Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.techradar.com/news/intern...ted-ads-315311

---------- Post added at 10:05 ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 ----------

its interesting reading the ad network spin on this, they might be doing us a favour in that they are getting it wrong but convincing the other ad networks they might be in trouble too.

http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=conWebDoc.18667

...
Several big name companies have signed up to use Phorm's technology, which monitors a user's browsing history.

Both commercial companies and social networking sites are known to use a similar system.

However, critics have said such technology infringes privacy laws by using users' data for commercial gain.
..."

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 ----------

ohh its hit which?

http://www.which.co.uk/reports_and_c...557_136309.jsp

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just read the full interview with Kent on TechRader (here) and he just doesn't like to answer some questions he doesn't like and instead just reiterates the same prepared crap, he ought to be in politics. Regardless of what he says I get a feeling he realises he's in really hot water over interception.

Oh and Kent when you say "Our aim is to continue to educate people on our system in order to reassure the small minority who have expressed concerns that they can trust our technology to safeguard their privacy." I can reassure you that the 'small minority' is everybody who's heard of your system, it's growing in number and the more we learn about Phorm the more concerned we become.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I particularly like the part of his answer where he says that Phorm obtain user consent for interception.

My question to Kent: I have no intention of giving my consent for you to intercept my data, and I will be blocking all connections to your cookie server domains as well. So that being the case, just how do you propose to determine that I have "opted out" without intercepting at least some of my data?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Same old same old

Look, PhormTeam - it's simple. If your technology is the leap forward that you claim then you should have no trouble making it strictly opt-in. Two distinct routes through my ISP, Phorm and regular.

You can't do it simply because you have sold your customers the dream of making a captive audience out of more or less everyone in the UK with a BB connection. Failure to deliver means they will leave in droves. Without the captive audience you are just another spyware company touting for business.

Repeating the same speech and answering only "approved" questions convinces no-one. You are a spyware vendor who happened to work out that putting your wares into exchanges where we can't remove it would solve all your problems. Welcome to the real world.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

see this thread for anti-Phorm banners and sigs : http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...opic.php?384.0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Brilliant! Feel free to use my Philth graphic

<---- Here

If anybody wants it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nice! :cool:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is something else I'd like Phorm to supply - the surveys they keep going on about. I bet the question "would you like all your web activity monitored" never came up :p:

Come on Phorm supply us with the questionnaires, the (anonymous) results, anything so they can be peer reviewed to their relevance to your system.

Maybe we could formulate a questionnaire to survey whether people want this system.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, he did study politics...

Kent attended St Paul's School, London and holds a Bachelor's degree in Politics from Princeton University.

http://www.phorm.com/about/exec_ertugrul.php

---------- Post added at 12:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 ----------

Of surveys, as we all know - If you want the "right" answer one needs only ask the right question...

With Phorm however, asking any question of them will result in only replies which are favourable to themself... hmmm... they think we don't realise that...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I notice that he doesn't mention 121Media a known adware/spyware/rootkit company here. Open and honest? My Ar*e!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Seems fine popper, I would have perhaps indicated that using DPI to read your traffic data is still "processing" "personal and sensitive personal information" and therefore the IC has a duty to enforce DPA 1998 as well as PECR.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

I would love to be a fly at ICO and the Home Office at the moment. I expect they are very carefully trying to figure out how to approach the illegal trials of 2006/2007.

IC: "Well Kent, we have tried very hard to support your technology but the public backlash is unusually well informed on the legal issues revolving around this technology so we need to be seen as doing our job."

Kent: "Yes Richard I can understand that but as I have said, the laws were not designed to stop legitimate business activities."

HO: "The reason we have called you in today Kent is we need to find a method of damage reduction with regards to these trials you did in 2006/2007. Unfortunately this is going to be difficult given the news today that you trialled several hundreds of thousand of users in 2007; information based from your own corporate communications posted on your own website. If it was just the odd member of the public calling for action we could tie it up in red tape but with the likes of ORG and FIPR batting for the consumers and all the negative press from major publishers we just can't see a way out."

Kent: "Well I am not sure what to say there; clearly we had no knowledge that BT were going to use the technology in a manner which contravenes UK law, so I feel that your efforts should be concentrated on BT."

IC: "That is difficult as well, Patricia Hewitt is on the board of directors at BT so we have to try and keep the government happy on this and be careful not to introduce yet another scandal with regards government personnel and privacy issues."

Kent: "Well HO, it would seem that only your office can initiate proceedings under RIPA, surely you can just delay it long enough that people forget?"

HO & IC in unison: "We will see what we can do. At worst it is going to cost you a couple of million in fines, so we will find a suitable outcome in time."

Kent: "Can you issue a gag order on Alexander Hanff to stop him publishing his dissertation about the 2006/2007 trials?"

