Leave haven't really pushed the culture thing and many have even indicated more immigration from outside the EU from places which are less culturally similar than many European nations.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:tu: But what do we do if they don't want to? If they're invited here, allowed to come or even given asylum and still don't want to integrate? We're a pretty tolerant nation but many people want to take advantage of that whilst being themselves intolerant, unwilling to mix or accept our ways. That's the problem.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Up until recently, I would have fully agreed with you.

But if you add up one little difference to another, to another etc, then you get a lot of differences.

Yes, we have different foods, arts, music from all over. But British people do not know our own food, arts, music etc now.

Outside influences are fine, enrichment is fine as long as it does not become a flood which it has. That is what destructive to our culture and why it is dying a slow death. So much so, that most people don't even realise it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well I am not sure what we can actually do. Above my skill set to work on that kind of problem. :D

Maybe it depends how we manage it. Literally everything from where those granted asylum are placed, the communities structures around them, free English lessons and so on. We shouldn't underestimate the value to people of keeping elements of their own culture though. If I am abroad for more than a week I need to find proper tea and a fry-up pretty quickly. :dunce:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Simple, they should be chucked out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So what? As long as they're not harming anyone then good luck to them. Again people being different is far more interesting than people being the same.


Our culture is not weak enough to get overridden so easily. Harry Potter is one of the most successful books and film franchises in the world, from a British writer, continuing a British trend of excellent children's writing. We still produce many of the world's biggest pop and rock acts. We have many excellent actors and actresses working on international franchises. The newest Star Wars has two British actors in the lead roles (one of whom is the British born son of Nigerian immigrants)! and it's filmed here! with a largely British production staff!

We continue to have a massively successful film, music and literature industry which is only made more impressive by our relatively small size.

I do not want to live in a Britain where I have to travel more than 5 miles to find a chicken madras.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Should the British "ex-pats" be chucked out of Spain? Your logic would say yes?

There is a whiff of double standards here: when the British are abroad everyone should speak English but when people come here, different matter it seems ...

---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:22 ----------

Is Boris planning a coup post Brexit?

Boris Johnson furiously denies plotting against David Cameron after being caught asking about potential rebels

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Leaving the EU is hardly likely to cause that to happen. ;)

The scale of the numbers and the pressure that puts on society is what's creating the issue, making the influx so much more noticeable and making it easier for migrants not to integrate. The EU is only part of that issue however.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think for people who obey the law, pay their taxes, speak English etc, then I would be uneasy about any change of policy against them.

But taking Norman Tebbit's cricket test, as an example and I don't know how old you are or if you know what I am talking about. (Norman Tebbit, a former Conservative politician, questioned the allegiances of people from foreign origins if they support a country other than a UK one at cricket.)

If someone does support a sports team (assuming they follow sports at all) and its not a UK one, how can we truly say that person is British and integrated into our society when they support a foreign team?

---------- Post added at 23:13 ---------- Previous post was at 23:06 ----------

This is a very good example, actually.

I once considered living in Spain, I love it there, speak a bit of the language and like many aspects of the culture, but not all.... and one aspect I especially didn't like was the British ex pats.

Many of the ex pats do not integrate and make it very clear they will never integrate into Spanish society. You see British/English flags everywhere in some parts of Spain (Benidorm and the like) and its horrible. The Germans are no better in "their" areas.

If I were the Spanish, I would throw them out, yes. If you live in someone's else's country you live by their standards and customs.

---------- Post added at 23:30 ---------- Previous post was at 23:13 ----------

It's not just purely numbers though.

It is whether people who come from a different country, can integrate into our society. In many cases the answer is yes, but more worrying, it is the children and grandchildren of those immigrants who are born here is where the problems lie. This has been brewing for a very long time.

So, it's not just a numbers issue, as you say though greater numbers to highlight things more.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How does that work for those that come here from their country have kids and they have kids yet they still don't class this as home and live by the rules of their culture despite being 3 generations into British Society?

It gets me if there is a problem in the Asian community and you then hear the chief of police say we will speak to the Asian community leaders and work with them the best we can. You only have to look at the west yorkshire website for wanted and in court or sentenced pictures and they are of a foreign background and a lot of the organised child abuse rings are all usually foreign in nature.

I live in Leeds so you'll see Harehills has been taken over by every other nationality from shops and food even loads of sikh temples, jewish a lot of the schools around there are mainly foreign nationals

While I'm all for a mixture of their own home they have taken over the whole area and you'll find a generation of them that were born here still don't class themselves as british and will segregate themselves from your society and always refer to their own country despite only ever visiting the place for a holiday.