HO: "I'm sorry, I can't do that Kent. I will phone the chancellor at his University and see if they have any way to suppress the dissertation with academic red tape, but I can't promise anything."

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap::LOL: cheered up an otherwise very dull day.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

An interesting analogy between GM Crops and Phorm!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...eed=technology

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So we have a government which, for reasons best known to itself isn't keen on investigating breaches of RIPA. Yet we have a local council quite happy to use RIPA to spy on people making school applications!

At the risk of getting political I have commented elsewhere about how this country is heading towards Gordongrad.

Here's a definition of a new word that has emerged from these particular events:

Inphorm: v, To state as facts views which are based on questionable interpretations of language. To amend already accepted factual articles, removing known facts as part of the amendment process.

Examples: "We have been inphormed that neutral opinion means yes." "I see the Phorm Wikipedia entry got inphormed the other day." "If you mention a company then you are inphorming people that you endorse it."

---------- Post added at 14:13 ---------- Previous post was at 13:59 ----------

What a pity Charles doesn't leave an option to make comments.

Where are the "exaggerated claims" from this forum and The Register? I believe along with many others that Phorm is illegal under RIPA and must be investigated. Nothing exaggerated there. I believe along with many others that BT and Phorm must be bought to book for the secret trials in 2006 and 2007 which broke the Data Protection Act, European Privacy Regulations and RIPA. Where is the exaggeration there? Phorm say they are confident they are legal and have QC opinion (from a hitherto unnamed QC) to confirm that.

Bring on the full legal investigation. Once the full legal investigation has taken its unhindered course I may revise my opinions. Until then I won't.

I believe that Phorm's PR offensive on the web has been based around spin, obstructive and manipulative language. That reflects poorly on a company which as we already know has a murky history. How you behave influences what people think of you. The Guardian's rejection was telling - Phorm didn't fit with their business values. An ethical, trustworthy organisation? Not what The Guardian think.

Charles hasn't defined what he thinks a proper opt-in (and thus an opt-out) would be. That suggests he's either misunderstood things or has just omitted to mention just why so many people are unhappy about Phorm.

MY DATA GOES NOWHERE NEAR PHORM'S SYTEMS

The battle is far from over. Until a full legal investigation happens and (ideally) Phorm are told they are illegal under RIPA this issue may well continue to rumble on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm pleased you spotted the 'risk' -- Poole council is run by Conservatives (the 'law'n'order brigade) with support from privacy-loving LibDems. Not a single Gordongrad-ite in sight!

Let's keep party politics out of the discussions, eh?
;)

Poole is a Unitary Council with 42 Councillors elected across 16 wards in the Borough. Elections take place every 4 years, the last local elections were in May 2007.
Poole's Council Leader is Councillor Brian Leverett who also leads the Cabinet. The Council is made up of 25 Conservative and 17 Liberal Democrat councillors.

(From the Borough of Poole website)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excellent Alexander! You forgot one thing though:

HO: "Someone fix me a large one, I have to report back to Jonathan".

(Phone rings)

MI5 receptionist: (silence)

HO: "Security code Beta Tango Virgin".

MI5 receptionist: "Transferring you to Johnathan Evans now sir".

(click) (click)

JE: "Good news I hope?"

HO: "Umm . . .'fraid not JE . . ."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is still a fundamental difference here. There are procedures that Poole council etc. can go through to do this. You may not like it, but that is the Law as it stands.

What Phorm is doing is not in my opinion legal, and thus very different!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

May I also add that RIPA does have its weaknesses - in this case allowing a local council employee (unelected, often unanswerable to the public) to use terrorist level surveillance on what seem to me to be non-terrorists.

Whether I like it or not due process was followed and the letter of the law obeyed. I haven't seen too much of that with Phorm and BT.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Whilst I agree with this, we do have a government that seems to be sitting on it's hands over the Phorm issue. At best it's because it's waiting to see which way the wind blows with Joe public.

The government does not care what people like us think, we don't represent many votes (remember IR35?).

But there are local elections coming up and regardless of how people intend to vote, I hope when the activists start appearing on the doorstep, that they are told that action over Phorm will influence our vote.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just got a reply from Virgin

interesting bits below:

So they HAVE signed an agreement with Phorm.

and

Interesting!!!? First I've heard anything from Virgin since I complained weeks ago!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wow finally someone other than myself has included PECR s6 in relation to this service. Maybe I should start charging people like VM and ICO for using my paper to interpret PECR. Note how there is still no mention of PECR s8 and s27 though!

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sounds a lot like the statement read to me over the phone on Monday. Damn, I should have asked for that in writing! (I'll spare the TMI but I was just out of the shower).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe because like me many have already moved the phone back to BT and moved BB away from VM. ~This move proved benificial for me since while with VM my connection was 4meg but I had requested it moved to the 2 for £20 which would give me 2 meg. I am now connected on 6meg on training period and looking like I will be 6.5meg or 7meg with more upload than I had with VM.

Saying that I would't stay with any ISP that deploys phorm or any system like phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/...152#post127152

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nice one :LOL::clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bye guys - off on holiday now for a week. To a place with no internet! Shock - do they still exist!!!!

I'm gonna miss this - I was getting into it. I'll have a lot of posts to read when I get back.

At least Kent and his posse cant see what I am up to for the next few days.... he he!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Outer Mongolia? Northern Siberia?

Have a good one, we'll hold the fort while you're away!

Ali.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone here involved in the on-line games community?

I know nothing about it other than it is a big group of internet users who probably frequent their own forums.

Does anyone know where the main forums are and if Phorm has been raised in them?

Might be worth hitting them, with links to inphormationdesk and the Downing Street petition.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bit late for that guys - did you think we had forgotten you? Your silence on the issue simply appears as "lets wait and see what happens to BT" Not exactly the assurance we have been waiting for.

And how exactly can we be assured that this will be the case. Do we get periodic, independent assessment? Or perhaps you want us to simply take you at your word? I have the same trust in VM as I do in BT.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

www.thesgl.com
www.enemydown.co.uk
http://www.devotii.com/
http://www.tnwagroup.com/
Also no electronic sports gaming community would go without sometime booking a HLTV for big games but his company is UK but then again you will get larger coverage. http://www.hltv.org/?pageid=15

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Florence. I shall have a look and do some posting and, I expect, fell very old!;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just had a reporter from BBC Click on the phone to me - because of the email I sent off.

They are doing a report on Phorm, and sounds like they may be at the meeting next week. Wish I wasn't going on hols now!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hope you enjoy your holiday! Where are you going that has no internet? Sounds like something I could do with - cold turkey sans net!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a quick update on the article.

I have just finished the DPA and will (after a cup of coffee) be starting on Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 in the next hour. Once I complete that section I only have the Council of Europe's Convention on Cybercrime and my conclusion to write.

I was hoping to have finished already but I had some family matters to deal with earlier today which delayed my schedule a little. I am still confident I will have the first draft finished today (or early hours of tomorrow morning at the latest).

I have uploaded the updated version but be aware I haven't spell checked or proof read it properly yet so there may be some silly errors.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technolog...ish_phorm.html

In the comments: A Possibility?

Webwise works by having a layer 7 switch intercept and impersonate the client and server requests on the network: -

You browse to a secure site

The switch takes this request and passes it to the site as its own, adding the Webwise cookie.

When the site responds with its public encryption key, the switch strips the public key for the site out, adds its own public key and forwards the request to you.

Even when you exchange a private key, the switch will also intercept this, (seeing it already has the public key) create its own private key and use its key to communicate with your 'secure' website.

Meanwhile, all this decrypted data is being forwarded into Webwise for 'processing'. This is the fatal flaw with SSL.

If your ISP or your network admin wants to 'snoop' on your browsing, they can.

Bear in mind that you can send certificates in the post on a USB stick, however, header information is NOT encrypted - so they can still see which sites you are visiting, even if they can't decrypt the traffic being sent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sounds like the classic "Man in the Middle" attack to me and yes not only possible but heavily documented and researched by security professionals and academics around the world.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've tried posting there in the last hour and it fell over. The BBC has admitted to some technical problems with posting to it's blogs. It may work for you though.

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

So should we all be asking our banks to do so? Perhaps VM should send us one for their webmail site? Just a thought.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

"Home Secretary Jacqui Smith will be in Downing Street on 17 April for a live webchat from 14:00 BST.

* Log in and post your question

Jacqui will take questions on her remit as Home Secretary with a focus on the Border Agency and the neighbourhood policing teams operating in your area."

Perhaps there are some other questions to answer as well?

http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page15259.asp

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My Question:

Why has the Home Secretary failed to initiate a criminal investigation of the covert trials BT ran to test the new advertising technology from Phorm Inc. in 2006/2007; given that the trials contravened:
Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (s1)
Computer Misuse Act 1990(s3)
Fraud Act 2006 (s2)
Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988 (s107 (criminal infringement))

Does the Home Secretary believe that large corporate entities are immune and above criminal law?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If enough of us visit and log a question then we may well get a response. I've logged a question there.