So I can see why some see it as an issue even myself working in the NHS I see some of them can't speak english or refuse despite being over here for 20 years

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If we have no other criteria on entering this country it should be a good standard of the English language written and spoken and if you can't or don't want too cya stay where you are. In Leicester there is an issue with certain Asian groups came over in the seventies and still do not regard the uk as home in any meaningful way many do not speak English and will not interact with non Asian people. As a regular visitor to the Royal infirmary I am routinely annoyed at the behaviour and conduct of some Asians and before anyone says no other groups do not do the same thing it is an exclusively Asian tactic of mobbing the doctors and nurses to get their friends and family seen before anyone else.

There is a problem in this country and I do think our tolerance has been abused and it has to stop before something like the bhp cash in on it again and a very bad situation arises.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So does that mean all those from the UK that have retired or moved to Europe should be able to speak and write in the netive language of that country?

~I~f we leave the EU should all those people be made to come back to the UK if they can't?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think at least there should be enough written and spoken language in order to have some form of communication no matter who the person is and where they are.

I think that lessons on the culture and language should be free and on offer when going to live in that country?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Or blame the EU for maddy disappearing or for the weather

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes of course it means Brits abroad should learn the language of a country they plan to live in I don't understand why people want to move to Spain and not learn the language half the fun of new places is interacting with the locals bit stupid not to be able to speak their language.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One of Cameron’s biggest donors WITHDRAWS support over his ‘IRRESPONSIBLE’ EU campaign

Edi Truell, who has donated more than £270,000 since 2010, is also reportedly considering quitting the Tory party altogether after Mr Cameron’s “unfair” scaremongering about a Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679...-Brexit-Remain

lets not pretend you don't read the express its clear you know too much about it not to be reading it .


From project fear to project panic: Embattled PM today hands over Remain campaign to Gordon Brown and Jeremy Corbyn after minister accuses him of trying to SCARE pensioners

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-Brexit.html

FLASH GORDON TO THE RESCUE

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Someone knows something. Betting on Remain is collapsing this morning as is Sterling. :erm:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My on-call is paid in US Dollars, so excellent. :tu:

(Jesting before people grumble..)

I can't say I'm excited by wheeling out Gordon Brown. This seems to open up a massive attack vector on Leave's primary angle of immigration. Gillian Duffy anyone?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I guess Brown felt that someone from Labour had to try and do something? Corbyn is now an official joke (if he wasn't before) as the Labour Leader. If you are a Leader then Lead or give the job to someone to have a go ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Currency always falls on uncertainty, it's really no big news.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's up to the countries where they are. But if they can't speak the language of that country, how can they ever integrate?

When British ex pats in Spain fall ill, as they do as many of them are retired, they expect Spanish doctors and nurses and hospital receptionists and pharmacists and etc etc to speak English.... (I've seen this first hand) If I were Spanish I would tell the lot of them to sod off.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well I was making a general point about culture. Horizon's comments extend beyond the EU issue.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One in five FTSE 100 chairmen backs Brexit, poll says

Brexit may strike fear into the hearts of some prominent business leaders, but a poll of FTSE 100 chairmen shows that one in five boardroom bosses intend to vote leave next week.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...xit-poll-says/

---------- Post added at 12:03 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

The last thing Leave need is Gordon Brown getting involved. Didn't he influence the Scottish referendum with his promises? Wasn't he and Blair who messed up the country?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

and I was making a joke. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think one of the EU hierarchy's unstated aims of free movement of labour across the EU, is harmonisation of cultures; i.e. watering down of the individual Nation state's culture.

Cultural harmonisation makes political harmonisation easier.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The pound has just spiked!

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2016/06/8.png

Good news for Remain about to hit?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Hmm so much for their doom and gloom stories.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Remain also recovering on Betfair: http://politicalodds.bet/eu-referendum

AGGGHHHH

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not a lot of difference since the referendum start.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed, but anyone who has been to "Europe" knows, you don't need the EU to force this.

20 years ago, long before the euro, I was in Germany on the banks of where the River Rhine met the River Moselle. And it was fascinating to watch all the boats on the rivers going up and down with flags from different countries on them. You don't get that on the Thames.

Shortly after that I had trips to the border areas between Germany and France, and Holland and Belgium, and it was noticeable how harmonised things were then. At least in border areas. Everyone spoke German, French, Dutch and English and several currencies were accepted in shops and cafes.

If people want their countries to merge together that is their decision and border areas have been closely linked for many years. But
once you move away from border areas then larger cultural, architectural, language and other differences become apparent.