The BBC blog sites have been almost unusable for me recently. Wonder if it's something to do with me being a Linux user?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Probably all those Wii owners using iPlayer and eating up all the BBC's bandwidth ;)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 22:05 ---------- Previous post was at 22:03 ----------

Anyway, Copyright section is now completed. Just the Council of Europe's Convention on Cybercrime and my conclusion to go :) Its been a long haul and I fear I will never be able to remove the OPSI logo from my retinas, but hopefully it has been worth it, I know it has for me.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok guys I couldn’t resist posting on this blog.
Could someone please explain the point of this stupid p.r. stunt next Tuesday or can’t Bent Kent get it into his tiny little rootkit yet that it’s all over now? I do understand he may challenge our law but on what grounds? There are none.
You see there was previously no way even via ssl encryptions, browser privacy settings or opting out of it to block the intrusions entirely. Phorm could at anytime read anything it so chose to no matter how hard you fought against it therefore the law has ruled against him from setting up this elaborate scam as he’d planned. Mr. Erty Gerty thought he could buy the law out in this country but has learned a hard lesson in doing so, a £32million lesson no less and he’s dropped Bt fairly and squarely into the cess pit with himself in doing so.
Seriously now, would someone please enlighten me as to where the legal challenge is and why is this stupid idiot orchestrating these silly p.r. stunts next week?
I believe there is more to this thing than we’re being told.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding Phorm as a "man in the middle" and able to see even https sites if they choose to.
Today I received in the post from Nationwide (whom I bank with), a battery powered card reader, that's not connected to my pc in anyway.

What happens is, I log in as usual to their secure site, select the third party I want to send a payment to, Nationwide then asks me to insert my debit card into the reader, which asks for the "atm" pin, then asks for the ref. no.that Nationwide gives me, plus the amount to pay.

Still with me? The reader gives me an eight digit number to enter on the website, and after confirming, the payment goes through.

So... it seems that Nationwide no longer, implicitly trusts https and ssl encryption, and has inserted an extra layer. I wonder if Phorm are the trigger for this, or just the (what seems to be), trend towards profiling of users via traffic interception. Does anyone know of other banks making similar moves?

Richard

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sure everyone who cares about their privacy appreciates your efforts.

Thank you :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Seconded. I salute you, sir.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So now you will be sending the chip data, your pin and your on line banking pin to nationwide via the Phorm profiler.
When your card gets cloned and Nationwide turn around and say it is your loss as they knew the PIN can you go back to them and highlight that Phorm could have snooped it so Chip and Pin is no longer secure. I would have thought an RSA SecureID key would be more secure than this approach in many respects. Now you have a token and two shared secrets, both have alternate uses wheras with a SecureID you would still have a token and a secret, not much less secure and well the token cannot be cloned and put in an ATM or used to fill the car up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Given that the meeting involves 80/20, I suspect it's all part of the privacy impact statement. Having said that, i'm sure they want to try to trip people up, probably over the legalities. They will certainly have something up their sleeves.

One thing that I think is likely to happen is, when challenging over the legal side, the anti-phorm challenger will be asked 'Are you a lawyer?'.

The Phorm side will then have someone stand up and say 'I'm a QC and I say you are wrong because ...'

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Richard,

Barclays have a similar scheme which they call PINSentry, you insert your card into the calculator like device and it gives you an 8 digit number to enter when logging into the online banking section, or if you're making a payment to someone new. I'm sure it's a similar thing to the nationwide one.

The PINSentry info is here http://www.barclays.co.uk/pinsentry/

I read somewhere that HSBC have plans for something similar too

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@SMHarman
No, I don't think so, the card reader is not connected to anything, "chip & pin" just identifies me to the reader, I'm assuming the eight digit code is a form of encryption generated by the reader.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Alex :)

Any self respecting Wii owner won't be bothering with Iplayer since Mario Kart was released today (and it's excellent) :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Whoops missed that bit about not connected to the PC in any way and yes wow reading it properly this time, what a palava, almost easier to write a cheque and put it in the post or go to the local branch.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I also thought about this and questioned it here #2176 though I had initially forgotten about certification. After subsequent reading, including this, I have come to the conclusion that using this deep packet equipment would make a 'man-in-the-middle' attack possible. Now if someone working for Phorm were not trustworthy...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting that online payments have cropped up. The new banking code takes a lot of the responsibility off the banks and places it firmly on the shoulders of the public with regards to privacy and security.

Under the new code customers will be liable for identity theft/fraud if they do not have:

Upto date Anti-Virus
Upto date firewall
Upto date OS patches

And a whole bunch of other things. I can't wait for the day when someone tries to put in a fraud claim and the Bank say "Sorry but you use a Phorm enabled ISP therefore you have not taken adequate measures to protect your privacy and as such are liable for any losses as a result of the fraud."

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh forget the 80/20 confusion we know Bent Kent owns them, haaa..

Sorry I still cannot see and legal grounds to challenge the law. He may try to appeal the decision under'conflict of law' but he needs to carefully choose a sound solid law that allows him to access into millions of pcs in the uk by means of an opt out clause or similar and this does not exist. He could use American law under 'conflict of law' and quote the canspam act or something else, this is the only legal means he has..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes it is a pain in the ass but it is more secure...might even stop Phorm snooping :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@Ravenheart
I suppose all this does then, is establish that you have the "physical" card in your posession and not just the numbers.

Richard.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This has been a concern of mine since this whole Phorm thing came to light, but I've not really known how best to describe it.

As there would be another tier between user and ISP/bank on a phorm enabled ISP the risk of fraud increses increases, in the event of a substantial increase of fraud on a Phorm enabled ISP could the ISP/Phorm be held accountable?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is the "Thick" end of the wedge, the things they could do. We don't trust them, so we think they might. I agree.

We do need to be careful though about how we challenge them now.

We need to differentiate, particulary at the meeting, between this (what they could do) and what the have done and are known to be planning.

Otherwise they will lump all accusations into the same category of "no evidence".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I must admit when Barclays first said they were introducing it, there was loads of complaints about people not getting the readers or their old debit cards not working in them so they were unable to log into their online banking.

having the little reader isn't too much of a problem, and with the whole privacy debate that the Phorm issue has raised I'm actually pleased that I've got this extra layer of security available.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What people need to remember is we only have Phorm's word on how they are going to use the technology and unfortunately that word is tainted not just by their history in Spyware, not just by the unethical behaviour they have displayed in the name of PR (misquoting R Clayton, wikifiddling), not just by the lie they told regarding Privacy International BUT also their patent application and the entry on the ICO data register.

Make no mistake, this technology CAN be used very easily to do anything they want to and with your http traffic (and through man in the middle attacks even https) and the reality is, it would be very very difficult to detect and even more difficult to prove if done correctly.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 23:17 ---------- Previous post was at 23:04 ----------

I wonder if packets which Phorm phiddle with could now be classified as malphormed packets?

We should come up with a new category for companies like Phorm akin to the phrase used for child abusers. From this point forward I classify Phorm and related technologies as "Privacy Fiddlers"

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh before ye all jump down my throat saying he can't use American law in the UK you are wrong, he can, he's american I believe, Russian involvement and we using EU law, under those circumstances any law from any of those countries are allowed into the British jurisdiction under the British 'Conflict of Law' act... Sorry lads but just trying to suss out what the *******'s up to. When a loser won't give up he got something up his sleeve however I still say he don't have the grounds to appeal, 'Victimisation' he could try it but that will only esure his certain imprisonment as we counter claim the same thing.. haaaaaaa

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think this really hits the nail on the head, its what the system they propose
CAN do that scares the sh*t out of me.

Its why it MUST be stopped NOW.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed, but the arguments at the moment, particularly on Tuesday, should centre on what they have done (BT trials and 121media history) and what they are planning to do (breach all the laws you have outlined etc).

What they could do needs to be laid out then left alone, as the thin end of the wedge.

I'm just saying concentrate on the things that we know are wrong now, rather than the things that may go wrong in the future. There are strong arguments about what we know now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will be focusing completely on the 2006/2007 trials whilst making sure to mention which laws would still be broken if they deployed the current model in the present day (Fraud Act 2006, RIPA, Copyright, DPA, PECR).

That doesn't mean man in the middle attacks or any other uses of the technology shouldn't be debated in this thread. I don't recall anyone saying they were going to raise the issue of Man in the Middle attacks at the public meeting.

Of course, if as we expect this is just another PR arena, I doubt I will be given the opportunity to ask any questions, because that would be a really stupid thing for them to do.

With regards the comment someone made about a QC, QCs don't scare me, I have dressed down more than one top legal professional in front of a Judge before now (barristers) and utterly embarrassed them in the process (much to the amusement of the presiding Judge).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok guys beat me up now, Kents boys are looking in and I just put them wise to the 'conflict of law act' ... Bang! That's me blowing my brains out... hehehe...

Bye the ways, wrong again, Phorm can read through your new bank cards, don't you get it yet, they are you as if in person, you sign over everything on trust to them?.

Don't worry it's over, Phorm are finished thanks to the good work the ICO did. Believe me they are done and dusted with no solid grounds for appeal.. They'll try of course but they'll fail in the end coz god is on our side, haaaaaaaaaa...

Hey anyone heard from Bt lately, the silence is killing me... lmfao...

---------- Post added at 23:53 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------

The pr stunt was set up prior to the revised ico page so don't feel intimidated by a bunch of losers and do not play into their evil hands.. I think Bent Kent's gonna use this stuff in his future pr battles in the US.. Play thick and constantly bombard him with questions why he hacked our computers? Hit him hard with what you know but lay off on what you might suspect. Make a mockery of that ******* once and for all.. Be firm about the fact he should be in prison instead of at large still trying his Russian brain washing skills on us... hehehe..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On the events page at 80/20 Thinking's website it does say "Panel discussion with audience". Of course, discussions can be misled by the panellists and the chair needs to be seen to be active against such things. Especially as I'm sure there will be people there who will report on any things transpiring that prevent proper discussion of the issues.