The EU should not force things and like uncontrolled immigration, it will have a devastating long term effect on us all.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Britain has had influence from across the water for hundreds of years and it hasn't diminished our culture so far. Look how many of our words have French roots or French words with English roots or all words with Latin roots and so on. Chips are Belgian, Tea is Chinese and the Queen descends from Germans. The blending of other cultures happened long before the EU and it's great that it did. Some of the most British things ever are things we took from elsewhere.

If it wasn't for our ability to take things from other culture and make it our own we wouldn't have fish and chips, tea or most of the stuff in the British Museum. :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes, you don't need to force this. It happens naturally with the increasing number of migrants; a policy central to the EU. Our distinctive British culture will be diminished at a faster rate because of the EU freedom of movement. All I'm saying is that the EU hierarchy are well aware of this aspect and see it as part of the plan.

I have no problem with immigration from other countries; as pointed out, we can gain from it. but it needs to be measured and controlled by a British Government.

Brexit are not for stopping immigration but simply for having control over it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's a big difference between us taking foreign things and making them our own and cultural dilution from mass immigration.

Like you, I used to believe in the blending theory as well. I don't now because its rubbish. There's no blending, just eventual replacement. Ask the Picts, Celts etc how blended they feel?

---------- Post added at 16:38 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------

Actually, I disagree on your last point. I think the underlying reason why most people are voting for Brexit is to stop immigration beyond a select few whom we invite.

The EU will be long gone before it gets to a point where free movement eliminates national identity. Just wait and see what happens when the German taxpayers are told they need to bail out Greece again... which is why we need to leave the EU right now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

English is a foreign language brought to these islands by all the immigrant English. We are seeking reparations. Thanks for asking :).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I was thinking that for the last few days when the England "fans" were singing "You would all be Krauts if it wasn't for us" and "F**k off Europe we're voting out". I was thinking what a cultured nation we are.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm not getting your point here. I fully understand, though, the origins of the English language.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You asked how Celts felt about immigrants.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Every nation has its idiots and far worse as we know so why would you be basing you opinion of our 'nation' on a relatively few drunk idiots? Isn't that as ridiculous as basing an opinion of all Muslims on ISIS? :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If we vote out I take it the minority who seem to dislike the uk will have the courage of their convictions and leave as well as lately I've seen a few on different forums who have such a low opinion of the uk and it's citizens taking any opportunity to attack the uk pretty sad.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes it's odd how they choose to remain in a place which is anything from workshy to racist and utterly xenophobic maybe they see it as their calling or maybe, just maybe, we're not all really as bad as their hyperbole would suggest... :)

If not, maybe it's liberal brainwashing designed to make them feel better by responding to what they perceive as intolerant behaviour and/or stereotyping by resorting to the very same things. We've just had someone here who reckons the small proportion of drunk idiots who were responsible for some of the trouble in Marseille are living proof that we're an uncultured nation. Bizarre eh?...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36515213

Just been reading that both of the England 'fans' convicted of causing trouble have been banned from France for 2 years. I'd be interested to know how that's going to work in the absence of border checks between Schengen nations. If there are no border checks between Schengen states, presumably people like these guys would be free to fly to any neighbouring EU country and then just cross the border into France unchecked. :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

well there are those who think we are incapable of surviving outside of the EU .i imagine they will pack their bags and go live with their comrades over the water no point in them staying here if we are doomed .

---------- Post added at 17:22 ---------- Previous post was at 17:20 ----------

lets wait till after the England Wales punch u er match before we get too high up in the saddle ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Leave beginning to run away with it: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...lls?CMP=twt_gu

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well they're not here - it's got a bit closer than the original poll. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm cautious on polls. The only thing I will believe is the result.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Gordon Brown did an outstanding job it seems. Odds on leave have further shortened today.

However, I still believe that we will end up remaining, due largely to the youth vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed l am too as there is a lot of voter volatility out and as we all know with the last general election when people said one thing and then do exactly the opposite.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oh, ok. I was actually being slightly flippant, as there is no such things as the Celts. The term was invented about 300 years ago, I think, to describe pre-Roman peoples of Britain.

As for your point on the English language being foreign, it absolutely is not!

It's very much a creation of this island using influences from Danish, German and French to name a few, but very much a product of here. Otherwise if it were say German, then the Germans would be speaking the same language as us.

---------- Post added at 17:45 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

Got to love Gordy. :D

I'm concerned with the youth vote too. They seem more concerned about roaming charges than questions of sovereignty.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yup. Roaming charges and ability to get hammered on the cheap in Benidorm seem to be top of many's priorities going by the talk shows I've listened to.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Also the economic argument will hold a lot of sway with young people. Many of whom entered work in the aftermath of 2008. For years the job market was very slow and so were wages, they lived the example of what a slow or even receding economy can do for their prospects.