If it is just a PR stunt then it will be reported and exposed as such. Spin is always best countered with well presented facts.

I've personally bitchslapped a former Lord Mayor twice (he didn't learn the first time) and one very well known leader in his sector, as well as kicked quite a few backsides elsewhere.

There's plenty of ar5e kicking power here on the forum as we've already seen - titles mean nothing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No offence intended bobby, but you need to lay off the nuts. there is no such legislation in the UK called Conflicts of Law Act nor in Europe (that I can find). I am not sure where you are getting the information from but it would appear to be inaccurate.

Furthermore US Law does not set precedents in UK Law -or- European Law (only the High Court can do that) UK Law is normally determined through case law (where it exists).

Russia has nothing to do with this, the offence was committed on UK soil, the company has registered offices in the UK, therefore they fall under the jurisdiction of UK law, not Russian, not US and in most cases not EU. EU law does not supersede sovereign law. EU directives/conventions are ratified into existing UK law. Even in the case of incompatibility with European Convention on Human Rights a Judge (or Jury) cannot be forced to issue a judgement which is compatible; they can issue a judgement with the note that it is incompatible with the ECHR.

Maybe you could try explain exactly what you mean?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's interesting to see how the dynamics of the great Phorm PR machine has changed over the past couple of months. First, they were quite proactive, then they became increasingly reactive (to the point where it became an embarrassment both for us and them), until, in the end they were restricted to being web monitors, there just to report back to HQ on what the likes of us were saying. Their PR role has been replaced, Alex having taken over.

It's obvious that Phorm have either sacked their PR machine, or reduced it to one or two people who have been well and truly gagged.

To be honest, the gagging order is probably the first thing the Phorm management team have got right!

I wonder who will be more pleased to say goodbye to the marriage, Phorm, or their PR teams? Did Phorm sack their PR or did the PR walk out? I'd like to think it was the latter. . .

What's been happening over the past few months will be taught in business studies classes for years to come. After all, what better example will there ever be of how NOT to manage a product launch?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I do have the 'Conflict of Law' act somewhere in print upstairs and with respect if you have no knowledge of the law then keep your mouth shut, after all we are on the same side and I am lost for a reason to appeal the legal decisions already made against Phorm..
Phorm International, 18/20 international, registered offices in many countries, Uk law is prominent here but on legal request you can divert any British court into international law under 'conflict of laws act' .. Oh, it's civil law only pending.. Criminal conflict of law is normally down to parlimentary debate...

I know conflict of law because I used it to win a court case stretching from 1993 - 2001... 3 different courts by the way including the Royal...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With respect, I do know the law, I have studied it as a hobby and academically for many years, I am even in the process of writing my dissertation on the legal issues with the BT trials of Phorm in 2006/2007 and so far my analysis has been supported by the government and privacy watchdogs, so I can't be that far off the ball. Furthermore, I just put in an application to do a Masters of Law (LL.M) specialising in Privacy, Technology and related Human Rights.

I had a comprehensive analysis of PECR on paper almost an entire week before ICO even bothered to mention it.

As I said, there is no such law in the UK called "Conflict of Law Act" at least not according to OPSI. I was also unable to find such legislation within the EU either. Perhaps if you can provide a reference it might be easier for us to understand what you are talking about.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

rambling drivel!!! i think someone will have a hangover in the morning (if not you have a more serious problem)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't know if it has been already answered,but how long are the webwise bt/phorm/ spying/phishing trials going to last?

Is there some kind of limit to how long they can conduct their spying,as i'd expect there to be a limit in place,but with what i've read on the CFs , nothing would surprise me now.

fraser

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Then I suggest you politely and respectfully state your knowledge here rather than slate someone who has put in a lot of public work into this campaign.

Bring your knowledge to the table or remove yourself and your less than pleasant comments.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry Alexander if I was a bit blunt with you just now, really sorry believe me coz I know you're a good guy.. Please do not let me elaborate on what I said, they will use it against us... It's a real uk law that's rarely called upon because it's so god damned costly but when you got a £billion riding on it, hmmmmmmm, aweful thought... We're on the same side here so let's stick together... Oh! I had a thank you from the ICO this morning and I will reveal no more except to say, respect them and they will look after us..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[deleted by me]

[reported to the mods instead]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If there is some little known law in existence that is not listed in the relevant government databases, then I would request you do share it with us. Rest assured, if it exists Phorm will know about it (they have a QC) and will use it or would have used it by now.

So in the interests of preparing us with resources to deal with it, forget Phorm and just tell us please. I have put a great deal of time and effort (approx 16 hours a day for the past 2 months) into this issue and certainly don't want to release a very important article on the legal issues revolving around this case if it is missing some little known legislative get out of jail free card.

Just for reference, if you want to evaluate my legal understanding of this issue, please feel free to read the -almost- complete draft of my article which can be found here:

http://www.paladine.org.uk/phorm_paper.pdf

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex, is it worth submitting legal questions in advance so that on the day they can't say "we'll have to consult our legal team" etc etc. We need to force answers to legal questions on the day as the press will be there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The alternative is that they have split into their component parts and having a go on their own.

I wonder what the tea-boy is up to now?;)

Seriously, if we are getting trolls, that means the message is getting out.

If Phorm are changing their tactics, they are worried.:tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander you will not find it in a data base, you must refer to the law books. I will go up to my old case files tomorrow and get you the relevant act number but please believe me it is real uk law and it allows them to submit their laws in conflict of ours.. Makes sense of course if it's for the betterment but can be devastating to any legal uk case. There are about 4 solicitors in the UK specialising in conflict of law.. Please find it Alexander I don't want to rake through my old papers....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am sorry but I simply can't believe that. I can't turn round to a judge and say "Sorry your honour but you can't bust me for the marijuana offences I have been charged with because in multiple states in the US and several countries in Europe the amount I had in my possession was legal."

I apologise if I am offending you any way, but the law simply doesn't work that way. If you have a reference you really need to provide it as soon as possible.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

only thing i could find was this and it doesn't seem to have much to do with this sort of case as all of this is happening here

http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/curr...conflict.shtml

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jesus Christ, **** you Phorm, lecherous *******s, we have sussed you out finally and we know your puney defence, ha, well if conflict of laws is on the cards then be careful as there are certain clauses in the said act that could imprison you for longer than you might think so think twice before using it under uk law... haaaaa

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Phorm PR team simply realised that they were argueing against people that knew more than them. This is an unwinnable situation. The PR and marketing community made this clear in numerous blogs and publications. Hopefully the Tuesday talk won't have Kent repeating the usual garbage as he will be faced with an audience of informed users. I know that the Phorm/BT plan is that they can sell **** to people who know **** about the situation.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Correct it is not an Act of Parliament (as Bob suggested) and neither is it relevant in this issue. there is no conflict because the alleged offences occured in the UK, to UK People, by a company (or companies) with registered offices in the UK. This "conflict of law" craziness has no bearing on this issue whatsoever, there is absolutely no question of jurisdiction.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, I swear I tell no lies on this.. Don't worry ok, we won and they gotta figure out a way to get back.. Conflict of law only means what it literally means but you must bring this up at the begiining of a court action not after. It may come under jurisdiction law because that's what you start the court with. After that you get years of adjournments and it never seems to end but... big but.. If Phorm use that then they could carry on with their scam in conflict of the ICO report.. I might be wrong here but they must have a reason to not lay down and die....

---------- Post added at 01:05 ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 ----------

No no noooooooo... get real. its truly international here... tread carefully... Well anyways, we are prepared for it.. My advice is say little and trust you ICO ...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't trust ICO to tie their own shoelaces. This is the "authority" who have completely failed the British public on more issues than I can even count. This is the "authority" who can't even interpret the laws they are supposed to enforce.

DPA clearly states that operations on personal data is defined as processing (it states so explicitly in the Act) yet the ICO don't seem to be able to grasp that purely by reading the data and passing it to the anonymiser or "special machine" the data is being processed and therefore requires consent.

Furthermore, the ICO issue a Public Statement giving Phorm the green light, which they then have to withdraw/ammend less than a week later because their forgot to do their job and read Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, a directive which falls directly under their remit to enforce.

Furthermore, ICO have the power (as specified by the EU and the Queen) to investigate -all- matters of privacy and data protection in the UK yet they feel it is appropriate to pass the buck with regards RIPA to the Home Office.

Trust ICO? I would trust Kent before I trust ICO.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Remember this you guys, I know how the system works, I did the 8 years in 3 courts on an international case.. I lost the first one but, second one caved in under 'conflict of law' and the 3rd I really wanted to not use it but, ***** shame I did and killed it.. They owe me £330,000 in damages but I killed the ***** case off with conflict of law... crying my eyes out here, have some ***** sympathy... haaaaa

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bobby, where are you from, UK or US?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, Please put some faith into the ICO and play the diplomatic game. Careful now what we say, ok? Back your only friend in this as such, the other *******s would sell you out believe me.. Pay respect to the ones you have elected to represent you and you won't believe the respect you get in return... Please believe me, do not disrespect your own legal offices, if you do all is lost.. Bent Kent is the most polite crook in the world and he has a charm that we must defeat.. ... Bottom line is if you cannot trust the ICO then leave the country... Top line, stay here and help our ICO.. ok guy? .... As for pormo phormo pr looking in on this all I can say is you are ****** in the UK... HAAAAA

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, I've just read your article and think it's great. It's answered a number of questions I had about the relevant laws.