They are probably less inclined to risk adding more uncertainty than those older voters.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yup, Leave 53, Remain 47. And worth pointing out that Graun/ICM are getting the same scores from both phone and online polling.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I listed my pros and cons of leaving the EU the other day. And as I said, there are genuine concerns of leaving the EU, not less a global meltdown which I think will happen upon Brexit.

I suppose if I were 20 years younger I would I be thinking more short term too.

If you're young and there is a possibility of another severe recession lasting several years, that's a long time to a young person. They don't have the depth of experience and years to see beyond.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The polls in that election were a lot closer I believe.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

would that be the young people who can't get work due to an ever expanding eu workforce taking all the unskilled jobs .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If there's a recession even remain say it will be a mini recession and only last 2 quarters.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No the situation has considerably improved in recent years.

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2008 and it's aftermath is what caused the problem. The economy isn't some conspiracy from elitist bankers, it has real ramifications for people.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The only poll which matters is the one on June 23rd and not matter what the result let's hope there's an outbreak of common sense in the EU. If we leave and chaos ensues it'll be because our glorious leaders chose that course. Whether we're in or out we really ought to want to make the situation we're left with work rather than ploughing on regardless with project single state or mutually cutting off noses to spite faces. If the EU can't cope with this situation it really doesn't say much for its long term future.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The polls said it was close all the way up to the election but that did not tally with the result come election night so personally l would be very wary.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

in reality our local youngsters can't get work because there not polish
nice wiggly line all though i fear it won't put food on the table here in the real word .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The 'wiggly' line is how many people are employed or not. Youth unemployment is down dramatically from 2008 but the economy impacts on jobs.

This is what is so frustrating about Brexit. There are legitimate concerns that you all dismiss as not being in the 'real world', unemployment statistics aren't real, the experts aren't real. The only thing that is real is assertions based on 'common sense' without any evidence.

That isn't to say there will be an economic hit but if there is then people will be harmed by that. The economy is a real thing. That is what is concerned about it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

if you don't have a job/ don't have your own home /can't afford to start a family, get no help from the state and feel abandoned what exactly do you have to lose from exiting this failed experiment .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And the magic fairy dust from Brexit is going to fix all this, is it?

If we vote out, are we going to expel all the foreign workers who are "stealing" all these jobs?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i was actually pointing out the younger generation has nothing to lose because the have nothing to start with ,perhaps a liberal dousing in remain in the gutter dust might make it all go away .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is this kind of misinformation, fuelled by the right wing media, that will win the critical votes .. :dunce:

Why would the Polish worker gets the job instead of the deserving "British" one?

Maybe they:

- work harder?
- do a better job?
- are willing to accept the pay that the BRITISH employer sets?
- are more punctual?

who knows ..

In the Brexit Nirvana, of course these "youngsters" will gleefully take the jobs that the poor old Poles are no longer able to do, won't they? The jobs they currently are choosing not to compete for ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

in the remain nirvana they are just the lost generation abandoned for a failed social experiment .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Young people do have something to lose. Economy slows > jobs reduce.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You want to upgrade from reading the Express. Try the Beano...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

no jobs minus some jobs still = no jobs' if you have no job and depend on the kindness of family for a roof over your head and food on your plate/clothes on your back your not affected by the economy as your not in it .

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:42 ----------

i think it would just go over your head if i posted from it .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But there are jobs. Employment is relatively low. If the economy slows the amount of jobs decrease.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

lets have a go at making employment relatively high and loose the negativity that if hanging around your neck is weighing us all down try a good dose of when the economy grows .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's no way they could know that, but if a Brexit does trigger a global meltdown it will last longer than six months.

There's lots of risks out there, Greece being an obvious one, but the French and German banking system is not as healthy as it may seem.

China is a nuclear financial bomb waiting to explode. Who can tell how healthy their banking and economic system is when their whole system is so corrupt?

There are a lot of unknowns, but I believe there are a lot of unknowns by staying in the EU and I vote out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If the remain side does win, in a few years time, I think there could be a lot of people wishing that they had read the Express.

The Express, to say the least, can be sensationalist, but leaving that aside, there is truth behind many of the things they say. After all, much of it lines up with the stated aims of the hierarchy behind the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I meant unemployment is relatively low obviously. Slowly down the economy would only increase it though. People seem to think what happens with the economy is divorced from day to day life but it isn't.