Earlier today I e-mailed both ICO and the Home Office to find out what the nature of the advice they had given Phorm was (though I doubt they'll actually tell me - it's not like I pay their wages or anything ;)). I also raised with them the issue of web hosts opting out as that seems to have been avoided by Phorm and BT so far. I had come to the same conclusions as you regarding the Copyright Designs and Patents Act with regards to publishing a derivative work, and likened it to making a copy of the Times, Hansard, etc adding a load of adverts and then passing it on (I assume they will understand that).

Has anyone heard anything from Phorm, ISPs, ICO or Home Office about the rights of web hosts beyond the implied consent argument (FTR I explicitly do NOT consent and shall be forwarding the details of my sites to the relevant parties)?

As I am partly responsible for a commercial site (children's furniture), I would not be happy if, as a result of searching for children's furniture someone visited our site and was presented with a load of adverts for other manufacturers / resellers seemingly advertising on our site.

Thanks again to Alexander for his (I'd say tireless, but I guess he's tired) great work.

Forgot to mention - I actually asked Phorm about the opt-out options for web hosts, but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyways you guys, you do not have to go to the Phorm pr stunt because Phorm/Bt are defeated in the UK.. Winners do not accept invitations to a pr promotion in respect of the losers... Now grow up lads and back out of this pr thing, he might use it as a protest against the ICO.. BE WARNED. Give him no audience that his arrogance oh so craves, back away from him, he's the loser ffs....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A lot of people have been wondering what Kent has up his sleeve for Tuesday. Personally, I don't think he has anything new. Time will tell, but I get the feeling that he has total blind faith in his product, that's all. He is right, everyone else is wrong. And that is also the case when it comes to the law, his interpretation is the correct one.

He's already been quoted as saying that he was totally mystified as to why there has been such a backlash, and I can accept that as it's obvious they had not planned for such a response from us, despite the interim 80/20 thinking report giving him advanced warning.

Interception of data? impersonating websites? What's that got to do with the price of cheese? The fact is, as he keeps on telling us, Phorm doesn't store any personal data, it respects privacy, it embraces privacy. THAT's what's important. . . . .

Roll on Tuesday . . .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander I think you will agree the loser is craving our attention... Just let me play his ***** game, I'll always be a step ahead but, grrrr, if only I had his money, hehehe..

---------- Post added at 01:50 ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 ----------

Ok we hark on about privacy but are Phorm trying to tell us we have no online privacy unless we sign over our parents ashs to them, emmmmmm, maybe but include the card number plz, ooops! sorry we don't need your credit card number as it's up on our hd wide screen in our office right now, thank you...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't know how big Marketing Week is in the advertising sector, but if it's widely read, this is good.


http://www.marketingweek.co.uk/cgi-b...=258&h=262&f=3

"Prior to the ICO ruling, Phorm was expecting to operate on the basis that all customers of an internet service provider were enrolled and users would actively have to opt-out."

And that's how they must have been pushing it to potential advertisers.

________________________________

"Marketing Week is the UK's leading magazine for professionals working in marketing, marketing services and media."

For what it's worth in the 'about us' bit. The Phorm story is linked on the front page at the moment though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Why are you trying so hard to dissuade everyone from attending the meeting?I smell something fishy.:erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander is delving into our weird and wonderful laws right this moment, stop, you will go mad studying conflicts of law ... Trust me Alexander nobody goes there unless you got a good 5mil starters... Please believe me you will only defeat guys like Bent Kent via higher office, let them do the work, we are the victims in this scam...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have to say I agree, I'm smelling a rat......

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Earlier today I e-mailed both ICO and the Home Office to find out what the nature of the advice they had given Phorm was (though I doubt they'll actually tell me - it's not like I pay their wages or anything ). I also raised with them the issue of web hosts opting out as that seems to have been avoided by Phorm and BT so far. I had come to the same conclusions as you regarding the Copyright Designs and Patents Act with regards to publishing a derivative work, and likened it to making a copy of the Times, Hansard, etc adding a load of adverts and then passing it on (I assume they will understand that).

Take your time they will respond, they responded to me online this morning I believe or maybe just a million to one coincidence plus I got a lovely thank you notice.. C'mon, who's your real friend here, ICO or ******s online?

---------- Post added at 02:09 ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 ----------

Rob we are trying, sorry, bad words seem to be a way of life though...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

'We' - just how many of you are there? There seems to be a big change in style here compared to previous posts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Having re-read some of the previously mentioned articles it seems that sites will not have ads thrust upon them unless they subscribe to OIX. My mistake (I hope). I still don't want them trawling my sites though.